NATS Airport Re-grading (for pay)

[Farny Burrow]

It's almost time to announce the results of the Nats airport (and center) lottery/Bingo grading game - so get your numbers ready!

For those that don't know, Nats pay grades at airports looks set to change from Atco 2 and Atco 3, to Atco 0 - Atco 5, where 0 is the lowest band, and 5 is the highest. The grades will change for London, Manc and scottish too of course...

And how have they decided who gets what? Well, it's the patented Nats Formula Bingo game. (Based on an American model...) Pay will be related to how complicated or busy the workload at a unit is. It's all come about from Stansted getting as busy as Gatwick was when they got bumped up a grade.

The thing is, the results aren't quite as expected. The college came out with the highest complexity (!) while Birmingham got a much higher score than Stansted. Southampton got quite a high score as well, though it remains in band 1, with City (tower only), Luton (tower only) and Farnborough (Tower, Approach, and Lars).

However, a closer inspection of how the scores was reached has raised some issues. For Farnborough, the tower movements are at about 150 or so a day - but there is scope to almost double that within the council limits. There is no controlled airspace either (the only nats airport without it). However there are another 75000 Lars movements, and approach movements for at least 4 other airfields. All these radar movements have been ignored in the scoring of the unit, as has the airshow, as they are apparently "non-quantifiable". Full statistics, including numbers of Fis, Ris and Ras is available, as well as numbers for a few thousand airshow movements. As there is no controlled airspace, you can't just ignore the Fis traffic when vectoring inbounds, or the other 100 or so unknowns.

It's the fact that so much work is being ignored that is the problem, rather than how much money everyone else will get. Morale has plummeted. Being a small unit also means working 6 on, 3 off, which means 30 more days at work a year than a 6 on, 4 off unit. Everyone has extra jobs too, that are not paid for, so that the unit runs smoothly, as there is just a manager ATS, and one admin officer, plus 3 watches and the ATSAs (which are in short supply)

It turns out that London city got a much higher score than Farnborough because of this, as did Southampton and Luton. Is it right that a tower only unit gets a much higher score than a tower and multiple radar unit with a similar number of tower movements, and thousands more radar movements?

The next band will prob be the scottish airports with Cardiff, and then the next band is birmingham and stansted, followed by Gatwick and Manc, and then the ATCO 5 units are Heathrow, Nerc, TC, Scottish, Manc area and the college.

We're told that no-one will lose money, but that it will be a lot easier to earn more money by moving to a higher graded unit. They will make it easier to move from unit to unit. Will anyone want to work at the bottom?

Of course, there will be bigger gaps between the bands, especially at the top. Expect pay rises to show this... And the scores will be re-evaluated every 3 years. So if Easyjet and Ryanair go bust, expect stansted to drop from atco 3 to atco 1.

So what do you all think of this? Is it fair? While this (rather long) post is a slight rant for having most of my work ignored, I'm not completely against the whole idea. Well, not so sure about the college complexity issues...!

There's lots more info too, but this will do for now. I suspect it will come out in the pay offer. Anyway, post what you think, or what the feelings at your unit are about it...

Farny Burrow.:sad:

[5milesbaby]

This is certainly a topic to be discussed in our private forum and not in public view.

...I'll never agree with TT though....

[Barny F Rough]

A lot of Nats people can't get on the Nats Forum - not that there's anything there! And lots more read this while not being a member. The Nats Pay/WP thread has been happy here, so I'm quite happy to post my views on this forum too.

Personally, I think there's some shafting going on, so that Heathrow can be paid even more money, to try and get people to go there. Part of the banding is to make it easier to move up a unit, but I bet it's still impossible to get out of Heathrow...

Whats' TT (excuse my ignorance)?? And just how complex is a 9-5 job at the college?

Barny

[bagpuss lives]

I was under the informed impression that MACC Area is most certainly not in the same "band" as LACC, CATC and TC but in band 4?

[5milesbaby]

Thats what I heard niteflight, only LTCC/LACC/EGLL and the college in top band.

I moved this into the NATS forum for those that dont want public votes, I'll however gladly publicise my own response:

My thoughts on this are that a structured pay deal like this has been on the cards for years, and is justified as long as the right units get the right scale but already, as Farny hints, there is one ruffled collar. Pay cannot be uniform in so many different environments, but those environments that deserve more should benefit. I hope, lest expect that the negotiating team have done their work and attempted to grade all units accordingly, I feel there will be some that think they are being undervalued though. I agree that the college do not deserve top rank either, but they are mostly ATCO 1's at the moment. Off the issue but raised at my unit was the need for 5 years experience to train in the non radar college, but only 2 years to become a mentor on fully live traffic, thats one I think I'll never understand.

But then its easy to look at this simply being at LACC.....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barny, if you are NATS then getting on the Private Forum is easy. Just e-mail the link provided.

If you dont know TT (Traffic Traffic) yet, then this is almost certainly the thread you'll meet him in :ouch: :ouch:

[Scott Voigt]

If you don't get credit for working VFR advisories, then it isn't patterened after they way that we do things. You should look at the way we do our banding to see all the different things that we give credit for.

regards

Scott

[055166k]

If you don't get paid for the service provided one should be asking why on earth you provide it. The idea of providing a wide-ranging and non-revenue service is totally out of date in the modern NATS. The answer is TOLL airspace in the same way the TOLL motorways/bridges work. In fact this super idea could work for the Mil too!

