Aviance awarded Air France contract @ MAN.... [Archive]

phoenix son

15th Jan 2004, 07:15

777,

I think we're getting our wires crossed here - I'm not disputing the fact that AF crews are extremely professional, I just feel that the way this is put across to the guys on the ground leaves something to be desired. We both agree on a lot of issues regarding standards/training etc from our discussions regarding VS at LHR - It's clear to me that you certainly know your stuff and I certainly like to think that I do - Like you, I came from a reputable national carrier at LHR only to be extremely disappointed by the way things were at what I expected to be a dynamic,professional, breath of fresh air, and we were both sadly mistaken.
I think what I found difficult with AF crews was that as a member of Handling Agent staff I was expected NOT to be knowledgeable about the majority of issues, simply because that is the standard they had come to expect - I knew I was better than that and felt frustrated at constantly having to prove myself. From this point of view this is one of the big failings of the Handling Agents (certainly Servisair at MAN), that they recruit inexperienced staff and throw them in at the deep end with an inadequate level of training (yet another example of this!) so they are unable to provide the standard of Dispatch that is expected by the likes of AF.
Hope you can see my point of view and realise that I am more or less in agreement with you,

Regards,

PHX

mr.777

15th Jan 2004, 17:36

Crossing of wires noted Phoenix.That was basically my point...once again you hit the nail on the head.Apologies for any offence caused (I wrote that before I received your PM):O

777

Stud3

16th Jan 2004, 01:29

The post was not concerning the professionalism of the flight deck crew, i admire them. Regardless of how professional or how crap a dispatcher you are, no-one deserves to be spoken down too, or have doors closed on you becase the crew dont wish to speak to you. We would almost certainly be sacked if we spoke to any crew in that manner so we dont expect it back.

If there policy is not to board until -15mins untill CTOT then fair enough, but it would be nice to have a memo from regional if this is the case, as it only seems to be regional that never board ontime if there is a slot restriction.

MONSOIRC

16th Jan 2004, 01:45

Two Items

1. I think you will find that Servisair left AF and not the other way round....money me thinks. It certainly did not have anything to do with lack of experience on the Dispatchers part and

2. I believe the reason why they never board/push park is due to the Flight Deck receiving pay from the moment brakes are off.

phoenix son

16th Jan 2004, 06:20

"Monsoir" (surely a good name for a discussion on AF?)

Hope it is correct that Servisair left AF - Perhaps finally the penny has dropped i.e. if the contract does not make enough money and the customer expects too much for nothing because that is the way it has always been then LET THEM GO...
Glad to see that Servisair/Globe/ServisairGlobe/etc finally sees this, although maybe a case of too little too late(???) I suspect you are well placed to comment either way...
Can't comment about the second point but I don't feel I am speaking out of turn to say that the French crews are pretty hot when it come to agreements bashed out by the unions!!!

Regards,

PHX

EGGPOPS

18th Jan 2004, 05:59

Yes Aviance have lost Ezy at Liverpool But no they are still there and have some good contracts in the pipeline (Mon Chx Vlm )

S/air undercut Aviances bid by a large amount but the service Ezy now gets proves you get what you pay for:ok:

jimbols6

19th Jan 2004, 07:03

are servisair having problems at MAN cos we are having problems at leeds also, it pritty much the same taking on inexperienced staff who dnt give at **** and then leave after three weeks and where back to square one. and the staff at leeds who are experienced end up being kept on the lowest rate of pay which A1 on the pay scale which is well **** and is not fair. just wonder how it works at MAN a few of us are thinking of transfering over!!
Also we have a big contract with Jet2 that pay almost nothing for handling and expected the earth.
i think the company is really going down hill fast :(
any info will be much appriciated

cheers

ChrisBowler

20th Jan 2004, 00:45

HI

WITH REGARDING THE FIRST FEW POINTS MADE WITH ABOUT RUMORS IN THE INDUSTRY, I WORK AS DISPATCH AND LOAD CONTROL AT SOU AND THE CONTRACT WITH AVIANCE IS NOW UP FOR GRABS, GLOBE FLEW IN TODAY AND G* ARE INTERESTED. MY PERSONAL OPINION AVIANCE, EVEN THOUGH THEY CURRENTLY HAVE STILL 29% OF THE MARKET SHARE, ARE GOING TO LOSE MANY MORE STATIONS MAINLY DUE TO THE CURRENT LOCAL AND NATIONAL PAY DISSPUTES. ALSO THE FACT THAT THEY CANNOT LOOK AFTER THEIR STAFF, IN MY EXPERIENCE, KEEPS MORAL LOW AND FLIGHTS STRUGGLING TO DEPART ON TIME. ALSO THEY ARE TRYING TO CHANGE TO CENTRALISED LOAD PLAN ACCROSS ALL THEIR STATIONS, MEANING LOAD SHEETS ARE PRODUCED IN MY CASE LGW. THIS IS KEEPING STAFF IN JOBS IN LGW CUTTING COSTS AND CREATING MONEY AS AIRLINES ARE NOW PAYING DOUBLE, DISPATCH AND LOAD CONTROL. STILL CLP AT SOU IS TOTALLY CR** AND DELAYS MORE FLIGHT THAN GO ON TIME. THIS ALL POINTS TOWARDS AVIANCE HAVING NATIONAL STRIKES AND ANGRY AIRLINES SO KEEP AN EYE ON SOU.

AND WITH REGARD TO AF, AT SOU THEY ARE AMUSING. THEY PUSH LATE AND CALL UP REQUESTING OFF ON TIME. THIS IS REGULAR SO IT LOOKS GOOD ON YOUR RECORD. ALSO IF THEY GIVE ANY UNJUSTIFIED HASSLE JUST TAKE THE LOAD SHEET AND WALK THEY WILL SOON LEARN.

ENJOY CHRIS

MONSOIRC

20th Jan 2004, 02:50

Jimbols
See PM's

jimbols6

20th Jan 2004, 04:42

cheers MONSOIRC ive sent you a reply.

