Hoon is "sorry"

[propulike]

I can't believe the gall of the man. He seems to think that being sorry and saying that Ministers sent 36000 sets of body armour to theatre makes everything OK.

BBC News story on Sgt Roberts (killed without Body Armour) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3401879.stm)

My thoughts are with Sgt Roberts' widow. My wife cried listening to the tape he'd made just before his death - he knew he was poorly equipped but carried on anyway. Bravery that is being betrayed by the lack of moral fibre being shown by those more 'senior'.

[Flytest]

Propulike:

I agree with you 100% mate, sadly the truth is and has been for years that our defence forces are permanently ill equipped for the task, but the boys and girls still get up and get on with it.

Its a massive compliment to the character of the personnel, past and present, and unfortunately future of the armed forces that they do the job under such conditions.

This time though, lack of equipment has directly cost a man his life.. needlessly, and in full glare of the public.

Hoon should do the decent thing and resign, but everyone involved in the budget and decision making process from Hoon down, has this guys blood on their hands. I hope they can all live with their consciences.

Once and for all GIVE OUR PEOPLE THE EQUIPMENT, PERSONNEL AND FUNDING TO DO THE DAMN JOB, OR DON'T SEND THEM TO DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. :mad:


Rant over.

[tony draper]

I think they are hanging on to Hoon so he can take the dive when this other report comes out, he will probably ask for other cases to be taken into concideration, wipe the slate clean for the next chap.
Don't know what he has been offered but it must be something good.
Lord Hoon anybody?

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

Radio 2 interview and Bafoon this lunchtime admits responsibility for minor failings in equipment supplies in the Gulf Really! Gosh!
But still claims the logistics operation a great success, perhaps he means the unfortunate repatriation of those killed in action!
Those “minor” failings have cost lives, when will those in power ever wake up to the reality of that.
If we were a true business, although budgetary it feels like we are, he as CEO would be hauled before the courts by the H&S Exec for failing to provide adequate protection to employees. I for one, as have most of the forces personnel, have a “can do” approach which unfortunately is what government relies on.
Falklands, GW1 all had the same problems and we were promised never again.
I'll await the rehashed version from this lot.
:rolleyes:

[BillHicksRules]

It has been said by many that today’s British fighting man/woman may not be up to the level of past generations, I disagree. It is my feeling that the levels of professionalism and bravery shown by those who fought in the service of this country over the last 25 years are a continuance of a proud tradition.

There should be a vote of no confidence in the MOD and the Blair administration over the handling of the conflict in Iraq. I do not mean the “should we or should we not have invaded question”. I mean at a more basic level. We sent out troops in harm’s way woefully ill equipped. As was stated on the BBC by a pundit this morning, this was not a snap war. This was planned well in advance and yet we still could not get enough basic items to the right places at the right times.

I am not clear on the MOD’s duty of care towards those in uniform but I would hate to think that this situation was deemed “an acceptable result of war”.

Hoon has to go, there is no other course of action. If Blair has any common decency, he should go to but that is a faint hope.

Britain has the best trained, most professional and most loyal armed forces in the world. They deserve the best.

I must stop here as the more I write the angrier I get. I am finding it increasingly difficult to verbalise my feelings on this subject.

Cheers

BHR

[Gainesy]

Lord Trenchard's Brat wrote:
I for one, as have most of the forces personnel, have a “can do” approach which unfortunately is what government relies on.

I would amend the last few words to read:
"...what this government repeatedly takes advantage of."

And "Sorry" is just not good enough when people are killed.
:mad:

[propulike]

After listening to the interview on Radio 2 with Jeremy Vine, Buff is claiming the logistics effort, kitting levels etc a great success!

God help us if we ever get a failure.

There were plenty of 'phone calls from serving personnel and reservists stating how much they'd spent of their own cash to make up for shortfalls in kitting levels, and of basic equipment simply not being available to deploy (medics especially concerning). I don't know anyone who hasn't 'bought their own' kit. Are Buff et al trying to tell us that we haven't?!!!

It's real people, real lives, real families. Our Minister needs to stand up for us, not hide behind unrealistic reports whilst minceing about accepting cut after cut after cut.

Good luck on Monday Mrs Roberts. And God Bless.

