LDG Lights ON = Cleared for T/O

[Capt Groper]

LDG Lights ON = Cleared for T/O

Shouldn't it be universal that once being cleared for Take Off that, especially in Commercial Jet Aircraft,landing lights are selected ON?

This would aid taxiing A/C (especially those on another frequency) and ATC in knowing visually if an A/C is on the roll (or about to).

If only clear to line up then only Taxi / Nose T/O Lights should be ON.

Obviously this is only for Aircraft that have two or more selectable switch positions.

---- What are your thoughts? ----:ok:

[Pub User]

Shouldn't it be universal that some lights are on when cleared for take-off, but some others, which may be indistiguishable from a distance, on for line-up? Only of course on aircraft with certain light selections available to them?

Great idea.

Any other pointless and complicated ideas to help you forget something important at a crucial stage of flight?

[Captain Stable]

Pub User, I don't know what type you currently fly, but you should be aware that Taxy and Turnoff lights are very far from indistinguishable from Landing Lights.

If you disagree with the suggestion made by Capt Groper (with which I am in agreement) you are free to express such disagreement. What you are not entitled to do in the process is to be disagreeable.

As this is a first offence I will take no further action for now.

[Spearing Britney]

I also agree, 'ldg lts on' should be selected only when cleared for take off - sadly only one set of commercial SOP's I have ever flown to had this in them! One word of caution, there is risk in linking any additional action to the take off clearance as in moments of mental fog some may (wrongly) use the switch position to confirm an idea about the receipt of the clearance...potentially serious.

Incidentally, some I have flown to also suggested ldg lts on only after receipt of landing clearance on approach, try that at 50 feet coming into LHR! Problems with this also include aircraft visibility, e.g. in the hold, when amongst VFR traffic under RAS/RIS. So for me, on when cleared TO and on again when below 100/approasching the hold.

PS I know mod bods can't be everywhere but to be fair there are far more obnoxious individuals around than the admittedly rude pub user who seem to go unchecked!

[Daysleeper]

Its a fair point but you want maximum visibility whenever you are on the runway, so our SOP is all lights on before line up.

[Captain Stable]

Daysleeper, I hear your point about max visibility - but I disagree. Apart from anything else, most landing lights have a very limited filament life, and are mega-expensive. Without airflow over the covers, they tend to burn out very quickly.

The sequence that I find most helpful is as follows:-

On the stand - nav lights on.

Clear start - anti-colls on.

Clear taxy - taxy & turnoffs on.

When clear line up AND entering the runway - strobes on.

Clear takeoff - landing lights on.

Leave landing lights on until passing 10,000 in the climb, and back on passing 10,000 in the descent. They also stay on until evacuating the runway. It's bad practice to have them on any more than that on the ground - apart from the filament life, you can easily destroy other people's night vision.

[alf5071h]

This thread is a classic example of a workaround solution to a particular problem – the need for greater awareness of aircraft in the vicinity.

By all means use landing lights, but don’t expect to have any standard; lights are designed for specific purposes and will be / should be used for their primary role. As and when the crew requires more illumination they will / should use landing lights. There are few if any safeguards against a misinterpreted signal from the use of lights when a pilot needs to use them in a ‘non standard’ manner. Workarounds often expose more hazards than they cure.

With a need for greater awareness other devices should be considered either individually or collectively; start with ACAS?

[FWA NATCA]

Don't forget that the reason for the lights is so that you can be easily seen (and if necessary avoided).

As a controller I've seen various types of strobes, landing lights, etc. and I vote for the Brighter the Lights and Strobes, the easier it is for me to see you, to point you out to other traffic, and to ensure that I don't forget about you.

Mike

[Captain Stable]

Agreed, NATCA - but it won't make it easier for you to see a little puddlejumper at the holding point if he's using standard lighting (anticolls and navs) whilst waiting for instruction to line up when everyone else around him has those plus strobes and landing lights on when they're not needed.

[spudskier]

well, this is just me and my C172 or Grob talking...

We of course have to positions for the landing light... steady on and pulse. When cleared for tak-off on the ground, the landing light comes steady on as well as strobes (except at night and thr strobes will come on immediately after t/o... too distracting otherwise) and then about when departing the vicinity the pulse light will come on.... this is day or night.... the back to steady on when cleared to land...

The steady on landing light switched at clearance for t/o or landing is a good system also for myself so if I have any doubt as to whether I was cleared or not, I can just look down at the switch. and I'm very consistant with turning it on every time I'm cleared for t/o or landing.

