Student Pay! [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

ILS 119.5

5th Feb 2004, 01:48

What if you were only getting 10K per annum. Would you still do it? Think of the poor old university students who have to pay for themselves and end up in debt at the end of their course. Even if you do not validate at least you will have been paid. In my day (as an ex ATSA) we got paid expenses which actually increased our salary, even though we did not get unsocial hours or shift liability payment, we were better off. This might of changed now. To be frank, take whatever salary they give, work hard, pass the exams amd validate. Then you can moan and make criticisms of the system. I paid for my own ATPL albeit on an ATCO's salary at the time and have now doubled my salary. Thinking back, I would have dome the cadetship for free as my dream was always to work in aviation either flying or ATC, fortunately done both through ambition and tenacity. I wish you all the best, but watch the attitude when you get to Swanwick. Times have changed and to chop someone is quite easy. Do not p**s anybody off.

alfie1999

5th Feb 2004, 02:21

Guys,
Maybe you're being a little harsh. If candidates have submitted applications on the basis of advertised rates of pay then I feel NATS should act in good faith and make the new rates of pay valid from aplications entered from this point onwards. The 'love of the job' line could be taken to a conclusion that leads to working for nothing...and I could probably find a thread not too far from here.....

Gonzo

5th Feb 2004, 02:46

alfie1999,

I think the tone of the first sentence of the post was the thing that riled a few of us:

Lol well if you were good enough you wouldn't have to pay would you!

WRT the decrease in salary; yes, I can see why one might be put out, but let's be honest, anyone who doesn't have, in writing, the payscale they'll be on before joining the company (ie. when you send back the 'Yes, I'll accept the offer of emplyment' letter), only have themselves to blame. IIRC that same letter detailed the salary I'd be receiving. Up until that point there is no commitment on either side.

Chilli Monster

5th Feb 2004, 03:38

Kirstey Lol well if you were good enough you wouldn't have to pay would you! Not that it's any business of yours but I had to pay because of age and circumstance. The fact that I hold a licence with 3 valid ratings and exercise those privileges every day at work means I must be doing something right - so I think I've proved I'm "good enough".

All you've proved is an ability to shoot your mouth off without anything to back it up - I'd be very careful if I were you as you never know who'll be sat behind you one day (as others have said - if you get that far. Many haven't ;) )
And if I don't whine I wouldn't make a very good ATCO would I I really hope that was written in jest - if not then your career choice really is dubious

mr.777

5th Feb 2004, 04:14

Chilli Monster

"A little hardship",as you so quaintly put it,means a bit more than cutting down on the beers for me.I'm 30,with a mortgage to pay amongst other things.At the end of the day,I'm not fresh out of Uni,so £14.5k is ****** all to me pal when I currently get in excess of £30k.Besides,Ive done my time as a student and,ironically enough,am about to finish paying off my student loans.
When I applied OVER 2 YEARS AGO,I was given a salary structure and,having looked at it,my partner and I decided it would be struggle to start with but that we would manage somehow.When the salary drops £5k a "struggle" becomes "can't afford to pay the mortgage" time....the proposed salary won't even cover my outgoings,let alone pay for food.
To be honest,your attitude disappoints me.I've not slagged off any ATCOs in my post or denigrated the job itself.All I've done is state my financial position.I have plenty of friends doing ATPL,so I do not require a lecture on that front.This job is all I've ever wanted to do,hence the disappointment.
Furthermore,my course has just been put back again.As I have already handed my notice in to my current employers,I face the possibility of being unemployed for 2 months before starting on this lower wage scale.
At the end of the day I don't suppose you care about any of this because cutting the cost for trainees is paying for your pay rise.

777

Jerricho

5th Feb 2004, 04:19

Ah yes, Mr 777 the dream chaser.

While I wish you and all prospective TATC's all the best........

At the end of the day I don't suppose you care about any of this because cutting the cost for trainees is paying for your pay rise.

Do you really needed pointed out to you that this will be the same pay scale you will eventually be going on to on successful completion of your course. Geezus! Starting an us and them already!

mr.777

5th Feb 2004, 04:45

Jerricho,

Fair comment.Not starting and "us and them" thing at all.I having nothing but respect for you guys and the job you do...hopefully I'll be doing it myself.Like I said,just pointing out a few financial home truths (for me anyway).
I think the main thing I was trying to get across is that a lot of us have been messed around by HR...chasing a dream is one thing,but continually putting your life on hold is another.At the end of the day,we all have lives outside work and everyone's situation is different.Personally,I object to being called a "whinger" for commenting on this.
I fully intend to get down to the college,knuckle down and keep a low profile...I'm old enough to realise that rocking the boat is not advisable (not that I would anyway).
Apologies for any offence caused,this was not what I intended in my original post.

777

turn right heading

5th Feb 2004, 05:07

A few more answers to a couple of questions, then I'm going to get out of this one.

has the course been restructured yet, or is it still 18months? from Kirsty.

If you're lucky, generally there is a hold at some stage normally 2 to 3 months, however due to the new course restructuring there is a 6 month hold for the current aerodrome 1 course before starting Area. Thats all if you go through without failing anything.

And I think you'll find that the course has been re-structured (stand to be corrected), as incumbents are being streamed directly to either Approach or Area from Jerricho

I believe the restructure starts in Jan 2005 hence the six month hold mentioned above. There wont be a direct start Area course initially due to courses currently running.

All I'm really worried about with this pay matter is how many people are going to apply now coz no matter the love of the job or "dream chasers" ( I was one of them) money has to be considered. As I said in my first input to this discussion the money is great for those straight from school but people with families, homes or a well paid job have a lot more to consider now.

TRH

Chilli Monster

5th Feb 2004, 05:12

mr 777

Ok - some facts to answer your (in my case anyway) totally unjustified comments At the end of the day I don't suppose you care about any of this because cutting the cost for trainees is paying for your pay rise.

1 - I don't work for NATS, so I'm not paying for your 'shortfall'

2 - I was 34 when I did my courses, having been made redundant from the RAF (not quite the straight out of uni / no commitments persona).

3 - I was also getting divorced, and getting screwed in that department (ex-wife and two kids)

4 - I was risking my money with NO income

5 - On succesful completion of the course I didn't actually have a job - that was the next hurdle. (On succesful completion you will have one.)

So - before going in for my final sim session my thought was: "If I fail this I've got no money, no home, no career - in short - I'm screwed!" No pressure - much!

Care to change your assessment of me?

mr.777

5th Feb 2004, 05:30

I wasn't assesssing you but your comments....in view of which I would have thought that you could understand where I'm coming from.In the same way I didn't know of your personal situation,you know nothing about mine.Maybe I was being presumptious but you were as well.At the end of the day there was no need to call me a "whinger" for stating a few facts.Sorry if I offended you but in the last 2 days I've found out my training course has been put back again meaning I have no job for 2 months and my starting salary will not cover my major financial outgoings...this was the only point I was trying to make.Do you think that this acceptable practice by the HR dept of a major company?

777

Kirstey

5th Feb 2004, 05:32

CM,

to start I owe you an apology - there was no need for me to be an arse. Sorry!

However, I do object to you (and all the other ATCOs) patronising me and 777 a little. Why should I be happy with a 20% pay cut on what I was expecting? People 3 months ahead of me, doing the same course will earn 5k more than me. How fair is that? I'm not an urchin straight out of uni. I'm 28 very experienced and very good at what I do (no i'm not a lap dancer!) .. However, I'm not challeneged by it. Becoming an ATCO isn't a dream for me. It's a considered move into aviation, in order to give me a chance of a career I may enjoy. Money is still a big factor for me.

And as for knowing who is sat behind me.. well I have a parent who worked as an ATCO/SRG, so I know Exactly who may be sitting behind me!

So I won't back down from my whingeing. I feel very just in my whinge - and I may well reject my kind offer from NATS!

No reason to mouth of at you tho' chilli, so sorry again!

callyoushortly

5th Feb 2004, 05:47

Gonzo, Jerricho et al,

Aren't the figures quoted pretty much what we started on?? Didn't see many complaints there huh??

I accept that you guys are being held up in starting, but as Gonzo said, until you sign the scrap of paper, you're nothing to NATS and they pull the strings and can do what they like, including "drop" your wages

Gonzo

5th Feb 2004, 06:14

Cally,

Yep, that's what I was thinking :D

Aye, when I were a lad...........

So when are you going to change your location to that dismal industrial town where it always rains? :p

callyoushortly

5th Feb 2004, 06:20

Elementary my dear Gonzo....
not too distant future!!

Gonzo

5th Feb 2004, 06:24

So you'll be valid when our East Mids roommate arrives?

roger

5th Feb 2004, 06:27

Student pay isn't an issue.
If you don't like it, don't do it.

On a plus side, all the NATS staff that post here probably amount to 5% of the work force.

roger

callyoushortly

5th Feb 2004, 06:36

Fingers crossed Gonz ;)

Jerricho

5th Feb 2004, 16:43

I'm repeating myself from another thread here, but I feel this needs to be pointed out to some.

