East Mids Departures 13/01/04 pm

[Capt. Manuvar]

I noticed yesterday(the 13th, maybe that explains it :}) that the east midlands departures sounded (couldn't see anything due clouds) a bit low.
I live under the B4 FL105+ and usually dont hear or see EGNX arrivals/departures. i know that the daventry SID completely avoids the city of leicester and passes the west of it. I was on the east of the city during the afternoon(1300-1500) and heard at least one aircraft every 5-10 mins.
I'm just want to know cos i fly spamcans out of Leicester EGBG.
Do east mids departures(airliners) sometimes fly out of CAS?
Every night (around 2300hrs) i noticed a low flying airliner (landing lts on) flying westwards over the city(possibly towards SAPCO) at no more than 5000'ish. Might have been hard to guess the exact height but its loud enough to drown out conversation.
I also saw a Turboprop fly over leicester EGBG at no more than 3000' (Overhead for EGBG is 2500') a couple months back.
I'm not alarmed:sad: , i just want to know if i should be extra vigilant for jets.
The other option could be that an airliner was doing touch and goes at leicester:} :} :} :} .
Capt. manuvar

[almost professional]

Capt M
EMA where on easterlies for most of yesterday-you are right in that the SID track from 09 routes north and west of the city, and no our outbounds do not normally leave CAS unless for WX avoidance etc!
there was a Ryanair B737 in the circuit for a large part of the day though
the aircraft over leicester at night is very likely a freighter routing downwind for 09, coming direct from CLN, and yes that one is outside cas-we do try to hold them high to clear the built up areas and also to ease the conflictions with 09 deps-as for aircraft operating over egbg-well perhaps cottesmore are better placed to answer that! though the amount of transit traffic that routes over/close to egbg at all levels has to be seen/worked to be believed!
if you are that interested/concerned then why not drop ATC a line and come to visit-perhaps a group from egbg?

[Capt. Manuvar]

almost professional
Thanks for the reply. I must have heard the ryanair 737. I've been planning to visit the east midlands ATC for a while but i can't find time.
Capt.M

[acbus1]

How come Ryanair were allowed in the circuit almost all day when they arent based ema? Dont their base airfield like the noise. Do ema people not mind the noise or arent they given any choice in the matter. What are the noise policies at ema? None existant?

[almost professional]

There are noise restrictions at EMA, even in the circuit-however we are an airport, we do have spare capacity, and the airlines have a requirement to train-we are fulfilling a need and it is also good business for the airport
look out for Easyjet, GSS and more Ryanair in the near future and if anyone else needs a place to bash the circuit then drop the ATC supervisor a line!

[Anthony Carn]

.........if anyone else needs a place to bash the circuit then drop the ATC supervisor a line!
My friends around EMA tell me of the noise created by training flights. EMA is well known as a "training airfield". Relatively low level flying (relative to departures on SID's), often at high power on one engine (the other engine idling, of course) creates a living hell for some of these people.

And here we have an example of the disdain with which the concerns about nuisance are treated.

"Roll up, roll up ! Come to EMA and make loads of noise! Train as much as you want. The residents are tame. They complain. We ignore them! Roll up, roll up!"

[almost professional]

we take our environmental responsibilities very seriously, both as an airport and ATC, the training is mostly mon/fri 9-5, done at 2000ft, circuit direction varied and little if any single engine work.
However the training needs to be done somewhere so why not east mids?-we are an airport, yes we do create noise, but our complaints are falling year on year, we are also a business and I fail to see why we should turn away trainers from an airport that has provided this facililty since 1965-a lot longer than most complainers have been in the area-if you do not like airport noise do not live near one-though judging by the amount of sold signs up in Kegworth that does not seem to put many people off!

[Anthony Carn]

......if you do not like airport noise do not live near one.....
I totally agree. If you buy a house in Kegworth, then don't moan if your life becomes (as it will) a living hell whilst operators do their training. (the same operators, by the way, who are'nt allowed to train from their own bases because of noise restrictions there).

The start of this thread, however, was made by someone who heard aircraft noise at low level for an extended period in the EAST of LEICESTER!!!!

So when buying a house which "is'nt too close to an airport", how flipping far do you have to go?????? Maybe the onus is on the Airport to keep the noise within reasonable boundaries.