ChrisBowler: centrelised load control this shows that people running the company have no idea or interest in airports or how they are run. Image having to ring london every time you need a new loadsheet and it will happen because flightdeck are always changing there minds about fuel, DOW crew config etc no disrespect to flightdeck or anything its just part of the job, and not forgetting the last minute changes LMC's, offloads etc. times a couple of fussy flightdeck by all the other stations and uve easierly got a nice delay while you wait for your new loadsheet to print off.
most flightdeck will probable get feed up of waiting and start doing their own loadsheets.
its about time some of these bigwigs went back to the floor and tried living on our wages for a week then id like to see what they have got to say!!

phoenix son

20th Jan 2004, 05:52

Jimbols,

Not sure what MONSOIRC told you in PM - Suspect he can give you the lowdown on current MAN Servisair situation (which I understand to be "fluid" at the moment).
Agree with your thoughts about CLP - I have been on both sides of the fence and can't say I found it particularly workable in either situation - The best person to be dealing with the W+B for any given flight has GOT to be the Dispatcher at the gate...

and

Chris Bowler,

NO NEED TO SHOUT!!!

Regards,

PHX

BEST L/CONTROLLER

21st Jan 2004, 02:51

From what Chris Bowler said Aviance are having the same probs as Servisair,

I do know Aviance at LBA are having some difficulties at the MO, mainly because, and I'm sure this is at other stations aswell, When BMI were self handling and Aviance took over, they carried on paying Aviance staff the same as what they were on at BMI, which as we all know, if you're a handling agent trying to undercut the other your gonna run out of money, the staff at LBA Aviance are on a considreble amount more than Servisair for this reason,

We lost the Tyrolean contract to Aviance 3 days before the schedule started, and we understand that Servisair gave it away due to it not being worth it, what do Aviance think about that then!

The problem at Servisair LBA is we have 2 airlines who operate the most from here, and they pay very little, now whoever is nagotiating these contracts needs to sort somthing out here before all of us ends up in the dole que.

Also CLP is the worst thing anyone can do, there will be **** up after **** up, but it's not happening to Servisair yet, so lets see how it goes with Aviance, if it ever gets off the ground that is, JIMBO I agree, those people at the top now nothing.

CHEERS!!!!!!!:ok:

nibor

21st Jan 2004, 23:33

I heard a few weeks back that the beancounters at Servisair have finally worked out that some contracts are not worth the s**t that goes with them and the policy of undercutting the competition to get contracts has stopped.
The new policy is to get all staff trained up to a decent level of competence so that the level of service is equal at all stations.
And when it comes to contract negotiations the policy will be to tell airlines what service they are going to be given and what it will cost, if the airline does not like the bill then rather than slash the cost they are told to f**k off to aviance.

This new attitude has seen a couple of crap contracts go but a major one with easy has been gained and the yanks love the idea and are queing up.

On a different note, Is it true that BMI are trying to get out of the contract with aviance early ? This would answer the question on why there is an embargo on capital expediture at the moment.

p.s. I agree with everyone else about CLP. Whoever dreamed that one up needs to get back to reality.

jimbols6

22nd Jan 2004, 04:24

nibor:

if what your saying is true it would explain a lot at Leeds, the management seemed to fight on and on until they the contract for the low cost airline Jet2 and now they are counting the cost., and would rather not have it anymore, plus Jet2 are a pain in the arse. want ever the airline it is always going to cost X for a turnaround and airlines are gona have to pay this whether they are low cost or not.

Cheers!!!!:ok:

Silkman

22nd Jan 2004, 06:11

Best L/controller....

Please explain what difficulties Aviance are having at LBA ?? Net operating PROFIT of over 30% each month against Servisairs monthly LOSS...
Aviance staff are on a higher salary than Servisair in general but Aviance will not take a contract if it does not make a profit. Simple business sense.

For your info, Aviance LBA gained the Austrian group contract 6 weeks before the schedule started. It appears your management failed to tell you that Servisair had lost it ! Austrian is a gap filler.No extra staff required as all are on shift who would otherwise be sitting around doing nothing but now earning some revenue. Again, good business sense.:ok:

BEST L/CONTROLLER

22nd Jan 2004, 07:05

Obviousley the info I have from Aviance is from a scource their, I wouldn't know the details unless I owned the company so if my info is incorrect then I appologise,

what I do know is, that Austrian airlines was under the impression Servisair was handling them 3days before the schedule started, THAT IS FACT!!!!! so weather or not Servisair didn't inform anyone, maybe it was Aviance and Servisair between them that came up with the plan, don't know?? but Austrian definately didn't know until Thursday 18th December 2003,

Ifyou have anymore info then spill!!!!

CHEERS!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

Tony_EM

22nd Jan 2004, 18:21

"Good business sense"?????

Sorry Silkman, I had to nasally exhale my coffee when I saw that one. I could give you plenty of examples where Aviance not only lack business sense, but are risking peoples lives unnecessarily in order to maintain their profits.

In my experience, BMHS which effectively went on to become Aviance at LHR was in the habit of taking on new contracts and work without employing new staff or even training the ones they have. The management, past and present have always had the attitude that the staff will just have to cope. Just because they manage much of the time while the rest is covered up does not make it good business sense, unless you are endorsing the failure to comply with safety regulations as 'good business'.

When aviance first bought out BMHS at LHR, the staff was kept on the same wages for over a year, despite the promise that they would get the same as the rest of the Aviance network rates, which was considerably more than what BMHS was paying. The ramp eventually did get the increase they were promised, but the load controllers did not, meaning that many ramp workers were getting paid more than L/Cs.

It is true that Aviance were in a position of having too many staff, but that was only because they lost so many contracts. When I left, we were desperately short in ops yet they refused to recruit from check-in because they were short, and they refused to recruit outside because of budget restrictions.

They can't even provide the load plans and trim sheets for the aircraft they handle, expecting inexperienced L/Cs to trim a DC10 with an A300 trim sheet.

Good business? If they ever cause a big smoking hole (which I sincerely hope they do not), their version of 'good business' will be exposed for all to be appalled at, until then please do me the favour of NOT trying to pretend they are a professional outfit.

BEST L/CONTROLLER

22nd Jan 2004, 19:24

BRAVO!!

They are far from a professional outfit, the dispatchers, manage some how to dispatch there a/c from the L/C office at LBA, how is this possible when the dispatcher should be driving the turn/round at the a/c side, well??????

Most of the staff who were with BMHS at LBA are the professional ones, it's the one they've taken on since!!