There are those of us about who haven't been with NATS as long as others, and can remember what it was like to go through the interview process. These "sacrifices" one or two here are bestowing on themselves as if they were the only one's ever to experience it. Guys of my less experienced "vintage" (Gonzo and I were on the same course) as Cally points out, were on different conditions to those in the college now...........so your argument Kirstey doesn't hold much there. We're not being patronising, just stating facts. Until you have that signed piece of paper in your hand, sorry. And if you're serious about being an ATCO for NATS (your lovely little comment about "rejecting the kind offer" kind of proves this), then you wouldn't be bitching and moaning about it on an internet forum, would you.

Yeah the whole process can be a little frustrating, but if it's what you want, all the best!!!

TrafficTraffic

5th Feb 2004, 20:10

...we were lucky if we got a lump of coal....and the Department of Aviation wanted to sell us all for scientific experiments...

You lot can have Mr777 - is this is the sort of attitude your HR selection panel is recruiting good luck

Barnaby the Bear

5th Feb 2004, 21:28

First of all, huge respect to anybody that has funded the training themselves. That takes huge Balls.
Kirstey, I do sympathise with you about pay being dropped etc. I won't say a word about your earlier comments. Everybody else has.
It might be worth finding out if you still get the accomodation allowance and the Council tax dispensation.
Every little will help.
But at the end of the day, if the pay is only £14k, and you do make it through the training. You could be like alot of us that can actually say they enjoy going to work.
How many of your mates can say that? It really is a good career.:ok:

ps. Good luck CATC. Looks like you have some future live ones here!:}

alfie1999

5th Feb 2004, 22:14

The thrust of this thread has been lost in the furore over a couple of (inappropriate) comments. If you have a family, mortgage etc etc and you've based your decision to apply on an advertised rate of pay which then is slashed from 19k to 14k just before you commence training then i think that person has every right to feel aggrieved.

Maybe it's a recruitment ploy by HR to ensure no 'mature' candidates apply.

5milesbaby

6th Feb 2004, 00:29

mr.777:

Do you think that this acceptable practice by the HR dept of a major company?

Yup, and get used to it if you going to be a NATS employee, at least they start just how they mean to go on. :ouch: :ouch:

I too started on £14k, had no money of my own, lots of debts, and many things to buy if I was even going to get to if not through the CATC door (a car for a start). I hadn't even considered if I could afford to up sticks and move 250 miles away from anyone I knew, I just knew I wanted the job and would accept what it gave me. I did know that if I succeeded that I would be then rewarded for my work.

I understand that its not easy for a family person or high earner to just give up everything and join ATC, but the ones that do are the ones that we want, they come with the right attitude and the right approach to make a good teamworker, therefore a great ATCO.

At least you know before you start that the pay is changing, I was already at the college when the current deal was pushed through. It meant that when we finished at the college, instead of going straight onto full ATCO pay (about 28k all in those days), I started on £19k and rose to £22k, and couldn't earn full ATCO pay even if I validated within 2 years (there are some that were faced with this problem).

The moral of the story? S :mad: e happens, still a damn fine wage for someone that gives a company NOTHING if they fail (costs for training? Not even worth a guess these days), and gets LOTS if they succeed. :8 :8

murphywnj

6th Feb 2004, 01:32

Not sure if this is a daft question or not but im a complete newbie, you mentioned that it will be £14.5k + allowances, what is classed as allowances.

Incidently whoever mentioned that it sounds great to those coming straight from school, im applying whilst in my final year of A-levels and I am not complaining at £14.5k whilst training!

mbwlewis

6th Feb 2004, 01:46

Dear All

Having read through this forum I think there are a few things that should be pointed out to all involved (both students and current ATCO's)

Firstly lets look at what is happening to the new recruit pay : down 5K to 14K - and yes, you still get the housing allowance of 100 pounds a week. The housing benefit can be written off because you will find it pretty hard to find a decent room for less than 100 pounds a week -
Which means that CATC students will now take home aprox 980.00 a month after tax & NI - what does that pay for?

Some people posting on this topic have a mortgage and bills etc - and I believe that they have a right to be very aggrived with NATS over this. I feel that the company should honor the 19K salary to all those that sat and passed their initial selection tests before the pay structure was agreed.

___________________________________________________

The second thing I want to start a discussion about is the "type" of person that NATS is going to attract for 14K.

Lets be brutally realistic - I don't believe anyone would leave a job paying in excess of 28K to work for NATS (no matter how big the "dream") It's not good common sense - in the 2 years of college/validation it is likely that in their current job they would receive 2 salary increases and possibly a promotion - so they would be closer to 33K + maybe a car/health plan?

So this means that NATS will be looking for either:

a.) those who are poorly paid but very intelligent?
b.) Less mature First jobbers - -

Are these the people that we want controlling our every more populated skys??? NATS need to secure a high quaity of candidates if they want to avoid a 99% drop-out rate at the college

Thoughts?
Mark

PS - still no news on my interview , but if I have to start on 14K then I could not financially afford it - and after waiting for 2 yrs, would be very upsetting to have to let the opportunity go :-(

millerman

6th Feb 2004, 02:11

Kirstey + 777,
Look on the bright side,those that are in the college on the old rates of pay will have to buy the beers!!
Seriously though,this is a very tricky subject and it can only be down to the individual to decide whether they can take the offer.That is what the offer is,it is up to you to decide if you can afford to put pen to paper.
When i started with Eurocontrol we were the first ab initio to take a wage cut,it went down from 18k(GBP) to 9k (approx)!That is not a lot in Luxembourg.The other courses bought us a lot of beer!(It has mostly been bought back since though).
All i can say looking back is that it was hard but nothing worthwhile is ever handed to you on a plate and i wouldn't change my career for anything (having previously worked as a surveyor before ATC).

alfie1999

6th Feb 2004, 02:35

I don't think anyone would argue that 14k is quite generous for someone who's, say, just left college with no commitments and isn't providing a productive return to NATS.

However, I think this move will remove a sizeable chunk of the recruitment 'pool' by making the initial salary so low as to dissuade older applicants from making a career switch. Surely few atsa's or RAF atco's will be able to bridge the financial gulf even if the will and enthusiam is there.

As an aside; if this is a calculated move by NATS to lower the age of applicants then this is a legitimate and, I suspect, very effective move.

turn right heading

6th Feb 2004, 02:52

I said I wouldn't comment anymore on this subject, but I will.

I'm a bit disappointed in some of the remarks from (I'm guessing) valid ATCO's who at one time were at the bottom of the ladder. Someone said something along the lines of" wasn't that the money we got when we went through?" - when was that exactly?

Yes, there's the allowances, but as mbwlewis said £100 won't get much these days. With the council tax just rocketing up in Bournemouth most of the B+B's are quoting a rise of 25% to cover it, that'll take the weekly well over £100. Its supposed to cover accommodation, food, pens, paper etc whilst at the college. Ofcourse the actual pay is just spending money really, but on what. For the mature people NATS are apparently looking for, most have other outgoings(mortgages, student loans etc) so do NATS want their students to be worrying over money as well as the course. I guess they could always get an evening job around their studying. Before we now it they'll be like proper students and not turning up for lectures:D

The sad thing is this job is brilliant, it is great to go to work and not many people can say that. Unfortunately the way things are going there won't be anyone coming along to take over and enjoy the same experiance. And if you don't believe me there's at least two people that have replied to this forum that are having to reconsider there future do to financial reasons - how many more are there? Coz one things for certain, less and less people are applying for this job.

Dan Dare

6th Feb 2004, 03:08

I think this sucks (excuse the Americanism). If you pay monkeys you get peanuts (excuse the proverb(ish)). Who, but the desperate will accept this appology of a salary especially with a 30ish percent probability of employment as an ATCO with NATS?

Does NATS really want to filter out all, but the desperate? Maybe it allows HR feel less incompetent...

When I started 12 years ago the cadetship payed as much as that (and even then it was only just sufficient to encourage me to join). The pay does eventually increase, but not more than an equivalently qualified person in most jobs outside NATS/ATC. I just hope that we are still able to recruit anyone but school kids (there is nothing wrong with school kids, some of the best cadets on my course were straight from school, but I'm positive that we all gain from a broad mix of experience and qualifications from the cadets).

[apologies for any offence or spelling mistakes to those easily offended]

055166k

6th Feb 2004, 03:53

There is no shortage of applicants for ATCO jobs. Maybe now we will get trainees attracted to the job by factors other than money. For the rest, the door is over there!

Gonzo

6th Feb 2004, 04:04

There are a few more of us immature first jobbers here than you think!

Allowances are 100 a week tax free for living expenses, and AFAIK expenses paid for one trip home a month, and any other directed travel.

Edit to say: I heard that the cost to NATS averaged out at 500k per student to train

niknak

6th Feb 2004, 04:06

NATS will not miss out if Kirsty and her pals throw their teddies out of the cot and decline the opportunity of getting the best training for the best job in the world.
What NATS will get is more applicants than they could ever shake a stick at, who are willing to accept that an employer is going to spend in the region of £250K on their training, not ask for a penny of it back, and give them a brilliant job which pays very well.

There are very few industries that will do this AND pay a living wage with tax free allowances which cover all your expenses whilst you are a trainee who may fail at any stage of the courses, thereby costing the employer a huge amount of money.