[Talking Radalt]

He also said on Radio2:
"British servicemen should never have to buy their own kit"

Sorry but if it's a choice between standing in the rain moaning about what we didn't get issued or standing in the rain moaning about having had to buy it ourselves, then I'm afraid I'll spend a bit of cash every time.
After all, moan all you like, it won't stop raining. Obviously it's unfortunate that the majority have to self-equip but what else are they gonna do, and I suspect HMG know this and exploit it to the max.
Guess what it'll take is a mass revolt with everyone refusing to go somehwere until they get the right kit....
And Satan will be skating to work before that happens.

So... so far we've got Hoon on kit shortages that cost lives, a dodgy dossier that casts a shadow over the whole GWII and a crap advertising campaign.
I hope Geoff's able to "feel this valued" in a couple of weeks!

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

If you buy your own kit/tools to carry out your "job" then why not submit a claim to the IR. Should make a few people wake up. One guy worked out he's spent over £2000 on kit in the last few years, mainly for Gulf ops. That would be quite a few beer vouchers if the tax relief was claimed. ;)

[jayteeto]

Resign..... NOW!
That means quit, not put your signature there again.

As an aside, people are talking about kit not being available. It used to be that it was there, but useless for the intended task. Has this improved? My issue pro boots were great, but my flying kit was poor quality. I now fly with a wonderful police leather jacket, which is warm, hardwearing and smart. Now there's an idea.......

[Regie Mental]

On the radio this morning (Radio 5) Buff stated that there were 36,000 sets of body armour in theatre. I am incredulous that a guy in a tank in the front line didn't have body armour whilst I, way way way back in the rear, was not allowed to fly into Kuwait Internat from out of theatre for 2 hours unless I had armour with me!

I for one get a bit annoyed at people always calling for ministers' heads. The most notorious of these was of course Two Jags who did so after every rail crash and indeed after Lockerbie. However in this instance I think he should go and fail to see why he doesn't have the backbone and moral fibre to do so. How does he sleep at night?

Reg:*

[Scud-U-Like]

There are two issues here. Firstly, the supplying of essential (ie potentially life-saving) kit, such as body armour, for which there can be no excuse for a shortage of and, secondly, the incidentals we buy, because we prefer them to some of the (sometimes inadequate, sometimes unpleasing) stuff we are issued with.

Was Sgt Roberts failed by Geoff Hoon or by commanders in the field, or both? I'd like to see the final report before making any judgment. If things were rushed, to the extent the kit could not be brought forward in time, someone must be held accountable for that.

The forces should introduce a pre-deployment allowance. This would cover all the kit and caboodle we find it necessary to buy prior to being detached on OOA ops. I would suggest a figure of £500.

Samantha Roberts is a woman of great dignity and tenacity. One can only admire and salute her courage and resolve. I wish her all the very best.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Of course his bl@@dy commanders let him down. They are, afterall political animals atempting to climb the greasy promotion pole on the way to the top. Hands up any of you in here who have recently heard a plethora of SENIOR officers ranting at and about HMG in any public forum...........not many hands on veiw:mad: :mad:

However we are without doubt our own worst enemies as we strive to make do with the appaling level of underfunding we all live with today. Bought about by some extremely clever bean counter who came up with the bright idea of divolving budgetry responsibility...........fuc@in strokers:mad: ......please excuse but it makes my blood boil. We now have, and have suffered for it over many years, the scenario where some promotion minded bloggs knows that by trimming some more off already far to lean annual budget he will be seen to be saving money. This sort of frugal awareness is loved by those above who also bask in this financial madness as they all strive to grasp the afore mentioned pole..............the saddest part of it is it will never ever stop......god help us and all the Sgt Robert's of this pis@ poor situation we find ourselves in.

However rest assured that all of this is just whinging, which apparantly our lords and masters think is all we are good at.

For Mrs Roberts I have a suggestion. She should write a personal letter to Tony Bliar and ask the patronising tw@t if he would have been happy or even willing to send Leo or any of his other jug eared kinder to war along side her husband with the same pi@@ poor level of equipment..............wonder if he would have the spine to answer that honestly :mad:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[steamchicken]

Hoon is indeed sorry - a sorry mess...a sorry excuse for a minister....make up yer own

[Kiting for Boys]

Only an outside observer but…

1. Didn’t the MoD/HMG decide not to procure lots of equipment lest it look like they were pre-empting the whole thing. So politicians are most to blame for whole sorry equipment mess. Even if it was ‘in theatre’ it wasn’t where it needed to be in time.