CHEERS!!!!!!:ok:

nibor

22nd Jan 2004, 22:55

REDCAP
You seem to have missed the point.
Centralised load control does work for individual airlines because there is only one set of procedures to follow.
It breaks down when handling agents try to use it because each airline and airport have a slightly different interpretation of the published standards and requirements in the AHM.

Also the two examples you gave are of local load control and not true centralised load control.

Most handling agents at airports where i have been use local load control. This is where a load contol department prepares all loading instructions and loadsheets for their station and sends them to the gate for the dispatcher to collect. It works very well because if there is a question everyone knows who to contact and therefore any problems are sorted out quickly and easily.

Cenralised load control differs in that a single office at one airport does the entire load control function for every flight at every airport. The main problem with this idea is that if a loader at BHX has a question regarding a loading instruction they would have to contact the load controller at MAN (example) to get the answer. Now everyone knows that this is not going to happen, a guess will be made and hopefully it will not cause a problem. But one day it will matter and people may die as a result.

The only reason that any company would consider centralised load control a valid option is when they are in such a financial hole that the cost savings outway the risk.
Apart from Aviance i do not know of any other handling agent that has gone down this path yet and hope that none do.

Tony_EM

22nd Jan 2004, 23:47

Sometimes, the system you learn first is the one that makes most sense, usually because of your familiarity with it.

Redcap, so you don't embarass yourself by using that debating technique against me; I have over 5 years ops experience at LHR with over 15 different airlines, 4 different wgt/bal systems and am a qualified SQ wgt/bal trainer. I also have 300hrs on a US PPL and studied AeroEng til it hurt, which gave me a solid background to learn so much about ops.

My brother was wgt/bal trained by KLM and also had 3 years experience before moving on to air traffic control and my father worked 17+ years at LHR, also for KLM.

We spent many hours discussing the various merits of dedicated despatching and CLP.

There are so many different types of CLP where the respective despatcher and gate controller have varying tasks and responsibilities, so stating that CLP is better and cheaper (or not) is a sweeping statement that depends entirely on which particular manifestation of CLP you are talking about and exactly who it saves money for over what period of time.

If you are saying that CLP, as it was originally concieved, works well, then I can't completely disagree, as long as you are talking about well trained office and gate staff that know eachothers' jobs well, because they swap regulary, and that have been well trained while retaining well defined responsibilities and authority.
If you are referring to the perverted mutation of CLP that exists in many ops depts these days, then it is you that has a lot to learn.

I had a good reputation for very short turnarounds. Why? Because I got to know the people in every company/department I worked with at a personal level. Rather than shove demands and regulations down a phone line, I could make effective decisions outside of the box in time to make a difference with the authority to carry it through. If I had to phone someone up who really did not know the deal at the gate in that particular instance and I had to waste 10 minutes describing the problem only to be given a solution that was inneffective and too late, I would not have been able to prevent as many delays as I did.
I also knew the problems of each dept as well as the merits and shortfalls of the particular staff from the various companies/depts, which made it very easy to identify where the potential problem/delay would be coming from and I was therefore able to preempt it with planning or by direct resources/effort where it was needed. I was also known for getting my hands dirty and loading bags/cargo, helping to clean planes, load catering and help boarding. Basically, whatever was threatening to delay my flight.

Now, there is no reason that CLP type ops should not be able to achieve the same, except for the fact that the drive to cut costs has perverted the circumstances creating more of a barrier for efficient planning and utilisation of resources than fascilitating short turnarounds.

It always seemed to me that if an airline wanted to cut costs, they should improve efficiency by concentrating on the ability to coordinate resources and efforts effectively and direct improvements where they will best support those goals. So saving a few pennies by having a crappy CLP system while losing ponds through the increased delays and inefficient use of resources just never made sense to me. It also confirmed that the people making such decisions where after personal praise and gain rather than looking at the operation/company as a whole.

I spent 6 months of my own time and effort studying the problem. The procedures and systems I developed where designed to increase operational efficiency and effectiveness without the need to employ more staff in the long term or buy expensive equipment. It relied on extensive training which was one-off and could then be imparted through the way that key departments would be restructured, mainly load control. The plan was also designed to prevent the appalling amount of errors that seemed to be increasing exponentially.

What happened was that the management in their infinite ignorance took elements of the plan, applied them in an abstractly stupid way, called it their own genius and proceded to blame the workforce when it didn't work.

I really do hope that you work with a CLP system that works well, but don't for a second delude yourself that every CLP system works that way. The vast majority of those that I researched were clearly less effective while a few were incompetently run to the point of being a threat to safety.

Saving a few quid in one department's budget while making other departments less efficient and the operation more costly and less safe is something only accountants and wannabe managers can like.

Good points Nibor.

We had a traffic coordinator that would sit in the despatch officemanning phones and generally supervising the staff.

There were times when I had tight turnarounds and was stuck in some hold stacking stuff to get the plane out on time,where I would radion the TC and ask him to enter last minute changes in the system and send a loadsheet to my gate. It was a useful way to cut a few more minutes off a delay.

This stopped when BMHS and Aviance saw fit to put people in this TC position that knew nothing about the airline, system or aircraft I was using. It may have saved the handling agent a few pennies in training etc, but cost the airlines so much more. An airline would never dream of doing such a stupid thing, but I think I have yet to see the depths of stupidity to which a handling company will go, and get away with.

redcap

23rd Jan 2004, 00:08

Tony EM

Please do not over glorify yourself!

So you was employed by BMHS/Aviance in T3 LHR!

BIG DEAL

If you claim to be an SQ trainer, you trained people on line in the proceedures of SQ. You are not employed by SQ as a trainer!

Wow we have all worked for BMHS/AVIANCE and if it was not for them then alot of people would never have been given the chance to do the job they do today!

15 different airlines? oh please T3 doesnt have that many contracted airlines! thats probably aviances total number of contracts at LHR, and im sure you do not work at all 4 terminals! you may be trained in DCS/Dplan and Kriscom/codeco....................again big deal!

And over 5 years in avaince ops.........even bigger deal! you wouldnt know true ops if it jumped up and bit you on ya ass!

:ok:

Tony_EM

23rd Jan 2004, 03:22

Trained in singapore, by Singapore Airlines and issued with an SQ licence to teach wgt/bal for their 744s and A340s in fact.