Like Chilli, I didnt get a cadetship, so I paid for all my own training, and I'll freely admit that it cost me a huge amount of cash and it nearly killed me.
That said, I don't begrudge anyone who gets into NATS and is successfull with the cadetship, well done and good luck to you, what I can't stomach is the whinging that is demonstrated on this site by petulant brats (young and old), who think the world owes them a living.

flower

6th Feb 2004, 04:21

I left a very well paid profession to train as an ATCO some years back now. My salary was reduced considerably, we didn't get paid living expenses

To get paid a salary whilst training in aviation is rare, OK its hard if you have based all your figures on the higher salary , but at least you are getting paid, not having to pay for expensive ratings, your medical etc unlike our colleagues who have had to finance themselves.
It is an excellent career, it is but hopefully a short time that you are at the college. ATC has always attracted younger students because they are quite frankly more likely to succeed.
Don't give up an excellent career because of initial shortfalls in salary. It was hard for me to work on a reduced salary but now I can say the shorterm sacrifice was well worth it.

mainecoon

6th Feb 2004, 05:20

flower you hit the nail on the cliche

you have to put up with hardship for most of the good things

but to those that have done don't slag hr too much they came through for me after bad illness(you know who you are cheers pal) so just hope they don't find who you are they may not be as helpfull as they could be

human nature and all that

alfie1999

6th Feb 2004, 05:40

If nats have determined that enough desirable candidates can be found who are willing to train for the new pay scale then they are absolutely correct in what they are doing.

Whether it is correct to retrospectively apply this new scale to applicants who may have families and mortgages, and consequently, may have to withdraw from training because they can no longer support those families is another matter.

For me the fairest solution would be to apply the new pay scales to all applicants from this point forward.

Out of interest, how do the older students with aviation experience stack up against the college leavers during training?

Jerricho

6th Feb 2004, 05:51

As an aside a well, other ATS providers around the world require their ab-initios to pay for their courses. And some are signing in students/trainees into a contract that won't allow them to leave the company without paying back an agreed training cost.

I'm not saying the college pay is great, but it's much better than our pilot bretheren.........some of the costs involved there astound me. And those of our ATCers who had to pay for their courses.

rodan

6th Feb 2004, 06:13

Is there any definite word on when and to whom this new scale will apply? Might be worth checking out before working up such a lather.

For what it's worth, I believe £14.5k + the tax free allowances and council tax exemption equate to a salary near the top of what a new university graduate could expect to earn in other careers.

5milesbaby

6th Feb 2004, 06:25

The new pay deal if voted in will be implimented with those students beginning courses in early April onwards. Anyone that has already started at the college will not be affected by the student pay change, but will find slight modifications to their potential scale once they graduate the college leading up to initial validation. This modifcation should not even be noticed by these students as it is very minor.

mr.777

6th Feb 2004, 07:14

Glad to see that some of you have actually bothered to read my first post and come to the same conclusion as me...for the rest,agree to disagree.
Those of you who have persisted in branding me a whinger and "a petulant brat who thinks the world owes them living",I can't even be arsed to dignify your opinions with an answer....in fact you've only made me more determined than ever to succeed.

777

Scott Voigt

6th Feb 2004, 10:05

It almost looks to me like the airline types in NATS are taking over the bean counting... Have you ever looked at what they pay the late night frieght drivers who are flying single engine, single pilot operations??? Then when they move UP they are paying mere peanuts to the first officers.... Looks like they are looking at treating y'all about the same for the chance to work in Aviation...

Good luck

Scott

Jerricho

6th Feb 2004, 15:32

Mr 777......so this will be the last time you bring this up then?

mr.777

6th Feb 2004, 16:13

Correctamundo:D
Although I never actually started the thread in the first place....

777

Jerricho

6th Feb 2004, 16:44

Seriously then........GO FOR IT!!!!! And best of luck! :ok:

mr.777

6th Feb 2004, 16:51

Thanks mate!
Glad this has ended amicably..was begining to wonder if I 'd get kneecapped on my first day at the college!
Gulity as charged of throwing my toys out the pram...had a few days to reflect on what was basically a knee-jerk reaction to getting bad news having arrived home after a 13hr flight and a marvellous holiday-you know how it is!
I have now seen the light.........:E
Hope to work with some of you guys....eventually

777.....signing off,subject closed (hopefully!)

eyeinthesky

6th Feb 2004, 21:09

I gave up a good job earning £40k 11 years ago to start at the College on £18k including allowances. Why? Because I wanted to be an Air Traffic Controller. That's called making a choice to do what interests you. If you're not prepared to take the rough with the not so rough then ATC is probably not for you.

Of course it's tough if you have a mortgage and so on to pay, but other people manage to clothe and feed their families on £14k for their whole life.

How many other industries (especially those relating to aviation) do you know where you will be paid a reasonable salary while a company spends its own money training you with no guarantee that you will make the grade? There are no bonding arrangements or payback if you fail. You either get through and move on the a well-paid ATCO salary or you say goodbye with no strings attached.

Compare this with Professional Pilot Training. £60k+ for an Integrated Course leading to a Frozen ATPL. There is no job guarantee even if you do make the standard, and you also have to fund your living expenses whilst you are earning nothing. Then you finish the course and have to persuade someone to employ you. In the mean time you may take up Flying Instructing (paying well below the NMW for the hours you put in) or another job whilst you wait. You have to pay for all your rating renewals (Instrument Rating £1000) to keep current. And maybe, just maybe, you will be lucky enough to get a job in the right hand seat of an airliner. You might get about £20k doing this. So why do people do it? Because it is their passion and what they want to do. It's not for the money, because you have a debt of upwards of £60k to pay off whether you get employed or not.

If you want to be an ATCO, you have to be prepared to put the effort in, and I'm afraid this includes taking Student Pay of £14.5k or whatever. If you stick at it and make the grade you could be on £35k+ in three years. Can't be bad, can it?

Seems to me, as someone has already said, that there are too many people out there who think the world owes them a living. If you decide you can't afford to live on the student salary then you have to make the choice between that and being an ATCO. Only you can make that choice, but don't demand that someone else subsidises you to make it all possible.

Lon More

6th Feb 2004, 21:41

So NATS is being dragged into the 21st century in another area.

Some years back, Eurocontrol realised that a lot of trainees were treating the training period as a well funded "gap year" then moving on to pastures new. Obvious cure, decrease the salary.

This was more than compensated for then by a re-structured career path, where process through the grades was more or less assured at stipulated intervals instead of the previous lottery. Admittedly this is now all up in the air again.

Those who had signed on already continued to receive the old, higher rate, newcomers got the lower rate. If you didn't like it, tough, we moved on to the next applicant. Eurocontrol's cachement area is considerably larger than NATS (thereby pemitting the earlier cut-off age, and whilst £14k mabe doesn't sound that much in the UK it is a hell of a lot to a Romanian goat herd - or for that matter, a UK student now faced with top up fees:sad:

Similarly the introduction of A and B scales by US airlines in the 1980's did not deter applicants there; if you really want the job, not the "glamour", you accept it
As niknak and others pointed out there are very few other jobs which can give so much satisfaction, both on a personal and financial level whilst still keeping your clothes on. If you are not prepared to accept the entry conditions then, "Goodbye, next contestant please ...."

Lon More

here since before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus was a Rigger

Off thread but maybe relevant, back when the Provost was still a primary training aircraft, was I really so stupid as to tell a 10 man selection board for Cranwell that I wanted to fly transports instead of fighters because I would get a better job when i left the RAF?

:uhoh:

alfie1999

6th Feb 2004, 21:47

eyeinthesky,
I think we're arguing at cross purposes; as far as I can see people are making two distinct points:

1. Being paid 14.5k+ allowances whilst under training is a good deal and students should consider themselves priviliged.

2. Some older applicants have calculated that mortgages can be financed and families just about supported on the advertised rates of pay when the forms were initially sent off. Those rates of pay have been slashed just before their courses starts leaving them in a potentially difficult position.

I would agree with both points of view. I don't think enthusiasm and commitment to atc are in question here; just financial realities.

weselfluren

6th Feb 2004, 22:18

alfie1999

Agreed on both points.

Hand on heart (to everyone) - how many of you out there would take a job, if after the interview you were told you could have it at %25 less pay than advertised?

Some people are talking about the real world on this thread, I doubt that does much good for people like myself (too many goes/too old:sad: ) or Mr.777 who has to pay a mortgage etc. out of thin air for the next three months.

The world owes you nothing in your journey through life, but it sure deals out a lot of crap along the way.

Also - those who are talking about "it's ok as pilots do so" should realise that the huge costs, no income for 2 years etc. put a lot of wannabes off that career. Not everyone has a sympathetic parent/bank manager. Also, pilots, as a whole, get paid a heck of a lot more (or at leas the pay ceiling is higher).

Just another example of the indifference to applicants and "tough ****e" attitude within NATS - as there's loads of applicants, so why worry??:ouch:
That attitude seems to run throughout the organisation (no pun intended:O ).
I hope most of you don't treat your women/fellas in the same way just because "there's plenty of fish in sea". Must be a lot of single/divorced NATS staff out there......