[intentionally blank]

The whole thing is hugely unfair and divisive.

A two year deal goes against branch policy (all those heated debates at conference are such a waste of time.)

The Scottish airports are (effectively) lumped in with the smallest of the regionals in band 1 (we get the same pay rise).

Centres worth more? MAybe but then airport staff work full shifts and are far more flexible.

Prospect has just managed to look worse than mangement by DELIBERATELY sidelining and (effectively) downgrading a large chunk of an already disenchanted membership.

No dopubt some greedy ATCO 2 will take offence at this and tell me that it is all I deserve, you are wrong. Airport staff (with the exception of BB and SS) have yet again been badly let down by a TU which ironically only cares for the majority.

[SonicTPA]

More information has been released, and there is more unfairness than was first thought.

Band 5 LACC, LTCC, LL, Hurn, HQ. Total pay rise 14.7% (over 2yrs)
4: KK,CC, MACC, ScOACC. 10.7% over 2 yrs
3: SS, BB. 12.7% over 2 yrs
2: PF, PH, PD, AA, FF. 8.7 %
1: GW, HI, LC, LF and ranges. 8.7%

However, the extra 2% or half spine point over 1 year for bands 1 and 2 is not pensionable - how does that work in your pay packet. Will it remain non pensionable in the 2nd year??

When it comes to the vote, the higher banded units also have more staff. They are getting a hefty rise, and will prob vote yes. Farnborough has 18 votes, and the others in Band 1 don't have many more staff either. If we vote no, it won't make a difference.

So stamped on again by the big boys.

Sonic

[Geffen]

Don't forget that 8.7% is still way above inflation on salaries that are way above national average, heck after two years maybe we will all get the same percentage rise?

[Roger Dodge]

Intentionally Blank

I am sure that this 'unfair' world that we live in is very demoralising, but I cannot just sit here and read your blinkered remarks without comment.

You bleat on about how you always work a full shift, if that is the case, then my hat goes off to you, but I cannot believe that you work every shift from start to finish, every day you are in.

I presume (dangerous I know) that you work at an airport north of the border. I'm sure that you must have a nice house and live a fairly comfortable life. You state in one thread that you do not have a desire to work in London. Why is this??? Because it is overcrowded?? Is a nause to get to work?? It costs a stupid amount of money to buy a house??? That alone is worth the extra 6%. Oh sorry, I forgot the £1500 London weighting we get every year to make up for the huge gulf in house prices!!!!

Yes I am an ATCO 2, yes I work at LTCC, Yes I work hard, Yes I may leave 1/2 hour before the end of the shift sometimes, but when all is said and done, the traffic levl and complexity that I deal with on a day to day basis is higher than what you deal with and that justifies a higher salary. If that makes me 'greedy' as you so eloquently put it then so be it. If you feel that strongly, get down here and see how 'cushy' our lives really are!!!!!!!!

[Jerricho]

R D, what you bitchin' about this time?

You're still on the T&D scale aren't you? ;) You're just jumping on the band wagon.

[flower]

Management must be rubbing their hands with glee if reading these threads, divide and rule springs instantly to mind.

The regrading is IMHO a sham, they have not I have been advised taken into account movements in Glass G as they are unquantifiable, sorry that is ludicrous. To state that a service you provide will not be taken into account because its to hard to figure out is insulting in the extreme.
Those of us who provide services outside CAS understand the difficulties involved, vectoring scheduled traffic outside CAS providing RAS and RIS etc but apparently unless movements are inside CAS they simply don't count
I have no objections to a regrading of unit pay, providing that regrading is fair. From what i have seen so far it doesn't on the surface in any way appear fair.
I am trying to find out when the figures they based the grading on were taken, if they were taken when i believe they were then my unit has lost out.
What is often not realised at the larger units is up until now we at the regions have had to be very flexible in our working habits just to ensure things work, IE keep the airports open. With the way we have been portrayed in this regrading I expect a lot of goodwill will go.
If someone is genuinely working a lot harder then yes they should be paid more, but how you can quantify who works hardest I haven't a clue. The system they have chosen as their model has ignored to many facets of ATC to be in anyway fair.
The actual basic pay rise I have no issue with, AAVAs i have no real issue with, the regrading I am extremely unhappy about.

[robbie d]

Well done to the GW radar controllers at LTCC.

What a fantastic result. You are going to be on point 5 while the colleagues that you left behind, all of 2 1/2 years ago, are going to be on point 1.

NATS - A FAIR EMPLOYER.

So, how many people at GW tower would like to travel an extra 35 miles to go to work at LTCC now. Now don`t all go leaving at once.

[WMD]

Robbie D, That's not the half of it! - they (the GW radar boys) work perhaps 3 aircraft an hour (if busy) and sit reading their books/mags or using their laptops for the rest of the time whilst the majority of us area folks are working our b@$$@cks off. -

Unfortunately, that's the way it is - and , no , it's not fair.

WMD

PS They're nearly all at the top of the scale too......:*

[Slaphead]

robbie d

See if you can spot the difference;

There are ATCOs valid on Gatwick radar at TC who used to work for NATS at Gatwick and who now earn more money than their former colleagues at Gatwick Tower.