[Daysleeper]

Captain Stable , in general i agree with your point, however I used to fly a 4 engined 55,000kg aircraft that had no strobes, or turn off lights, so from above at night there was only one small red rotating beacon. easily missed amongst runway lights.
The Landing lights not only provide direct illumination but also backlights the aircraft against the runway from above.
As for the cost of the bulbs, well they are a heck of a lot cheaper than having someone land on top of you.
There is a bit of a similar debate running in my company over LOGO lights at the moment, SOP is to turn them off passing 10,000 (along with landing lights) lot of people think they should be left on, increases visibility hugely.

[FWA NATCA]

Captain,

I agree that the strobes and landing lights have no business being on while taxiing or holding short because of the danger of blinding or distracting another pilot, but as soon as you enter the runway, every light that you can turn on should be on (See And Be Seen).

Regretfully there are still many GA and older AT aircraft that only have a landing light and small red rotating beacons so they are harder to see.

Mike

[BigHairyBum]

Does anyone know who did what with any light switches at Tennerife?

:sad: :confused:

[safetypee]

Tenerife, could’nt say - because it was foggy?

Hence don’t expect some standard procedure or other good idea to work for all circumstances.

[normally left blank]

True story: An inbound aircraft passing a VOR about 40 NM out and see an outbound one still with landing lights on. He is on a different freq. but ask the controller to pass the message. The controller says:

"XXX, you still have your landing lights on"

"Thank you...say, what kind of radar do you guys have?" :D

[Loose rivets]

Luxury!! We were told not to use the landing lights at all...unless it was a very dark night. The huge bulbs burnt out readily, and an old boy had to be cajoled out of retirement to wind a new filament and re vacate the bulb. Cost, 90 pounds sterling. About the value of the port engine and part of the wing.

HP7 c 1978

Hand on heart, this is true.

[Ignition Override]

You all have made some very good points. Do many pilots, in whatever countries, turn on either nacelle lights or the brighter ground floods when cleared to taxi across a runway, or even when "cleared into position and hold"? A number of pilots over here also leave their taxi lights off a good bit of the time-even when the airplane is going quite a distance-at night (!), out of courtesy. But this makes them much harder to see when we are off to the side.

To repeat others' comments, it never hurts for the other traffic to have a much easier chance to see your plane, day or night. If a few seconds of this cause a light bulb or two on the side of the plane to burn out, then the mechanics (engineers) can just replace them, or MEL.:hmm:

[LEM]

I'm with FWA NATCA,

when on the active runway turn on as much as you can, cleared for take off or not.

Other people must see if the runway is busy or clear.

Light bulbs life is negligible in comparison to a safety issue like this one.

Messing up with traffic on the active runway is what scares me most.
:oh:

[Fright Level]

most landing lights have a very limited filament life, and are mega-expensive

Nonsense. The PAR36 used in light singles costs no more that $10 and the PAR64's used in the 744 less than $50. The lamps themselves are not expensive, but only the engineering time airlines charge themselves to get a screwdriver out to replace it.

[FWA NATCA]

To support the policy of having every light (strobes, landing lights, taxi lights, etc.) ON, is the accident that occured at LAX about 8 years ago. Had the Merlin been more visible from the tower, or to the aircraft on final this accident would probably never had occured.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[LEM]

Exactly, and don't forget to do the same when cleared to cross!

[False Capture]

In an effort to increase bulb-life, some companies don't use taxi and navigation lights during daytime operations. Some don't use the landing lights during daytime and simply rely on taxi lights for take-off and landing - preserving landing light bulds for night-time.

The strobe lights on some Avro RJ100s are only activated by weight off wheels - with no manual over-ride, the strobe lights only flash when the a/c is airborne.

Clearly there's a long way to go before the use of a/c lighting is standardised.

In the meanwhile, if you cant remember if you've been cleared to take-off or land, rather than looking at the position of a light switch surely it's safer to ask ATC for confirmation.

[Iceman49]

Always thought that Nav lights were mandatory, unless MEL'ed inop. As far as saving the bulbs, have to say from experience that its rare that they burn out. Additionally it seems penny wise and dollar foolish as far a safety.

[chuks]

We follow the procedure outlined by Captain Stable there.

If there are birds around (vultures and kite birds, since we are speaking here of West Africa) then we put the landing lights on flashing for takeoff, along with the weather radar selected 'on'.

