Specifying the routing to an alternate.

[Field In Sight]

Hi,

I've been digging about unsuccessfully information regarding the route you would follow to an alternate airport.

For example:
1. I take off and soon after have a radio failure.
2. It's IMC all the way, so I proceed as filed to the destination.
3. I then make an approach followed by a misssed approach due to low cloud.

I then want to proceed to the alternate.

I assume that in most cases it would be a nearby airfield and I would fly destination fix to alternate fix, but what if the routing was a little more complicated, what would ATC expect me to do?

Thanks.

FIS.

[brimstone]

Hi FIS - in relation to many aerodromes in the UK which lie inside controlled airspace you would not be permitted simply to fly to the fix of your alternate under the circumstances that you describe.

If you could not land within 30 minutes of leaving the destination holding fix to commence your approach (later if you could land visually) then you would have to leave controlled airspace by a route specified in the AIP and land elsewhere. This is commonly known in ATC circles as the "bog off" procedure.

[Field In Sight]

Hmmm, that doesn't give me a nice fuzzy feeling inside.

So how does a passenger jet handle the situation if for example it was on it's way to Manchester with Birmingham as an alternate.

It can't land at Manchester for whatever reason but it lost comms before making the approach to Manchester. How does it continue to Birmingham.

Sorry to sound a bit stupid, but it's not obvious to me what should then happen.

FIS

:confused:

[caniplaywithmadness]

Basically it can't, as has been saind the pilot would follow the " bog off " procedure and land at the nearest "suitable" airlfield outside of CAS, and there are plenty out there that can handle any sized passenger jet. One is even a diversion for the Space Shuttle (should she ever fly again).

[NigelOnDraft]

caniplaywithmadness

The scenario here is:
1. RT Failure
2. Weather induced Diversion...

You said:
as has been saind the pilot would follow the " bog off " procedure and land at the nearest "suitable" airlfield outside of CAS, and there are plenty out there that can handle any sized passenger jet How many of these airfields are CAT 3 equipped??

It's a good question. I am not sure what I would do - the rules cannot cope with multiple failure scenarios - but with the multitude of comms methods (ACARS, Mobile Phone, Transponder) something "sensible" would have to be applied...

NoD

[Spitoon]

The UK RTF failure procedures were amended in September 02. The current procedures appear to recognise that the bogg off bit is not really practical for big aircraft flying in a sophisticated ATC environment and the very specific 'bog off' bit now seems to have gone.

The assumption is that if an IFR aircraft goes communication failure then ATC will watch it like a hawk and get everything else out of its way. If it goes around at its flight planned destination it will be monitored - there'll probably be good money on it heading straight for its nominated alternate but any suitable airport that is in the direction it's heading in will be alerted.

As NoD points out, this really is a multiple failure/emergency situation and the procedures can only go so far - after that it's down to sensible decisions based on professional experience and judgement being applied with ATC offering any facilities that may help the pilot.

[FWA NATCA]

Field in Sight,

Talk about an interesting senario. In the U.S. as a controller I don't know what your alternate is, and if you filed via DUATS or some other service other than FSS, I have no clue how to find out what your alternate was.

If you were IFR, lost com, and at the appropriate time shot the approach and missed, I would expect you to execute the published missed approach and hold. Now what happens? You are IFR, NORDO, primary destination is below minimums.

I would expect you to fly via whatever method that your aircraft is capable of, at an appropriate altitude, to where ever your filed alternate was. In the meantime, I'm going to try to figure out what your alternate is, and I will try to give that facility a heads up that you are coming, and monitor your flight.

Situations like this have almost occured where I work, but the pilot or one of the passengers had a cell phone so we were able to direct the pilot to an airport that had better weather conditions.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[Field In Sight]

I do realise that on your average large passenger aircraft it is very unlikely to have all methods of comms out at the same time and at least 50% of people on board have a mobile phone.

Also, I am sure that the probability of comms failure combined with an inability to land at the destination is quite low, but there are lots of flights, so it must happen.

A big reason for having a flight plan is so ATC knows what the aircraft is going to do next. That is why I thought it would make sense to at least have a pre-declared route to follow to the alternate.

FIS.

I'm just off to put my phone on charge :D

[eyeinthesky]

Quite apart from the intricacies already described, I would point out that if you had been out of radio contact for as long as this scenario suggests, you would probably find that you have a couple of fast jets alongside the cockpit window who will show you where they want you to go anyway...!:eek: ;)

[saintex2002]

...So don't forget to paint the mobile phone number of this mil jets pilots on their own aircraft !!!! ;) ;) ....EASYJET NO ???

[brimstone]

Spitoon - agree in principle with most of your reply but there are still specified "bog-off" procedures for certain airfields. For example at Heathrow an aircraft experiencing radio failure which has carried out a missed approach and cannot subsequently land is required to leave either Epsom NDB or Chiltern NDB on a track of 270T and proceed elsewhere.

I know that other airports eg Gatwick and Birmingham have similar requirements.

Having said all this I know that ATC would adopt a sensible and pragmatic approach in order to cover the various actions that a crew might opt for, but unless there was some other event to be factored in eg fuel shortage, in which case a change from radio-failure squawk to emergency squawk would be appropriate, I would expect the aircraft to.....well.....bog off.

:confused: :confused:

[Spitoon]

Fair point brimstone - I should have mentioned that individual airports may still have specific procedures to be followed.

The full UK procedure is here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ATS013.pdf) - without needing to log on or anything daft like that - if anyone wants to read it.

[TD&H]

A variation on this theme:

(i) What to do following ATC giving a direct to a waypoint not on your flight plan (yes it does happen, UK and Europe), then having a comms failure? Where to next after that waypoint?

(ii) Also if you are going to give us a direct to not on my flightplan, (yes it can and does help shorten my routing, so thank you) please tell us the next waypoint so we can either find it in our plan, our at least feed it into the FMS and keep going in the direction you want us to.

Not asked to gripe, but to (i) know where to go, (ii) make my life easy and yours because I won't keep asking you where next/please spell name of waypoint not on my flight plan.

[Yankee_Doodle_Floppy_Disk]

(i) What to do following ATC giving a direct to a waypoint not on your flight plan (yes it does happen, UK and Europe), then having a comms failure? Where to next after that waypoint?

Where I work, direct routing must either be to a point in the Flight Planned Route, or further instructions must be given to a point in the Flight Planned Route (or the destination, whichever comes first).

Of course the Aussies have got this sussed. The management there have forbidden them to issue direct routing. :hmm:

[StillDark&Hungry]

Quite simply;

If we give you a direct that you think is not on your filed route - then tell us, and we can tie the 2 together;)

Don't forget it is possible, even probable, that your FMS is telling you something totally different than our flight planning units are telling us! so we may not know that a direct routing given may not be on the expected route:confused: :confused: :confused:

Just read that 4 times - maybe not such a simple reply:O

SD&H

[Busdrvr]

I am not sure requirments in other places. But, in the US, flying part 121, we have the route to our alternate filed. ATC also has this, so they know your intentions. I don't know if this is the same for part 91 or 135.

[Field In Sight]

Busdrvr,

That is exactly what I would have thought you should do.
I have a FAA Private/IR and have not seen anywhere obvious on the FAA or ICAO flightplan form to indicate a suitable place for specifying the routeing!!!

How do you do it?

Thanks,

FIS

[TD&H]

SD&H

Thanks for your comments, but we do let you know its not on our flight plan if that happens. But sometimes when its a dark grotty night, in the climb, doing checks, having looked at our FMS to search for that waypoint I didn't quite hear correctly, not finding it, busy ATC, then getting a word in to say. It can be quite a bit of time before we have a chance to liaise with you guys to say 'Tis not on our flightplan', meanwhile we're probably going in a direction you didn't want us to.

I'm kind of surprised that if you give us a direct it doesn't flag on your computers to show whether it is on our approved flightplan or not.

As I said its not a gripe, I want to make sure we're going where you want us to, and that we can be pro-active in keeping ahead of things.

My big concern with the scenario I put at the top of this post is that a small bizjet, every bit as quick as an airliner, could be being flown single crew. Often going on one-off flights, rather than regular routes the airlines fly, and, perhaps, ATC is assuming all flights going that way are as familiar with the usual shortcuts given as the regulars. Then it does become a one-armed paper hangers act, trying to fly, navigate, find a point on a chart in a poorly lit cockpit, then get a word in edgeways to ask where next.

But whether big airliner or small bizjet, it all adds to the chances of a levelbust or some other unwanted happening.

I'm trying to share with you guys (and gals) on the ground a bit of feedback from us in the skies to compare notes.

Regards TD&H

[FWA NATCA]

Busdrvr,

You are mistaken, in the event of a MA, I have no clue what your alternate is, or what your route would be to your alternate.

You may file an alternate with your flight plan, but that information is not shared (printed on your flight progress strip)
with the controllers, unless the pilot gives it to us. Even if I do a Full Route of your flight plan your alternate information won't be in our NAS computer.

So as you can see that standby transciver that every good pilot has in their flight bag (or hopefully you have a cell phone) would come in very handy should a total come failure occur.

Mike
NATCA FWA