WF

eyeinthesky

7th Feb 2004, 00:06

Quote

Also, pilots, as a whole, get paid a heck of a lot more (or at leas the pay ceiling is higher).

Unquote

Err, with the exception perhaps of Big Airways, not entirely true. Take a look in the Wannabes forum or Terms and Endearment and you will see that rates of pay (especially for First Officers, which is what you are in effect when you leave CATC in ATC) are nowhere near those of a newly-validated ATCO. The ATCO hasn't run up a debt of £60k just for training and walks straight into a job after initial training.

Added to this is guaranteed progression up a salary scale based upon time in service not performance and a cost of living rise negotiated every year (and that's always fun to discuss, as another thread on this forum shows.. :p), and it's not a bad deal after the first few years.

As for the 25% reduction in 'promised' salary, then I can accept that this is a bit hard to take. But you have to draw a line somewhere and you are not actually employed by NATS until you start at the College. Anything before that is no more than an indication. There are also courses being put back to fit in better with the training requirements and avoid paying you to sit on your backside for 6 months awaiting further training. This saves the company a shed load of money and makes your long term future more secure.

As others have pointed out, by reducing the costs on student salaries the company is able to finance a better salary for valid ATCOs, of which you will hopefully be one one day. Surely it is better to improve a salary scheme which you will be on for maybe 40 years than it is to concentrate on the first 3 years?

My only advice is to bite the bullet, keep your head down (don't get recoursed because that prolongs your time on the T&D scale) and pass through CATC and on to your unit. Hopefully you will soon get onto live training and validate, then you will soon forget the 'pain' of the first few years.

aaaabbbbcccc1111

7th Feb 2004, 09:28

HI.

I have recently passed my interview. I do not want to be negative and I feel that a lot of disrespect towards ATCO has been shown.
I just find it shocking that I find out about this salary proposal on this site and not being told officially by Nats.
Again I am in a situation with living to my current income with a wife and kids. I already have an interview with my bank manager to find out how I am going to afford the drop in wages and now I am faced with an even bigger problem.

In the end it will all be worth it, obviously the biggest problem though is living expenses, with a big mortgage I will also need to rent somewhere in bournemouth. Can anyone give me a rough monthly figure of rent, as I will need the £100 pound a week they give me for mortgage. I would conside living in a caravan is that practical and how much??

cheers.

PPRuNe Radar

7th Feb 2004, 17:58

Can anyone tell me if this is part of the pay deal on which NATS ATCOs are being asked to vote ??

There is nothing mentioned on it in the Prospect recommendation paperwork, but there again as we have experienced from the pay regrading briefings, there does seem to be sparse knowledge amongst Prospect BEC members as to how exactly things have been worked out (transparently !!) so the missing information is perhaps understandable.

If it is part of the deal, then it strikes me as strange that a union would be seeking to cut the pay of any part of its potential membership and/or a part of the structure (ATCOs) which it represents.

Call me cynical, but it seems to be yet another example of 'stealing from the poor to feed the rich' which characterises the philosophy of this current proposal.

Gonzo

WRT the decrease in salary; yes, I can see why one might be put out, but let's be honest, anyone who doesn't have, in writing, the payscale they'll be on before joining the company (ie. when you send back the 'Yes, I'll accept the offer of emplyment' letter), only have themselves to blame. IIRC that same letter detailed the salary I'd be receiving. Up until that point there is no commitment on either side.

You make a fair point ... but as NATS has advertised the going rate in adverts in the press, etc, then they leave themselves open to action because of it. Suing NATS for the difference in pay because of the misleading adverts may be the way for future Students to make up the pay difference ;)

055166K

There is no shortage of applicants for ATCO jobs. Maybe now we will get trainees attracted to the job by factors other than money. For the rest, the door is over there!

A slight touch wide of the mark there. Whilst numerically there may be no shortage of applicants, there is a very real shortage of suitable candidates. The number of people who exist in the population who want to do the job for altruistic reasons is a drop in the ocean of the numbers of people who we need to get in to the training system and filling up our shortfalls. That's a fact of life.

So all those other candidates (who you so politely suggest don't bother to even apply) need to be attracted by something. Apart from money, what else is there ?? We certainly can't sell the job on the understanding caring workmates that they may find in NATS. Not judging by some of the posters on here anyway :p

niknak

What NATS will get is more applicants than they could ever shake a stick at, who are willing to accept that an employer is going to spend in the region of £250K on their training, not ask for a penny of it back, and give them a brilliant job which pays very well.

We don't get enough high calibre applicants at the moment. And I understand the number who apply each year is steadily falling. A few people getting frigged around by the system and deciding not to progress their application is hardly likely to be a major factor in turning that around is it ?? :ouch:

The NATS recruitment system is a bit of a mess as anyone looking in can see. It is unwieldy, takes far too long, and is uncommunicative and 'sterile' to the applicants. And it is not producing the right number of high quality bums on seats that we all require to stand still, yet alone provide the manpower for the future. Though it pains me to say it, we can't possibly be proud of it can we ?? Shouldn't we be looking to up our game in this area ? Perhaps even get Eurocontrol to do it for us ? As a Eurocontrol State, we pump a lot of Euros their way already so why not get some benefit from it ??

For anyone paying interest to NATS recruiting over the last 5 years, it has not been a great performance. I don't blame those involved in the process, nor those who work hard with little or no resource to try and make it work. I firmly blame the system that we have put in place. And it's time it was seriously looked at and revamped to make us a leader in ATC recruitment. (We're already aiming to be world leaders in Air Traffic Management - cos our Mission Statement says so !! :8 :} )

turn right heading

7th Feb 2004, 20:21

Further to the following:

What NATS will get is more applicants than they could ever shake a stick at, who are willing to accept that an employer is going to spend in the region of £250K on their training, not ask for a penny of it back, and give them a brilliant job which pays very well.

NATS obviously don't care about the money wasted on students as they seem to be happy to get rid of students who have passed Aerodrome but fail Area. Thats a real waste if you ask me - a year of training and around £100,000 per student. And a potentially valid AD controller

The (if you ask me) stupid reduction in pay for students really should have been brought in with anyone that gets excepted from now and not for people that have already been given dates to start on a pay scale that has been quoted to them.

At least this gives the new courses a heads up for how NATS changes student contarcts to suit them - 11 times my course had to resign their contracts.

5milesbaby

7th Feb 2004, 20:43

Radar, yes this is in the current Pay Deal we are having a ruck over - the slide was VERY briefly shown to us, only due to it being included in the presentation and the mouse clicks not going quickly enough!!

Wooks

8th Feb 2004, 18:37

Going back to the original subject of the thread... I'm one of the ones 3 months and £5k ahead. I, as I believe most TATCs feel sorry for those that have been messed around re start dates and now pay cuts. We were all brought together in one classroom and told about this last week. You wouldn't believe how loud 50 people gasping in shock horror can be.

It's bad news, but Kirstey, mr 777 and anyone else going through the process or even thinking of applying, if you can make it work in any way, it's well worth it. I'm only 5 weeks in and am enjoying it so much.

Right, enough from me, I've got a MET progress test tomorrow, looking forward to it:)

Wooks:ok:

ILS 119.5

9th Feb 2004, 18:21

My son was born 7 months before my cadetship started. I had a mortgage and had to take salary reduction. My wife and I discussed the situation and agreed that I should continue. 2nd child born during unit training. It would have been easy to remain as an ATSA. BUT we knew that in 2 or 3 years life would improve after a major sacrifice to improve my career and earnings. When I finished the course I was 5K in debt, after validation I was 9K in debt, after 15yrs totally debt free (also I paid for my ATPL) and earning more money than I could ever wish for. I had nothing at one time with CCJ's being threatened, but through hard work and living on the breadline it all worked out OK.
I think that if you really want to have a career as an ATCO or Pilot then the sacrifice is minimal. I understand that there may be certain worries regarding failing, but that is the risk.
My final statement is that, life is for living, enjoy it while you can, live for your family and ensure they have the best (as well as yourself). That's what I'm doing.
ILS

alfie1999

9th Feb 2004, 19:29

ILS 119.5,
There have been a number of moving stories about people who've made sacrifices and put NATS before family; I admire your bravery and single mindedness if nothing else.
What maybe you're not appreciating is that a good number of candidates will put their family first. Consequently if they've applied believing that their family can only realistically be supported on wage X then finding a matter of weeks before they commence employment that their wage has been slashed is going to cause alot of problems.
This isn't about martyrdom to the pursuit of a career in ATC; nor is it about grasping students -alot of mature canditates are taking hefty pay cuts- it's about the realities of feeding and housing your family.
No applicant can complain about the new wage structure if they apply in full knowledge of it; it's the last minute change after many will have burnt their employment bridges that is causing the angst.

Gonzo

10th Feb 2004, 05:09

Ok, I've spoken to three current student ATCOs now at the College, and they all say that this pay cut is being presented as a done deal. If this is all tied in with the new pay deal (I assume it is, I've not read anything official either way to be honest), then the deal is very far from done!