There are ATCOs valid on Stansted/Essex radar at TC who used to work for NATS at Stansted and who now earn more money than their former colleagues at Stansted Tower.

There are ATCOs valid on Luton radar at TC who used to work for Luton Airport until NATS won the contract and moved the radar function to TC and who now earn more money than their former colleagues at Luton Tower.

It might not be fair but it isn't the fault of the individuals. That said, within reason all staff at a unit should achieve the unit minimum competency but that isn't unique to TC.

[Third Party]

I understood that all traffic outside CAS - LARS, RAS, RIS, transits was counted in the scoring system and that the work was done jointly by Prospect and NATS. Is it not the case then that if a Unit is Tower only, it will make no real difference in total traffic terms against a Tower & Approach Unit? Has Birmingham gone up because of proxity to Coventry?

On grading it seems B5 will be LACC, LTCC, LHR and CATC. The B1 Units (current ATCOs) though are going to get same as B2 which is 2%, those coming in later will get the current ATCO 3 pay rate plus the 2-year pay deal.

[Roger Dodge]

Jerricho

Ah if only it were true!! I am a "grown up" now.

Don't even start on that little topic. Whoever decided in the last WPP changes that when you validate, if it is before your 2 years is up having left the college, then you stay on the T+D scale until it is!!

Intentionally Blank, is that a fair way to pay people?? I don't think so, but it paved the way for a nice pay rise a few years ago.

[Third Party]

I really should check what I write, that would be "proximity" to Coventry!!!!

When is smoke on pay, WPA, AAVA etc. expected from ATCO BEC?

[PA7]

An ATCO is an ATCO is an ATCO is how Prospect tried to put this across...well that sorts out Bands 3 to 5 what about about bands 1 and 2.
The word band is an interesting term which in reality is a smoke screen to hide the fact in real terms some units have been demoted to ATCO 4's and ATCO 5's, great for self esteem that one.
Interesting also that the Scottish airfields are all the same band, that was probably to avoid civil war North of the Border, can you imagine the bloodshed if Glasgow (The true Capital of Scotland) was put above Edinburgh.
CATC as usual manage to top the scales I suppose that is to guarantee the yes votes and to think that some of the Approach Radar Instructors have never been valid at a NATS unit:uhoh:
A lot has been written about the changes in working practices at LACC and the 0530 starts, no one however blinks an eye when the working practices change at the Airports and have been on going for years. I would say to the LACC ATCO's if you don't like the changes to WP then vote NO, remember there is a lot more to this pay deal than just money.
Band 1/ATCO 5 units are unlikely to attract any students from CATC and the instructers will be over qualified!!! so it will be the failures and the odd nutter that will be sent to these units, which may in time gradually degrade the effectiveness of that unit.
Well I am going to vote NO, on principle I hope that enough of you out there do the same regardless of where you work and help stop this madness :(

[intentionally blank]

RD,

Yes the T & D was wrong. I got a pay rise but I voted against it. This is worng too. Gonna vote no like I did?

[PH-UKU]

Airports shafted again.

Remember the ATCO2 to 3 downgrading ?
Should people be paid for the job they do, or where they stay ?

I would say Glasgow and Edinburgh are as busy/complex as Birmingham and damn sight harder work than a deskilled tower only unit.

If it costs so much to stay 'daan sarf' (keep it lads, nae hills, nae snow, nae sheep ;) ), then wouldn't it make financial sense to transfer more and more sectors to New Scottish Centre (or Glasgow Approach ;) or India) where the jobs are cheaper - and more gratefully received ?

Oh, I forgot they already started doing that with the North Sea.

Surely if it costs so bloody much to live down south, market forces dictate that instead of subsidising it, you should move the jobs to the cheaper areas ? Or do too many NATS management have vested interests in nice little packages for themselves on the South Coast ?

[Lock n' Load]

PA7 needs a reality check.
2002 movements. Glasgow, 105,000. Edinburgh, 118,000. Hmm, bit busier in the east. Capital status? Perth used to have it, Stirling used to have it, Edinburgh still has it, Glasgow never had it though by you'd sometimes think it was the capital of Ireland (North and South!).
Edinburgh's traffic level is much closer to Birmingham than Glasgow, indeed at current growth rates (which leave Glasgow behind somewhat) Edinburgh will probably overtake Birmingham long before the end of the 2 year period for which this pay whitewash will last. Will Edinburgh be regraded to Band 3 when that happens? I wouldn't bet on it.
As for the idea of basing pay on cost of living, Edinburgh ATCOs will be all for it (and that's one area where Glasgow is catching up though from a low base). To buy a property in Edinburgh in a decent area, unless it's new from a developer, involves a deposit of typically 25-40% more than the MORTGAGE VALUATION. So, looking at new-build properties, £180k will get a tiny 1-bed flat, £260k for a 2-bed flat and £300k for a 3-bed flat, all in decent but not stunning areas. A 5-bed house for family ATCOs comes in at £645k.
Oh yes, all you Heathrow/Gatwick/LATCC/Swanwick people, it costs peanuts to live north of Watford....

