Logging Flight Time

[tartan 42]

Can someone provide a bit of guidance (I could not find specific answers to my questions in LASORS):

1. If conducting a 28 day currency check-ride (out of club currency for renting) with an instructor, how is flight time logged (e.g. PIC, P/UT etc)?

2. If conducting a new type check-ride (say you trained on a c152 and want to rent the clubs c172), how is flight time logged (e.g. PIC, P/UT etc)?

Thanks
T-42

[Say again s l o w l y]

It depends on what the instructor wants to do, there is no requirement for the time to be logged as P/UT since there isn't any training going on.

As an instructor I usually put this down as P1 and the person being checked out as P/UT, it cannot be P1/S. This is due to the fact that I am actually in overall command,(after talking to a chap from the CAA and having it explained to me that they would always consider an FI to be in command, even if they were sitiing in the back on a jolly, in the case of an accident/incident.)

If the checkout in a new machine DID include new technology, i.e VP prop, Rectractable gear, Turbocharger or pressurisation then the flight must be as P/UT, but if it is just a check out in another SEP type, then it can be P1 if you negotiate and the FI is feeling generous! For the first few flights in any new type, most people are behind the ball and so there is usually no argument about putting it down as P/UT as training will often be needed, rather than the FI sitting there twiddling their thumbs.

I don't know why people worry about what to put stuff down as. It's not as if it matters to the average PPL what it goes down in the book as.

[FlyingForFun]

No, the answer to this one isn't in LASORS - nor is it written down anywhere at all.

There are three different schools of thought for your first question:

1) Log the time as P1. The instructor does not log the time at all. This means that the instructor has no legal authority to affect the flight in any way - it must be clearly agreed between the two of you before the flight.

If you don't agree on this, then you can argue for one of the following two options:

2) Log the time as P1US. This sounds reasonable - you are qualified to and capable of flying the aircraft, but there is an instructor supervising you. LASORS only lists a very limited number of cases where P1US can be used, though, and this is not one of them.

3) Log the time as PUT. Technically, you are not being trained, but logging as PUT leaves no doubt at all that the instructor is in charge, and can override your decisions if he feels it's necessary.

Personally, I'd go for option 3. Although option 2 logically makes more sense, if you log time as P1US and either the CAA or your insurance company feel that this is not correct and it should have been PUT, then you could find yourself in trouble. On the other hand, if you log time as PUT but someone things it should have been P1US, then that's not going to cause you any problems. So option 3 is the safest one, even though option 2 is the most logical. But you will get 11 different opinions from 10 different people on this point.

On the second question, the answer is exactly the same as for the first question. You are legally allowed to fly the C172 without any further training - you are therefore able to log P1 as long as your instructor agrees, and if he doesn't agree to this then you have the same dilema re PUT or P1US. There is one exception to this, though, and that is if you require differences training for the aircraft (i.e. if it has retractable gear, variable pitch prop, tailwheel, turbo/super charger or pressurized cabin and you have not flown anything with this difference before). In this case, you are PUT and your instructor is P1.

The other considerations are the 90-day rule, and insurance company requirements. Either of these could prevent you from logging P1 or P1US, and force you to log PUT in either case.

FFF
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[Circuit Basher]

[Runs away, screaming manically at the thought of another 20 page thread that runs for 6 months on the topic of logging time!! ;)]

An old chestnut, but ISTR that the consensus of this forum (in previous similar threads) for both the cases mentioned is that P U/T should be logged by you. These situations seem pretty clear cut to me.

[2Donkeys]

There is no P1US.


There is

PICUS (pilot in command under supervision) under JAR

and

P1/S (P1 under supervision) under CAA


Neither is appropriate for either of the flights mentioned, as FFF says

LASORS only lists a very limited number of cases where P1US can be used, though, and this is not one of them.

Option 3 is a good choice.

2D

[BEagle]

Whichever way you log it, it will count towards your total time. But it cannot count towards your total P1C time because you would NOT be the Commander - the FI would be.

We've gone autonomous on this at my RF and have standardised as follows:

Training Flight for SEP Class Rating Re-validation. As most will know, one option for the re-validation of SEP Class Ratings is ‘By Experience’. This includes a 1 hour ‘Training Flight’ with an Instructor, although this may be replaced by any Skill Test, Proficiency Check, flight with a military QFI in the course of military duties or IMC flight test. There has been much discussion as to who may log what for this flight; so to standardise, we’ll be adopting the following policy:

a. SEP Re-validation LPC, renewal LST or IMC Rating flight test: FE is P1C, pilot is P1S. If unsuccessful, pilot is Pu/t.

b. Annual Club check or 1 hr SEP training flight: FI is P1C, pilot under supervision is P1S as he/she's merely carrying out a series of mutually agreed events within the privileges of his/her licence with the benefit of friendly advice from the FI. The pilot is not 'under training' for anything specific, neither is he/she under test. FI signs pilot's logbook to confirm that this was a satisfactory flight for the purpose of SEP revalidation by experience. Exceptionally, if the FI is not happy with way the flight went (which I hope will rarely be the case!), he/she should not sign the logbook as that's the CAA Chief Flight Examiner's current guidance. Recommended training should be discussed and proposed (and copied to the CFI); the pilot will not be allowed to fly as Commander on a Club aircraft until such 'recommended training' has been satisfactorily completed. The flights for recommended training will be flown with the FI as P1C and the pilot under training as Pu/t.

In a nutshell, the FE or FI is always Commander, the other pilot is either acting under supervision (PIS) or under training (Pu/t). The idea of the SEP training flight is to help you stay safe, not to put you under duress. Treat it as a chance to brush up your skills and enjoy it!"


Perhaps that's too obvious and logical for the JAA? But we haven't had anyone performing unsatisfactorily during their 1 hour training flight either!