I was initially trained by Iberia and worked closely with IB ops for the first 2 years. The significance is that I worked with people who had over 30 years experience in ops.

Some of the airlines I've despatched;

Iberia
Austrian
Canadian
Royal Brunei
Singapore Airlines
Biman Bangladesh
Turkmenistan
Cyprus
South African
British Midland
Nigerian
Qatar
Manx

As you can see, they are not all based in T3.

I'm not surprised you have to jump to such rash conclusions in order to call people liars. Spoken like a true Aviance manager;

you wouldnt know true ops if it jumped up and bit you on ya ass!

I remember in the olds days; despatchers used to get 6 month training before they were let near an aircraft. You are defending a company that sends complete novices out to full DC10s with only 2 weeks in a classroom and no support or supervision.

I may not know everything about ops, but I took it upon myself to learn as much as I could from as many sources as possible since BMHS and Aviance clearly had no intention of training me properly. The big deal is that LHR ops most experienced despatcher only had 2 years on 2 different airlines after I left. Their intention was always to get rid of people that made a fuss when corners were cut and regulations ignored. I was the last that learnt from the real professionals, enough to know real cowboy stuff when I see it which is the point I am trying to make.

Redcap...what is that, baggage porter and wheelchair pusher?

phoenix son

23rd Jan 2004, 05:18

Tony_EM,

Although we seem to have diversified a little from the original subject into more of a slanging match, I think it's fair to say that you know a fair bit about Dispatch and Ops.
The majority of us contributing to this thread agree that regardless of the Load Control system in use/system for Loadsheet distribution(CLP etc)/number of flights dispatched in each terminal or any other factors involved, there is NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCED STAFF......
Although Aviance seem to be getting a bad press here (I can't comment, I come into contact with them but don't deal directly), it's fair to say that this is the same story for any Handling Agent, who have gone down the road of providing the service the carriers want at the price they want(i.e. no profit in it,doing the job for peanuts) which means they want cheap, minimally trained staff out on the ramp a.s.a.p. to turn the aircraft around, whether they are capable of the job in hand or not. I have worked for Handling Agents (a number of years at Servisair amongst others) at a number of stations, as well as Airlines (see the recent thread regarding VS at LHR and you will realise that the Handling Agents are not alone in their plight) and no matter which station you look at, there will always be issues regarding training levels. This is not down to the individuals, much more the policies of the Management who in turn are under pressure from their superiors - Many of the Handling Agents are under pressure from the shareholders which is why costs are cut back so far in the first place.

A vicious circle???

Regards,

PHX

jimbols6

23rd Jan 2004, 05:54

can i just say it seems that everyone on this thread cares deeply about the jobs and the industry, but it is clear that in this country money is always going to come first it is a very sad fact but true. the only handling agent/airline who dnt seem to give a **** how much they spend is emirates/danata, ehich is a good think cos you get the right people an not any old tom,dick or harry of the street.

sometimes you have to f**k management and do what you know is right.

cheers!!!

p.s. Tony_EM
If I had to phone someone up who really did not know the deal at the gate in that particular instance and I had to waste 10 minutes describing the problem only to be given a solution that was inneffective and too late, I would not have been able to prevent as many delays as I did.
this is very true mate!!!!

BEST L/CONTROLLER

23rd Jan 2004, 06:13

CHEERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

Who'stheDaddy

23rd Jan 2004, 07:05

I'm not going to get too involved in the debate, i've made my feelings clear on the subject of handling agents/CLP vs dedicated dispatch already and some of the comments are just embarrassing.

Just one question:

jimbols6

Your statement about DNATA, the only handling agent who seem to want to spend lots?

I agree with the statement, yes lots spent on advertising and recruitment but I was offered a job with them, I've also spent some time in DXB and know a couple of people in the "Ground Dispatch" position. Their expansion is such that they are desperate to get people in and have even contacted people who turned them down to ask them again to join them.

It is a CLP based system for flights ex DXB the money isn't great for the GD's and from what I hear the CLP'ers are a grade lower (could be wrong on the latter???) even though they are doing the more technical part of the job - (I am not degrading thr role of co-ordination at the gate!! As I stated before i've been CLP and Load control), is this right???.

The dept appears to be run by ex UK/AUS and other expats and employ a very "diverse" workforce and from what I hear training is not up to scratch. If you are going to have paper runners at the gate communicating from there to CLP they HAD BETTER be able to interpret the information and communicate it properly or all that money means sod all.

WTD

phoenix son

23rd Jan 2004, 08:15

WTD,

Agreed that DNATA are not afraid to spend money on recruitment etc (although the way things are organised once someone is recruited is a joke).
A friend who started as a GD just before Christmas tells me that the training lasts around 6 weeks before they even get to see an aircraft, but of course that is no guarantee of the standard of this training. Understand that once you are on line as a GD then the bulk of the work is basically as a Loading Supervisor primarily based on the Ramp overseeing Freight/baggage loading, then reporting back to CLP who produce Loadsheets (i.e. no "hands-on" W+B work). A little frustrating for someone with W+B experience to have no hand in that side of things maybe? (Still would have jumped at the chance to work in DXB if I was a few years younger!)

Regards,

PHX

redcap

24th Jan 2004, 02:22

Tony EM

I do not want to get in a slagging match!

I am not an Aviance manager! wouldnt wanna be either! I am in Ops now, not pushing wheelchairs!

I also was offered a job with Dnata as GD, but turned them down as the money sucked.

I think some CLP work is good, some is not, so lets agree to have different views, I will go back to my Ops work, you go back and design gardens! lets get back to the original post!

Tony_EM

24th Jan 2004, 16:33

Ok, fair enough Redcap, truce offered.

I'm actually very eager to discuss the merits of CLP, especially from someone who considers it a good system, as long as they put forth a coherent arguement based on logical points or comparisons. Just attacking the people who disagree with your view will inevitably get a similar response. I see your post that inspired my initial response to you has been deleted so; water>bridge.

So, specifically, what is it about the CLP system that you like and what makes it better than having a dedicated load controller for each flight? Believe it or not, I am still willing to be convinced that it could be better since I am just keen to see the best way of getting an aircraft safely back out with an accurate loadsheet and secure load.