[eastern wiseguy]

Glasgow never had it though by you'd sometimes think it was the capital of Ireland (North and South

Haven't the first notion what you are talking about...but we work ALL our outbounds .....AND have another airfield in the tma for which we do inbounds and outbounds ...and we are graded LESS than a tower only station!!!!..The best pay rise I get is when I tear up my union membership!!!This is a joke...pissed off or what??

[055166k]

As the guy in the film said..."Follow the Money". Lots of vacancies down here so get on your bikes and get off your soapboxes! I'm sure we'd all like to be Mr/Mrs/Ms Easylife but life ain't like that.

[Grasscutter]

I would like to know how the restructuring pay points were compiled.

The results of the investigation at the airfields, which I am told included all aspects of our tasks, gave the following points:-

Heathrow 497, Gatwick 431, Manchester 426, Stansted 297, Birmingham 290.


With a point difference of about 60 to 70 points between EGLL and the next two airfields, EGKK & EGCC, Heathrow get an extra pay point increment.

With a difference of aprox 130 points between Gatwick, Manchester and the two airfields in the group below, Stansted & Birmingham, EGBB & EGSS gain half a pay point on EGKK & EGCC.

How come?

[PA7]

Lock n Load

I take it then you are happy to take the down grading at your unit then and vote for the pay rise, thats' the reality mate. Still you could always move down south to the South East I hear the housing is cheaper down there:ooh:
The points system is like Gov't statistics they can be manipulated to make some units look great, others look average and the rest :mad: I believe that the movements were wieghted in some cases in order to favour certain units and screw others. I am still voting NO.:sad:

[flower]

The more i think about the airport grading the more i see a total injustice being done.
Heathrow two runways, yes we know you are busy but you are top of the groupings. Gatwick , single runway ops, very busy ground movement also in the expensive south east is in a lower group than you , why ?
If we want to talk about individual units and what they do, my unit took a large chunk of airspace off LACC in July of last year. We have approximately 120 miles of airways up to FL165. We are the Approach unit to Cardiff and RAF St Athan, we also provide intermediate approach services to Bristol Lulsgate and Filton, Exeter and Swansea. We operate a busy LARS service and because of us having a UHF frequency we work a large number of Military aircraft ( anyone used to working military traffic are aware that they take up a considerable amount of time in relation to civilian aircraft)
We do not have by any means the density of traffic of units such as Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, we though last year were many weeks just a few aircraft behind Birmingham in weekly movements during the summer months.
We lose out because we are seasonal, and our own runway movements are lower, the very nature of my unit is a radar unit with a Small amount of tower.
We, like other units have taken airspace off LACC to help them sort out their problems, they get a grading up the top of the scale we, who have reduced delays in the West End significantly through the delegated function are now ATCO4s effectively.
Staff shortages do not exist purely at the units in Group 5 , we all have them , unless a miracle happens before the summer, when increased movements at both Bristol and Exeter will increase our workload further, we will be unable to bring in our new WP which ensures we do not have single manning in the approach room after 1830 at night. Our busiest period is after then and we as radar controllers are alone even without ATSA support.
High house prices are not just the domain of the South East either we are all catching up rapidly with you whilst prices fall in the South East.
I pay exactly the same union dues as my colleagues elsewhere, I however am not being properly represented and my company has made it clear that those of us who work at the regional airports , because we do not have the same numbers to vote against such proposals, are of an insignificance to them.

Thank you NATS and PROSPECT for making me feel a valued member of both the company and MY union.

[PA7]

This Foundation Payment of 1/2 spine point over 1 year or cica 2% for Band 1 & 2 units. I take it that this payment is for 1 year only then which means that our pay rise for 2005 will equate to 1.2%.:mad:
I hope I am wrong on this one but I doubt it

Thanks again Prospect:yuk:

[TrafficTraffic]

They just log onto PPRUNE and see all the fighting and bickering and whinging and complaining - they just let you fight each other and divide and conquer.


It really is a pity.



Oh yeah somebody explain to me why this isnt in the NATS forum?

couldnt let you down 5milesbaby....

[Farny Burrow]

As I am now a bottom of the band atco, I obviously don't do much work, and so have had time to work out some of the pay rises for all the bands, increments etc over the next 2 years.

I thought I'd post some spot figures:

.................................Dec 03.......Jan 04.........Jan 05....... Apr 05
Band 1 + 2 top..........46281.........48780.........50341.......50341
Band 3 top................46281.........48780..........51348....... 52375
Band 4 top................56418.........59465..........62557....... 62557
Band 5 Top...............61733.........65067..........71146........ 71146

Now that's a serious 10,000 pounds pay rise over a 12 month period in Band 5

How many people who work in those bands would vote no to that payrise, so supporting the Band 1 and 2 units that are being penalised? Prob not many...so if even all the band 1 and 2 units vote no, it would prob be still accepted because of all the greedy atcos higher up the nats chain.

It now means that a luton tower controller earns 22,000 pounds less than his colleague doing radar, who worked with him at Luton not so long ago.

No doubt a lot of you will be saying you're worth it. Well, do you really honestly think you're that much better than us? If you do, then maybe that's why a lot of us don't want to transfer to your unit.