So people saying things like:
then finding a matter of weeks before they commence employment that their wage has been slashed is going to cause alot of problems

Should really be saying "If the pay deal is voted in......(and Lord only knows when we'll be ballotted!)"

Sorry if it seems pedantic, but those going through the process right now might assume that it's all been settled!

Something I've just noticed, alfie1999....

You say....
No applicant can complain about the new wage structure if they apply in full knowledge of it; it's the last minute change after many will have burnt their employment bridges that is causing the angst.

So people are handing in notices, etc, before they've even heard if they'll be accepted on to a course?

Is this common?

garthy

10th Feb 2004, 17:02

Whilst the pay cut is an issue for discussion, I guess the response has to be when (or if) it goes ahead, then it needs to be lived with.
With regards the £100 tax free living allowance each month, could someone who has been there and done that give me some advice.
I've seen a lot of posts talking about how much it costs to live in a B&B in Bournemouth, and that the £100 won't cut it. Do you only get this £100 if you stay in a B&B? Mrs G and and I were planning to rent a flat for the time, as she would be working too. If you don't get the cash, then thats a serious blow to me. Any news would help me to develop my plans.
PS. I'm sorry to those whose plans are not going to be as they expected, looks like the holidays and luxuries are going to have to be cut back for me, if I make it. Sorry Mrs G, no Valentines pressie this year!!!:}

Roger Dodge

10th Feb 2004, 17:28

Unless things have changed, you get the £100 a month as long as it is receipted. You choose how you want to live, whether it be in a B&B, rent a house/flat, even have a mortgage!!, you'll still get the money!!

Unless it's changed!!:p

garthy

10th Feb 2004, 23:18

Cheers Roger,
that's a relief. My mum and dad live in Bournemouth, wonder if the old lady would write a receipt?;)
Continued good luck to all, now off to buy that Valentine's pressie for Mrs G

fly bhoy

11th Feb 2004, 03:55

Garthy

With regards the £100 tax free living allowance each month, could someone who has been there and done that give me some advice.

You still get the £100 a week allowance and its not receipted, nor does it apply to people only living in B&B's either. And you also get the entire £100, not just an amount up to the rent you put in for. I'm currently renting a flat with others on my course and the £100 a week more than covers monthly rent and bills so on two incomes you should be fine (although the booze bill is considerably higher:ok: :yuk: :ok: !!!)

And Gonzo

those going through the process right now might assume that it's all been settled!

I was in the meeting where it was announced to the current students a couple of weeks ago and it was put to us that this was definitely cut and dried and will definitely come into effect as from the next intake (which i'm sure they've said is the july-ish intake). There was also no mention of it being part of the new pay deal, nor was there any mention that it may not come to pass if the new deal isn't approved. I may be wrong but as far as I know its definitely happening.

FB

The Euronator

11th Feb 2004, 05:44

To all you NATS ATC's.

Be very very careful to what you vote upon...if you sell out the future trainees of today ...the future MEMBERS of tomorrow will get their revenge..trust me it has happened in organisations before..namely AUS..ask a couple of the guys from there the division in the ranks that selling out the new guys has caused.

rodan

11th Feb 2004, 05:56

My mum and dad live in Bournemouth, wonder if the old lady would write a receipt?

Not such a daft idea, actually. When I was at CATC we all tried to go on OJT placements near where our folks lived so we could stay with them. Get them to write you a receipt for contribution to household expenses/rent/whatever and claim the £100 as usual. Most students had their own receipt book that you can buy from a stationers for just this purpose.

PPRuNe Radar

11th Feb 2004, 08:00

To all you NATS ATC's.

Be very very careful to what you vote upon...if you sell out the future trainees of today ...the future MEMBERS of tomorrow will get their revenge..

Whilst I would not place much faith in this comment, I do feel strongly that this part of the 'deal' has been extremely well hidden from members. It appears nowhere in any paperwork, staff notice, or communique from EITHER the management or the union. Something to be swept under the carpet and not to be worried about.

Which rings the alarm bells in my mind as to what other 'stitch ups' have been hidden from the members as part of this deal. As well as worrying about the terms and conditions of our future students.

Anyone from Prospect or management care to enlighten us as to why this has never been publicly mentioned ?? Are students part of the ATCO structure (and therefore colleagues) or aren't they ??

(A 20% reduction in the Training wage bill appears in a presentation which is supposed to be shown to troops, but with discretion as to which slides should be shown to 'sell it to the staff'. Guess this is part of the money used to finance those of us already in the system .... as part of the 'transparent' deal.)

Starting to stink more than Grimsby harbour on a summers day during a dockers strike :)

Gonzo

11th Feb 2004, 08:16

I wonder how many students currently at the college are members? My course had a one hour talk by the unit rep, and yet only two of us joined whilst at the college. The rest joined when they got to units. If this proportion is still representative, perhaps the fact that there are not many student members means there's nobody to ask questions?

tobzalp

11th Feb 2004, 08:37

Pprune Radar I hate to rain on your dismissal of Euro's statement but this is indeed the case. Lots of pissed off people who got screwed in 96/97 and some who continue to get screwed today. There is a very distinct feeling on this. (just to let you know I am not one of the screwed so I have nothing to gain)

Our latest restructure was an attempt at keeping the current employees happy with 2.5% each 6 months of pay rise for 3 years and HALVING yes HALVING the trainees and field training salaries. Plus there are no training allowances like there used to be.

Look what happened at Cathay Pacific A scalers debacle a few years ago. That is a case in point.

Don't screw the newbies just for your own good. It will come back to bite.

PPRuNe Radar

11th Feb 2004, 09:11

tobzalp,

I totally agree that we should all look after everyone, no matter where they lie in the scheme of things. That's been my thrust all along.

What I fail to see is how anyone screwed in the past has got their revenge. Give me some examples ... at least in NATS. I don't see any cases where the junior blokes (and blokettes) have been able to screw anyone higher up the chain.

Unless our readers know different ???

The Euronator

11th Feb 2004, 13:49

Pprune Radar,

It won't be one person screwing you it will be a majority of the membership and it won't be immediately. Give it 5 or 10 years and the new members will eventually outweigh the old members ( who will have voted this in ) this is the point that I am trying to get out..it won't happen overnight but it will happen. It will cause division in the ranks and it will be what NATS Management is aiming for ie. Divide and Conquer.

PPRuNe Radar

11th Feb 2004, 18:28

Divide and conquer it most certainly is.

The problem with your theory is that after 5 or 10 years in the job the current batch of shafted people will have, in all probability, become greedy cynical ATCOs like the rest of us .... and will be shafting the next generation below them. :} :p :O

Sad fact of life but we've seen it already a few times in NATS history !!

Roger Dodge

11th Feb 2004, 18:32

Unfortunately I do not know enough about the following point, although I'm sure somebody will put me right.

Will the new deal mean that when you validate, you start earning an ATCO's wage immediately??

If so, then that surely has to be a good option. That way you will be rewarded for validating and not, as is the current scheme, stuck on a lower pay scale for months on end whilst you operate on your licence.

I would have taken £14,000 to train, knowing that the day I validated I would go onto the 'grown ups' pay scale.

MaydayMaydayMayday!

12th Feb 2004, 08:58

Further to previous comments I recognise that new recruits should be grateful for the opportunity to pursue a career in ATC regardless of the salary, however I have two major concerns:

1- Using myself as an example, I do not believe it is fair to implement the salary change retrospectively, when I and many others have been waiting for this job for 2 years and have planned and budgeted for a salary of 19k. Many of us will, for whatever reason, not be able to take the cut (or our bank managers won't let us!) The NATS website is advertising the next available course as March 2005 for those currently applying. Surely it would not be unreasonable (although perhaps more costly for NATS) to put off the salary change until then, when applicants are fully aware of the employment conditions.

2- I would not mind if it was just the training salary that was revised, however, it seems that even after training we may earn less than those who joined the company a few months earlier. I received a letter from NATS stating that my starting salary is now £14.4k, but also that on completion of training it will be in the range of £18.7 - £21.5 depending on location, plus unsociable hours payment of £4836. This is in stark contrast to the figure of £27.9k after completion of training, which I was given when I applied in 2002!

In addition, on obtaining 1st validation the salary will be £23.8 - £27.4k depending on location, plus unsociable working hours payment of £4836. Again, I was previously informed that the salary at this point would be £35/38k.

As I mentioned earlier, it would be fine if we just had to work hard and be careful with money for a couple of years, after which we would then be on the same pay scale as everyone else. However, it looks as though we may be playing salary catch up further into our careers. I wonder how long it will be before we're on an even keel with our colleagues or will they also be held back?

callyoushortly

12th Feb 2004, 18:10

Mayday,

I feel compelled to question the salaries you quote....
You applied in 2002 and were quoted a salary of 35/38k on completion of first validation... I guess you were always doomed then!
I got my first validation in 1999, and was on a figure by no means comparable to that, in fact after 6 years in the company I'm just about reaching that level now!!
I know that the ATCO2's earn more than I, but I'm still pretty sure that 35-38k wouldn't even be a first validation salary for them!
I do, however, stand to be corrected!

Gonzo

12th Feb 2004, 18:29

Cally, I'm with you. I thought the figures Mayday quoted were quite ambitious!

