OXford and Jobs

[Dr.Evil 2002]

For those of you who did/are training at Oxford I wonder if you can offer your opinion on the following......
Now when I graduated I signed up/registered for the career development service offered by Oxford. Since then I have received my monthly email update (or not!!) from the ever so helpful, characterless and cant remeber your name even though he's met you over 50 times career development officer and have had the promise of serveral potential employers wanting to take Ox grads.

Sent my CV to Ox, waited...waited....waited. Have met the criteria for all the employers that have (apparently) approaced Ox for low hour pilots etc etc.

I then get the odd email saying the employer has put recruitment on hold or they are about to call forward some grads for selection. (Im sure this sounds familiar)

In the meantime my friends from other training providers are getting interviews, sims, JOBS and I am told I cannot apply direct to these airlines as it MUST go through Oxford.

Well i'm just a little bit miffed about it all. Yeah OK I understand that very recently some grads have got jobs with flybe but considering the amout of crews they are recruiting compared with the number of those that are Ox grads it appears to me that Ox are restricting my chances of employment rather than enhancing them.

Before anyone asks, I got a first time pass at g/school (90%) and first time passes at flight tests (finished with a grade 2)

Can anyone shed any light on all of this?

[Saitek]

You posted at 5:55am.....sleepless night?

Same boat my friend, same grades exactly as you, same opinion on Career Development Officer, he is half a sandwich short of a picnic. I went to see him for half an hour on the day before the BALPA employment conference, before I had finished the I/R, to discuss a few issues. Next day at the conference I saw him and said hello and his reply was "hi, how are you doing, hows the job hunting been since you left us".......

I have seen people get work through Oxford, though even as my grades have been reasonably high they havn't given me one glimmer of light, maybe age +30 might have something to do with it, I don't know.

I havn't hung around though, I paid £60k for my ATPL and I am not going to sit and starve and not apply to companies because Oxford say so ......... boll:mad: ks to that.

They're obligation was to complete my training which they did well, and now obligations are over as far as I see it, If they do come forward great, but I am not in any way relying on that to happen.

Interestingly enough, they took 8 to Ryanair last week and are taking 16 more. Flybe want 40 by the end of the year.

Between my course mates we are all of the opinion that the career development officer is the not the right man for the job, he is not putting the best interests of students first, as you so rightly point out, but rather the interests of the Airlines.

He is also a politician who will never give you a straight answer but always comes out with 1 of 10 standard phases.

Remember these, you should they've been used 1000's of times:

Q, Hi career development I'd like some information on CV's

A, " Do you realise the Airline industry is predicted to treble in size by the year 2030, think of the opportunites that presents "

Q, I say Mr. Career development officer is that Cheese and Pickle in your sandwiches.

A, How many aircraft have easyjet ordered? how many pilots will they need? so how many jobs will be created by others leaving to fill those roles"

I wouldn't bother he is a waste of time :confused:

Try the IPA on www.ipapilot.com or 01444 441149 if you havn't already, miles more helpfull than BALPA also, people who know what they're talking about, who listen and give masses of relevent information to help......Good luck

[High Wing Drifter]

Dr Evil,

I have no experience of Oxford. But my experience of employment agents in other industries is that they will only find you a job if it suits them to do so. I can't imagine why aviation would be any different.

Usually in other businesses motivation to help other peoples careers comes in the form of substantial commission. Unless this guy is getting paid for each student he secures a job with, the sponsored students are always (rather than mostly) going to get the first shout.

Find out if he has a daughter and marry her. That should move you to the top of the pile.

Good luck,
HWD.

[witchdoctor]

Heh heh, oh dear, oh dear.

Yes, a familiar and sorry tale, and one which affects me too. However, it doesn't bother me greatly. I receive the e-mails quite happily for all the use that they are, and just do my own thing regarding jobs. I doubt the mystery airlines throw any CV's in the bin that didn't come via Oxford.

I do know some of the grads on the OAT website who have had jobs thanks to meeting the selection criteria to go via OAT (I don't by the way, so never bothered enquiring further), and personally I wish them well. I also know plenty more who have found employment without anybody else's help. Take your chances wherever you get 'em I say.

[trainer too 2]

Any info on this Ryanair and Flybe deal??

[Half a Mexican]

Dr. Evil,

Can I ask how old you are?

Saitek mentioned the being 30+ might have something to do
with the difficulties he has been having; do you think your age could be a factor?

--
HaM :}

[monkeyboy]

trainer too 2, allow me to answer your question on the Ryanair scheme:

Oxford submitted 8 CVs to Ryanair some weeks ago and the gist was that you attended two selection days down at GECAT and if successful, you were then asked to fork up £17K to pay for your type rating with the possibility of being taken on afterwards with Ryanair. Notice the word possibility.

I know because I was one of the 8 selected but turned it down as I do not have £17k to spare after paying for me CPL/IR.

If you look on the GECAT website, you will see a link somewhere near the bottom mentioning Self Sponsored. I believe this is the same scheme..........and I've just noticed from your profile that you're already type rated so not much use to you, I'm afraid!

[Dr.Evil 2002]

How should I start my reply......

"Ladies and Gentlemen..."

Well I'm 26 so age shouldn't be such an issue.
It just seems the guy is a complete waste of space, like the previous posts I had the same experience when I met him..... the next day he didn't know who the hell I was!!!!

For those of you who know him.....If you were a Chief Pilot or head of HR would you trust this guy to provide you with quality crew?

I'm sure as hell I wouldn't.

Come on Anthony...... Get a grip mate!!

[Down3Greens]

i concur fully......

[runway]

...could it be that we are all waiting to see what happent to the APP students. I can't help thinking that perhaps our career depletement officer is holding fire to try and get as many of their enthusiastic and elite pilots jobs when they graduate. After all, Oxford has pinned its entire reputation on these people, and they are going to be pretty annoyed if they find that they don't have the jobs they were promised, which they paid an extra 20k for (he he). If this is the case then i feel that oxford may be up a certain creek without a certain impliment.

runway.

[Saitek]

Nothing wrong with Oxford from the MD to Customer Services, everyone is approachable, professional and helpful..... Except Career Development.

Well he is in essence a nice guy, just unhelpful, completely disinterested and always trying, seemingly, to get those "annoying students" off his back. :yuk:

It's a shame as Oxford have gone to great lengths to bring the facilities into the 21st century, career development really is the weak link, unless of course it is purley only a marketing tool to bring in new business, and not there to actually help students, in which case it's a rip roaring success. You always hear students talk about it in a "it's a waste of time, there is no point bothering" kind of fashion. :confused:

The current career development officer is good for the CV/Interview seminars no doubt, but if Oxford really want to increase their partner airline tie-ups (like CTC are doing) and really want Career development to serve the interests of the students (Oxford recomendations, Airline recruiters of tomorrow) they need to have a dynamic, corporate, gregarious go-getter type of person in the job and not a disinterested political pussy cat.

For Oxfords sake it needs addressing as there is much dis-satisfaction on this part of the service, it simply aint good enough :(

[Dr.Evil 2002]

Runway.... I hope you're wrong but on reflection it could well be that they are planning (hoping) to get the APP grads jobs. It is very much a s**t or bust situation though cos I would be pretty pissed off paying that money for the APP and OATS not at least getting me an interview.

At the end of the day we all have to work our butts off to get that first elusive job, we all know that.
The thing I resent is the attitude "You MUST go through us, you CAN'T apply direct because it will ruin the relationship we (OATS) have with the airline"

Well i'm sorry Mr. Career Development Officer but if you woke up from your coma and showed some enthusiasm and desire to get your fee paying CUSTOMERS a foot in the door i'm sure so many people wouldn't be so pissed off with you.

As Saitek says, OATS are good, they certainly helped get me the grades I did so like I said before....Anthony..... get your act together and don't let one area of your company let you down so badly.