Farny

[Mahaba]

Although I'm not a fan of inter-unit bickering or even the current deal-Could someone please correct me if I'm reading the NATS figures wrong when it comes to movements per controller/year.
NERC En-route 4800 give or take a few.
MACC 4900+
Those aren't my figures, they came from NATS summary of movements per units/annum. I don't for one minute deny that TC are busier than MACC but when it's considered that MACC is essentially also a Terminal Control unit surely the figures/controller give an indication as to how busy it can be here. And although we all deserve better than what they are going to give us, it seems to me that a unit with the 3rd busiest sector in Europe (Stafa/Trent) at peak times should not be banded below the likes of Hurn whose artificially high banding just to attract staff makes a mockery of those ATCO's who actually talk to real aeroplanes everyday.
Pardon me my rant and I wish you all just what you deserve-which I'm afraid is far more than you're likely to get.

[bagpuss lives]

Yep - no one can argue with statistics Mahaba.

At least no one except those bods who've decided to completely ignore them and put MACC in a lower band.

[Mahaba]

PS And they're closing us down.:( :( :( :{

[bagpuss lives]

Allegedly Mahaba...............allegedly ;)

[Arkady]

Mahaba, you are preaching to the converted.

A mere two years ago we were shifting more traffic in more airspace with less controllers. Then we were all moved to the sunny south coast.

Isn't progress great!!

[Mahaba]

I do hope your right 01 but if they don't let us in on any little secrets they may have, they may find it's too late to rescue our beloved unit. Toronto already has more of us committed to it than they ever thought they would lose and some of us already have our Winnipeg invitations in our hands-that's just for starters. If they are playing a game...it's a dangerous one. Hope they realise that. :( :( :(

[bagpuss lives]

If the current rest-room rumour factory is to be believed they do indeed realise that. They simply don't care - apparently.

I hear the next major "wave" of Canadian migrants is leaving over the next few months - some really good, experienced colleagues leaving and more to follow surely.

Worrying times indeed.

[Rage]

''No doubt a lot of you will be saying you're worth it. Well, do you really honestly think you're that much better than us? If you do, then maybe that's why a lot of us don't want to transfer to your unit''.


No Farny, the reason you don't want to transfer is that an extra £22k is not enough for you to lose your health over..........

[Mahaba]

We are filling their positions so quickly that they (NAVCANADA) are having to offer us other ACC's because they can't cope with our numbers. Other assessments are promised. They will take as many as they can. It is only their training and positions that are limiting our numbers. If they will take us in numbers-we will leave in our masses. If not Canada, Dubai or elsewhere. The sadness of the whole thing is that a very good unit with some of the best people I have ever had the privilege to work with is being torn apart...for a business plan. :( :(

[PH-UKU]

Anyone know how many have left NATS in the last year for NAVCanada etc..... and what the kind of unit breakdown is ?

Anyone off to Edmonton, Calgary or Vancouver ?

[Jerricho]

Hands up how many non NATS controllers are laughing their assess off at all this!

[TrafficTraffic]

Noone on the floor is laughing mate, as I said before it really is just a pity.

[Jerricho]

TT, I think you missed the point a little.

NATS, in their effort to be a "world ATS leader" has really pissed so many staff off. And I agree some units have a right to be so (what's that term my therapist uses......undervalued?).

So just keep the bitching and moaning going guys. Stuff the NATS forum..........it's going to make a lot of other ATS staff out there think "Jeeze, I thought we were getting shafted!". Let's all feel good in ourselves we can help our fellow controllers in this small way.

(I know I'm repeating myself)

How about emailing [email protected] , get access to the NATS forum (Provide your real name, pprune user name, employee number and unit) and continue it there if you must.

[TrafficTraffic]

I think YOU missed my point - it is a pity that this happening to you guys is what I was trying to get across. It is a pity that to a certain extent you are turning on each other and not banding together to fight as a team. I dont blame you for it, on the contrary it is a very natural reaction and has been used by management in other places before.

You can never have a level playing field and everybody will always have some special claim as to why my job is the busiest, why I work the hardest, why I deserve more money.......etc.......

As much I enjoy winding you guys up - most* of the time I do it for fun - this doesnt seem like fun to me :(

I agree leave the threads here - maybe somebody can help - but dont show too much of your hand....if you get what I mean.



*Still dont understand why you guys cant figure out parallel headings....

[BOBBLEHAT]

You are all getting a bloody good pay rise.

ALL units thinks they are busy. ALL units think they are short staffed. ALL units think they work hard. So we are all in the same boat on that one. So move to the units that are being rewarded more than others, that way you can't possibly complain as you will remain busy, short staffed and working your bits off.


Yes, this new system has a few discrepancies but on the whole it is fair. Speak to your rep and learn how to table a motion to conference to move your band, or re-count the scores, whatever makes YOU happy , but please don't just sit and complain. Some people have spent years (literally) of their own private time on this and months of meetings with management to get what overall is an inflation busting pay rise for all.

If you don't like it - vote no. If you do - vote yes. Stop bickering and making us all look like spoilt children.

[caniplaywithmadness]

Earth Calling BobbleHat,

Have you actually read anything that has been posted here??

There are a whole load of us that have tried to get out of the regional airports to move to the centres/LL, KK, but because we are so short staffed and working our @rses off, we can't get out, there are people at my unit who have had their names down to get out for over 5 years. We WANT to go to these places, but we CANNOT.

We have tabled motions to conference for God knows how many years now insisting that the union REFUSE to enter into a 2 year pay deal.

Looks like as usual Prospect doesn't take any notice of it's memership wishes.