Jerricho

12th Feb 2004, 19:01

In addition, on obtaining 1st validation the salary will be £23.8 - £27.4k depending on location, plus unsociable working hours payment of £4836. Again, I was previously informed that the salary at this point would be £35/38k.

It all get's a little complicated (and if I've got it wrong feel free to yell at me!).On your completion of training and validation, you may not immediately go on to the "grown up" ATCO scale (currently ATCO2 or ATCO3 depending upon unit). This Training and Development (T&D) scale exists (we'll not go into the rights and wrongs of it, will we Roger Dodge!! ;) ) to allow a "uniformity" amongst a whole course (where as it stands, the Area side of a course is 6 months longer). As it stands, you can have people from one course validate at a Tower unit while others are just starting their simulation courses at the Centres. The T&D scale is based on a 2 year "joint graduation date" of your course (the date the area side of your course finishes and you all merrily celebrate your graduation together).

It does leave itself open to a lot of criticism (especially if you validate within the 2 years and not getting paid "grown up" salary!), but from memory those numbers Mayday quotes sound like the "top" of the existing T&D scale and the bottom of the existing ATCO2 scale.

Of course, now the college is talking about direct streaming into Area or Approach, who knows what's going to happen!??!?!

PPRuNe Radar

12th Feb 2004, 19:54

Cally, I'm with you. I thought the figures Mayday quoted were quite ambitious!

Maybe they were quoting a LACC scale with lots of AAVAs thrown in ?? ;)

Jerricho

12th Feb 2004, 19:58

That's not like you Boss Radar" :p

mr.777

12th Feb 2004, 23:05

Mayday is right guys...I am looking at the bit of paper with the aforementioned figures as we speak.

777

Jerricho

12th Feb 2004, 23:13

Ummmmm.....am I talking to myself here?

Again, I was previously informed that the salary at this point would be £35/38k.

When you go from the Training and Development scale to the ATCO scale!! If it takes you more than 2 years to validate (for whatever reason) then you will go straight onto that scale.

Ask Rodger Dodge......this is his favorite topic :p .

alfie1999

13th Feb 2004, 00:43

I'm not sure how the pay structure is organised for the first 2-3 years (it obviously isn't how it's shown on the sheet that comes with the recruitment pack). Anyone care to fill in the following gaps assuming the student has been streamed area:

CATC: 14.5k +5k allowance 18 months?
Training Swanwick: ???? ????? ?????
Validation: ???? ????? ?????
Next pay rise: ???? ????? ?????

Once validated what sort of overtime is available? Confused of Milton Keynes.

MaydayMaydayMayday!

13th Feb 2004, 18:15

Hope this helps- I have the terms and conditions of employment as of October 2002 in black and white in front of me. This is a direct quote:

“….After completion of the initial 74 weeks training, on appointment as an Air Traffic Controller (T&D) £27,952 rising to £31,734. On appointment as an ATCO £35,828/£38,061 (depending on unit) rising to £49,948 with prospects to over £65,111 inclusive of shift pay….”

Alfie 1999 - Regarding the revised pay scales here is another direct quote as of February 2004:

“….On completion of your college training, your salary will be in the range of £18,718 - £21,499 depending on location plus unsociable hours payment of £4836. On obtaining 1st validation your salary will rise again to between £23,823 - £27,363 depending on location plus unsociable hours payment of £4836.”

The discrepancies are obvious, but please can anyone shed some light on how long it’ll be before our salaries catch up? In addition, does anyone know whether earlier candidates currently going through training will also be affected by these reduced figures after their training?

flower

13th Feb 2004, 19:00

I'm no expert but I would have thought married students with a family to support will be entitled to income support should this pay deal go through.
Not exactly something we should be proud of.

alfie1999

15th Feb 2004, 05:17

So is this revised student pay structure stand-alone or will it only be implemented on acceptance of the wider deal for atco's?

Roger Dodge

15th Feb 2004, 16:21

Jerricho

I'm not rising to your bait!!!! :p :p ;)

cb9002

16th Feb 2004, 06:54

OK... a few posts back someone asked for concrete information... anyone got any yet:

Can anyone confirm for definite whether this pay cut IS happening beginning April 2004, or whether it MIGHT happen. Has Prospect voted on it as part of the wider pay deal?

Thanks!

AREA52

16th Feb 2004, 19:36

As far as a ballot goes, it is currently in progress and will close beginning of March.

Basically, if it is voted in, the cadetship salary will reduce with effect from 1st April. I am not absolutely sure about whether or not this will apply to people who have already had an offer from NATS and start after April, or whether it will just be for new applicants from that date? I will however try to find out and post a message here in the next few days if I can.

The post college T & D scale will remain as it currently is and will increase in line with the basic pay award.

Anyone who is on the V scale (first validation) or main ATCO scale will receive the additional working practices increases appropriate to that unit. The V scale only applies until two years after your posting date to that unit, then you will go onto the main ATCO scale.

Benefits in the long term for the college students, but not for the first 18 months or so, but then again that depends on where your coming from!

Hope this clarifies!

Oh, apologies if I have covered anything already mentioned as I did not have a chance to trawl through the whole thread.

Gonzo

16th Feb 2004, 22:50

If the pay deal is voted in, the £14.5k base salary + £100 a week tax free payment will start on the July 04 course, so we were told today.

cb9002

17th Feb 2004, 17:32

Thanks guys, both of you.

alfie1999

18th Feb 2004, 01:32

Gonzo,
Last time I spoke to HR they told me there was a course starting 07 June; how up to date is your July?

Gonzo

18th Feb 2004, 01:53

Well, it's Course no.132. I was told that starts in July. :confused:

tired-flyboy

18th Feb 2004, 07:17

:{ :{ Bloody HELL :{ :{

having just received the news (applied '02, test 1 '03, test 2 '04) that i had passed all the tests, i was thinking that i could throw back my student days and finally say to the bank manager, don't worry i'll be able to pay back my CDL no prob, NATS have gone and changed the pay figures (go figure).

As an ex-mil controller, (not a bad wage) there was i was thinking.......(that was my mistake)...at last a decent salary to keep my lovely women in the manner she has become accustomed to!!!

ANYWAY

Can somebody give me accurate living figures for Bournemouth please. OK i don't start till 05 (almost a year) but the bank may come a calling before then and it would be nice to tell the 'friendly' manager how i'll cope.

:*

By the way the person who said that £14.5K is better than some gradutes needs to take a look as most graduate salaries are normally in the range £18k - 22k.

Just another rant, are NATS not on shaky ground by offering jobs at a reduced salary without first sending the aforementioned notice of change to applicants already in the system????

rodan

18th Feb 2004, 07:37

By the way the person who said that £14.5K is better than some gradutes needs to take a look as most graduate salaries are normally in the range £18k - 22k.

£14.5k basic.

£100 p/w tax free ---> £5.2k

Tax + NI on £100 p/w ---> £5.2k x 1.333* = £6.9k

£14.5k + £6.9k = £21.4k equivalent salary. QED.

And you can add tax free expenses for a trip home every month regardless of whether you actually make said trip.

*A rough calculation that is normally quite accurate for basic rate tax band.

Just another rant, are NATS not on shaky ground by offering jobs at a reduced salary without first sending the aforementioned notice of change to applicants already in the system????

They aren't. Not yet, anyway. The pay deal will have to be accepted first, I would imagine they will break the bad news to you then.

055166k

19th Feb 2004, 15:17

There is no requirement for a controller to be a graduate. Why do you assume that the pay should equate to that of a graduate in other jobs? My experience with "graduate" trainees is that quite a few fell into the job as third or fourth choice......and have little or no real "hunger-to-control" apart from the money. They expect to be employed by NATS for life with rock-solid job security. They don't actually expect to control aircraft for more than 3 or four years [ after 2 years of unit training to first validation] before advancement up the ladder. The offices are full of people on controller pay who haven't spoken to an aeroplane in recorded history......I judge the person rather than the qualifications, and if you just happen to have a degree then good for you....but don't expect an inflated salary if you are under-selling yourself.

Kirstey

19th Feb 2004, 17:01

055166k - we expect an inflated salary becasue we're doing a really tough job with a HUGE amount of resposibility. You'll be able to tell me I'm sure, but roughly how many lives a shift does, say, an EGLL director have under their watchful eye? on top of that there are millions of people underneath any potential crash to be taken into consideration!

It's strikes me as a helluva job to take on.. No reason for the pay not to reflect that in my opinion!

anyway after starting this, it's gratifying to see that some people have sympathy with my issues, and Chilli's rant was a reasonably isolated one.

So just because it's not a graduate post and a degree is no pointer to aptitude the nature of the job is a thousand times harder than most other graduate positions. For example - if been at work for an hour! I'm off for a cup of tea and a fag.. you can't do that at the drop of a hat at LACC I'm sure!

Gonzo

19th Feb 2004, 18:08

Kirstey,

Bear in mind that this drop in pay at the college means that you'll be earning appreciably more when you are in that position of responsibility.

tired-flyboy

19th Feb 2004, 19:53

055166K (ex-mil per chance????)

Your correct a degree is not a requirement to be controller, but i think you may have missed the point.