2. Didn’t the Management at the sharp end have to decide to take body armour from tank troops to give it to infantry because not enough useful kit was getting to the front line – it was striking watching the footage to note the numbers of black boots and green clothing worn by forward troops compared with the desert booted people in the rear.

[NURSE]

tankies weren't the only ones stripped of CBA

[Impiger]

Hoon as the man at the top will have to take responsibility. But for those who understand MOD and Whitehall the real blame lies firmly with the Civil Servants who 'advise' Ministers and really call the shots over where money is spent and what our 'policy' is. So if we're having a firing squad I'd like to line up a few 'officials' who are always quick to point out that Ministers make the decisions!

[Rude C'man]

I am with Mrs Roberts. I have always had to purchase kit to 'see me through' until the supply chain kicks in. The internal audit reported that there was no problem with the supply chain , thats news to me! I have experienced problems on every op' in the last 7 yrs ! keep fighting the labour Gov is full of false promises.

[Captain Gadget]

Of course, holding stocks of body armour that (it might be alleged) are sufficient for major ops would be considered unsporting.

Granted, mass purchasing activity in the defence procurement marketplace at such a time would have provided an unforgiveable intelligence opportunity to the enemy...

...but it doesn't explain why we didn't have enough kit for our boys and girls in the first place.

Gadget :mad:

[BEagle]

Given the thought processes of most in the procurement system, an urgent order for 30 000 pairs of snow shoes would have been more indicative to Mr S Hussein that HM's finest were about to launch Operation Kick Ar$e 2 in the Great Sandtray.

Remember GW1. Arrived in September 90, started war 13 years ago this very night, finished in early March. Got desert DP to go with Muharraq souk-sourced Chinese desert wellies....2 days before flying home on 13 Mar 91. And only got those because a stores basher owed us a favour!

Still, BuffHoon has said sorry. So that's OK then.....

[tony draper]

I remember reading many years ago, well not that many actually, that the MOD Civil Servants had a couple of huge heated warehouses with appropriate staff stuffed to the rafters with saddles stirrups horse blankets panniers carts collars and other assorted horsey paraphanalia,that been in existance since 1900 or so, just in case the military decided to reform the Light Brigade one assumes.
Bit of a scandle about it at the time,pity they dont keep a similar one filled with body armour.

[propulike]

There may have been sufficient stocks of body armour just not given out in advance in case the boys kept them :confused: or a large shortage. Either way, this wasn't an unexpected attack on Britain by an enemy force. This was a pre-planned operation by a coalition we were a part of. If we weren't ready we should have waited 'til we were (desert temperatures included). To claim that to have done otherwise showed the deployment to be a success is spin at its most obscene.

Mrs Roberts has done all in the forces a massive service by having the courage to release the highly personal tapes her late husband recorded. It's a shame her strength of charachter isn't reflected in those far higher in the decision making process who have failed her husband.

[Guern]

Yet again as an outsider I am horrified but feel involved because as a Channel Islander despite our small population a surprising number of people join the the UK forces and the UK is responsible for our defence. We contribute in various financial ways to defence as well as personnel, currently and in previous wars.

We don't vote for the UK government but I hate the way they leave you guys without adequate kit, I imagine all the civil servants in the UK get all the stationery & freebies they need but you guys at the sharp end lack equipment.

If a beancounter in UK doesn't get his freebies or a calculator he wont die, you will.

God bless you all.

Hoon & blair should quit.

I can't help but think Hoon is being saved to be used as a fall guy later to save Blair.

[NURSE]

the argument they are now putting forward is that there was sufficient kit in theatre and it was the army who didn't distribute it.
The fact that the build up was delayed by the decision to go being left far to late. Reason to keep splits in the labour party to a minimum. The audit office report states clearly and they make a bik issue of more personnel and equipment moved in less time well there is a peanlty for this and that is the logistic system can't cope with the volume of kit/pax arriving. Speaking to a loggie during the consolidation phase in Iraq he said on his staff course he was taught the thing that went wrong on GW1 and looking at GW2 we made exactly the same mistakes.