I for one will be looking for another union when this is all over, no matter what the result of the ballot (although I suspect it will be an overwhelming YES)

[SonicTPA]

Bobblehat said:

"So move to the units that are being rewarded more than others, that way you can't possibly complain as you will remain busy, short staffed and working your bits off."

What planet are you living on? As has already been said on this thread and the WPP thread, people have been trying to move out of units for ages, and are finding that they are not being allowed out of their unit, or can't get to where they want to go.

Now what do you think will happen if all the other controllers in the bottom 2 bands ask to move. It's not going to happen is it?

The issue isn't just the pay - it's the regrading. Changes in the WPP have been happening at airports for ages, and no-one at the centers has battered an eyelid. Now they've started to complain that they may have to start at 5.30 - at least they work a WHOLE MONTH less than us 3 watch units, before leave is taken into consideration.

I'd be happy to start at 5.30 - nice quiet trip into work, and an extra month off a year!

Sonic

[PA7]

Bobblehat said:


"Yes, this new system has a few discrepancies but on the whole it is fair. Speak to your rep and learn how to table a motion to conference to move your band, or re-count the scores, whatever makes YOU happy , but please don't just sit and complain. Some people have spent years (literally) of their own private time on this and months of meetings with management to get what overall is an inflation busting pay rise for all"

A few discrepancies is the bulk of the Airports being down-graded, many of these with traffic that is not included so as to keep the scores down Cardiff, Aberdeen and Farnborough to name a few. Is that fair

Okay so we table a motion to Conference which as it happens is next November and it goes to a card vote; well we all know the result of that one don't we:{

Re-count the scores: So lets ignore that traffic again back to square one


Please don't sit and complain; okay then lets just sit here and wait to see how they can stitch us up next time. We have to let Prospect know how we feel.


Oh yes and the time spent, well most of it is on the company, logged in the green card!

PA7

[Greebson]

I just hope all you band 5 ATCOs like your new slimmed down union when this is over. I think you'll find the forgotten units that (hopefully) leave on mass will actually weaken your cards for the future.
The Greebs

[PH-UKU]

I hope you're not right Greeby-Baby :( But it seems that the Airports have just been stitched over and over again, with the en masse big unit votes outnumbering you every time. Now get back to your studying or I'll not drop off the DVDs.

[Jerricho]

TT - Sorry, I did misunderstand where you were coming from. Humble apology. Speaking to a few controller buddies of mine back home and the whole thing was mentioned with a big smirk. And they found it highly amusing, as you rightly point out, the in house bickering and turning on each other.

Just think, if a prosepctive applicant saw all this, what the hell would they think?

[flower]

What would prospective candidates think ?

Well if they have any sense they would avoid doing approach control and aim straight for LTCC and LACC.

No candidate in their right mind would now opt for Approach as a career not when there is such a marked differential in pay.

So those of you bemoaning your staff shortages at EGLL better watch out, in the short term you may get a substantial pay rise , but sorting out your long term staff shortages ........

We haven't got a a hope in hells chance now of getting the right calibre into Airports have we, we will end up getting the also rans out of the college who couldn't make it on the area side not the high standard of trainees we actually require.

Talk about a long term shot in the foot guys

[Jerricho]

Flower, my thoughts exactly. Deep down, it is human nature.......where will I get more money?

Perhaps just a little harsh with the "also rans" bit. If I remember correctly, isn't the college streaming now straight into Area or Approach from day 1?

[Gonzo]

Not sure how valid that is to be honest. I remember being told five years ago that area was the way forward if you wanted money, and that seems to have been the case ever since. AFAIK Approach courses are always over-subscribed.

[LostThePicture]

I'm sorry flower, but I have to disagree. On nearly all counts. I doubt very much that college candidates are remotely as mercenarily money-driven as you seem to be suggesting.

It is made clear at the college that a "marked differential in pay" already exists between Approach/Airports and Area. However, many ab-initio trainees WANT to do Approach but are unable because courses are so small. I would have done Approach myself had the opportunity arisen, but it did not and I was packed off to LACC as an Area student. Sure, the money is nice now I'm there, but I'm not money-motivated to such a degree.

Do you remember the term "mobile grade"? The contract that you sign before they even let you set foot in the college. It means, "You will go where NATS tells you to go". Most students don't get a chance to "aim" for anywhere. They get what they are given. If that means a future earning a "pittance" at a Band 1 unit, then so be it. They can always hand in their notice.

I say "pittance" because that's just what it ISN'T. We are ALL paid well for what we do. We have ALL been offered an above-inflation pay rise. It seems that some of the more experienced ATCOs need to remove their heads from dark orifices and look around. Because they're becoming far too greedy.

Oh, and one other thing:
We haven't got a a hope in hells chance now of getting the right calibre into Airports have we, we will end up getting the also rans out of the college who couldn't make it on the area side not the high standard of trainees we actually require.
Where have you been? This has been happening for years already. If the trainees weren't of a high enough standard, they wouldn't make it out of the college full stop. The fact that some area failures are given the opportunity to do Approach is merely NATS trying to reduce the attrition rate and give promising trainees another shot.

LTP

[flower]

The differential in pay up till now has not been as extreme as it will be following the introduction of the this new banding.
I do not know how they currently decides who is going area or approach , however If at the college from day one you know you will be earning substantially less than your area trainee colleagues that will cause great resentment.