Please excuse the thread creep here, this may need a new one soon.

gobfa

28th Jan 2004, 08:04

Forgive me I am new to this forum, but cannot understand the comment below uttered by Tony_EM concerning Aviance

"They can't even provide the load plans and trim sheets for the aircraft they handle, expecting inexperienced L/Cs to trim a DC10 with an A300 trim sheet."

With his vast experience of handling numerous carriers, surely at some point he would have realised that airlines supply their handling agents with such documents and not his management.

Their only failing I can forsee is not having a system in place where one of the experienced dispatchers was made responsible for stock control.

In meantime look for the B****rd who took the last pad out and didn't tell anyone that he / she had done so.

Failing all get carrier to move onto CLC and all your problems would have been resolved.

Tony_EM

29th Jan 2004, 18:05

I believe this particular incident happened as soon as they took the contract for that particular carrier. Yes, there should be someone allocated to moniter and ensure that all paperwork is current and in stock, but that never happens at Aviance, who would struggle to cover the flights every day, let alone have time to do office work.

The point here is that the contract was taken on without proper thought or planning, so when a despatcher went to the management and told them "we can't trim these flights because we don't have the correct trim sheets" Rather than back up their staff (and the safety regulations) by telling the customer airline the truth, they just tell the despatcher to get it done regardless. Don't for a second assume that they will take the heat if something goes wrong.

You can't really blame the staff especially when they rarely get enough notice to even ask "do we have everything we need?" before they are 'selected' to go out and despatch a flight, let alone get trained for the a/c type, L/C system and procedures.

IceHouse

30th Jan 2004, 03:33

It has now been confirmed that Servisair/globeground will be embarking on new CLC project at Manch, this will start with covering MAN and several other UK stations and then building up to cover all uk/euopean stations if this project is a success.
CLC will be based at MAN although not actually on the airport but nearby, I'm yet to be convinced if this will be a success..

jimbols6

31st Jan 2004, 00:20

icehouse:
where did you here this and when is it happening?
:sad:

BEST L/CONTROLLER

31st Jan 2004, 00:44

Are you pulling our PISSER! this is the first I've heard of this, do you want to clarrify where you heard this from???

CHEERS!!!!!!:ok:

P.S it's not gonna work if it's true you know!!

IceHouse

31st Jan 2004, 20:46

Best L/controller

Can't say who I've heard it from but its pretty much common knowledge on our station, I think the company is looking to bring loadcontrol under one roof and have gate agents instead of dispatchers at all the out stations in the future rather than dispatchers. Also remember that in the states, dispatchers are the guys with the licence who make ops decisions/planning and those guys at the aircraft who do the turnaround are known as rampers who board and also moniter the turnaround, so I think they might be looking at saving money in the long run by implementing this. I might be completely wrong this the reason for this though, also remember that all licenced flights LH/PK/EK etc will still need to be covered by licenced dispatchers at the aircraft so this CLC can only cover charter carriers and few scheduled airlines.

cwllpl

1st Feb 2004, 19:02

MAN_Ops

True EZY did go to curcusair at lpl as EGGPOPS said, but as for Aviance pulling out of LPL, i don't think so. it is one of the fastest growing airports in the uk, and with the capital of culture will only grow.

Servisair tried to get Aviance to pull out by taking Ezy from them, but failed to realise that their own business would suffer. Euromanx left, Ryanair Dropped a route, BA pulled out of LPL, Air wales, came and went in days, and now jet magic have gone to.

Servisair will now realise that having the main carrier at an airport doesn't you are the biggest, they will find it hard to attract new business due to this, and it is going pear shaped very quickly for them here.

No staff, Very very very low morale.

jimbols6

1st Feb 2004, 22:33

Icehouse:

when is the CLC due to start. is it in the next 6 months??

cwllpl: it seems that servisair are the same everywhere.

cheers!!!:suspect:

IceHouse

2nd Feb 2004, 00:37

Jimbols6

CLC to start within 2 months apparently

jimbols6

2nd Feb 2004, 03:42

ok looks like they are trying to start it before the summer season is it just at MAN at first or do you know what other stations are gona come under the hat?
Servisair are pritty poor at the best of times so i dnt no how they think this sort of system will work!!:suspect:

surely not

3rd Feb 2004, 01:09

There are letters out to the customers re this CLC issue. That's pretty poor if the staff haven't been told!

I've heard that aviance are making a better percentage profit at LPL without the EZY contract so if this is true it seems unlikely they would pull out.

BEST L/CONTROLLER

3rd Feb 2004, 05:53

I'm telling you now CLC will not happen for Servisair, I will bet as much money on that, if I'm proved wrong then I'll appologies.
I'ts not gonna work anyway for obviouse reasons, and I'm sure we're not gonna get into the reasons WHY again!!!!

This bussines with Aviance at LPL, tell me, who do they actually handle, FR (servisair) EZY (servisair) BY (servisair) GX before they went bust (servisair) MON (servisair) 3X euromanx (servisair) BA (servisair) MYT (servisair) can't think of many other carrieres but list them and I'll tell ya who handles them, if Servisair handle all these carriers at LPL can't see somehow that Aviance can be making much money MMm.

CHEERS!!!!!!!:ok:

Speedmaster

3rd Feb 2004, 06:45

Heard that servisair in Newcastle in lot of trouble due to staffing levels. There is a threat that their licence to operate at the airport will be withdrawn

cumberland

3rd Feb 2004, 06:52

Your ignorance makes me ill! or should I say you love for Servisair blinds you.

euromanx 6 x per week day, 10 per weekend and will grow when BACX pull out in March(Aviance) Monarch (Aviance) VLM 5 daily 5 at the weekend (Aviance) Channel Express 4 nightly frt flt's BIG MONEY little overheads (Aviance) Iberworld (Aviance) Air Europa (Aviance) LTE and BHAir (Aviance)!! Guess who has won two baggage handling contracts at LPL?

AVIANCE:ok:

Who will be the only handling agent at LPL with full handling status. NO! now don't be silly, it ain't Servisair!.

Keep up the good work :cool:

BEST L/CONTROLLER

3rd Feb 2004, 19:24

Trust me, my love for Servisair has nothing to do with this,

These carriers you mention, are obviousley charter carriers, which are not regular daily operaters, Euromanx is the only one that is regular aswell as the freighters, unless it's changes in the last week or so, Euromanx is handled by Servisair.. BACX untill they pull out are handle by Servisair... carriers such as Ryanair and Easyjet are regular at the airport and come winter all your wonderful Aviance handled BUCKET &SPADE flts will be be cut dramatically, hope they make money with the baggage handlling and the freighters,

CHEERS!!!

P.S i take offence at you saying i LOVE Servisair LOL:ok:

cumberland

3rd Feb 2004, 20:28

No, euromanx have been handled by Aviance from the start of December, VLM sheduled..;)

I wonder what other airports will have done low low deals for special airlines? Some in the northwest of the UK?:\

jimbols6

4th Feb 2004, 04:39

Speedmaster:

i take it its because they dnt have enough staff? who has the say so on whether servisair keep their operating license is it NCL airport or an external authority??

BEST L/CONTROLLER

4th Feb 2004, 07:43

A collegue of mine at LPL informs me that Euromanx are handled by Aviance sorry for me saying that Servisair handle them, but they used to only a month or so ago, the Monarch contract has also been recently transferred to Aviance, I contacted him today on purpose to find this out, fair enough they handle the charter traffic but lets be honest here, in the winter you and I both know that its gonna drop at least 75% it's a fact, so maybe the money they make is by doing baggage handling, coz the charter traffic isn't the best money maker,

CHEERS!!!!:ok:

P.S sorry for the confusion,,

P.S I still take offence that you think I love Servisair!!!!!!!!:(

tugdriver

5th Feb 2004, 02:22

So then cumberland buff, what else do you have planned in lpl.

more airlines in the pipeline

cumberland

6th Feb 2004, 01:00

TUGDRIVER

Thats all I have for now my little sausage;)

Stud3

6th Feb 2004, 01:41

Heard that servisair in Newcastle in lot of trouble due to staffing levels. There is a threat that their licence to operate at the airport will be withdrawn

Care to explain your sources? Seems a rather vicious rumour, but i could be wrong?

jimbols6

6th Feb 2004, 01:46

speedmaster:

what is happening at Newcastle??
where did you get your info from??
:suspect: :suspect: :suspect:
:suspect: :suspect: :suspect:

BEST L/CONTROLLER

6th Feb 2004, 07:22

According to a scource friend of mine at SNBrussells, Servisair at NCL are not all their cut up to be, and that they are having probs, I worked there for a month approx 4yrs ago now and everything seemed fine to me, would like to know whats happening though.

CHEERS!!!!!:ok:

cwllpl

6th Feb 2004, 15:03

cumberland.

my big sausage. i thought you might like to see the following:

So...we are concentrating exclusively on "the best Cumberland Sausage you've ever tasted"

ps. i missed the web address off:

www.cumberland-sausage.net (http://www.cumberland-sausage.net)

i'll see you in hanger 4 next week. my big sausage.

Magic Buff

6th Feb 2004, 23:32

CWLLPL:

Only if you give a months notice big cumberland jockey on the victor vector, wallasey 2 tango::eek:

cumberland

7th Feb 2004, 00:16

To what level of stupidity are we to reach!!!!!!!!!!

03 headset man

12th Feb 2004, 02:59

is it true that servisair in liverpool have no staff and low morale
and have been served 30 days to improve there easyjet contract.
if they have then they only have themselves to blame and i belive more staff have gone back to work with aviance at liverpool due new work good luck it is a good company to work for.and aviance has enough equipment to to the job and servisair have poor equipment at liverpool ant comments

Magic Buff

13th Feb 2004, 00:39

03 HEADSET MAN
YOU ARE QUITE CORRECT ABOUT AVIANCE BEING A GOOD FIRM TO WORK FOR, THEY DO HAVE MORE FAITH IN THEIR STAFF AND THERE IS A CERTAIN LEVEL OF TRUST BETWEEN MANAGEMENT AND STAFF, NOT TO MENTION THAT THE EQUIPMENT IS SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER AND THE STAFF HIGHLY MOTIVATED.

BY ALL ACCOUNTS I THINK IT IS TRUE ABOUT THE 30 DAY WARNING AT SERVISAIR, THOUGH I AM NOT SURE WHAT WILL HAPPEN AT THE END OF THIS. THERE HAS SO FAR BEEN NO NOTICABLE IMPROVEMENT IN STANDARDS OF SERVICE.

BYE FOR NOW MY LITTLE LINCONSHIRE BEEF PRIME!!!!!!

03 headset man

13th Feb 2004, 02:47

well life goes on and long may cumberland live aviance is the best

jimbols6

13th Feb 2004, 03:20

so what happens next can easyjet terminate the contract??
why did they move from aviance to servisair anyway??
did alot of aviance staff move to servisair and did they all have to take a pay cut cos the wages a servisair r ****!!???:suspect:

03 headset man

13th Feb 2004, 04:16

a few staff took pay cuts and they had to transfer over as easyjet was around 75 percect of aviances work. but since november aviance has took 4 of its ex staff back and one servisairs guy as well and also 3 pax service staff have returned to aviance as they have the euromanx contract and the vlm contract as well as getting the monarch contract and also being the first handling agent that has been allowed to load there own baggage so things are looking up

03 headset man

13th Feb 2004, 05:24

03 Headset Man

You are very correct in what you have said, I was just wondering if you are one of the few lucky ones to have been taken back???

A few of the Aviance guys who stayed took pay cuts but that is loyalty for you. Good luck to them all.

In a year or two Aviance will be the dominent force again at Liverpool but they will have done it the correct way not the ****houses way.

Look forward to your next reply my little chippolata sausage!!!!!

p.s beware of coctail sticks!!
p.p.s. they can jab you in the most unfortunate of places!!! :eek:

03 headset man

13th Feb 2004, 06:26

to magic buff you need to get a mobile phone and get with it and stop licking those windows or you will go back to servisair

HANGER 4 OR ELSE

13th Feb 2004, 09:30

WHAT THE BUFF HAS NO PHONE SHAME ON YOU BUFFY BOY!!!
ANYWAY 03 HEADSET MAN IF YOU DRIVE HOME, DON'T FORGET YOUR CAR.
HOPEFULLY EVERYONE INVOLVED AT LPL WILL PROSPER AND DO WELL FOR THEMSELVES, I AM SURE THEY WILL.
AS WE ALL DESERVE IT

03 headset man

13th Feb 2004, 18:49

u are right magic buff aviance will be back at the top were it belongs and dont be late or u will get buffed

Sausage

13th Feb 2004, 19:00

Cumberland sausage has got to be the best dam sausage that i have ever tasted!!

Lets hope the airport gets more business for everyone sausage lovers!!
:confused:

HANGER 4 OR ELSE

13th Feb 2004, 21:06

Headset man you are quite right, no delays/no on time only earlies. That's what servisair want to try doing.
anyway thats it for now.

my big greasy bratwursts. :\

P.S. I heard from a collegue at LPL that Whiston Hospital was saving a bed for someone.

03 headset man

13th Feb 2004, 21:23

the bed in whiston is for you ay 1600 whan you start work u will be there by 1620 you love the cumberland thats all for now
my little stumpy frazzelt sausauge

cumberland

13th Feb 2004, 23:18

Could you please, please stop all the sausage jokes, Its not my fault they all love my pork sausages:*

Would you like some bacon with lettuce.
:8

Magic Buff

13th Feb 2004, 23:33

It has been reported to us by a collegue at circusair in LPL, that you are seriously considering taking on a meat handling contract. Is this true? and if so how much per turn around? and do you have the maximum take of weight for your Greasy Cumberlands, tiny sqewerd Chipolatas and Big Brown Bratwursts. If you do can you send all info to [email protected]
:\

turetes.27

14th Feb 2004, 08:16

what was it magic buff that made you return to the station of cumberland.
Was it the disturbed minds of the inderviduals that existed that you missed?.
Or was it just the sight of the cumberland on show each night because its that sight that i miss.

turetes.27

14th Feb 2004, 09:17

in reply to simdick. was shocked when i seen him in his local butchers ASKING for cumberland sausage, when mr butcher replied what length would you like it sir, oh!! 8+ plus mr butcher. Mr butcher continuied to prepare his best cumberland sausage behind the counter, when simdick dropped his pants with all the excitement of mr butcher preparing his length of cumberland sausage. oh yes oh yes, mr butcher fit it all in there, get it in there, please no waste. Mr butcher replied hanger 4 now!! cumberland sausage jockey you. the end?

covec

15th Feb 2004, 01:49

FEBA

I thank you for your kind offer of help - but things have moved on since my last PPRuNe post.

Mrs Windsor is offering an extremely rewarding pay / pension packet to us older aircrew - they may have got a bite if not put me in the landing net.....a case of money before idealism, I guess.

More sand in the compo rations!

..all the best, mate.

Covec

09.turetes

15th Feb 2004, 05:03

please be aware of the circusair D/O outside morrisons butchers, its not a manikan dressed as a cumberland sausage, but a real life D/O. PLEASE DON'T STROKE THIS SAUSAGE IF YOU ARE AT THIS SUPERMARKET, its what he wants you to do.

narcisuslpl

15th Feb 2004, 06:51

Though simdicks sausage is a well known subject around here have any of you had contact with those lovely "Fingers" of his...

Faithfully (Never)

The wantingly g*y dispatcher.... or kitten as i'm known to some... :O

09.turetes

15th Feb 2004, 08:03

might just be me but i think we should have a public hanging in hanger 4??

09.turetes

15th Feb 2004, 10:10

is it true that groundstar are in talks of taking over aviance at liverpool???

or dewhurst the master cumberland butchers?

03 headset man

15th Feb 2004, 16:29

not heard the rumor about groundstarbut heard someone wanted to buy aviance at liverpool now its back on its feet its not going to happen you are all greasy cumberlands the lot of you

HANGER 4 OR ELSE

15th Feb 2004, 17:44

i WAS IN MORRISONS THE OTHER DAY AND WITNESSED A TERRIBLE SCENE. ON THE FLOOR LAY THE INERERT FORM OF A BESPECTACLED WIERDO WITH HIS PANTS DOWN, A DISTRAUGHT BUTCHER WITH HIS HEAD IN HIS HANDS BEING COMFORTED BY RELATIVES AND MASSES OF GREASY SMELLY CUMBERLAND LYING EVERYWERE. APPARENTLY AFTER THE WEIRDO HAD ASKED FOR CUMBERLAND SAUSAGES AND DROPPED HIS PANTS, A RATHER SHORT HAIRED MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC HAD STEPPED FORWARDS SHOUTING 'HANG THE B'STARTD' AND PROCEEDED TO CARRY OUT MERCYLESS ACTS OF WANTON SADISTIC VIOLENCE UPON THE WEIRDO, WHOM BY ALL ACCOUNTS ENJOYED IT.

I ASKED THE BUTCHER IF HE KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT GROUND STAR TAKING OVER AVIANCE AT LIVERPOOL, BUT HE JUST ASKED ME IF I WANTED ANY SLIPPERY PINK BOCKWURST, I DID NOT AS I LIKE LAMB CHOPS MYSELF.

:mad:

09.turetes

17th Feb 2004, 05:12

Was very unhappy today, to find no lifeless corpse hanging in hanger 4, as i had prepared a baggage truck full of chocks to throw at this corpse. Now i'm on a disciplinary for breach of health and safety, as no A/C on the apron had chocks, and the dispatchers had to imprevise by using there pens. theirs no justice in this world of cumberland!!

Sausage

17th Feb 2004, 06:52

We are having a public hanging at around 0300L if anybody is interested in getting hung please be in hanger 4 at about 0245L as we need time to prepare you for the public, thanks!!

BEST L/CONTROLLER

17th Feb 2004, 20:09

You lot sound absolutley ****ED!!!!!!!

MENTAL!!!!!

CHEERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

03 headset man

18th Feb 2004, 02:26

you are indeed right we are all mad but working in aviation as we do makes you mad but we all love it and some even love cumberland more than others magic buff loves it

Sausage

18th Feb 2004, 04:23

You are right about Magic Buff Loving the Magic cumberland I also believe he loves pork sword as apposed to pork sausage!
To be honest Sausages are his speciality even though he says he enjoys lamb chops with paprika and a hint of garlic!!

cwllpl

18th Feb 2004, 05:06

magic buff.

i've heard that you like cumberland sausage, and you yourself have been seen stroking the cumberland outside morrisons, you are a very naughty boy.

ive also heard that you like hot mustard on you sausage.

Sausage

how did the public hanging go, i was unable to make it to watch as i was busy cooking my pork chop.

09.turetes

18th Feb 2004, 05:50

We all know magic buff has given up smoking, well done him.
but what is not good for him and his work mates around him, is he smokes the bone, and if he is not smoking the bone he is smoking big juicy cumberland sausages. So all this talk about lamb chops and crap like that is totally unfounded, how dare he, the big greasy combined harvester sitting on a bale of hay smoking cumberland sausage and stroking simdicks purple end say these things. what’s he achieving about lamb chops, garlic etc, what you want to be MAGIC BUFF a middle class dispatcher,
I don't bloody thinks so, go back to the mountain you crawled out off, go on sod off!!

and if your late for shift I will insert a frozen Cumberland sausage
(CUMBERLAND SAUSAGE SPONSORED BY YOUR FAMILY BUTCHER DEWHURST THE MASTER BUTCHER copy right 2004) right up your ar$e.

Magic Buff

18th Feb 2004, 07:31

09 turetes
I heard you had a bad do in Morrisons the other day, what with the weirdo and the cumberland, this was followed by no one turning up for your public hanging in hanger 4.

and I have to say that I would have the greatest sympathy for you if you were not completly the strangest geek I have ever known,

Have you tried self electrocution yet or are you saving it for a special occasion.

anyway as for smoking bone, I have been told from a reliable source, that Dewhursts the butchers have set up their own Private bone smiokers Club, and that they asked you to join.

they apparently said that because you were a formal member, you could also have frozen cumberland anally inserted, but that this was an optional extra.

However no bone, no cumberland.

p.s. I prefer lamb chops myself

09.turetes

19th Feb 2004, 06:32

Class of 2004 held its 1st year reunion on Febuary 17th, 2004
at the Holiday Inn in Cumberland valley

On Febuary 17th, 2004, 110 classmates and spouses met at the Holiday Inn in Cumberland for the Cumberland Valley Class of '03 1st year reunion. The festivities included Cumberland stroking by Nancy Cumberland Hornberger (who somehow manages to keep up with almost
all class members), Cumberland dinner, and dancing to DJ who provided 50's Cumberland music naturally. The evening's
activities were lead very capably by Rick cumberland, Class President. Class member, Rev. Felty cumberland, offered the invocation. The evening began with a social hour which was primarily an opportunity for schmoozing and catching up by class members from every
corner of Cumberland valley, as well as inside Mrs Cumberland herself.

Not surprisingly, the evening ended earlier when Rev.Felty Cumberland, made a run for it , for under age sex with a half naked Cumberland sausage, with no one suggesting we all stay up and hang the ba$tard in hanger 4, as we have in the past. Nevertheless, we are all ardent advocates of class reunions and highly recommend them. Reunions are an excellent testimony to the realization that Cumberland sausage can only get better when it has aged.

All in all, a good time was had by all, and our hope is that we are all around to do it again in another
few days

Cumberland Sausage

The indredients are:
6 oz Pork back fat, minced 1 lb Shoulder of pork, minced 1 oz Stale breadcrumbs 1/2 slice Smoked bacon, minced Salt Pepper Nutmeg Mace
The recipe yield is:
4 Servings
Info:
The pork should be boned and skinned. Mix the shoulder and the fat. Add 8 tablespoons hot water to the crumbs. Mix everything together (use your hands), seasoning well with pepper, and adding a generous pinch of both the spices. Fry a spoonful of the sausage to test the seasoning. Fill the sausage casings as usual. Prick in a few places and allow to sit overnight before cooking. ...These are very good baked in a buttered baking dish at 350F until browned. Turn after 20 minutes, and raise the heat if the sausages are cooking too slowly.

Note:
Pork; British

pls bring your sausages to the information desk
where magic buff, will be willing to taste then.
oh and pls don't turn your back on him, as there will meaty bits where you thought meaty bits should never go!!

cwllpl

19th Feb 2004, 16:04

do you know what, i hate having time off work away from all those lovely dispatchers bending over, picking chocks up (phew!! i'm getting hot already), placeing them under the nose wheel, god it makes me juicy. i never take my uniform off just incase i get called in for overtime, and spend time with my unsuspecting work chums showing me there builders bum when bending down, its just aswel i have a long coat to hide that cumberland sausage that grows in my pants, or my cover would be blown.

anyway bye for now
you lovely lovely cumberland dispatchers
i'll be watching you soon
:O

09.turetes

20th Feb 2004, 06:27

Magic Buff’s Meats are among the most decorated meats in Cumberland shire. Awards they have won cover the walls of the slimly sausage shop
But the essence of this North Cumberland shire treasure is hidden in a small back room where, two nights a week, Magic Buff holes up after everyone else has gone home and the store windows are dark.
In this room he calls his "cave" is a vast array of Cumberland sausages that carefully measures and weighs to flavour his family's many prized sausages. The small-town business has accrued more than 180 local, state, national and international honours since 1975, for everything from Cumberland sausages, sausage dancing and the summer sausage, the bikini Cumberland.
Magic Buff, 33, is the keeper of the meat. He is the meat chemist.
It takes less than a minute for Magic Buff to whack one off, of a 40-pound batch of Italian sausage.

Magic Buff knows this formula down to the hundredth-ounce without looking it up. Some 200 jerk off’s neatly tucked into a loose-leaf binder.
"I sit there, and I can hardly wait to whack one off again," said Magic Buff, the third generation of sausage makers and jerkers in his family. "Product development and making Meat are the best part of my job."

One of his most inspired creations may be the Cumberland inserter summer sausage - an all-beef sausage with plenty of grrrrrrrrrr!! This sausage earned Magic Buff the Governor's Trophy at a 1991 state competition.

Magic Buffs meat counter bulges with fresh sausages - trying to incise the Swedish,
To man handle his well used meaty bits, and jerkies and There's even something for the dogs: smoked Cumberland bit’s and smoked bone.
.
IF YOU WANT SOME
Magic Buffs Meats is on Highway 63, at the north end of Cumberland. Several gift boxes are available for his meaty sausages and other meaty products which we won’t get into.