[Maple 01]

Not that I like Buff, (wasn't he in CND round about the time I was keeping the pinkos out of camp?) or want to make excuses for logistical cock-ups, but Let's not pretend cr@p kitting and equipment is a new problem or an exclusively British phenomenon.

Back in the 80's the flack jackets we used to get issued with weren’t exactly much use at stopping anything more than a strong breeze, did you see Heseltine offering his resignation every time some poor sod got blown away? What was the answer to the requests for Kevlar? Costs too much......

Our forbears had to fly in obsolete aircraft, (look at the loss rates for Blemheims or the RFC for April 1917) were there calls for the War Minister's resignation?

Have a look at len Deighton's 'Declarations of War' there is an interesting tale about a soldier from antiquity complaining about his kit....

Historically the politicians of whatever shade haven't put us first, and never will. I don't approve, but it's a fact of life.

Regards

-nick

[Jimlad]

Interestingly I had a chat with a US colleage the other day who when we discussed in depth what we thought of Mr Hoon told of the horrendous shortages suffered by Uncle Spams finest during the Gulf. He was there and had a lot of kit missing and didnt get the right number of flak jackets etc. It wasnt just us that had problems.

As for Hoon - has there ever been a SecDef more loathed by all three forces at the same time? I know the Navy doesnt exactly like John Nott, but Hoon seems to be the most unpopular one I can remember.

[Arkroyal]

Yes Beags, or was it just like GW1, when the REMFS paraded about in all the kit they seemed unable to deliver to the sharp end?

[Maple 01]

As for Hoon - has there ever been a SecDef more loathed by all three forces at the same time?

Nicholas Soames?

[Beermonkey]

As a 'youngster' enjoying my first frontline tour still keen and raring to go, I feel a sense of absolute dismay at the attitudes of our political lords and masters, not only those that sit in the House of Commons. I am proud that we have a 'can do' approach to what we are called upon to do, I think that is what stands us apart from other Armed forces in the World. But it seems clear to me that the reason the Government enjoys the prestige it gets from HM Forces is because of this attitude, not because of any political will to do what is right for us. I'm sure that Sgt Roberts' case is just the tip of the iceberg and if the truth be known, many more heads would be on the block.
I truely hope that in 10 years time I will still be as enthusiastic as I am now, although I am beginning to understand some of the 'old and bold' crewroom banter/despondancy.
All our thoughts and prayers with the families of those who have given their lives in this conflict.

[Talking Radalt]

...and with near-Buffhoon style timing, we got told the other day by Joe SWO that the new "smooth finish" v-neck jumpers are now old and "ARE NOT" to be worn after Feb 1st, to be replaced by the new, ploughed-field pattern of round-neck jumper.
Thing is, when the smoothies came in, I remember actually saying "If I leave it long enough before changing my old jumper, the new ones'll be obsolete and I can just wear me old one again!" :D
And lo, less than ten years later, a budget already stretched as thin as Vanessa Feltz bikini bottoms has been wasted introducing ANOTHER BL@@DY JUMPER for the blunties.
:suspect:

Condolences and best wishes to Mrs Roberts.

[Cheeks]

Summit else he needs to be 'sorry' for;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3406445.stm

(Appologies if someone else got here first)

[BEagle]

Although his smug arrogance and insincere lack of remorse are utterly unforgiveable, I'm not sure that it's just BuffHoon who is to blame.

When their Airships were more concerned about what colour of cummerbund people were wearing at Dining In Nights than seemingly anything else, the pins started to come out of my personal handles....

[WorkingHard]

Beagle - well put sir. It may be the politicians who decide on what the armed forces actually do but it is the commanders who put it all into practise and it is they who must bear the rsponsibility for lack of anything. Will the tank brigade go in without their tanks? Will the **sqn of harriers go without their aircraft? Of course not because the senior officers would be made a laughing stock. Now just because it is something less obvious (like body armour) they think it may not matter and in any case it is not for them to upset their politcal masters by being there for their men. It might just stop the next gong or peerage. Cynical - yes. True - you tell me.