I am a not a greedy ATCO with my head up some orifice thank you very much, if you read through all my postings you will see i will not be swayed by an additional 20K to move as i happen to enjoy the work i do.

To say that all ATCOs are greedy because those of us in the lower bands feel aggrieved by the whopping great differential in pay this will cause is a farce.

I am not complaining about the annual pay rise I am happy with that , but I will say again this banding is unfair has not been thought out in the long term and will do more damage to this company and the union than those of you getting the whopping great big pay rise can ever contemplate.

I have heard various people getting the large increase saying stop moaning, that is very easy to say from your position. MACC is losing staff hand over foot, i suspect others will soon start walking to.

Long term this is very damaging.

[PA7]

LostThePicture

Quote:
I say "pittance" because that's just what it ISN'T. We are ALL paid well for what we do. We have ALL been offered an above-inflation pay rise. It seems that some of the more experienced ATCOs need to remove their heads from dark orifices and look around. Because they're becoming far too greedy.

I take it you are not being down graded because I believe that if you were then you might have something to complain about...there is more to this than money. The only thing to come out of all this is deep division.

Flower the voice of reason:ok:

PA7

[Caledonian]

From an outsider looking in point of view :

Can't believe PF and PH are NOT in the same band as BB and SS, more so PH as there ATM's are not a million miles far from BB and will no doubt overtake them in the next couple of years and when you see what they have to work with at PH, you wouldn't grudge them a bit extra.

Also NATS staff have complained about Prospect for a long time now, just wondering how difficult is it to get rid of them and get another organisation to represent you??

Good Luck to the people who are against it because l think you have a right to feel unhappy so l hope you get the fairness you deserve.

[j17]

Would it not be in everyones interest to have two votes on whats been offered.One for the pay offer and one for the restructuring.Prospect ,if it could be bothered to listen,could then see where everyones grievences are coming from

[PA7]

Trouble is j17 Prospect don't give a :mad: or to be more precise the BEC don't give a :mad: so don't take it out on your Rep.

PA7

[Gonzo]

I take it you are not being down graded...

I'm sorry, maybe I missed something.....who is getting a pay cut? :confused:

[j17]

PA7

Iam not slagging off my rep. he is anti the deal as most of the airfields are

[radar707]

If the trainees weren't of a high enough standard, they wouldn't make it out of the college full stop. The fact that some area failures are given the opportunity to do Approach is merely NATS trying to reduce the attrition rate and give promising trainees another shot.

Exactly what is a high enough standard to "graduate from the college."

How many Students have succesfully completed the college course, only to go on and fail at the units they have been posted to?

I can think of at least 2 that have been posted to PF in the last 2 yrs (given that we've only had about 4 from CATC), and countless others that have failed to validate at ALL units they were given a chance at.

The money is not the issue here, it's the unfairness of the criteria used to "band " different units.

NATS is basically shafting the regional airports.

Still noone has commented on Oceanic Controllers, because they are in the same building as ScACC Radar, why should they have the same "banding" as ScACC, they move less traffic than PF, PH, BB, and it's hardly complicated is it????



:mad: :mad: :mad:

[PA7]

Gonzo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I take it you are not being down graded...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
I'm sorry, maybe I missed something.....who is getting a pay cut


I did not mention anything about a pay cut, but we are being down graded, whether you want to believe it or not that is a fact. The trouble is because there is a few quid at the end of it, the assumption is that it will be okay, it took years to get over the last one. I arrived at my unit a new ATCO 3 fresh from CATC one of the only ATCO 3's on the unit as it happens and I was treated worse than a bit of dog sh*t on a shoe. All because they were being downgraded to my grade, all be it at the top of the scale. I just don't want to see it again!!!!! But hey It's you that's going to vote to Yes...me I'm voting NO. I am happy being an ATCO 3 call that greedy, well then I,m greedy, but you probably need the money. Oh and before you say it, yes I could apply for EGSS but I don't want to give up my Radar validation...enough said.

PA7
One 1/4 Cherokee 3/4's animal:E

[AyrTC]

Although I do not work there myself I think you will find that Oceanic "move " more traffic than PF,PH and BB .

Big Sky Big Aircraft!!!!

:\

AyrTC

Of course they speak to :mad: er all

[10W]

Indeed AyrTC :ok:

Oceanic moved 339,524 in 2003 from NATS figures.

Edinburgh according to the CAA was 106,191, Glasgow was 88,082 and Birmingham was 116,042.

So in reality, Ocean handles almost 30,000 more per annum than all three put together ... and without radar ;)

Errr, what WAS your point again radar707 ?? :\

[Greebson]

I think I may have started the Oceanic argument, for which I apologise. I believe it was in answer to HALOs statement that those that earn the company more revenue should get more , I merely asked why the Oceanic boys are not in a band of there own (namely band SIX ). It was a hint at sarcasm, but, seems to have been taken EXACTLY the opposite way to that intended.
The Greebs

[VectorLine]

So, does everyone see this re-grading thing as part of the pay rise?

I don't. The pay rise is a 2 year deal starting with 3.4% from Jan2004 and then RPI + 0.6% from Jan 2005.

That's it! - Oh, except for your extra £1 luncheon vouchers if you get them.