[Busta Level]

Ahhh..good old Oxford....Not :hmm:

Why am I not at all surprised that the story remains the same ast it was in '97. How have they managed to get away with it for so long? Whilst the training and intructors were first class, the whole operation is let down by the admin/marketing/'career' departments.

When I was coming to the end of my course, as Oxford suggested, I went to arrange an appointment with the guy in question (can't remember his name!) to discuss employment options, look at my CV for suggestions on improving it etc etc. As he had spent the last 13 months saying how great he was, and how he had so many airline contacts, I thought he might be able to be of some help. I was told by his miserable secretary to 'come back once you've got your IR......

OK - although as I was not expecting him to find me a job, just looking for some of his much advertised 'advice', I thought that after the IR was a bit late, as I'd be in the process of leaving Oxford.

After the IR, I went to make an appointment, to be told that he could see me in two weeks! So I moved out of Oxford, back to London, and started the long job search on no money with loan payments looming. On the appointed day I borrowed some money and car from my GF, and drove to Oxford. I arrived about 15 minutes early, and was told to sit and wait outside his office, he was on the phone and would be with me shortly.

1 Hour later he was on his 4th phone call, and had not even acknowledged my prescence, even though he could see me sitting outside his glass walled office. I was getting a bit annoyed, as I had to get the car back for my GF to go to work. Finally, the phone calls ended, and then some mullet headed to$$er walked straight past me into the office, and sat down in front of the employment guys desk. They launched into a mirthful in depth discussion for another hour :mad:

Still with no acknowledgment of my prescence, I had to leave, so left my CV and contact number with his secretary, who promised he would call.

Never heard from him again. What a waste of space he is. What is the point of him?

Whilst I was in no way expecting him to find me a job, I do think that his behaviour was inexcusable. I did find a (very good) job eventually, but it had nothing whatsoever to do with the Oxford career department. This despite his crowing both before and during the course about his skill and derring at allowing students to land that elusive job.
:rolleyes:

The thing I resent is the attitude "You MUST go through us, you CAN'T apply direct because it will ruin the relationship we (OATS) have with the airline"

Whatever you do, DO apply directly to the airlines. Bu&&er his 'relationship' with his imaginary 'airline contacts'. Would you rather be unemployed whilst he dodders about, or land a job? Good luck anyway ;)

[TRon]

It's a fact that Oxford are seething about CTC Nicking 'their' idea. McAlpine's are next door for god's sake and they went with CTC!

Rod Wren, Oxford's ex head of training, jumped ship to CTC and started the CTC McAlpine sponsorship scheme and is exactly the same model as the APP, although I am sure there will be someone from the marketing department who will highlight the differences for us!

Difference being CTC actually have some tangible customers before they asked people to fork over 60-70k, Oxford are full of promise and we know what that amounts too....

So I think we can see why Oxford are so annoyed and pushing on with the APP. I think it is just a second rate stab at not falling behind, and losing their long standing market domination. I think the competition from CTC is healthy and should shake out some of the dead wood from Oxford.

I also had a chat with Mike Taylor having left Oxford who told me that since I was modular and didn't do my groundschool there they couldn't put me forward for anything...As if they make any difference.

In his letters it whiffs of desperation and I quote:

When you get employed please let me know so I can amend our records; also it is invaluable to have a contact within the airline.

On the same theme, when you get employed we would appreciate if you would email us a picture of yourself – ideally in uniform on the flight deck – which we can publish on our website.

Will those who attend selection processes email or telephone me details of the process; this way I can build up a comprehensive database?

If you have any information that you feel that will be of use such as useful email addresses, airline who are recruiting, etc. please let me know so I can inform all the other graduates.

If there are any topics, seminars, etc. that you would like added to the Professional Studies Programme please let me know.

If you have any experiences that you wish to share with your colleagues such as Employment in the USA, the Job Market in Italy, Flying in Africa, please email details to me.


All of the above seems to benefit them.

On the whole I was very happy with oxford on the flying side I just feel they are being massively let down by the departments mentioned before.

It is not that I expect them to help me, as the only person that is really going to do that is me, but the fact they tell some guys/girls that they will put them forward and 'not to apply direct if you are an oxford graduate' is quite pathetic and only serves to really pi$$ people off as they make out they have our lives in their hands, when in reality they arent doing anything unless it benefits them but some out of respect will not apply...and will never get put forward.

It's like you are taking their toys away from them, and they want them back!

I think the career department was set up for the influx of airlines that they thought would flock to their hallowed APP Program. Now poor old Mike is just dealing with run-of-the-mill Modular students and non-selected Integrated and will fob you off with standard answers, that is until you get a job, then get in touch with a photo and some contacts, that they should already have right?!

I would reccomend Oxford time and time again for flying but I just wouldn't pin any of your hopes on it affecting your chance of getting a job, or them getting one for you as the only person that can do that is you by working your ar$e off!

[Dr.Evil 2002]

TRon, you made me laugh.... yeah I loved the email about letting him know when you get employed, emial addresses, contacts etc.... bollocks, i'm not doing his job for him!!

One last thing I will say as I remembered it this morning. When I went to see him with my CV he made a few comments, scribbled a few bits on it and sent me on my way.
When I returned the next day with the amendments he advised me to make he then (apart from not remembering me!) amended one of his amendments!!!!
Ok, I may as well have just bought the god damn book he was obviously getting his ideas from!!!

Well I later took my CV to a frind of mine who happens to be a Human Resources Manager who ripped him to bits and I now have a nice professional CV based on advice from a professional.

aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, such a shame.

ADVICE....... Don't cough up 60k+... go to CTC!!

[Saitek]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you get employed please let me know so I can amend our records; also it is invaluable to have a contact within the airline.

On the same theme, when you get employed we would appreciate if you would email us a picture of yourself – ideally in uniform on the flight deck – which we can publish on our website.

Will those who attend selection processes email or telephone me details of the process; this way I can build up a comprehensive database?

If you have any information that you feel that will be of use such as useful email addresses, airline who are recruiting, etc. please let me know so I can inform all the other graduates.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again totally agree with you TRon, that quote really gets my back up.

I was proud to have gone to Oxford, and I would have loved to help them, give them my picture, telephone them with details, help them in any way I could, BUT I just cannot, and all because of career development, I cannot help them to deceive people in my position in the furture or to flog more courses.

As for supplying them with information, surely that is Mr Taylors job and not the students who nearly all secretly rubbish the so called service as a waste of Oxford money (save the money Anthony and give out free sandwiches instead, they'd be more useful).

It really is a shame, I have found Anthony Petiford to be a really astute, nice and helpful guy who has put right many of the wrongs at Oxford and dragged it into 2004, and then you've got the point where all that effort and investement interfaces with the UK airlines. Career Development office.

I did not know that CTC McAlpine stole Oxfords thunder as previously stated but you only have to speak to CTC and speak to Oxfords Career Development to see why they are storming ahead. Oxford will never make inroads into that impressive and growing list of Partner Airlines CTC have with the current format.

I have advocated Oxford in the highest terms in all areas except this one and I, unfortunately, as well as the 5 ex course members who have not found work, all agree, privately and will not offer them anything as things stand.


Do we have any pro Career development tales, any real incidences where they have made a big positive difference and not just bashed over a CV from which you were the one picked??

[Dr.Evil 2002]

Anthony...........Please........... for your own sake and the sake of the poor ba:mad: ds that pay all that money........SORT IT OUT.

[Arrestahook]

Have been through Oxford and CTC, Oh dear, Anthony these people speaketh the truth.

[witchdoctor]

Aw come on guys, give Lofty a break. It could be a great deal worse. Anyone remember his predecessor?

Now there was a real c**k! And he was no better as a met instructor either. My God, how I wept with laughter all through every one of his tedious and repetitive lectures. Somebody must remember the standard phrases!

At least Lofty is a reasonably nice guy, just in the wrong job. I'm sure he means well, but that won't get anybody jobs unfortunately. Especially those that don't meet the 'mystery' airline criteria. What are Oxford doing to help the remainder of their customers I wonder?

[Dr.Evil 2002]

Witchdoctor... I agree he's a nice guy, but just useless at that job. It's a cut throat business and he needs his throat cut!!

I actually had his predecessor for met..... a very odd man!!!

[Down3Greens]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
At least Lofty is a reasonably nice guy, just in the wrong job. I'm sure he means well, but that won't get anybody jobs unfortunately.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That, in essence, sums up the thread.

He is a nice guy, but he does himself no favours.

As a previous poster said, he is like a politician, who avoids questions and leaves you walking away dazed and confused.

maybe should be re-labelled "career detriment"

[TRon]

Thankfully this thread hasn't turned into another Oxford Bashing excercise and I think that is to its credit now.

Anthony, as posted earlier, has done a great job of pulling it into the next millenium and it really is a modern and efficient place for training and he himself is an approachable and helpful MD.

If you are reading this and are planning on going to one of the APP Seminars take the career presentation with a huge pinch of salt. ALL schools are going to tell you there will be a pilot shortage and they will help get you a job, it's all TOSS.

It's true Oxford have this 'Department', but you only need to have a look round the number of students in the canteen at lunchtime to realise that getting picked out of just Oxford's grads will take some exceptional scores or a lot of luck.

Any career development department would have a tough job getting a good reputation of placing people with the current level of jobs compared to the number of people being pumped out of Oxford every day of the year, let alone the country and Europe. I think there are 2 first time IR's attempts a day just at Oxford.

So just as an epitaph to everything else said here the Career Development Department are just not handling the many of us pumped out well at all and what needs to be remembered is that is our last memory of Oxford and that is the most pertinant and personal aspect of the whole process, and yet it seems it is not being treated as such.

What I want to state, and many others here have done so, is that I was extremely happy with Oxford as a training organisation for my CPL/IR it's just this whole experience leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, and the fact that people are possibly going to spend 60-70k on the basis they will be helped out by Lofty at the end when there is not ONE confirmed airline signed up to the APP is lunacy. Plus he is pleading for our photos and info to bolster their claims made to these people who are possibly risking their house, wife and family on the basis of their 'promise' when it is us who have gone out there and made it happen and not him with his imaginary 'contacts', I think is criminal especially with the amount of money we are talking about spending here on an Integrated course, which is arguably irrelevant now compared to full time Modular.

Mike's hours have been reduced to part time now, so I hear, so it would be interesting to hear what other people's experiences of the department are without him having such an input.

I am sure there will be a Chief Pilot/Flt Ops Director among Oxford's Graduates in 20 or so years. They need to remember that as they are leaving me slightly annoyed with the place having been so happy there, I might not ever be a chief pilot but I might know one....and that's what it's all about in this business.

[McCroskey]

Oxford never changes.

Firstly I'd like to say that Oxford is a great training provider with high standards and good instructors and if I had my time again I would go there again. Unfortunately though, despite what they tell you, Oxford effectively does not have a career department and never really has. It has always amazed me that a company like Oxford who has trained for many major airlines has no contacts in the airlines to help the self sponsored guys, instead they just have some guy who wastes your time.

I was there in '97 and the guy then (same guy as busta level spoke about I think) was totally useless, he told me he would try and arrange an interview for me with Aer Lingus after weeks of waiting and fruitless phone calls to him I decided to approach Aer Lingus direct myself and managed to get my own interview with them, the day after my interview I rang him, he told me he was still trying to get me the interview with Aer Lingus, I told him I'd already had the interview with them no thanks to him he turned angry and accused me of going behind his back and wasting HIS time, he said if I wasnt going to "go through him" what was the point of contacting him. Dam good question mate!, as you can imagine the phone call didnt last much longer.

I see its now Mike Taylor's job to waste peoples time, poor bloke, he's a nice guy when you get talking to him in the pub its just he's let down by the fact he's useless at his job, he should go back to being the Adams Family butler.

My advice for anyone at Oxford now is just do your own thing, dont pin any hopes on Oxford apply to everyone regardless of what they say and dont let them waste your time, I always got the impression that they just wanted the self sponsored guys to go away so ring and hassle Oxford as much as you can, it wont get you anywhere but its good fun to here them squirm and remind them that your still there, you've got nothing to lose.

Good luck everyone.

[fly-half]

The Oxford website states that they have 'recommended students to airlines' so when I was a student there I never made much of a fuss and tried to make a good impression and get a good report. I thought I would take the initiative and go and see Mike Taylor a month or two before finishing and he told me to come back once I had done my IRT. When I did this and tried to sort out my CV with him, my course had obviously finished and I was having to leave Oxford so I was not able to have the one-to-one contact and help that I had envisaged happening.

One time when I met with him, I told him I was a subscriber to Flight International and was keeping informed on the industry so he then asked me what easyJet had just advertised in the previous week's Flight International. I replied that it was their Open Day in Manchester. "And how many pilots did the advert say they were requiring?" I struggled with this question and told him I didn't know exactly. "But you just told me you read Flight International! If you don't know how many pilots they need from the advert then maybe you're not reading it well enough!". Well, I felt very embarrassed and humiliated. How could I have forgotten? He must have thought I was a fool! Well, I was so disturbed by this that I checked when I got home and read the advert again. Guess what? There was absolutely no mention in the advert about the numbers of pilots required! What a :mad: !!

I meant to expain as well that it was made perfectly clear to me when speaking with Mike that they do not recommend students but, in fact, 'filter' students. They should change their marketing pages on their website in that case so that potential customers are not given the impression that they recommend anyone!

[TRon]

This is phrase and verse from Mike's hallowed text:

One of the many airlines we are in contact with is flybe and they are actively recruiting and will need up to 100 pilots over the next two or three years and, other than 6 pilots a year they are contracted to take from elsewhere, they are only recruit Oxford graduates. If you wish to apply and meet the following requirements please email Diana attaching your current CV and authorize her to send it, together with your Oxford Report, to flybe; their entry requirements are....

.....I remembered this as I was driving to work this morning, sad I know, but another example of the spin that is coming from Mike, since FlyBe have NO 'contract' with Oxford and all their sponsored students are going through CabAir I really think Mike left his head in the clouds on his final flight of fancy with BA, if he has said this to any APP students at a Seminar I would demand to see the so called contract as I am sure that would have swung some decisions.

I am sure lofty hasn't meant any harm but is under pressure to produce results. What he is doing very badly is managing people's expectations and evidently trying to control a process that is ultimately out of his hands. It is essentially playing with people's lives on both sides for those coming in and those going out of Oxford's hallowed doors.

[jam123]

Dear All,

I have read all of the stories on this thread and as most of you recommend oxford for their high standard of training, do you think it is worth training with them for that reason? given the price of the APP, even though their career development seems to be crap.

If not oxford, which other BIG schools would you recommend?

Comments welcome from all



Jam

[batty]

Blah Blah Blah"Oxford havnt got me a Job etc etc etc"

Sorry to be hard but you paid for a FATPL not a job, the license doesnt guarantee a job. Oxford do a good 'SELL' on their product but at the end you are on your own save for a liitle help from them here and there.

Dont rely on Oxford to get you a job, get up knock on doors send CVs, visit companies etc etc, I know people over the 40 mark who have got interviews through sheer persistance and dogmatism.

Oxford give the hard sell now do it for yourself...if something comes though them then all well and good but dont pin your hopes on it. Once you have spent your last penny there they will have spent there last penny on you, ie little help.

As for the GECAT scheme with Ryanair, I havn't heard of a single person that has passed the course NOT getting a job, NOT ONE. Yes the 17K is hard to stomach but thats the way of the industry at the moment Im afraid. Remember that an FO with Ryan after 3 years will be on close to £70K gross (plus nearly 3000 jet hours) and you will be close to command as well, so staring down £85k gross.

The wages generaly are lower if you have a bond vs if you have paid for the rating so you do get your money back!

[Busta Level]

Sorry to be hard but you paid for a FATPL not a job, the license doesnt guarantee a job.

No-one is saying that it does :rolleyes:

I think the point we are trying to make is that Oxford is actively using the promise of assistance at the end of the course as a marketing tool. Indeed, telling students NOT to apply direct to the airlines! If they can't deliver the service, they should not be marketing it, end of story.

Dont rely on Oxford to get you a job, get up knock on doors send CVs, visit companies etc etc, I know people over the 40 mark who have got interviews through sheer persistance and dogmatism.

Yes - I think people who have spent £60k to get a licence are smart enough to realise that, and I'm sure that a lot of out of work FATPL's will find your reply just a teensy bit patronising. You and I were lucky enough to find jobs out of Oxford, but there are many who have not. Don't belittle them.



Yes the 17K is hard to stomach but thats the way of the industry at the moment Im afraid.

It is, at least amongst the 'low cost' brigade, but that does not mean people should roll over and expect to have to pay to get the job. How many other industries make you pay to get your qualifications, then make you pay again to operate their equipment to earn THEM money? I suspect there are none.

As for Blah Blah Blah"Oxford havnt got me a Job etc etc etc" I suspect you would have been saying the same yourself if you were unemployed for any length of time post-Oxford :hmm:

[batty]

Oxford is actively using the promise of assistance at the end of the course as a marketing tool

They are assisting what do you call all the news letters and information that they send you? If you believe all the marketing speal then I have several cars to sell you. A little research before starting out, even just on PPRUNE would have given you a truer picture

Yes - I think people who have spent £60k to get a licence are smart enough to realise that, and I'm sure that a lot of out of work FATPL's will find your reply just a teensy bit patronising

You would think so wouldnt you!! However that isnt the case. Not to mention the people I saw on the course at OATS who had paid the money and did b*gger all work and wondered why they found it hard and failed exams/flight tests. For those who did put in the work it seems pointless to sit back now and rely on OATS to get you a job, use it as a bonus.

at least amongst the 'low cost' brigade, but that does not mean people should roll over and expect to have to pay to get the job. How many other industries make you pay to get your qualifications, then make you pay again to operate their equipment to earn THEM money? I suspect there are none.

Who else employs low hour pilots directly onto jets at the moment in any number? Dont bite your nose to spite your face. As I said earlier I was bonded and paid far less than the guys who paid for their ratings. After 3 years it breaks even on both accounts.
Dont forget who ever you work for is using you to earn THEM money. That is the way of business.

I was very lucky to get a job, I know that. However in the time I was out of work I travelled all over the country to various head offices, rang hundreds of companies, made databases of all the info that I gained(even posted the information on here) to help other Wannabees. I asked for people to just send me any titbits they had to help YOU ALL with a current and fresh database of jobs/airlines/contacts.....did I get one bit of information back???NO!!!

And as for Blah Blah Blah Oxford etc....I wouldnt blame it on them ...its the way of the industry at the moment and a little research time before embarking on this route would have shown that ...pre a £60K OATS bill. I knew the state of the market when I started and took a huge risk, I also made sure that when I left I worked my ass off to make the most of my chances. Hopefully you are doing that, many dont! The industry has been in the doldrums for years now and was before anyone currently graduating OATS now started.

[aliG]

Yo check this

I ave to agree with me main man Busta blood vessel, You reeks of arrogance cussing the posse from your comfy 737.

You has no restecpa for the efforts we all make daily to hotwire one and to get up in those clouds wiv the aviation bruvvas.

Is it coz I is Blah

I certainly aint no Batty lover

[Dr.Evil 2002]

Batty

I'm sorry but you are a p:mad: k

Did you bother to read the thread before posting a reply?

The bottom line is that OATS should not offer this service if they have no foundation to back it up with. They also post this on their website for poor ba:mad: s to think they will be helped in getting a job.

Get out of your right hand seat and remeber what you felt like before you splashed out your 17k to earn....what was it 70k?

Are you sure you didn't just want blow your own trumpet?

Maybe if I look up Mr O'Leary's or Mr. Taylor's arse I'll see you at FL350

Yep, I've just read your posts again Batty and you really are a patronising little S:mad: T

Batty is about right for you.... you're completely BATTY

[batty]

Dr.Evil 2002

Did you read what I said? OATS do ASSIST, assist infers that you actualy get off your ass and do something as well. Appologies to the guys/gals who have done, this isnt aimed at them but the are always people who think that OATS owes then a job because they paid £60k I didnt pay £17k I was bonded as I state in the post...reading obviously isnt a strong point of yours

You have the gall to post...Now I dont want to sound rude but for christ sake why dont you get off your lazy arse and find the info out yourself like 99% of us do rather than be a lazy and put a post on here. or wants some help There's a whole load of us out there looking for that first/second/ perfect flying job and why the hell should we, who put in a lot of time and effort making contacts, researching airlines, searching the web and all that good stuff then share all that with someone who says " I wanna job" when someone asks for some info on an airline, just looking for a way in. I have shared information and tried to help, not just berrated people who ask for help! Grow up!

Enjoy 'Hanging with my homies and my Mini Me' with an attitude like that you will never reach FL350, enjoy the PA28 you will be on it a LONG time. Thank god for small mercies we dont need idiots like you sat next to us for 3 hours at a time

[Dr.Evil 2002]

Batty

I'm terribly sorry if I offended you. Now I think it's best we stop hurling abuse at each other.

FYI just because I don't talk about how soon I will get a command or how much I earn, If you'd ask nicely I'll tell you who I fly for and when we can play chicken at FL350.

My concern was and is as I did my training at OATS that they do lead you up the garden path somewhat. You seem to think everyone who has posted on here expects to be handed a job. Thats not the case.

As for you researching my other posts...... How did you find the time in between your minimum rest time?

Ciao

[reality check]

I have been very interested to read the opinions that Oxford students have of the Career Development Officer and I am not at all surprised at the views expressed.

I am also a past Oxford student and have had my own comical interactions with the Stan Laural look-a-like.

I think it is important to say from the outset that I had a very enjoyable time at Oxford and found the training excellent. I graduated with an 85% average at ground school, a series 1 pass CPL & first time pass IR. Quite naturally I was pleased with my achievements and so armed with a CV I went to see the Career Development Officer.

The first ‘problem’ he identified was that my grades were not as good as some other students. He considered a 90% average and first time pass at CPL & IR the desired criteria. I was pretty miffed at this, particularly as I was on one of the first JAA courses when the ground school failure rate was very high. The success Oxford later enjoyed was in no small part the result of people like me feeding exam questions into their question bank. I also firmly believe that whilst airlines do look at grades, they also look at the person, a skill beyond the Career Development Officer.

The second thing he told me was that I should show some form of ‘team work’ on my CV. I pointed out that my CV gave details of my work background, that being a Detective at New Scotland Yard, where I had worked in a number of specialist roles and had been commended for my work on 7 occasions. I had also put a number of sporting achievements and other interests on my CV. Well, the response was that I should consider doing the Duke of Edinburgh Award Scheme. I burst out laughing, until I realised he was being serious. He also said that if I had been a prefect at school or ever arranged a formal social event, put it on the CV. I was flabbergasted.

He then set about my CV with a red pen, and told me to come back when it had been corrected. I decided to ignore his rubbish and kept my CV as it was, particularly as I had been given positive feedback from better informed people.

I suspect that this bloke has been left unchecked for too long. This is why he has recently sent out an e-mail (which I have seen) telling people NOT to apply directly to airlines as this will not reflect well on them or Oxford.

This is utterly disgusting and offensive and quite rightly should be challenged robustly. Oxford is a training provider and as such their contract with a student/client is to provide them with the best training at their disposal. No mention is made in the contract or marketing material that once qualified your training record will be dissected and rubbished by an unqualified Career Development Officer. There is also no mention of having your rights to apply for jobs restricted or jeopardised.

Recently, I spoke with a friend who was ‘ambushed’ during an airline interview. He has a good pass rate, but did have some difficulties with an ‘in house’ test. He was asked how well he did at Oxford, and truthfully replied that he did well and got good passes. The bombshell was dropped that the interviewer had spoken with the Career Development Officer at Oxford who had informed them he could be a ‘training risk’. I was astounded that anyone could form this view about this particular person. Clearly, the numpty had done it again, he had made a perverse judgement about someone he didn’t know and destroyed their chance of getting a job. (Had it been me I would have considered legal action).

So why have Oxford got a part time incompetent buffoon in what would appear to be a critical role? The answer, my friends, could be a simple one.

Oxford is a very slick operation with some very switched-on people at the top, but, they do not have the airline contacts they claim to have. The jobs they infer are there simply do not exist in sufficient numbers for them to place their graduates. Currently, the Career Development Officer is just a marketing tool (possibly about to back-fire). The current bloke is actually perfect for the role of talking crap and fobbing people off. Rest assured, if Oxford ever really have jobs to hand out, they will appoint someone else to do it.

[rupertpupkin]

Dear oh dear…. reading these posts does make me smile!

You guys that are out there anonymously slagging off and personally attacking poor old Mike Taylor now that you are finished with Oxford and find yourselves with no job and bills to pay, as I recall, were the same guys queing up outside his office with your fake smiles and “first time passes” greasing up to him (and anyone else at the school you thought might help you get a job) when you were still there. Now that the reality of the industry has dawned, you are taking your frustrations out on this guy.

I am not defending him, I too think that there are other areas within Flight Training he is more suited to, but guys, wake up and smell the coffee - jobs for low hour inexperienced pilots with nothing but a PA 28 on their licence are very few and far between at the moment.

Come on fellers, grow up a bit. You gave it a go at creeping and crawling around a member of OATS staff in the naive hope you would land a job out of it and it didn’t work - get over it and try another angle. The fact it was Mike Taylor who’s arse you had to lick is irrelevant you would have sucked up to and then turned upon who ever it was.

Fact
No one forced us to go to Oxford
More fool you if you think Oxford has or ever will have any say or influence over the recruitment policies of Airlines
More fool Lofty for thinking that any student displaying any interest in him is genuine - they are only being nice cos they want something out of you
If you were in the right place at the right time and he did get you a job you would be all happy with the guy
Don’t shoot the messenger
Don’t get personal

[reality check]

'rupertpupkin' - if you have a problem with anonimity perhaps you would like to tell us who YOU are!

[Saitek]

quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
personally attacking poor old Mike Taylor now that you are finished with Oxford and find yourselves with no job and bills to pay, as I recall, were the same guys queing up outside his office
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

the words "as I recall" in the context of this sentence infer you are part of Oxford.

Rupertpupkin first post ?.......... set up a new account so no-one would suss who the message was coming from........ having the front to attack people for being anonymous and staying so yourself......... slight tinge of hypocrisy.

quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not defending him
---------------------------------------------------------------------

yes you are.......

quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
wake up and smell the coffee
---------------------------------------------------------------------

a phrase I have heard spoken by a senior Oxford manager a few times??

quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Come on fellers, grow up a bit. You gave it a go at creeping and crawling around a member of OATS staff in the naive hope you would land a job out of it and it didn’t work
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I havn't done either, I have tried to get blood out of a stone and banged my head against the wall but not bum licked anyone, and the naive hope you refer to that didn't work was not presented as a "naive hope" in the pre Oxford seminar I attended.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
More fool you if you think Oxford has or ever will have any say or influence over the recruitment policies of Airlines
----------------------------------------------------------------------

the only snippet of your steaming pile of t:mad:d I do agree with.

So why don't you wake up and smell the coffee and stop lying to people, stop making baseless promises of partners and link ups that don't exist. Many people who have contributed in an open way to this thread have good jobs. This was never about Mike Taylor, everyone knows he is basically a good man but just the wrong man for the job, it is about Career Development, the department he heads up, being a Marketing Tool to sell more courses, full of half truths and false promises and certainly anything but Career Development for the students who handed over vast some of monies in your BS sales seminar.

some of the PA28 guys and gals you refer to will be the Airline recruiters of 15/20 years time.

I'll suggest CTC as they genuinely have the framework and partner tie ups that Oxford BS about. :yuk:

[batty]

Dr. Evil 2002

Salary and time to command are quite relivant if your looking at spending £17-£20k on a type rating. I dont agree with paying for ratings but if I was in the position now I think I would have swallowed the pill and done it.

...You seem to think everyone who has posted on here expects to be handed a job. Thats not the case.

Not at all, many people work long and hard to get a job, you dont tend to here from them except for the odd post asking a civil question that you promply berrate. They quietly get on with it and find a job eventually. Oxford do assist in finding jobs, there are very few jobs out there to find for low hours pilots at the moment. It is an awful position to be in having paid all that money and not having got a job, that doesnt make it OATS fault though. I do agree that they shouldnt push the marketing side of getting a job so much, but do you believe every salesman who approaches you? Oxford have a product, they give it the hard sell. You owe it to yourself to sort the wheat from the chaff, and decide if they are being totaly truthful. Just reading this one thread shows that the truth is streched somewhat....

If your working now, I will ask 'nicely' who is it for? Did you have to pay for your rating. Also why are you still here starting winging posts about Oxford? A better post may have been about how you got your job, the interview process and the sim ride. That would have helped people at least.

Oh and for your interest I work 5 on 3 off know what Im doing months and months in advance. As for minimun crew rest I have had minimum rest maybe twice in 3 years so maybe you should do some research yourself..

[Dr.Evil 2002]

Batty

I agree, salary and time to command are important and I honestly didn't mean to get into a slanging match with you.

When I finished at OATS I was very lucky in that I have a military background and was fortunate to have several contacts in the indusrty already. The reason for my posting this thread is that I have friends who have come out of OATS and are, in my opinion fed a load of rubbish and false promises. As we all know we are all, no matter how old we are or how much experience we have, very excited after getting through the hard slog and I agree that no one should ever believe what any training provider tells/sells you with regard to jobs.

However, I think what the career development dept do at OATS is a scadal. We, as pilots are already bashed from pillar to post, having to pay 50-60K for the licence, maybe 20K for type and then are fed info that is a load of marketing s:mad: t

It makes me no less mad that I have a job, I would feel exactly the same way if I were seeking that elusive first job. I know more low hour pilots from OATS that have got jobs with the so caled "partner airlines" or whatever OATS call them than have been "placed" with them or whatever it is OATS do. This, after Mr Taylor has the front to say you "can't" apply direct.

The bottom line as I see it is that OATs should not be using this as a marketing tool as I see it as completely false marketing.

It's not personal, it's not about Mike as a person.

As for the paying for type - I personally didn't and wouldn't. As for your roster - it sounds good - better than I thought or heard.
Why do I whinge about OATS - see the reasons above. Just because I'm employed - doesn't mean to say I don't keep my ear to the ground and have an opinion on what they do.

Ciao

[Megaton]

Now, if you had gone modular with all the money you'd save you could have done a type-rating. Oh well, you pay your money.....

[TRon]

I think 'Reality Checks' post was excellent and highlighted the underlying theme to this Post. As for Rupertpupkin is bear baiting and is trying to get many to start a slanging match which thankfully hasn't bourne any fruit. This is not about a personal attack on Mike and I seem to remember Oxford being very nice to me when they wanted 8k towards the Instrument Rating up front....so it works both ways!

I think it easy for us to turn around and say many should have investigated their options further. For some the full time structured aspect of Integrated is their best option and a lot cannot leave their families to go to Spain full time that leaves precious little options in the UK in terms of training providers.

It is true that Oxford once had many major UK Operators turn to them for training but sadly the day of full sponsorships are long gone. Oxford have had to change their business model to be more in line with the current trend. I should think that the CTC and APP Forumlae will be the norm from now on with students funding all or part of the training and the risk being taken away from the airlines. Airlines will have a pool of tangilble 'quality' low hour fresh faced pilots to call on as and when they need them rather than fund what they see as a shortfall in their pilot numbers.

I am sure that in the next boom Oxford will have customers for its APP Scheme but at the moment they do not and that is not the information that is being portrayed. Many I saw being shown around were with their parents/sponsors who probably know little about aviation and to be told by an establishment such as Oxford that they have a dedicated career department and have links with may of the major airlines, these airlines used to use us blah blah would swing the vote for many be that naive or not.

The fact that we as ex-students are emailed asking for our info and photos, not to apply direct to partner airlines (and some are a 'Mystery') and that FlyBe have an exclusive recruitment contract with Oxford then two weeks later FlyBe go to Cabair for their sponsorship scheme makes me angry and that they are patently lying.

No-One is saying that by going there you ought to be owed anything, but the point about the guy that may have been a training risk and this was delivered by Mike whom I bet just read his training report and never knew the guy personally is bordering on criminal.

The Career Development dept. of any training organisation would have a tough job gaining a good reputation in today's climate. CTC could be seen as elitist and they place people they have actually assesed to a standard that their partner airlines have recognized at an advanced level, namely the MCC/AQC. Oxford give grass roots training that many airlines merely see as the absolute basics you need for the job. What airlines are interested in and needs to be proven, and CTC Do, is assess that this person can operate in a two crew enviroment, efficiently and competently under emergency situations and handle a jet in a minimum of cost to them in terms of specific training and further line training.

In essence Oxford are trying to overtrain people at a too a early stage and flog them off to airlines to finish off the most expensive and cruicial part of training and at a time when there isn't too much benefit to be gained from judging them. So, APP guys visit the SEP Centre at BA and go on Day release to help build a plastic igloo in an underpriviliged estate in Oxford 'for the kids', well big deal. That is not going to make people better FO's, and most if not all of us are going to have to work in a two crew enviroment first job or get 700 hours for Single Pilot IFR Work and the only way to do that is instruct. I dont think instructing is the dream many have when they rock up to their first day on the APP scheme, not that I am slamming instructors.

The MCC course at present is merely an attendance course and in my view under-utilised by many people and organisations since most airlines are demanding it as a prerequisite to entry. What CTC have done well is assess people on this basis at the very end of their training over the course of about a month to some handling standards above that of a Type rating. This coupled with their IR, CPL and Ground Exam results give the best overview you are going to get in terms of a Low Hours FO and often means that airlines dont even have to sim ride you, not that you failed PT4 at Oxford and got less than 90% in your ground exams so represent a training risk.....Cheers Mike, Nice1!

Until Oxford offer type ratings as part of their training package their APP Scheme will be nearly useless since airlines will still have to take these guys and assess them themselves and train them at a further cost maybe to bloggs student or indeed themselves, rather than take a Type rated guy from CTC who has been vetted and assessed to an agreed standard..who cares where he has done his training as long he is the kind of guy/girl they are looking for and can handle the aircraft and company culture which is what has been proved at CTC. That is what is important to sirlines not how flash the new FNPT King Air/Seneca sims are and where you go on day release to help needy kids.

This is not what is being told to people, but then if I was trying to sell Integrated courses at 10 grand above the going rate, I wouldn't say that either, so I can see why they highlight the 'benefits' of their scheme; just not the way they are selling people false dreams.

[Down3Greens]

TRon I commend you.....

That must have taken some time to write but your post was superb, well thought out, structured and objective.

Extremely well written :ok:

[Easynow]

Check dis. 'ear me now. Listen, you boys need to chill. There ain't no shame spendin' 60k on trainin' and bein' the most over-qualified burger-flipper in da Golden Arches. Do what I did. Get down to da local fancy dress shop and hire out da best blingin, pimpin pilot uniform and tell yo b-hatches yo be drivin da biggest jumbo in da skies.

Peace.

ps Down 3 Greens: you're a ccok, you're a ccok!!

[aliG]

Yo hear me now,

Who be this Eeeeeasy Now, dissing the bruvvas, me tinks you be a male hen, waving yor little table tennis bats round like a girlie in your batty boy dispatch outfit.

You ave the big flying aspirations, blowing £60k on ya pipe dreams, you leave the Oxford massif and now you be in da manchester airside as a parking attendent, backing in da jetstreams and shiny boeings for the nice customers.

so word up Micky Taylor, check this ............ you may take our money, you may take our dreams, but you'll never take...................................... our photos.

[mad_jock]

I must admit I was only modular ground school but enjoyed my time there and after i got a job phoned Steve and Dena to let them know that I had a job.

Got phone call from some burd who introduced themselves as oxford marketing no name given.

Asking me who i was working with who the contact person was etc. She was very upset when i told her that i didn't think having OAT on my CV had anything to do with me getting a job. I suspect I had the right postcode on my CV more than anything.

You have paid your money you owe them nothing. Ground exam pass results matter not a jot. All they are doing is trying to get a contact DB. The reason they want you to submit there CV's through them is so the can be party to through the grape vine info which they can't get. So by putting your CV through them you are opening up them flooding the employer with the top 1% of students at oxford so ******ing up your chances.

**** them, if they want to know who you are applying to say its marketable info so they will have to pay 20 quid for it. When did you as a student get anything free off them?

MJ

[flystudent]

I am currently at Oxford and I am sure there are many others who currently are, who like me have read this thread, it makes you sweat !!

However I have not yet called on the services of the career development officer so could not pass comment.
I think you will always find this will be a past tense thread down to the fact that people who are at/just left oxford will not be willing to participate in it for fear of rocking the boat.
I also think it will attract replies from persons unsatisfied with the service they have received vs. how glad they were with the service (granted, not always), so a bit of an unfair field.

We don't really know what links they have with airlines, and the type of relationships those links are, on a company or individual level (would be nice to know though).Sure there is the marketing stuff you hear all the time, same with any firm/product. (except ronseal, does exactly what it says on the tin !!)

As mentioned by others in earlier threads, I do think the APP scheme is one that is going to be looked at closely, by punters looking for a course and by recruiting airlines (do they exist??) to see if the product is a cut above the rest. When the first batch get churned out the results will depend I suppose on what there is available in the market.

This is my own speculation here but, I would imagine that a database of individuals that can be searched on specific criteria is attractive to someone recruiting personnel. For example to receive 3000 cv's and have to read them all to see which ones for example have a >85% pass mark and a first time IR pass vs. making a call to a firm with it all on a Database and have only those records sent down to you must be great. I know if it was me recruiting which I would prefer. (no, I haven't been brain washed just looking at it from another angle).

The next argument would be if your name made it to e.g.airline then following such example criteria what happens if they receive your name via another medium, who looks better or worse for that, do you look like you are determined etc or does the recruitment officer think, If everyone didn't do this it would half my teams workload and save me ££ and time and etc etc....... who knows.... only people in the know !!

The first 3 APP courses have about 30 students on them in total, of those there are I think 2 fully sponsored students and I think more than 15 who are kind of part sponsored who have close links with the said airline (liaison visits, exam reviews etc) . So will be interesting to hear what success stories are produced for them all, however especially interesting to see how the APP students who have no links with airlines get on.

All the best.

[fly-half]

To you and anyone else going through Oxford at the moment, you better pray you get that 85% average and 1st IRT pass or else Oxford won't want to know you very much. You'll be pleased to join the long list of graduates that are sent e-mails each week telling you such things like :

Ryanair is conducting a further round of selection this week (you're not invited though)

BAA have reported a 4% growth in air travel last year (predicting 5% for this year)

flyBE's recruitment is on-going throughout the year (and?)

Hangar8 are still trying to decide on the possibility of a vacancy coming up in the future

Occassionally, you will get a really humourous request like :

"I will end with some requests:

When you get employed please let me know so I can amend our records; also it is invaluable to have a contact within the airline.

On the same theme, when you get employed we would appreciate if you would email us a picture of yourself – ideally in uniform on the flight deck – which we can publish on our website.

Will those who attend selection processes email or telephone me details of the process; this way I can build up a comprehensive database?

If you have any information that you feel that will be of use such as useful email addresses, airline who are recruiting, etc. please let me know so I can inform all the other graduates.

If there are any topics, seminars, etc. that you would like added to the Professional Studies Programme please let me know.

If you have any experiences that you wish to share with your colleagues such as Employment in the USA, the Job Market in Italy, Flying in Africa, please email details to me."

Get off PPRUNE and hit the books my friends! You better make sure you're one of the elite at Oxford.
Buwahahahaha

[witchdoctor]

It does rather make you wonder why Oxford don't already have access to this information given the really good contacts they allegedly have with the airlines. Good enough to give OAT exclusive recruitment priveledges it would seem. Good enough to have developed the APP in partnership with major recruiters.

Hmmmmmm, I wonder............:rolleyes:

[leadinghedges]

My advice would be to stop relying on this career officer guy. If Oxford are suggesting that they will get you a job through their "contacts" they are unfairly building up the hopes of graduates. Oxford is a business, you are a statistic, a form of income. When you leave if you want a job you have to be pro-active, this is a hard fact, passing Oxford is difficult and expensive work but the work is not finished. I understand people are very upset as they have paid all this money and Oxford is not following through. The sooner you go looking for jobs yourself the sooner you will have one. The industry is about supply and demand, airlines are reluctant to spend money so a type rating may be an advantage. The real world can be s**t but i guarantee you it's worth it when you do get a job.

[Desk-pilot]

I'm an APP student currently at Oxford and I would agree with the assertion that Oxford marketing certainly lacks a degree of integrity. I can furnish one specific example of this. Before committing to any of the schools in early 1993 I visited most of the leading contenders.

When I visited Cabair I had a long 1-2-1 chat with a very friendly chap there who said to me that he'd seen many cycles in the industry over the years and he thought it would take some time for this one to play out. He recommended that if I could defer starting training until early 2004 (ie nearly a year) then I would probably be well placed in terms of hitting the recruitment upswing. I left that meeting deeply respecting both the man and the institution he represented for his honourable approach.

I was in touch with Oxford from 1991 through 1993 and every conversation I ever had with them when I expressed doubts about the state of the industry and timing my training they told me that if I started training then I would be finished in nice time for the coming 'pilot shortage'!! There's simply no need for Oxford to push this line - there are plenty of people driven by a deep seated desire to fly big iron and there's no need to feed people false promises to get them in the door.

In the end you may ask why I still chose Oxford. Well location was a factor, as were the facilities coupled with the fact that their notes are probably the best available. So far, I've been happy enough with my choice.

In the end anyone who wishes to enter this industry should use their own critical judgement to assess both when and where to train. Nobody can find you a job except you. The airline industry has been in a drastic state for over 2 years now and there simply haven't been the jobs there for Oxford or anyone else to point people to. That bit isn't Oxford's fault - but maybe a little more of the integrity Cabair demonstrated wouldn't go amiss.

Desk-pilot

[Regis Potter]

Integrity and Cabair ? Sounds like Tim Sharland was the guy you spoke to Desk-Pilot; he's one of the few marketing people in this industry who actually know what they are talking about. An experienced pilot who can judge the market without referal to others.

This is primarily the problem with OAT : Traditionally the first point of contact with the customer tends to be the marketing staff who are almost clueless about the aviation industry. The airlines are notoriously poor at predicting their own requirements for flightcrew so where the marketing people get their intelligence from is anybody's guess. As we are on the perhiphery of a potential recruitment bulge, it is true to say that now probably is a good time to train;however as far as the schools are concerned, when is it not a good time?

Professional aviation is for hard working, intelligent, resourceful pragmatists. Not for whimsical dreamers who tend to think they'll walk into a job as soon as they graduate.

Rant over, good luck ! :ok:

[MaxProp]

Although the overall situation is pretty desperate, some airlines do recruit selectively from nominated schools. Obviously, only the best get interviewed--make sure you are one of them.

[mad_jock]

Would you guys stop kidding yourselves.

Which airlines and how many jobs have gone that way?

I know of at least 20 pilots all on there first type rating in the last 12 months including myself who have got jobs.

All of them have been modular and all off them have been 1000hr+ instructors. The intergrated course is good for a very select few. The rest of you are pissing very good money up a wall. Don't give these barstards anything, they have given you what you have payed for ie CPL/IR nothing more nothing less.

Thats it, don't fanny about listening to them if they havn't got you an interview within 4 weeks of passing your outa currency and they won't risk you being crap in the sim. So as soon as the next course is out you can kiss your career officers arse he won't put you forward.

Get down the local airfield get to the local pilot pub its time better sent than speaking to lofty. Who i might add was the crappest rad nav instructor i have ever heard and has the charisma of a rotten tomatoe.

MJ

[Megaton]

Integrated courses are fine if you need a structured environment where information is spoon fed and someone else does the thinking for you. Why on earth would the airlines want someone who can think for themselves and make captaincy decisions on their own. Heaven forbid. The real difference between integrated amd modular is the amount of cash you've spent. Licence is the same. Standard is the same although you've probably accumulated less buttock-clenching experience on an integrated course.

[tom24]

Boy oh boy mad_jock, you do brighten up my dull office environment. I would love to have a good session with you!

I think people need to wake up to the fact that Oxford are no longer the force they once were. Some people will obviously never wake up to that fact. There is so much choice now days for the consumer and considering alternative avenues will leave you with a lot more change that you can use wisely on the real things that will hopefully lead to a job. Get a TR! Get an instructors rating! Put yourself about!

[finalsforbase]

fair enough getting an instructors rating, but how many instructors jobs are there realistically? the amount of pilots graduated in the last year i doubt many have got jobs, and if they all get instructors ratings, where are they all going to instruct?

[mad_jock]

Well if you stay in the south of England proberly its going to be a struggle. Mainly because there doesn't seem to be the same movement of instructors up the ladder.

All of last years instructors in Dundee have now got airline jobs.

At Aberdeen they had 8 instructors i think there is only 1 left now.

Highland last years full time instructor is now airline and the other part time instructor has just got a job flying a 406. The current full time instructor has now over 700 hours and is doing his IR MCC etc so would expect him to be off some time this summer with about 1200hrs under his belt.

Its all being willing to be fexible move to where the jobs are and working your arse off.

Apart from which Instructing is bloody good fun.

MJ

[finalsforbase]

thanx for clearing that up for me mad_jock. im very scared after reading this thread thats all... im due to start at ox within the next few months!!
i suppose i should just work as hard as i can then save up build some hours instructing as much as i can afford when i leave!
as for lofty he seems ok to the new recruits and quite helpful in that respect, hopefully their career department is sorted by the time i need it in 20 months or so-cos it doesnt sound that positive from reading this thread!!