What was said is that a gradute could resonably expect to earn £18K in a trainee program, but most are realistic that this does not always happen!!!!

Rodan -

using your figures and calculation method cadets currently on the course will be earning the equivalent of £26.4K -

What was your point??? :ugh: we still lose out!

but lets have a comparison using Kirsty's point - a train driver will get paid more than a trainee (OJT) controller - go figure that one out - comments anybody????

Gonzo

19th Feb 2004, 20:12

a train driver will get paid more than a trainee (OJT) controller - go figure that one out - comments

Is that a fair comparison?

What about a trainee train driver?

I know that it's not pleasant to be told that your salary won't be as high as you thought, especially for those with families and other considerations, but if this deal does go through, then once you get to the position of having that responsibility, ie. first validation, you're salary will start higher and increase at a much quicker rate than currently.

I think rodan's point was to illustrate that if the new pay deal gets agreed, then students won't be on £14.5k as some people are claiming, but equivalent of £21.4k.

alfie1999

19th Feb 2004, 20:49

Gonzo,
It's getting to the position of responsibility that is going to be the problem for many. A good number of older applicants will be 'priced-out' of a career switch into ATC ; I don't have a problem with that if NATS have decided they need more productive time out of their employees. My only issue has been one of 'good faith'; NATS should honour the terms advertised over the couple of years (and still showing now).

Some will argue that NATS owe applicants nothing until they're thru the front door but i'm not sure thats a fair argument in this day and age.

Not Long Now

20th Feb 2004, 00:59

Yes we're responsible for a lot of lives, but let's not do train drivers down. There's not much chance of a stupid idiot jumping out infront of our radar and turning to jam all over the screen before our very eyes...
Train drivers are welcome to what ever they can get.

Stupendous Man

20th Feb 2004, 12:34

To those of you that have applied and been accepted for a course have any of you signed a contract with NATS?

If not then I would say you don't really have a leg to stand on. I appreciate the fact that the goal posts have been shifted somewhat - but until you have signed that bit of paper NATS owes you nothing.

The reason that a train driver gets paid more than a student atco is because the train driver has passed all his train driving courses and been checked out on his train! He is generating an income for the company. I know it seems quite ruthless - but until you are working at a unit you aren't really generating any cash.

Not an ideal situation to be in - but if you can stick it out for the few years at the start and put in the hard work required the rewards are more than worth it. :ok:

weselfluren

20th Feb 2004, 15:38

but until you have signed that bit of paper NATS owes you nothing

Quite true, but do the following words mean nothing to the company?

Trust
Faith
Honesty
Understanding

Yes, there are a lot of candidates per post (supposedly) so they wouldn't be up the creek without the paddle if one or two people turned them down. If it was a job in hr/management/ops which was a one person ad, they couldn't advertise a job at one salary, then offer it at a lesser post interview. They simply wouldn't get the candidate they thought they were.

Trainees will become bitter even before they are allowed to visit catc. Possibly even more so than yours truly.....:ouch:

This attitude of "tough luck, take it or leave it" stinks. Not promoting company loyalty towards the student, so I doubt there'll be much going the other way.

eyeinthesky

21st Feb 2004, 18:48

Don't forget that, unlike the train driver in your analogy, the trainee (OJT) controller has NO ultimate responsibility for the safety of the passengers or the people on the ground. That lies with the OJTI, on whose licence you are operating, and who is paid a little extra (another can of worms there :p ) for taking on that responsibility.

Once you successfully validate, THEN you take on the responsibility, and THEN you get the money.

Seems fair enough to me.

rodan

21st Feb 2004, 21:24

There is no requirement for a controller to be a graduate. Why do you assume that the pay should equate to that of a graduate in other jobs?

I'm not assuming anything, it's just a useful comparison. It was mentioned earlier in the topic that NATS may be going after graduate types now rather than those looking to change career, or ex-mil. The figures I posted seem to support this. Whether it is a good idea or not isn't my place to say.

using your figures and calculation method cadets currently on the course will be earning the equivalent of £26.4K -What was your point??? we still lose out!

See above.

I think rodan's point was to illustrate that if the new pay deal gets agreed, then students won't be on £14.5k as some people are claiming, but equivalent of £21.4k.

Correct, although it should be borne in mind that those with mortgages and family in a different part of the country will effectively be on less since they have to pay for accomodation twice over. Hence why this is still an attractive prospect for graduates, who probably don't have such commitments yet.

Point Seven

23rd Feb 2004, 18:21

It ain't often that I agree with Gonzo (is it matey?!) but he has made a good point all the way through this forum.

And anyhow, I personally don't want people wanting to do ATC beacause of the money. There are already too many starting to filter through and it shows in their attitude. Call me old fashioned but this job is a vocation and to do it well you've got to truly appreciate what everyone is trying to acheive. Not just appreciate your own pay cheque.

So if you ARE on 40k and you're not prepared to take a pay cut to do this, clear off beacause you're not cut out for it anyway

P7

Kirstey

23rd Feb 2004, 18:37

Point 7 - I am prepared to take a pay cut! I prepared to the take the one I budgeted for last year! Not the the one they want to force on me now! If I was in it for cash then I wouldn't have applied in the first place would I? and to be fair there seems to be support from most places on this thread, and constructive argument both ways!

Thanks for an excellent contrubution .7, to finish allow me to quote Alpha 16 from a thread in Dec 2002

----------------------------

Dearest Point Seven.... for starters I am a 'she' not a 'he'.

secondly, if your now a controller at "the busiest airport that Blighty has to offer" then I'm assuming it's been a while since you actually sat the tests. I've sat and passed them with flying colours (oh yes... i checked!!) twice in the last 2 years.. I would assume that makes me more qualified to give advice than you!

thirdly... just cos you were successful first time does not make you any better a controller than a person that takes 2 or 3 attempts. The fact that you see fit to advertise it on this site as though its going to up your profile is a bit sad.

fourth and finally, if getting into NATS means you have to be a completely obnoxious, arrogant **** like your good self then I doubt I'll ever get in!

A16

----------------
I hope if I go ahead with NATS I don't end up in LL tower - I'd hate to lose out on "turd of the year" award to you every year!

VectorLine

23rd Feb 2004, 19:26

I certainly don't agree with dropping students salaries - very unfair after advertising a certain level.

However, £21.4K if that is correct, is more than I earned at CATC and that was only 6 years ago. It was also a career change for me. It's good money for a temporary job. (which it is until you validate)

You could compare SATCs/TATCs to trainee accountants and lawyers. Generally the salaries are similar and the latter 2 require a better education standard.

Whatever happens, there is no point moaning about it - decide whether you can accept the salary to make the career change and accept or decline the job offer. SIMPLE

I think it is a great job worth doing and it doesn't take long to get back to £40k+

Kirstey quoted Alpha 16

if getting into NATS means you have to be a completely obnoxious, arrogant **** like your good self then I doubt I'll ever get in!

Did A16 get in?? I wonder..

and kirstey, from..
Becoming an ATCO isn't a dream for me. It's a considered move into aviation, in order to give me a chance of a career I may enjoy. Money is still a big factor for me.

You sounds as though you have the right stuff!

And what's all this guff about 'Their Lives in our Hands' ? ? - we are not brain surgeons or Gods (despite what the chaps and chapesses at TC think!), It's not life or death..

fourthreethree

23rd Feb 2004, 20:24

And what's all this guff about 'Their Lives in our Hands' ? ? - we are not brain surgeons or Gods (despite what the chaps and chapesses at TC think!), It's not life or death..
Now either I am missing something here or that is the most outrageously wrong thing I have seen on these forums for a long time.
In the light of events over the last few years I can't believe you have the apathy and/or audacity to say something like that.

Jerricho

23rd Feb 2004, 21:32

Thank you for reminding us about Alpha16 Kirstey.

She has been very quite the past month or so, hasn't she? Always a reliable source of information and insults. And a seemingly massive dose of sour grapes (but we won't start down that road again.........I'm sure Mod Radar has better things to do!)

And come on V-L, you want to sell yourself short with that throw away comment, fine. Don't group the rest of us into it! I suppose you feel pilots are just glorified bus drivers?

PPRuNe Radar

23rd Feb 2004, 21:51

(but we won't start down that road again.........I'm sure Mod Radar has better things to do!)

I do ... and a few of you have started down that road again. Stick to the topic folks or I'll bin the thread. That's the simplest thing for me to do by far ;)

Kirstey

23rd Feb 2004, 22:00

I think in context a16 comments wern't enitrely inappropriate!

Jerricho - you strike me as being a smart guy, and MORE than capable of saying what he thinks and standing up for himself. What would your reaction have been if you'd have been offered a place at CATC and then send a letter confirming that your salary would be c£5k less than you were first told!?

Not looking for a fight here - just curious?

Jerricho

23rd Feb 2004, 22:07

Fair enough Kirstey, check your PM's :ok:

(Anybody comment about me being a smart guy, remember I'm leaving the country in a couple of days, and I know where you all live!! ;)

rodan

23rd Feb 2004, 22:18

And I was under the impression that if two aircraft collided there would be an awful lot of death........ Oh well

What's all this aircraft business? I just point the little blobs around the screen. Is somebody not telling me something? :}

Kirstey

23rd Feb 2004, 22:23

No PM yet Jerricho..

