LHR-MAN in 6 hours, courtesy of BA

[MissChief]

No names, no flight number, but what a c...-up on Tuesday. Our hapless A320 crew set out on our 140nm marathon journey carrying fuel to allow 40 mins holding. As soon as we had spent the 40 mins at Bovingdon, off we dived into Luton, to start the comedy of errors. (Apparently, our 40 minute hold had been extended to 1 hour). Suffice to say, handling problems, slot times, and stand availability at LHR all added to the delay.

Given the circumstances prevailing on the day, this was a very poor performance by the team of 2, compounded by the fact that not a single word of apology was given from the left seat, just a series of inappropriate and factually incorrect announcements.

Wish I was paid as well as these folks (and the pension/job security) to exercise such an appalling level of professional skills. On second thoughts, maybe I should be grateful to work for a company who don't apply unreasonable pressure regarding fuel policy. One way or another, this was a poor show, although safety did not seem to be compromised.

Never again BA.

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

Stop whingeing!!! Ever heard of 'circumstances beyond ones control'. Was probably the case that the hapless drivers had no more idea of the probable delay in the hold than you and the other pax did. Perhaps you would have preferred to have heard a few fairy stories while going round in circles and then have the opportunity to whinge even more when the delay was even longer! At times like this ferrying freight almost sounds appealing!!!!!!!!!!!!!( Don't worry GSS, I haven't applied!).

[DCS99]

You wrote LHR-MAN in 6 hours. Holding at Bov??

[frangatang]

All your comments are no doubt true,but has anyone publicly
declared what a pack of non accountable useless tu***
HAL are.Did you know that BA does not have a service agreement with them,ie if they choose not to deice the ramp etc
because it eats into their profits then you as an operator can take
a running jump.The shambles the other night proves this.
The following morning,Ba flights were waiting for in excess of 3 hours for a stand,on icy apron areas and taxiways that looked as though they had never been deiced.Workers were banned from the apron for dangerous conditions and on the previous evening when we had all of half an hour of snow,the aircraft deicing rigs were nowhere to be seen.
With that in mind,HAL have not taken anything onboard since
the last shambles last winter and my earnest advice to professional aviators operating to that dosshouse of an airport
is not to bother leaving your overseas departure point until
at least 2 days after the cessation of the snow.
What was also interesting was the reaction of BA managers to all this...just a shrug of the shoulders and what can l do!
PS this is of course written referring to LHR

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

Interesting to see that BA intend to demand £1mill+ in compensation from BAA for cancelled flights over the past few days.

[Man Flex]

Just thought that you might be interested to know that we diverted into LHR on Wednesday night because LGW was closed and managed to get out again in 45 mins!

Yes, I too was very surprised. LHR was down to single runway operations but we still didn't have to hold. There was no stand available initially but that soon changed and '55' were very quick to provide us with fuel and a dispatcher. Even a push-back crew turned up!

Apparently though there was a four hour waiting period for de-icing which we did not require.

[Diesel]

Misschief,

Your accusation that this was a very "poor performance " by the flight crew involved is based on what exactly? Please explain how they could have anticipated the cock up on the ground at LHR that night. I was flying at lhr and would be most interested to know.

Please do not let your personal frustration affect your judgement. The fact is these guys were able to hold for 40mins and then divert. If you think BA's fuel policy is in error feel free to write and make that point.

Regards

Diesel

[DarkStar]

I don't think the problem was with BA or any airline yesterday. It was B.A.A/H.A.L!
Taxiways and Stands were not gritted properly, the airport was like an ice-rink......A/c could not be towed on/off stand or to/from base and LHR became gridlocked by around 11.00. Shameful!

A/c were arriving on 27R and taxying to the end of the runway to 'park' for stands on the outer taxiways, it was appalling to see BA / VS / AA / EK all holding on these blocks for over 40 - 50 mins because no stands were available.

Flights were diverted because of reduced flow rates and as many flights as possible held at outstations.

It's time HAL are hit in the only place it hurts - in the pocket!:mad:

[BikerMark]

And, of course, it's not as if the bad weather was unforecasted and unforeseen.

The snow arrived at LHR bang on schedule, at about 17:15 on Wednesday evening, just as the forecasters predicted.

It also froze hard. I walked out of CCO to my bike at 18:45 expecting just to sweep off a light dusting of feathery fluffy snow. The damn stuff was frozen pretty solid!

Mark.

[White Knight]

just need to clarify something, the snow was on wednesday. However the topic starter is talking about TUESDAY !! Was there a snow problem that day ?

Yes, EK diverted from LGW weds. evening and held on a taxiway for just under THREE hours before getting a stand !! Heathrow is a joke:mad:

[IceHouse]

At MAN given the severe wx conditions the airport authority were deicing runways, taxiways and ramps in that order hence iced up ramps were not touched till after midnight, and causing handling problems all night, although on wed night they seemed to be sorting the ramps out and had a lot more deicers out, I guess it was the same story at London airports. I dont think uk airports consider it to be cost effective to have millions of pounds of deicing equipment to be sat around for 364 days of the year, also the fluid used on the surfaces freezes after a short time making it even worse...

[Carnage Matey!]

I don't remember any weather problems at LHR on Tuesday. Perhaps MissChief would like to explain what his/her psychic powers foresaw as the cause of the unexpected disruption? Either that or just stop drivel.

[Not Long Now]

No one having a pop at Brum? Go on, share the wealth.
Lovely little Brum closed at about 8ish on Wednesday to reopen at 12 noon Thursday after "the sun has deiced the airfield cos we've no de-icer left!"
God save us if any real weather ever turns up.

[BEagle]

Ah - so that's why the flights to/from Birrmigoom were delayed. Inbound LH BHX-DUS was cx'd, outbound therefore had to use an ac which had positioned empty from Cologne. I was at DUS (what a nice airport) and the efficiency of all aspects of RW clearing, de-icing and cold weather ops in general was excellent.

Waiting for the sun to de-ice the aerodrome indeed.....!!

[Anti-ice]

MissChief

Grow up:rolleyes:

[Jerricho]

MissChief, are you effin serious.

BA's fault!?!?! I think you had better re-read your post and consider deleting it.

BTW, as a matter of interest for me, what time did all this occur? Certainly wasn't after 1400 was it!

[Paul Wilson]

Well the incident above may or may not have been BA's fault, but I can tell you what is.

Their diabolical arrivals/departures information on their website. This will gladly tell you "this information was updated 1 minute ago" whilst the estimated departure time listed has come and gone.

Yesterday I dropped someone off for the 1340 Milan flight (BA566). Now earlier flight had been cancelled, so I thought a delay likely, but until 1400 BA.com were still estimating a 1340 departure, then it lurched to 1505 where it stayed until it left gate at 1701. Now they don't actually give you a takeoff time either, but from BAA's site it hadn't taken off by 1735.

What is the point in providing inaccurate information? If you don't know when the flight is going to depart, just say "Sorry due to severe weather we are unable to estimate a departure time"

[stormin norman]

MissChief
At least BA flew in the Bad weather did Ryanair ?

as said in previous post 'get a life and grow up'

[carbootking]

wot every one forgets is we get hardly any snow a year . ok we were warned but it came down so quick theres nothing u can do in the snow countries it snows all the time so they no how to cope probably all the airport operators got in snow guys from ohter countries to see how they cope but when u get wierd snow loke this i doubt they would no wot to do. as for the everyday person wot did they do . they all shot off home as quick as they could clogging the roads up hence blocking the gritters and snow ploughs doing their jobs.

[Jerricho]

If you don't know when the flight is going to depart, just say "Sorry due to severe weather we are unable to estimate a departure time"

Cause it can be more than weather causing problems. I don't even pretend to understand flow management, but slot times can also be a factor. Also, they can't predict a loss of a runway due to an aircraft emergency. Or departure flow enforced due to staff shortages/strike action anywhere in Europe. Or a crap tower controller (Aint that right Point 7!!!!)

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Come on fellas, MissChief has laid the bait and you all jumped in headfirst! You'll notice there's been no reply from the lady concerned. Probably a VS commuter!

[stickyb]

Lovely little Brum closed at about 8ish on Wednesday to reopen at 12 noon Thursday after "the sun has deiced the airfield cos we've no de-icer left!"

Had a friend who was due to fly back from Dublin on Wednesday evening with BM, didn't get back until Thursday afternoon. He was also told that the delay was because airports had "run out of de-icer" - is that really true?

[Paul Wilson]

Of course I accept that it can be other things than weather, but why the spurious accurracy? at one point around 1430 I spoke to the guy travelling, he'd never left the Exec club, so there was never a hope of a 1340 depature. My point I suppose is that once it has become obvious that your estimates are about as useful as a chocolate teapot, stop giving them out. People will be making decisions based upon them, such as "do I drive to the airport to pick up mr Bloggs now?" and are going to get hacked off when they get there and the plane hasn't even left.

[karaoke]

MissChief I am curious to know why it was you were on a BA flight?
Don't you work for a rival airline who also operate the same route?
Where were they? Had they cancelled ?


Gerupta Singh.

[Megaptera]

You could have gone by train in which case 6 hours would have been a very quick journey indeed...

[fiftyfour]

I work for GB, and on early Thu morning I reckon that BA (our handling agent) at LGW were very good indeed. The problem is BAA. They are responsible for clearing ice from stands (in this case stand 143). On arrival at the stand about 45 mins before departure, the aircraft had been de-iced, steps were at the front door with de-ice granules on each rung, refuelling was in progress and the first baggage trolleys pulling up onto the remote stand. Despite requests one hour before STD, from the dispatcher, for the ice rink below the area of the steps to be treated so that passengers could safely walk a few yards from bus to bottom of steps, nothing happened in time for STD. In the end a BA aircraft deicing rig was used to spray the tarmac around the steps. I would say that BAA, who have been making serious money out of their captive airline clients, need to provide a proper service, or reduce their charges.

[bagpuss lives]

We understood that Birmingham hadn't run out of deicing fluid they simply had "the wrong type".

Sounds very Railtrack-esque to me :D

Happily too the place thawed just in time for a plane full of City Council dignitaries to land. Very nice timing indeed ;)

[openfly]

Mischief.. ''never again BA'' GOOD! We dont want you.



So, Mischief.....

I now gather that you work for a competitor airline. If that is true, and you were using a staff travel ticket, then your VITREOLIC post against BA, and its pilots, is a disgrace. It is very easy to find names of staff travellers on flights. I am contacting Manager Staff Travel, to let him see your post. I hope that your staff travel on BA will be reviewed, and, of course, your own company advised of the situation. Staff travel is a perk and should not be abused.

Happy travelling.

[PPRuNe Radar]

openfly

You have absolutely no evidence that Miss Chief was flying on a staff ticket.

But you seem happy enough to condem anyone who happened to be travelling on a staff ticket that day anyway as having made the post.

Lets hope that any individuals and companies who are penalised by you passing on Miss Chief's post understand your reasoning and logic. Maybe they'll even shout you a drink .... or something :\

[Musket90]

fiftyfour

Your handling agent (BA) can also be very bad indeed. On a recent GB flight into LGW on a quiet winter's Saturday afternoon the captain boasted about arriving 20 mins early on schedule. Little did he know afterwards we waited 1hr 30mins for the baggage.

Everyone working the ramp wants it to be safe so instead of handling agents continually whingeing about ice on aprons why don't they help out. BAA and other airport operator staff need as much help as possible in dealing with the unusual weather situations experienced Weds/Thurs. It was a "white out" in the space of a few minutes when temps were above freezing then it dropped below making it very difficult to deal with.

If BAA didn't make serious money then who would pay for the extra LGW North Terminal pier, LHR Terminal 5, upgrading infrastructure for the big Airbus A380 and now a second runway at STN, collectively costing billions of pounds.

[MissChief]

First, error on my part..travel was on Thursday, not Tuesday, so weather situation now explicable. Experienced a 5-hr delay with BA (CitiExpress) on Weds, having paid 190 pounds personal money to fly SOU-MAN. Fair enough...destination airport closed, then insufficient de-icing rigs at MAN caused further delay ..as eventually explained by airline concerned...with apologies...important that.

MAN-LHR flight (0930L dep) cost me 182 pounds, again own money, and travel due to urgent and pretty terrible family circumstances, which I would not choose to detail on this site, or any other for that matter.

Departed MAN around 10, with delays anticipated and announced by FO rather confidently.."not a problem", and then dived into LTN having been advised STN by the Captain..no amendment till on ground, but I know they will have been busy just then.

There is no doubt this could have been avoided by a professional level of anticipation and planning, given the weather and ground-handling problems that day. There is no need for VITRIOLIC snipes (spell check, please), or the useless flames advising "Grow up" or the like. No staff travel involved, as stated, and likewise no employment by a competitor, although past experience with a competitor using same type on same route, many times, has given me an insight into ops into LHR.

Disappointing to see such unnecessary rage displayed...hope the contributors concerned either cool off or seek professional help. I kept cool on the day, despite missing a connection, which cost me yet more money, with no assistance from BA...and keeping cool is a key part of our work, no? Probably confused the day as I arrived at final destination over 14 hrs late...but still cross with BA. And I reckon this is permissible.

[Alfie_Midnight]

Miss, I'm going to regret rising to your bait but....

Hapless 2? Unprepared? Get a life. In your profile it states how professional you are. Comments like the above just go to show how thoroughly unpfofessional you are. Were you privvy to the information the gang had before departure? Were you privvy to all information during the flight down? No? Well shut the proverbial up then.

Yes, the day wasn't the greatest, but to have 40 minutes holding and then divert shows that the crew had uplifted extra fuel to account for anticipated delays. If you understood anything about fuel policy you would've realised that they didn't commit to LHR at any point and were probably wise to divert when they did. My guess is about an extra 1800Kg's of fuel (~45 mins holding), combined with whatever departure delays there may have been due to the wx. My guess is the crew involved probably uplifted an extra 2 tonnes to cover. Around about what I would've done, in fact possibly slightly more. What would you have done? A blanket extra 5 tonnes I suppose.

With an attitude like yours is it any wonder you're unemployed? I wouldn't like to come across you sat the other side of the desk should you ever apply. Although I suspect with your holier than thou persona you wouldn't even think of applying. Would you?

Methinks you shouldn't have given up the day job....

[Jerricho]

Perhaps if you read Alfie's post AND understand it, you might just realise why people are telling you to grow up.


Wish I was paid as well as these folks (and the pension/job security) to exercise such an appalling level of professional skills

Really......questioning the professional skills of fellow pilots. Of course people are going to get their backs up. And have you considered that EGLL was single runway for quite a while for de-icing (equals delays), that increased spacing on final approach was required cause the jets were finding it hard to get off the runway (equals more delays) and one of the runways had an unforseen closure due to a foreign object being blown onto it. (equals even more delays). Not the fault of ANY driver up there.

[Seeta]

MAN - luxury !! how about this horror story : HP350 Reno/Phoenix last friday (America West), inbound flt diverted to San Jose due X-winds - probably because no extra fuel taken, everyone else managed to hang around and land, then the inbound crew when they finally got there (2 hrs late by then) declared a further delay to 1400 because of 'weather', so it is time for lunch for the crew, whilst every other operator managed to arrive and depart on time... check in staff meanwhile are blaming HP's hapless A320's saying everyone elese's planes are Boeing's which have better capabilities in the wind (!) despite the fact that UA and NW both put A320's thru there during this time, passengers by now almost rioting (well you would too if everyone else's planes were flying, especially WN's every 10 mins or so), conclusion plane broken, waiting for part, except that in the small print HP state that if the delay is due to weather then they don't have to fork out meals and hotels for disrupted pax..... so what do you expect the staff to say... Net result we all miss at least the next two connections out of Phoenix and get home around 2am instead of 1800 and HP lose 140+ pax worth of goodwill cos guess what guys, pax ain't stupid !! So I know safety comes first but lets get real here. Hello Southwest, Hello NorthWest, goodbye HP !!

[Diesel]

Misscheif,

You say this could "no doubt be avoided by a professional level of aniticipation...." PLEASE explain what information you have to suggest this is not the case. In the absence of such evidence I will have to assume you are just moaning about the fact you had to divert. Sometimes such things are unavoidable despite the very best planning. Most airlines have a fuel policy which would not normally allow such lengthy holding as you experienced. The fact that you held and then diverted suggests sensible precautions were made.

Please either provide the clear explanation for your sweeping accusations of incompetence or understand that most people here will have to assume that you are simply an unhappy customer with with little understanding of reality and an unwillingness to learn.