[MrBernoulli]

Is it just me or did anybody else notice what I thought was a glaring discrepancy throughout the TV coverage of Gulf War 2? The senior British commanders in Quatar were always wearing complete sets of desert DPM although the only time they were ever near sand was when moving from their airconditioned HQ to their airconditioned accomodation. All of them!

Move to the camera shot of infantry troopies etc under fire in Iraq with a mish-mash of temperate DPM and self purchased kit. It made my blood boil every time I saw it.

I also recall a troopie on BFBS TV, instead of saying hello to his wife and kids like most were doing, angrily demanding that she send him some boots that didn't melt in the desert heat.

Adequate kit sent to the frontline? My @rse!

[sangiovese.]

Lets not forget that Hoon has not apologised for the death. He has said he was "sorry SSgt Roberts had died", he did not accept responsibility for the death - big difference. He used again on Radio 4 (friday am) the weasley lawyer skills that were in evidence the last time I had the misfortune to meet him whilst I was in the service.

The MoD has a lot to answer for in the logistics mistakes of TELIC. I deny anybody to say they went with all the correct kit. But right or wrong, that is all part of being in the military and always will be.

The big part is that as the man at the top, Hoon cannot accept ultimate responsibilty for gross mistakes. That is the way of the weasel. If he was 1% of the man that those who have served and died in the Gulf were, he would fall on his sword.

Enough said. i look forward to the day the weasel goes.

[NURSE]

ok i'm going to light touch paper here

why should it be like that?

Why should the military with alarming regularity be deployed into harms way without the proper kit?

Just because its always been like that doesn't make it right.

I think that our seniors and elected representitives need to be made alot more accountable for their actions and ommissions. I am professionally accountable as a nurse so why shouldn't they be?

[sangiovese.]

Nurse,

Couldn't agree more with you. Problem is it's not a perfect world. The rot begins at the top and is visible throughout the core of the services.

I hope the NAO reports do, for a change make a difference. I doubt it, but would love to be proven wrong. Governmental defence papers should make these basic omissions a greater priority than they are. But none of us foresaw the next conflict being fought in the desert did we?:uhoh:

[WSOPWannabe1]

Faulty Radios, Desert boots that melt in the desert, faulty guns, huge cost-cutting, a defence secretary who cares more about himself than his armed forces, not enough body armour?? What the hell is happening? Hoon has to go. Period.:*

[propulike]

Another widow speaks out...... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3407489.stm)

Obviously we can't expect to go to war zones in Military vehicles now they've all been scrapped in defence cuts to 'improve operational effectivness' :yuk: , although I seem to remember that wearing body armour was optional at the time of this incident for liason reasons and the temperature. Don't know enough about the incident to comment further except to pass condolences to all the grieving relatives.

[Flytest]

Just a short one, in reference to an earlier post..

As you all know, we can sound off to our hearts content, but the voice of the troops on the ground will never be heard or adhered to by the promotion chasing f***wits further up the command and supply chain. The UK armed forces will always "Will-do, can-do, make-do" and HMG will always take the p***.

We also know that we can never really vote with our feet, or take any kind of action to make them sit up and take notice.

It may be a futile response, but in Samantha Roberts, I think we have a woman of remarkable dignity, strength and courage, may I suggest that rather than rant away annonymously to each other (We all know the score, and share the same view), why not get the voice of the unheard majority, and put it right alongside that of Samantha Roberts?? God knows she deserves all the support and backing she can get. At the end of the day SSGT Roberts was "One of us", he could be any one of you????

As for Buff... drop dead you spineless ar$ehole.

[Arkroyal]

Here's one reason for the lack of basic kit in times of conflict:

When I left the RN ten years ago, I was hounded to the tune of a letter (now framed in my downstairs bog) asking for £78 for 'two items of lost flying clothing'

When I moved house recently I discovered full desert DPMs, never signed for in GW1 (feel very guilty about that, after seeing poors bug*ers without it last year) and several bits of Falklands gear, again, not signed for, but handed out willy nilly 'in theatre'.

It's no wonder the NAO find that the kit is 'lost', as it is never properly accounted for in the first place.

So, the fact I handed in green cape leather gloves, and not the white ones issued sixteen years previously attracts letters from the Captains Sec, but no body armour for a front line soldier is passed off as no big thing.

Of course, Tony Bliar can't sack Hoon over this, as he needs to be able to do that to save his own sorry @rse when Hutton reports.

I am soooooooooooooooooooooo glad I'm out. With senior officers of the calibre of Wratten, Day and there ilk running things, You guys have no top cover at all. Quite the reverse. As the Chinook fiasco shows, you are now their top cover.

[NURSE]

If I was cataloging the various reports on the logistic part of op tellic in a Library having been in the logistic tail of the op. I would put them under fiction the various reports do not match the reality that many of us on the ground experienced. The Loggies of all corps and services worked flat out so the teeth could work but it was all hampered by to much kit arriving to quickly to allow a proper logistic op to be run.

[RubiC Cube]

Of course Gordon Brown should accept some responsibility as well because of his abject failure to provide the cash in sufficient time for all troops to be issued with their personal equipment BEFORE they went into theatre. It's not to say that we didn't see it coming!

[WorkingHard]

So at last someone sees that the problem lies with chain of command as well, and not just Hoon. Blair etc. I have said before it is the politicians that decide what you do BUT it is your own officers that decide how, with what etc. They are the one who decide on what kit. Yes (and I am as much against present government as the next) Brown holds the purse strings but does anyone seriously believe he will get involved in specifying what kit is to be bought or maintained? Stop the profligate spending by the senior ranks on self serving waste and then you can all have the kit you need to do the job. Why can you not question those idiotic decisions? Does not the system of redress still exist? It may not be the politically correct thing to do but when lives are at stake who the hell cares about correctness? Well of course those up for promoton may and to hell with their troops.

Rant over

[Boy_From_Brazil]

Being overseas I have missed most of the UK reporting on this. However, I am disgusted by the smug and self satisfied attitude of Hoon. The ba$tard must go, together with the rest of Tony's Toadies.

Again it is symptomatic of gross underfunding in the UK military supply chain. Lack of basic kit, insufficient heavy lift aircraft to rapidly get the kit out to the front line, combined with inadequate management and distribution once the equipment arrives in theatre. The dry-run for GW2 (SSII) clearly highlighted a number of problem areas, but these were never acted upon.

Samantha Roberts deserves all our support, what an amazing lady.

BFB

[Flytest]

BFB,

Agree with you, but can't help but think that there are a number of faceless individuals in the senior levels of the chain of command who also failed woefully in their responsibility to the men at the sharp end, who will escape this incident, and go on to continue ensuring that the cut costs, get a rank, mentality prospers. Hoon must bear ultimate responsibility, and go, as he surely will in the wake of the Hutton report, but unfortunately there are members of the armed forces who share his responsiblity and have failed one of their own. Hope they can watch Samantha Roberts from the comfort of their armchairs and live with themselves.:mad:

[Scud-U-Like]

I seem to recall a PPRune debate some time ago, regarding the idea of the armed forces having some sort of trade union or federation representation. Many balked at the very notion, trotting out the usual 'political correctness gone mad'-type bluster.

On the subject of equipment inadequacies, Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Bartle (retd) writes, in Letters to the Editor, The Times (21 January 2004):

Sir, The recent lack of equipment in the Gulf will not surprise those connected with serving members of the Armed Forces.

As far back as the Falklands war soldiers had to buy kit because that supplied to them was inadequate for the job. The “yomping” Marines were able to make their epic march because they had purchased their own boots.

The Armed Forces have been ill-served by their political masters, yet they have no means of bringing their grievances to public attention. It has taken the courageous efforts of the widow of one of our soldiers to take the Government to task. This should not have been necessary.

We need an organisation similar to the Police Federation to represent Service personnel and bring grievances to public attention. When will the Government recognise that need?

Yours faithfully,
RICHARD BARTLE,
22 Fairthorne Way,
Shrivenham, Oxfordshire SN6 8EB.
January 16.

[WorkingHard]

And what did Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Bartle (retd) do about it? Oh, sorry, of course he wrote to the Times. How brave of him.

[Scud-U-Like]

Perhaps the braver option would have been to post a snide comment on an anonymous web forum. As for what he did about it while he was serving, who knows? Seeing he's not here to defend himself, the decent thing would be to give him the benefit of the doubt or, you could write to him and ask.

[Kiting for Boys]

Well said Scud

I read the letter this morning and it added yet another fact to the list.
It has been said on the same letters pages that anyone who knew anyone in the forces knew that the kit was not in place – I just wonder how they thought that they would get away with lying about it when the press photographs showed front line troops in green gear and black boots.

[FEBA]

SUL
I find myself agreeing with you, though not about PC which you have completely wrong. I had to swap a jersey heavy wool for a pair of US issued boots in order to complete the tasks, with load, required of me. Boots DMS with the cheese grater inserts were impossible to "yomp" any distance in without a load.
As for working hard, perhaps you would like to make some sugestions as to how Lt Col Bartle should conduct his campaign. I'm sure he would be grateful for your advice :rolleyes:

[WorkingHard]

SUL - I take the point and unreservedly withdraw any aspersions on Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Bartle. You are correct in that I certainly know not what else he may have done. The fact is this thread is absolutely castigating the politicians and not the decision makers up the chain of command. How futile is this? Is everyone so afraid to criticise the higher ranks where it is quite probably justified. Who in MOD decides what equipment to buy? Who decides where to send it? Who decides to whom it will be allocated? Not Blair, Hoon and co. I am not defending the politicians in this but just trying to find some answers like everyone else. At what rank is it justified to say: "No sir, we cannot do this without XYZ. My men would be in too much unwarranted danger and incapable of completing the task with the level of equipment provided" Too simply put I know but I am sure you all see the point. As for suggestions for a campaign then why not go public with FACTS about where equipping problems lie. Several people have gone public in writing books that will earn them (they hope) a great deal in royalties but of course there would be little personal gain in such a story about equipment problems!

[TwoTunnels]

It's a shame that Iraq was/isn't blue and slightly cold as the new RAF blue 'wooly pullies' would be ideal (roll neck again!!!). How many flak jackets could you buy for the price of 50,000 new blue jumpers??

[FEBA]

Working Hard
You have a point regarding politicians, however remember the phrase "the buck stops...." I wouldn't feel sorry for any of them.
PM heading your way
Regards
FEBA

[Scud-U-Like]

Congratulations to Gerry Steinberg MP for cutting through the bull$hit during today's Commons Public Administration Committee questioning of the MOD Permanent Secretary and senior officers.

Mr Steinburg said to the Deputy Chief of Defence Staff, Lieutenant General Anthony Palmer (who was getting rather defensive about equipment inadequacies), "If I was a soldier being led by some of the hierarchy I see at this table, I would be bloody worried, to be quite honest."

(I wonder if the "bloody" will make it into tomorrow's Hansard.)

[Flytest]

The question of the where someone takes a stand is a difficult one.. I remember once as a Crew Chief on the Navy's biggest squadron, having grounded an aircraft due to excessively worn bearings on the main rotor rotating scissors (There were no spares.. surprise!!), I was "TOLD" by a young lieutenant that they were ok and I should delete the entry in the 700c and enable the aircraft to meet its flypro.. he didn't even know what rotating scissors were. It was made clear to me that failure to do so would see me removed from my position. I called his pathetic little bluff and remained in the job, although I suspect that was due to manpower shortages, and no-one qualified to replace me!!

My point is, the forces still suffer from the "did you understand the order" syndrome, I do not tar all people in authority with the same brush, but sadly there are still enough people in the forces, in the position of hiding behind a rank, to do something to make themselves look good, but which have potentially dire consequences. Incidentally this is not a swipe at Steve Roberts superiors either.. although if the cap fits.....

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

2T

We could wear our new "Best Blue" complete with the inbound "Corporate" rucksack! All very nice!!!:rolleyes:

Another tri-wall for the loft on order for kit I'll never use. :mad:

[Boy_From_Brazil]

There is a cracking article in today's The Scotsman online. It covers some interviews with the CO of the Black Watch and his Quartermaster. (I wonder how long it will take for them to be fired?). It proves the kit shortages were pretty widespread throughout the front line troops.

The MOD are "considering"issuing body armour as standard kit. Let's hope they take a bit less time then they have considering the AAR option.

Hope the link works....

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com

BFB

[Boy_From_Brazil]

Does the fact that the BBC have apologised to Tony and his cronies mean that the Hoon ba$tard will not now be falling on his sword?

BFB