I reckon it's just like you to leave a girl with an empty box!

Jerricho

23rd Feb 2004, 22:27

Give me a break.........I can't type and think at the same time.

Like walking and chewing gum.

(Empty box........now that's rude!!! ;) Consider it filled)

Kirstey

23rd Feb 2004, 22:44

Sorry - just wanted to do the empty box joke!

Thanks for the PM, hope you don't mind receiving as well as giving!?

Jerricho

23rd Feb 2004, 22:59

For the first time I am totally speechless.............. what can you say to that? *Blush* ;)

Gonzo

23rd Feb 2004, 23:02

Maybe we should close this thread and let them get on with it..............:oh:

PPRuNe Radar

23rd Feb 2004, 23:15

Just wait till his MIL finds this out .... I can sense a storm brewing !!!

Jerricho

23rd Feb 2004, 23:30

Not like you to drift a thread Mr. Radar!

May I refer you to this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120211) as to the reason I can't do justice in replying to your post :E

055166k

24th Feb 2004, 15:00

To come back to Earth for a second; several posts on the enormous responsibility of the job......true.....but we're talking about Student pay on this thread. I think you will find that validation holding controllers who really do bear an awesome responsibility for safety will do rather well out of the pay deal. Something to look forward to! Believe me when I say that once you're past the short transitory training phase this job is Great...and the pay is OK....even if it does seem to be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Greebson

24th Feb 2004, 20:39

Wesel you wrote:

Quite true, but do the following words mean nothing to the company?

Trust
Faith
Honesty
Understanding

Unfortunately mate, no, but at least you've learned early

weselfluren

24th Feb 2004, 23:04

Greebson - so how the heck can they expect that towards NATS from me/you/anyone else? (EDIT Gonzo - yes they do!)

Think someone up high with a big desk has forgotten that employer-emloyee relationships work both ways when they formulated their hr policy (sorry, not a very apt word that, policy/process/system when added to hr)....:mad:

Learnt the lesson too late - 3rd strike has happened. Mainly due to me not lying through my teeth during the interview - and giving the company line. So frustrating and so very very sad.....:{

Edited * Edited due to major blood boiling session and rise of red mist over emotive issue making my keyboard type by itself (humble pie please barmaid!). WF's Issue is with system, not any one person. Nuff said.

Gonzo

24th Feb 2004, 23:51

so how the heck can they expect that towards NATS from me/you/anyone else?

Do they? :confused:

shame the ATCO didn't pick up his desire to ****** off to Oz as soon as. Shouldn't have trained him, being a homesick aussie.

Is this true, Jer? You're really going back to Oz? You've got all of us looking towards Canada as you leave, but you'll slip out the back door and sneak back to Oz! :p

Sorry I didn't make it on Friday, some of us have to work to the end of the shift and cope with your 'Early Go Spacing (tm)'

Good luck! :ok:

Jerricho

25th Feb 2004, 00:25

Edited cause I can! And cause WF did.

weselfluren

25th Feb 2004, 00:30

Whoooaaa!

Jerrico - the issue is not with you, but the fact that you can get declined on the issue of loyalty based on their assumptions of you. It's the excuse for a system/process at hr.

Oh, and I was also told that they thought my career ambitions lay outside NATS - well what the heck are you meant to do in between university and the 3-4 years it takes to get your foot in the door.

The jokes on me, not you. Should have taken the dole for the past few years and I'd have been ideal. I decided on a job and now I'm too "focused on non ATC things"........

You try not to be bitter.

All the best for the return home - no offence intended (looking for the door in the rearview mirror....):E

P.S. 6 years? I mentioned that my old age was going to be spent on the beach and that was enough to chop me. That's a lot more than 6 years off, try 30......:oh: :{

P.P.S Any NICE ATCO's out there? Yup all of those who use their time to post replies to us wan(ted)nabes....

Jerricho

25th Feb 2004, 00:42

I apologise to others for that little outburst.

WF - Check your PM's. (No, I'm not having a go at you!)

Just checked your latest post........you really don't know when to shut up do you? I thought I was bad..

In future I suggest sending you post to Tobzalp to proof read it before you hit the send button.

(Edited as part of a gentleman's agreement)

5milesbaby

25th Feb 2004, 01:35

Any NICE ATCO's out there? This thread isn't giving the profession a good name - in complete differance to the many friendly ATCO's I got to meet on one of my many Tower visits....

Err, plenty. For starters, every single one that holds a training licence and allows students both good and bad to control on it in the hope they one day may validate. Quite apt for this thread. I am sure that both Jerricho and Gonzo are covered under this category.

Learnt the lesson too late - 3rd strike has happened. Mainly due to me not lying through my teeth during the interview. So frustrating and so very very sad.....

Thats unfortunate, but I seriously hope you are not implying that everyone that has been offered a place/started/validated has lied to get the job. If you feel you should have lied then maybe NATS are right to not accept you.

we expect an inflated salary becasue we're doing a really tough job with a HUGE amount of resposibility.

The responsibility starts the day you validate - therefore likely to be the ATCO scale, so you will be rewarded adequately. Why should this extend to student pay?

To Quote:
Quite true, but do the following words mean nothing to the company?

Trust
Faith
Honesty
Understanding (end quote)

Trust - How about YOUR trust in the company to give you full training to do the "really tough job with a HUGE amount of responsibility" and the companys trust in return for you to study your hardest to get through.

Faith - Erm, they are investing over £250K just for your training. The faith is that you are worth it and get through.

Honesty - Working Practices change every year, everyone goes through pay revisions, sometimes with an outcome of no increases, and sometimes with a decrease like this one, they will inform any revisions/changes before you sign up and commit.

Understanding - £600million in debt.

Maybe I'm missing the point a bit, but until you have SIGNED a contract, NATS have no obligations toward you. Therefore they can do what the hell they like regarding the course including pay and working practices/conditions for those not already signed up. The changes will be provided to you contained in the contract and you have the choice to not sign, walk away and lose nothing. It is unfortunate that this has to happen, but its life in a big company. I have suffered pay changes that seriously affected my income prospects AFTER I had started - and had no way of changing this. I hope not too many are put off by this as its a great job to be involved in - get through the first 3 years, and then you'll be sitting proud AND happy, as will your bank manager also. :ok:

PPRuNe Radar

25th Feb 2004, 02:47

As Jerricho and WF seem to have reached an understanding ... I'll let the comments sit for now. Either gent can of course EDIT their own posts if they wish to retract anything :E

Gonzo

25th Feb 2004, 03:07

Agree with 5milesbaby, in fact, every one of my watch are nice (not sure what they'd say about me! :p ). We regularly socialise outside of work together. As to Jerricho, I've seen him once in the last five years, but I went through the college with him, and I remember him as a top bloke, despite the fact he is an ex-colonial ;) . I heard that his leaving do was busy, but whether that was because of his popularity or just lots of people wanted to make sure he left, I don't know! :ok:

You say that you didn't get through the interview because you didn't lie. Is that really what you think? If so, why is it sad? If you were interviewing someone and found out they 'lied through their teeth' then how would you feel, would you then offer them a job? I cannot remember if you've mentioned this already, but have you asked for/received any feedback from NATS?

Yes, there are lots of things wrong with the recruitment process, and it's got worse over the last few years, despite us (when we started in March 98) being assured that the time lag between first application and starting on the course would decrease to below six months 'soon'. However, the pay deal that is on the table at the moment (including the decrease for students at the college) is far from certain to be voted in, and until that happens do you really think that NATS should contact all applicants with the news that they "may be on less money for the first few years if the deal goes through, but if it doesn't go through nobody knows how much anyone will get paid, so just sit tight!" Or is it more feasible that updated salaries will be detailed with the offer of employment and start date once the pay structure is concrete?

weselfluren

25th Feb 2004, 06:19

Jerrico - you are right! I don't know when to shut up. Also, you're right about it being nice and cosy on the forums to think and say what you really feel - a thing far too many of us Brits are unable to do face to face. Thank god for Pprune otherwise I'd be forced to keep that stiff upper lip and put up and shut up....:}

Gonzo - Lying to get in - by that I meant regurgitate the company line, even if it doesn't apply to you at all. Would rather not go into it any further, as this chapter may not yet be officially closed:ouch: It is very galling to know (yup, feedback was given and was very honest & detailed) that you are not deemed suitable for non ATC-related reasons - such as pursuing a career outside of NATS for one.....:{

The pay issue is thorny - I agree that there is nothing tying NATS to the previously mentioned sum, but the fact that they are peddling a job on a salary which is due to be reduced dramatically is a bit off. I applied over 20 months ago, and if I had got in, I'd have been a bit dissapointed - and would probably have lost the home or Mrs WF - hence my rants. None are directed at any of the lovely ATCO's who devote their time and brain power to answering the queries on these forums, just thought there might have been a more supportive reply than a "tough crap mate" approach...

Off to Edit my previous post, as I am a gent. Will need to think of a new moose-related insult to add now :E .....

Only joking Jerrico, hope it's not too cold over there!:ok: