Operational Standd-own

[TheSeeFarShadow]

Apparently Ice Station Kilo is scrapping any standdown after Op Telic dets so that they can get the leave stats sorted. I know we're not officially entitled because we don't do it in a single '4 month block', just every year (or more) for the last x years ++ for two months at a time. Guess that doesn't count.

Anyone else in the same situation? i.e. sh1te local commanders

[covec]

...Senior Officers + THEIR precious careers + stats + "playing the game" = standby to be dumped on....

ever was, ever now, ever will be...

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Where I work we try to give a day off per weekend worked if the det doesn't qualify for Post Op Deployment Leave (PODL). But this cannot always be done if the continued task dictates that individuals need to be at work. Also, if an individual has made no attempt to use their leave, why shouldn't they be made to take leave? I make my folks use leave to attend the Ski Champs too, but if at the end of the Leave Year, they need more time off, and they have served on det and not have standdown, or I have asked them to lose leave in lieu of a exped, I will flex them some free time off.

All down to how busy your unit is - The old chesnut about the Boss being able to turn around and say no to any further commitmets is pie in the sky. If their Airships say jump, we still have to ask how high. Saying no will do nothing except p/ss/ng of their airships.

HPT

[Daf Hucker]

Perhaps you should tie this thread in with the one about the latest, crap RAF advert. Their Airships want to tell Joe Public how important the individual is and how much you are valued and cherished in the RAF!

:yuk:

[Mightycrewseven]

Oooooh, you are all heart.........

You dispicable waste of space! I hope I never have to work with you old chap.

VALUED! HA! I can't believe you make your personnel take their leave when they go on Expeds.

Listen very carefully......

IAW AP3342 Leaflet 1012: All personnel taking part on expeds are to be annotated as 'on duty.' Therefore, for legal reasons, personnel shall not be 'on leave' when participating on Expeds.

You as a Flt Cdr/Sect Hd etc. who asks personnel to to take leave for Expeds will be held accountable at any legal proceedings that may arise.

If you are just asking them to 'lose' leave in lieu then you are applying pressure on them to do something they really shouldn't be doing.

Expeds are one of the few decent privileges we have left in the armed forces. 'Losing' leave would discourage personnel to go on them, making your personnel feel very under-valued!

M7 :*

[StopStart]

HPT

Gotta agree M7 there. If you can't spare the guys time to go on exped then they can't go on exped.
Asking them to take leave is a) I believe, illegal (see above) and b) a bit crap.

I'm not an "exped" person myself, but as M7 says, expeds must be one of the few perks left for those that are.

If we worked for a caring sharing employer then somebody might be commenting on the amount of leave that is going untaken at the end of the leave year. But we don't so they're not.

PS. Please note this doesn't apply to me.
We ain't very busy at the mo :O

[Vage Rot]

Simply put in a leave application for the period that you are deployed!! Denied for Service reasons, next leave pass during Duty Sqn - Denied again. Don't take Block Leave - you don't have to (but expect SDO/Ord Sgt etc) and then redress your Boss at the end of the year!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

MCS and SS:ok:

You both beat me to it fella's and have pointed out the blindingly obvious!!............HPT, if this is a classic example of your man management skills you truely are a Nob:mad:.......... and the worst of it is, folks, I THINK I know who the idiot is.........god help the rotary world:yuk:

VR has got it in one, put in leave for when you want it, have it rejected for service reasons and then maybe, just maybe, your spineless promotion chasing bosses will see the so called "stats" change in your favour.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[tradewind]

HPT - Interested in your caring attitude to your 'folks'

What happens if one of them has an accident on the slopes during the 'RAF Ski Champs'?

I assume that because you have forced them to take leave to attend the championships, they are not on duty and therefore the RAF (including you) will not give a to$$ about their welfare.

Or will you flex them some free time off?.......

[insty66]

VR
HPT isn't the only one who applies those rules, my place of work also requires people on exped to put leave in, albeit only if it is their 2nd one in a year.
Unfortunatley your cunning plan doesn't work because all a difficult boss has to do is look through the leave book and find enough gaps in it where you could have taken your leave and deny you the carrying over to next year. We have been through it time again and again here, and as always you can't win.
If HPT is rotary I think we must be run by his dad and evil uncles:{
The best method is plan ahead if possible and try and make sure your desk gets on enough to let everyone get some leave when they want it ........... I know it's not always possible but it's probably as good as it gets:\

[SirToppamHat]

Agree whole-heartedly with the responses to HPT's message; whose only possible defence is that irresistable direction is coming from above ... hope you have it in writing HPT!

One other thing occurs; pers on Expeds are, I believe, entitled to certain allowances (cash for food (CILOR?) etc) or Service support (transport, accomm, PTI etc). Surely entitlement to these requires the individuals benefiting to be 'On Duty'. That being the case, are they committing or being encouraged to commit fraud?

Back to the original point, there does seem to be some variation in the way the stand-down periods are being applied at different Units. It seems to me that the deciding factor should be the nature and length of the detached employment. Most require Saturdays to be worked, some are on permanent rotating shifts, with only enough space between cycles for rest and doing the doby. Some enable detachees to take R&R, but some don't.

Surely it can't be beyond PMA to provide guidance?

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

I do not make people sign off on leave for expeds - as you have all said that is not permitted. I said I ask them to lose leave in lieu of time spent on exped, therefore, they all attend on duty. However, if they have loads of leave left and have not made any effort to plan ahead and use their leave, I do ask them to lose some in lieu. Likewise, if they have used/planned all their leave and want to go on an exped, well that's fine too, as long as we can spare them going.

As I have said, I flex people time off if require at the end of the season if needed, so what exactly is the problem?


Vage Rot has hit the nail on the head, plan ahead, get the passes signed and do not let the flt cdr throw them in the bin without signature. I sign all of the ones presented to me, approved or not. This is what we should be doing and then we may have better representation when PMA do the sums - at the moment there isn't a percieved problem because nobody follows this mantra.

ABIW - I think you know me better than that - You know where I am so call me.

STH

PMA do provide guidance on standdown - its called the PODL policy. Less than 2 months and you get knowt - perhaps I should apply this policy to the letter of the law as well since you all want to follow the regulations without any flexible interpretation/common sense.

HPT

[SirToppamHat]

HPT

I make my folks use leave to attend the Ski Champs too, but if at the end of the Leave Year, they need more time off, and they have served on det and not have standdown, or I have asked them to lose leave in lieu of a exped, I will flex them some free time off.

Hmmm perhaps some room for interpretation of your original comment, but I still don't think what you are doing is right.

As others have suggested, what people need to do is submit the passes and get them rejected, even to have a chance of carrying over more than the standard permitted. The fundamental problem with this argument is that it assumes next year will be better. With the current overstretch, this is simply not going to happen. Oh, and by the way, unless leave is for a booked (foreign) holiday, all long-term applications for leave at my Unit are held as provisional until a few weeks before it the leave is due to commence.

Perhaps block leave may help some people ... chance would be a fine thing on a 24/7 unit!

[Stan Bydike]

What is"provisional" leave. Surely once the leave pass is signed by the Flt Cdr then the leave is booked. The destination is irrelevant.

[earswentpop]

Cash in lieu of leave is probably never going to happen. Some people would probably abuse it for the cash when they really need leave. Why not keep a tally of leave lost for service reasons and apply it by counting back from a chap's retirement date? And not the poxy 15 days - all of it. Too simple? Too honest?

C@nts.

[Vage Rot]

Just to stir the pot of volatile liquid even further!!

What about weekends? We lost 12 days from our annual leave entitlement a few years ago as we don't work weekends anymore and so that time off can be taken as granted (Not required for duty).

Well, unless you are a Blunty, we do work weekends - and regularly, often without a day in lieu. (My worst period was 9 weeks without a clear weekend- and that was in the UK!)

Again, unless we put in leave passes for weekends then the Blunties that run our empire will never admit that there is a problem. Put the applications in and get them signed "Not approved". Its the only way, the boss might think you're taking the P!ss if you put in 52 weekends worth at once though!

Perhaps the Admin branch might be hit this time around in defence review? After all it must be the ONE branch that is just begging to be 'civillianised'.

I feel a big Rant coming on

[BEagle]

Don't the Canadians have that system? You carry forward all unused leave and retire early by the amount of lost leave? But you still get paid until the 'real' retirment date - including any pay rises etc. The system can't actually replace you until you've fully retired, so it isn't really a particularly clever strategy, more of a way of compensating people for short term manning deficiency induced embug.gerance.

When I PVR'd, I calculated my entitlements with great care. Refused even take any 'fill-in' days over the 2002-3 Christmas/New Year period but turned up in blunty-blues and did some paper pushing even though I knew damn well that there'd be no-one else in. Then finally had 4 fully-paid fully-entitled months of annual/terminal/resettlement leave enjoying the summer! Even got a pay rise...

Yes, leave and expeds need to be managed. The biggest problem I used to have when I was a deputy Flt Cdr was getting my chums to tell me what leave they wanted in sufficient time to do some forward planning. We had guidelines, so that we didn't have everyone away at once - I used to ask them to give me the dates of at least 4 of the 6 weeks annual leave they were entitled to as soon as they could, then up it went on the board. Birds and worms - first come, first served. The others then negotiated around the known plan before we fixed it. The other 2 of the 6 weeks they could sort out later - but we needed a certain minimum number to be present to keep things going. I then knew what my 'assets' were - and could identify well in advance when we could accept additional training tasks. Not popular with the "I want my golden child to do an early Co-Capt course so he'll get promoted sooner" type of sqn boss - but it worked very well and hardly any re-shuffling was ever needed.

It's a question of allocating tasks within the available assets; then no-one gets messed around and stupid knee-jerk 'management initiatives' can be robustly opposed on the evidence of staff availability. But Op Deny Christmas could always be guaranteed to wreck even our most careful plans!

[Vage Rot]

Beagle,

You should set yourself up as a consultant and visit Ice Station Kilo.!!

.............................on second thoughts, a sensible idea like your's would never catch on up there as they have 'always done it that way!'


:D

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

VR,
Keeps stating the bleedin obvious but until we ALL follow his lead nothing will change.

Instead of looking in the leave book to try and fit in with everyone else put a leave pass in for what YOU WANT:ok: If leave rejections keep hitting handbrake house the "stats" must change and maybe something will get done to sort this appaling situation out.

Your bosses supposition that you CAN ALWAYS get your leave may be right but how many of us can actually get all our leave in WHEN WE WANT IT, and until we make it blindingly obvious to Blunt Command how bad the situation is your only outlet will be to bleat about it on here.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[flyboy007]

Don't know the policy with regards to weekends with you chaps, but to "guarantee" a day off in a weekend, we must put in a leave pass, and include either the Friday or the Monday, therefore taking a days annual leave. Seems a little crap to me, that to have the best chance of getting my Saturday night, or whatever it may be, I have to use annual leave.

[SirToppamHat]

StanbyDike asked: "What is 'Provisional Leave'?"

First of all, it is a local procedure; it works well for us but won't suit other units.

Where I work, we have to provide a specified minimum number of people to be on duty, with appropriate levels of supervision (ranks from sgt up to wg cdr). We have a daily commitment, evening commitment and also a 24/7 commitment. So, some people will be on a 24/7 cycle, others working days (0900 - 1700) others working 1630 to midnight. Exceeding the minimum numbers is fine, but dropping below them is at best likely to cause us to be investigated by Gp, and at worst simply not permitted.

Training, detachments and postings are often not predictable more than a couple of mths ahead, and sometimes these require changes within a few hrs. As a result, our manning programme always looks great in about 6 mths time, with loads of people available and plenty of opportunity for leave, but in the short term we are often barely able to meet the minima.

So what is this 'Provisional Leave' thing?

Given the manning shortages at my Unit, there is always the danger that leave booked well in advance may need to be cancelled (for Service Reasons). We do not want people to make firm plans only to have the leave cancelled closer to the time, so what happens is that Leave Passes are submitted in the normal way, and details are recorded on the manning roster (actually a huge Excel Spreadsheet) in yellow. The Pass is placed on a clip file under the month in which the leave is due to commence. All manning decisions are made taking account of the provisional leave, and about 4-6 wks before the leave commences, the pass is retrieved and, if still OK, signed off. The Leave Roster is changed to red, meaning leave is confirmed. Obviously this can never be a cast iron guarantee, but it's as good as it gets.

People who want to book holidays well in advance are treated in a similar way, but given a higher priority. So, if I am looking ahead and need to cancel leave for someone, I would usually look to cancel the local leave before the foreign holiday leave. Other good reasons for higher priority might include attending a wedding or some such. We are simply using the system so that the whole of a 2-wk holiday is not cancelled for a single day's duty when someone else might be planning to take their leave to to lie in bed all day.

All that said, in the 18 mths I have been doing the job, I have never yet had to cancel leave except for an operational detachment.

By the way, do any other units out there prevent pers taking leave if they are not up to date with CCS/RAFFT etc?

Flyboy007

That is absolutely crap, and I suggest you raise the issue with pers admin staffs. I have experienced resistance from some blunties in processing leave passes for 2 days of NRD ... I guess putting the one day of Annual makes it all worthwhile for them, or is the limitation placed by your own line management?

That said, I know some individuals who want to put in aleave pass for every weekend, and I have asked people where I am not to do this without good reason. A bit of give and take helps to spread the sh@t duties around so everyone does their share.

Where the current system doesn't work well for us is when there are regular shift workers. Our cycle is 2 days, 2 nights 4 off (actually one sleeping day 3 off). This means that people work 48 hours in every 8 days, equivalent to a 42-hr week. Compared to a day-worker working 0800-1700, which is a 45-hr week. Given the early stack most Fridays at about 1500 for day-workers, and the fact that dental and med appts, along with CCS etc are taken by shift workers on their 'days off', it all works out about equal. However, shift working is a killer, and some of our people do it for a couple of years at a stretch.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

STH,
Started off well then fell to bits:p

"That said, I know some individuals who want to put in aleave pass for every weekend, and I have asked people where I am not to do this without good reason. A bit of give and take helps to spread the sh@t duties around so everyone does their share"

F@ck give and take see mine and VR's previous posts:} If your guys apply for leave and you cancel it for service reasons the frig@in "stats" must change.

"Where the current system doesn't work well for us is when there are regular shift workers. Our cycle is 2 days, 2 nights 4 off (actually one sleeping day 3 off)" So let me get this right you work for 4 days and then have 4 days off..........and that's hard:yuk: I suggest you have a look at some of the other posts on this site to see just how well off you are.

10 line 1975 ....3 days followed by 3 nights then 6 days off.............fan fu@in tastic....you guys have no idea:mad:

all spelling mistakes are "df2 alcohol induced

[insty66]

It doesn't matter what you or I want, as I said before an awkward boss can just look at the leave book and say "you could have had leave then" and you are stuffed; you can not beat that.
I think it wrong and unfair but that is how it is.
Putting in leave passes knowing you will get them rejected only works if there are sufficient opportunities elsewhere in the year.
As mentioned before the only way to ensure a weekend off is to put in a 2 NRD pass but if you are supposed to work a wekend do you suddenly become "required for duty"? hope not as that would then cost you 2 days annual:*
This leave scheme was obviously designed for 8-5, mon-fri staff as it makes no sense to any shift worker.

Perhaps the Admin branch might be hit this time around in defence review? After all it must be the ONE branch that is just begging to be 'civillianised'.
It won't happen not whilst they do the paper work for said changes................................pity really I for one would love to see the admin world brought to account or better still made subject to the same quality standards the rest of us have to work to. .................pay correct every month or a bonus the next month for the affected person taken from the wage of OC PMS bet I wouldn't still be searching 7 months later for money owed from a det/trail or whatever :*

[SirToppamHat]

Wow Broken in Wilts, really hit a nerve there - not intended, but also not looking for the sympathy vote! Although the system is described as 2d/2n/4off, it's actually closer to 5 on 3 off.

Typical Cycle for my specialisation:

Mon 0630-1700
Tues 0630-1700
Wed 1630-
Thur -0700
Thur 1630-
Frid -0700 then sleep!
Sat Off
Sun Off
Mon CCS/IDT/Grd Trg/RAFFT/Med/Dent/etc etc?
Tue 0630-1700 repeat ad infinitum

I don't believe this is a particularly bad work cycle, though obviously it depends how hard you are working on the shifts. there was a move a couple of years ago to reduce the number of days off, but this made the cycle 7 days long, so people on weekends worked them forever!

As always, there are the standing dets to Falklands TELIC etc.

As for Insty 66's comment, the answer is yes... and no. A shift-worker's leave pass would start (example above) with 3 days NRD, then, depending on the length of the break, either 5ann/3NRD or a reversion to the 5ann/4NRD experienced by day workers.

I don't know what exactly would be achieved by people submitting leave passes 2xNRD for every weekend except to indicate a lack of commitment to the Unit, unwillingness to be a team player and any number of other phrases that people generally don't want to see on their annual assessments. It would also lead rapidly to direction from above that the practice was to cease; worst of all (and the best argument against it) is that it would make it impossible to see which applications were for good reasons (weddings etc) rather than going shopping!

We are a 24/7 organisation. We do our best to meet individual requirements.

I dread to think what would happen if the blunties were replaced by uncivil servants or sub-contracted out.