On our aircraft the taxi lights are often indistinguishable from the landing lights while the towers usually seem not to notice whatever is going on out the window anyway. Sometimes one is asked for a postion report either just entering the flare or else having already landed and cleared.

After takeoff we switch to 'recognition' until passing FL100 to save on light bulbs.

I usually put the landing lights on 'flashing' for landing, since we often have birds present, especially when they are mowing the grass. Vultures can be very hard to see and they tend to dive into you when you pass under them.

[Rananim]

Landing and strobe lights on when cleared position and hold or line up.Strobe lights on when crossing a rwy.

[Captain Stable]

I should, perhaps, point out that Rananim is using USA-speak in his post above.

For those who live in the ICAO world, "cleared position and hold" does not mean clear to the holding point, it means enter, line up and wait".

The USA is waiting for the rest of ICAO to adopt their illogical terminology. ;)

[Ranger One]

Runway incursions are one of the most significant safety risks amenable to technical amelioration at present, IMHO.

(Fatigue is a whole different topic)

I'm therefore firmly in the 'ON the active? All lights ON' camp. Any other traffic can make the *safe* assumption - I'm rolling, or will be as soon as I'm cleared.

Given the magnitude of the risks, 'lightbulb costs' is one of the silliest arguments I've heard in quite some time. Beancounters should be ineligible for airline employment unless they have at least a CPL/IR... :\

R1

[bigbeerbelly]

To all you guys who care about these things, please stay out of your training department. I don't mean to offend, I am just talking from past experience. The airline I work for got some instructors who were very interested in this topic. Now, four FSM revisions later trying to learn the taxi/landing light policy is a nightmare. Let me try to some it up (by the way this is on the CRJ200)...

any electrical power on the aircraft = nav light

before engine start = nav + beacon

Taxi (day- good visibility) = recog/taxi light
Taxi (day- low visibility) = recog/taxi light + nose landing light
Taxi (night) = recog/taxi light + the nose landing light + the logo light

Position and hold (day) = strobes+recog/taxi light
Position and hold (night) = strobes + recog/taxi+nose landing light + Logo light

Cleared for takeoff (day or night) = all external lights on

After takeoff (3000AGL) = landing lights off, all other lights remain on

Climb (10000MSL) = wing inspection+logo+recog/taxi off, only beacon and nav on, seatbelt sign off or off then on (sterile cockpit)

Descent (10000MSL, day) = taxi light on, seatbelt sign on or if all ready on, off then on.
Descent (10000MSL, night) = taxi light + logo + wing inspection + seatbelt sign dance

Cleared for approach = left or right landing light (depending on runway assignment) + seatbelt sign off then on

Cleared to land = all landing lights on

Taxi in day/night =it all starts over again.

And for those of you who are wondering, YES these are big items during line checks.

BBB

[prayboy]

BBB that is the most ridiculous load of rubbish Ive seen in a long time........

[BlueEagle]

I don't think it is fair to dismiss it as 'rubbish' Prayboy. It is how a particular company wants it's aircraft operated, obviously after some thought and discussion, the object of the exercise being safety. A bit long winded, unnecessarily complicated perhaps but certainly not 'rubbish'!:D

[prayboy]

OK, OK, then...long winded and unnecessarily complicated. sounds very much over the top. what does your company stipulate?? what are you happy with? cheers...PB

[Captain Stable]

It should also be pointed out that "Position and hold" is not an ICAO term.

Translation for everyone else is on the runway, waiting for takeoff clearance.

[Ignition Override]

FWA NATCA- Roger that. When a jet's crew mistakenly sidestepped or misidentified DFW's runway 17R for 17C, I wondered if the MD-80 crew, which was told to shutdown its engines (major weather delay) ON the runway, had either its nacelle or even brighter ground flood lights on. Maybe they would have been seen by the crew in the other plane? It sounds crazy, but I turn on both switches for the ground floods every time I taxi on or across a runway-even in the daytime. It might be easier to always remember this at night, and it could save somebody's "butt" (bum) or job one day. Obsessive or not, just two small switches need to be flipped.

Luckily, the landing aircraft at DFW missed the plane which (bizarrely) was parked on a primary runway at a huge hub airport....and what helped to allow the Captain to keep his job was the fact that he never tried to cover-up or lie about his mistake (how could he?).:O

PS-another topic, but that incident reminds me: my airline does NOT require us to say "loc active..... glideslope active" on visual approaches, although navaids are required for a back-up, even at night. Why not make the call-out?