[mad_jock]

See thats the beauty of instructing. Flying and being payed for it.

Other thing to note is that you should really want to instruct.
There is nothing worse than an Instructor that is a pure hour builder. Remember you are in the same position now as you punters to be. If you don't like the idea of instructing or find the thought of somebody throwing you at the runway doing their best to get the nose wheel down first, awful don't do it. But if like myself you get agreat buzz outa passing on the knowedge you have learned and being able to laugh and take the piss whatever the student does to you. Instructing is for you.

As for lofty he is a pleasant enough bloke who I presume is doing the best of a bad situation. In the current climate his job is proberly the worst in the place. All oxfords old customer base (ie airlines) is drying up.

for example.

BA, don't have to say much there.

BMI, more than enough Kiwi's and Aussies with passports from grandparents.

And the airlines who are expanding are run by people who don't know what the oxford product is or were modular/self improver themselves and prefer the self improver instructor development of a pilot.

And the others don't give a toss how you got your license as long as your CV has CPL/IR MCC on it.

So now that OAT old companys are falling on bad times they are struggling to produce the goods after you graduate.

And do you realise that if you did your groundschool full time while doing the modular you could actually get the whole lot done in about 11 months. It would be bloody hard work but would cost 75% of what OAT are charging for intergrated.

PPL 3 weeks.

Phase 1 - 6weeks self study 2 weeks brush up 1 week exams

Straight off to hour building after exams 50hrs - 3weeks

Phase 2 - 6 weeks self study 2 weeks brush up. 1 week exams

Wait to make sure you have all of the exams. 4 weeks

Finish off the rest of your hour building and do your MEP and night training in the the last 20 hours this also goes towards your 150 hours. 5 weeks

CPL/IR in which ever order you think suits. 10 weeks

MCC - 2 weeks

If you did your FI that would be another 8 weeks on top

so thats 37 weeks the biggest hurdle to keeping on time is the ground exams if you don't pass them first time its at least 8 weeks per resit which you would also have to do if you were intergrated.

At UK prices

PPL -4k
Hour build @70 quid an hour 100hrs 7k
Mep training 2.5K 5 hours of your hour build
Night .5k
Ground school 4k including exams
CPL 3k
IR 12K
Flight tests plus hire 3k
MCC 2k
FI 5k

So thats 43k for cpl/ir MEP and FI and say 8 k living expenses. which will proberly be less because ou can stay at home for the ground school.

So for 51k you can come out with more ratings more hours in your log book in nearly half the time of intergrated. And thats doing it all in the UK. If you decided to go to the US or SA the price will drop by about 5k.


MJ

[jarjam]

Having read this thread through from the beggining you can see that there has been a digression away from the original post.
I am not an ex-Oxford student but know many who went and I have never known so many people to have such a variety of complaints about an FTO, but thats another thread.
Seems to me that the "careers" department is a hollow promise purely there to glam up the appearence of OAT for potential punters.
I.E. "this building is where you do the training and if you go through that door, thats where we hand out the airline jobs afterwards". WHAT A LOAD OF BO***KS .
Unfortunately for Oxford the good old days of 509vBCPL are long gone and after a bit of a lag/histeresis the airlines now understand that however you obtained your license is of little importance (as long as you got one).
Time and time again I speak to people who have spent good time and effort researching the miriad of FTO's to get the best deal only to go to one of the big schools for fear of hindering there prospects of employment. If i'm perfectly honest I was a little unsure as to wether my decision was a good one to go modular.
I now know that my fears were unfounded and I am pleased that I listened to the advice of people who knew the REAL story and that I didn't fall for the glossy, epaulette wearing rubbish that is churned out in all the magazines with rediculous regularity!!!
As mad_Jock so very nicely said, the airlines are showing a trend for hiring instructors again rather than low hours pilots who havn't flown for 6 months or have done very little flying in say the last year.
At a rescent sim ride that I attended (and passed I am pleased to add) all four of the candidates were instructors with 1000+ hours there were no low hour guys present at all.
My point is be smart with your cash, do your training with good schools with good recommendations from past students and not ones that spend the most on advertising.
Without trying to sound patronising, OAT is a business and a very large one at that, you are effectively a number and once they've had your cash thats the end of the road as far as they're concerned. Don't fall for it, send c.v's, put yourself around, build your hours, make contacts, make your own luck and you'll find a job but don't think for a minute that Oxford give a toss about the individual student they dont!!!

JarJam:mad: :oh: :O

[finalsforbase]

jarjam and mad_jock i see your both flying instructors, it sounds rewarding, seeing others succeed from your teaching. How easy is it to get a job as a FI?
Are there many schools recruiting this at the moment? Is it just a case of asking around at the local smaller FTOs where theyre not as likely to demand high hours FI's?
As i said i'm off to OX so I will take your advice, and take advice from the Career people there but i understand its important to get out there yourself get the FI rating and apply to the airlines myself and keep my ears close to the ground!
Anyway sorry for going off topic people!

[mad_jock]

Well as Jarjam has just passed a sim check which is usually the last hurdle in getting a RHS on a pref A machine. We are actually both FO's now.

There are jobs out there but you have to do the foot work to get them. Emailing and Sending CV's out dosn't work you need to turn up looking the part at the school. And be willing to be treated like **** and under payed for a year or two. As the industry seems to be taking on 1000hr+ FI's there will be more jobs going. But they won't be advertised it will all be word of mouth or cold calls. And I know my old boss won't touch 50hrs+ instructing hours FI's with a barge pole, to much pain in the arse listening to "well at my last school we did it this way" "at my last school we couldn't send students solo in more than 15 knts" In fact the last instructor who got taken on had the job before he had even started his FI course.

Anyway this is the sort of stuff the career guy should be telling you at OAT. BUt then again they might not like the idea of one of there graduates flying a spam can.

Sorry for highjacking the thread a wee bit, but it really gets on my wick as a tight scotsman when marketing trys to pull the wool over customers eyes. The JAR system has changed everything and all that matters is the CPL/IR MCC at the end of the course. If OAT can't produce the goods with additional contacts to get your first foot on the ladder as far as i am concerned they havn't done what they have been payed for. And its really cheeky of them to try and use the customers that they have let down to gain information to support there marketing claims. When they had absoultly nothing to do with the pilot gaining employment.

MJ

And also the day my license came through the door, it was 5 mins between me signing it and my first flight as an instructor.

[flystudent]

Back to the original topic, interesting to note there is an advert in the jobs section of flight this week for an APP Graduate manager, or words to that effect. I'm sure they appointed one about 6 months ago, then he left and now they are advertising again.

[wheelbarrow]

The Commander

Bishkek and Addis Ababa.... well, maybe not because I would not know. However it IS a fact that many low hours FO's go straight from OATS and into say a 757 and then operate in to places like Girona, Heraklion, Samos (non handling) etc with the charters. All of which are challenging.

JarJam

I think you will find it does make a difference which school you went to. At least it does to people like CTC. And they hand out most of the jobs nowadays for their partner airlines...


From my point of view, I went to OATS in 99-00. I got all first time passes etc and was lucky enough to join jmc Airlines on the 757 (see above comments to The Commander) via CTC.

OATS in most of the world's opinion was struggling to maintain it's high standards then.

I cannot comment on them now.

All I would say is this: Do not rely on anyone else to help you get a job. Not Lofty, not anyone. Do your own homework and write letters and ring phones!

It amazes me quite frankly how poorly informed many people holding FATPL's are. The world will not come knocking. You really need to eat, sleep, p?ss, sh?t and f?ck aviation until you have enough hours in a two crew environment to not need to care anymore (usually one day before retirement).

It seems to me that here are jobs out there, it just means you have to hunt for them.

I cannot imagine why anyone would spend the best part of £75,000 on learning to fly and then think the hard work is done.

That said, good luck.