The new 5 band structure, in my opinion, should not be advertised as a 'pay rise'. It is a restructuring of the salary grading. As a sweetener/bribe/masking agent/compensation - we are being offered a one or two spine point move.

This isn't a pay rise - an pay rise would result in each spine point being worth more money - there is still a maximum spine point that ATCOs at each unit can reach - the value of which is not changing - so what happens to staff who are already at the top spine point for the unit they are at???

There are so many other issues being lumped in with pay negotiations which according to the Management/Prospect Joint statement (5) - -
"..will be published separately."

I could go on and on about this but, of course it is just my opinion. Im not complaining about the extra money - any increase is good. But I don't think that the 2 issues of annual pay rise and pay scale restructuring should be tackled at the same time - it gives a very false and exaggerated view of the pay rise

[Arkady]

VL

Also from the Joint Statement:

"A new ATCO 5 Band pay structure producing a 4.5% increase on the ATCO wage bill. The new structure is based on jointly agreed criteria for Unit grading and complexity that will increase all ATCO main scale salaries by at least ½ a spine point with foundation payment from 1st January 2004"

It is an increase in the spine points, not accelerated progression up the scale. You are still just as far away from the top of the scale as you were but it will be at least 1/2 a spine point more when you get there.

That aside I agree that the issue of banding salaries should be treated seperately from the main pay case.

I imagine the Union prefered to negotiate the banding in with the salaries because of managments urgent need for an AVAA agreement. Otherwise the negotiations could have gone on for years.

[Arkady]

VectorLine

I stand corrected.

The banding WILL be achieved by accelerated progression up the spine points. Those at the top of the scale will not miss out as they will move onto the (currently unused) spines above the existing ATCO 2 scale. Don't know how it will work for ATCO 1s. So you are moving up the spine points but you are no closer to the top of the scale than you were.

The people who may miss out are the T&Ds who are not yet on the ATCO 2 pay scale. I don't know what arrangements have been made for them.

[Slippers]

On the subject of those at lower band units who wish to move, would it not be sensible for NATS to post all new trainees to lower band units in order to obtain they're initial validation. Once valid, they would then allow the more experience staff at these units to move on if they so wished. These experienced staff would also have a higher chance of validating at the "busier units" than an ab initio. There would be a generally happier workforce over all as everybody would have a chance to move if they wanted to and it would lead to a higher percentage of trainees validating at their initial posting and thereby securing their long term job prospects.

[Farny Burrow]

Arkady,
the banding will NOT be achieved by accelerated progression up the spine points - it is simply that the spine points in your band will be increased by the associated amount. So someone at the top of the scale gets the increase, but doesn't go up a point, and someone at the bottom gets the increase, but stays on the bottom point.

As for students and trainee pay, I believe that the student pay IS being reduced, and the T+D controller can expect 55% of the lowest point in their airports band until they're valid, when they will then get 70 or 75% of the lowest band.

Slippers,
And as for only sending trainees to the lower band airports - the experienced staff wouldn't be able to get posted out because they would have to stay and train all the new controllers. After that, it would be more likely that the newly validated controller would find it easier to move on, as they would be less valuable to the unit, not being an OJTI, LCE, or watch manager etc.

Farny

[Captain Spunkfarter]

Slippers

Believe it or not, the statistics at Heathrow show that ab initio trainees have a higher chance of validating than those who are already valid from another unit.

Previously-valid controllers from less busy units sometimes find it difficult, as they have been conditioned to operate in a totally different environment. Trainees who arrive direct from the college have no prior experience of how busy the outside world of ATC actually is, and are therefore slightly less unnerved by the sheer carnage that is going on around them.

[VectorLine]

Cheers Farny for the explanation

It's quite confusing when they use the term 1/2 spine point as an indication of the salary increase. I thought we were to go 1/2 or 1 point up the existing scale.

Maybe they should have said it was an increase in salary equivalent to 1/2 a spine point. That would make more sense.

Anyway. It's really serving to increase animosity among the units. I am lucky[?] to be at a band 5 unit, so will benefit (if the vote is yes) from the largest percentage increase - but I don't feel that the deal is fair.

I understand that there are also going to be WP changes. We at Swanwick will have some changes to our night staffing and a 0530 spin shift. Are there similar changes being rumoured at other units? It would be hard to see how the whole NATS ATCO population could be voting on a deal which involved local WP agreements.

I'm confused - I look forward to official communication from Prospect (whom I refuse to refer to as a union)

[Arkady]

Farny

This issue of whether or not the rebanding is increasing the existing spine points or is accelerated progression up a longer scale has been the subject of some conjecture at LACC. I was originally of the same opinion as yourself, a percentage rise of the existing spine points. I have since heard convincing arguments that it will be accelerated progression up the scale, not least being that it will not increase the anticipated wage bill for T&Ds moving onto the ATCO pay scale.

The joint statement does not make it clear which method is being used and should make no practical difference to those already on the ATCO payscale.

I await my brief from the union with unbridled anticipation.

[PA7]

Membership Briefing Meetings are going to take place over the next 3 weeks with Farnborough being on Friday 13th Feb need I say more!!!:(

[SonicTPA]

I think someone must have broken a few mirrors. Seen any black cats???
(or was it a teddy?)

Sonic