My main argument, though, is that EMA is regarded as one of the training airfields of the UK. A free-for-all. As many as you like. The equal sharing of training flights (and their noise nuisance) throughout the UK is a farcical failure, supported by statements on this thread (which I've stored for future use).

Maybe the complaints are falling of (which I don't understand) because people have given up trying to put forward a reasonable case.

God help the ignored residents of the East Midlands area if the proposed expansion occurs. They'll be starting a Commercial Flying School if that happens. "Come bash the circuit with us. Noise not a problem. Make as much racket as you like over as big an area as you want."

[almost professional]

Mr Carn-what is your beef?
the original post was about aircraft noise that may or may not have been an aircraft in the circuit at EMA, you have no way of knowing, also the question was asked because it was so unusual!
the training needs to be done somewhere and with the right restrictions and procedures in place why not EMA -you seem to have taken great exception to what was intended as a tongue in cheek comment at the end of a post-as for your comment 'stored for future use' a threat perhaps?

[Anthony Carn]

Mr Carn-what is your beef?
My beef ? Why British, of course!

My point (there, much "nicer" word) has been made in my previous posts on this thread.

A expected, there's a reluctance to remove the blinkers and appreciate the complainant's point of view.

I leave the audience to decide, albeit an audience which, for the most part, probably does'nt live close ( or even in Leicester) to THE training airport of the UK.

[plantzzman]

Almost Prof are you so blinded by the EMA hype that you dont see that EMA shoots itself in the foot when it takes on large amounts of training aircraft that do not base themselves or even operate any flights from the airport.
It is vital that as a business EMA has the support of local people.
I see it as give and take. Locals cut the airport some slack and dont harp on so much about higher flight numbers at night from the cargo area and EMA cut out the training flights which serve no purpose to the local community but just simply line the airports pockets.
I have seen aircraft such as the Ryanair flights go round and round and round and round and round which must drive people spare living nearby.
The airport may well have offered such flights to airlines for decades but due to massive growth these last few years in propper flights the airport isnt the same place as it was.
As for plenty of sold signs in Kegworth it all depends I guess on what price you sell your house for-make them cheap enough and people will buy them anywhere.
I have supported the airport in recent years when it has got a right slagging from people in local papers regarding flights but I cannot defend what I see as the missuse of the airport.
Would be like me sitting in my car outside your house reving my cars engine for a few hours.You would soon be out threatening fire and brimstone which must be pretty much what its like for residents near EMA.Thank god I live far enough away.

[eyeinthesky]

Oh for heaven's sake, get real!!

It doesn't take a genius to work out that an airport will generate noise. That can be under approach or climb-out areas, and also under SID routes. It might even be in the circuit. If you are the sort of person who is bothered by this, then a look at a map and a little research will show you which are the higher-risk areas for noise. Don't go and live there then.

These are all businesses and, judging by the number of mail flights I see going in and out of EMA every night, I imagine they inject quite a lot of money, not to say employment, into the local economy. How are they supposed to make money and remain viable if they can't operate the very machines upon which their business depends? EMA is quite fortunate in that it is relatively free of built up areas close to the airport. Compare it with Manchester, Birmingham, Heathrow, or any others you like.

As for training, what would you rather they did? Go to another airport and do it there? Sounds a bit NIMBYish to me. Not practice at all on the aircraft but do it on the sim? So you wouldn't mind boarding your 737 as a pax knowing that one of the guys up front was about to fly the 737 for real for the first time in his life?? Thought not.

By the way, the M1 is not a million miles from Kegworth (as BMA found out a few years ago...). It makes one hell of a racket, especially when it's been raining. I think that we should not allow people to drive on it when it's wet because of the noise to surrounding residents. Also, I think people should be banned from cutting their grass on a weekend because it makes such a noise.

For Capt Manuvar:

We send EMA flights direct to the EME at night from the CLN direction or even east of that. This is to save time and hassle, and also minimises the total noise footprint (the aircraft is in the air for less total time on a shortcut.) You will see that this will take the aircraft east of Leicester descending to join the approach. Some of those aircraft are 727s which are not known for their quietness! :(

[Barnaby the Bear]

Here here!
I heard a story of a guy that used to live close to Heathrow. Complained about the noise, then left and moved to the south coast.
Instead of avoiding airports he moved close to final approach in Bournemouth and complained there too.
Could just be a fable, but you get idiots like that near most airports.
Maybe his solicitor forgot that part in the local searches.
P.S I see East Mids is now Nottingham East Midlands. :=

[plantzzman]

eyeinthesky said "As for training, what would you rather they did? Go to another airport and do it there? Sounds a bit NIMBYish to me. Not practice at all on the aircraft but do it on the sim? So you wouldn't mind boarding your 737 as a pax knowing that one of the guys up front was about to fly the 737 for real for the first time in his life?? Thought not."

Going somewhere else is the general idea Eyeinthesky-I dont have a problem with airlines training at EMA who operate from the airport and iam sure many local people also dont have a problem with this. Even to a certain extent none operating airlines doing abit of practice but Ryanair take it to the max and buzz around all day without a care in the world. This doesnt affect me as I live far enough away for it not to be an issue.
As for the issue of boarding a 737 knowing one of the guys upfront was about to fly for the first time having been to South America a couple of times myself the pilots might aswell have not flown before.
Anyways now the airports sold out to Dodge City sorry Nottingham I dont give a monkeys chuff as to what the tin pot operation allows flightwise. One things for sure there are many people in both Derbyshire and Leicestershire who are not happy about the name change of the airport.As it's in Leicestershire EMA should hope the planners at the Leicestershire councils dont also bare a grudge.
:ok:

[eyeinthesky]

QUOTE

councils dont also bare a grudge

UNQUOTE

Should be interesting to see these naked grudges... or did you mean BEAR?

I'm not sure I follow your argument. You seem to be saying that it's OK to make a lot of noise doing training if you're based at the airport (or even occasionally if you're not) but not if you're Ryanair? Surely noise pollution is the same whoever makes it? There is no case of one noise being less annoying than another, is there?

You also haven't addressed the point of the effect upon the local economy of the airport being successful and able to attract such business as Ryanair's training. Would you rather see movements decline and the possible impact that would have on local jobs?

You seem to have strong sense of local identity (the Leicestershire/Derbyshire/Notts issue obviously offends you). I would have thought that you'd be pleased that a local facility was doing well and attracting business. But you seem to be more interested in trying to dictate what they can and can't do. How will that benefit your local area?

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Eyeinthesky:

Plantzzman objects to the term NIMBY as I discovered in another thread. He seems to me to display a lack of awareness when it comes to the commercial side of life.

For his benefit - Some airports thrive or indeed survive on light aircraft traffic/small flying schools, some airports thrive on a mix of commercial airline traffic and offering available runway capacity to airlines for circuit bashing. Some airports thrive on the commercial airline traffic alone and become so busy that they cannot allocate any runway time for training.....

EMA like Shannon, Manston, Prestwick etc are in the position whereby they are ideally suited to and probably need to avail their facilities to base training and so that is what they do!

It's not hard to see why they do it and people like you who say "It's ok to do it but Not In My Back Yard are (can you guess???)

I'm thinking here you probably get the message!

:ok:

[plantzzman]

Eyeinthesky I guess iam not coming across very well.
These are my feelings-
Is the airport good for the local area- YES
Does it support local communities with employment- YES
Does it offer a wider range of travel oppertunities for local people -YES
Should airlines which operate from EMA be able to do training flights from EMA- YES Why? Because as an airline operating from EMA they are adding to the development of the airport and local businesses bringing prosperity to the community which the community should accept with open arms.
Should airlines which dont operate flights from EMA (or base there) be able to do training flights from EMA? NO why? because by simply training and then leaving the airline is offering very little to the local economy etc.It brings no passengers to the local area or provides work for local people. It brings no freight so other than money in the pocket of the airport it brings nothing other than stress for local people.
I dont class myself as a NIMBY Not In My Back Yard as I class the airport as very important for the local area and have defended the airport in local newspapers from the many people who would like it closed down so iam pro the airport but just with reservations. I wouldnt use the place myself as they do not operate to anywhere I would like to travel to. It just strikes me that allowing so many training flights is bad business-yes it gives a quick and easy fix of cash but in later times when the airport wants more expansion which is greatly important it's then that local people rock the boat which in many respects is the airports own fault with short term greed-you reap what you sow.
On the bare council front having just been to a local council meeting the very thought makes me feel quite ill. Interestingly there were some Leicester councillors at the meeting. The airport cropped up in conversation after the meeting-to say they were unhappy is an under statement.
May I assure you of my best intentions.