Renting in the US

[Mak]

I've looked in the archives but found no answer to this.

I'm going to be in the US on business and will have one or two free w/e and would like to do some flying, probably with an instructor just to find out what it's like. I'll contact the FAA myself but would also like the benefit of your experiences about what's involved and how long it take to arrange. (I'll be based in new york).
Thanks.

Mak

[FlyingForFun]

If you're just flying with an instructor, nothing special is required - turn up at a local flying school and go flying.

If you're training for a license or a rating, though (which I assume you're not from your post) then you will need a Visa. I won't go into details, because I don't think it applies to you - but I mention it because although you now know the rules, there is no guarantee that the person working the immigration desk knows the rules, and when you arrive in the country, if he finds out that you'll be flying, but doesn't understand the difference between formal training and what you're proposing to do, then you will be coming home on the next plane.

If you're planning on flying solo, then you will need an FAA license. You need to contact the FAA and get an application form, fill it in, and send it back to them. You then need to download the appropriate form from the CAA website, and send that in to the CAA along with a cheque. The CAA, on receiving your money, will confirm to the FAA that your license is real. When they receive this confirmation, the FAA will write to you to let you know that you can pick your license up from the FSDO (which you will have to nominate in advance - ask your chosen flying school in the US where the nearest one is). Allow a couple of months for this process.

Hope that helps,

FFF
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<<edit: or a medical and student pilot certificate, FFF>>

[david viewing]

Mak - I'd say go the reciprocal licence route if you have time to get the CAA authentication and get checked out solo while you are there rather than just 'flying with an instructor'. If you buy the FAR/AIM (and "VFR radio proceedures in the USA") books before you go and read them on the flight there you will a) be less bored on the flight and b) know enough to get a BFR when you get there.

You don't need a visa for a checkout or BFR and they are often combined in a single flight depending on your experience. Flying in the US is actually much easier than you might think (and much more rewarding) and once you have the recip, it's valid along with your UK licence.

FFF - sorry to bang on about this, but I note you use the phrase 'formal training'. Do you think there is any accepted definition of what constitutes 'training for licence / rating'?

For instance, if you ride right front seat and the instructor drives the plane, you are just a passenger and I don't see how this could be construed as 'training'.

But what if you sit in the left seat? Does that constitute 'training'? Is it relevant whether or not the instructor endorses your log book, or if you claim the time yourself?

David

[Mak]

Thanks both of you. This time there won't be enough time to sort out the FAA license but I'll probably be going there quite often in the coming months so I'll do it later.

Mak

[FlyingForFun]

David,

I'm not aware of any definition of what counts, but it is certainly the case that a BFR or club checkout does not count, i.e. you can do that on a Visa Waiver without a Visa. Someone posted a link to the relevant part of the US Immigration services website long long ago which made that clear, but I'm afraid I don't have a clue where the link is. Bearing this in mind, your example of sitting in the left seat and having the instructor endorse your logbook is not sufficient to require a Visa.

My own interpretation is that you need a Visa if the training you are doing will count towards the required training hours for any Licence or Rating, e.g. PPL, CPL, IR, IMC, type rating, class rating and so on. But, as I've said many times, neither my interpretation nor anything that anyone has written actually make any difference at all - the only thing which counts is the way the immigration officer on duty the day you arrive interprets the rules (and this may depend which side of bed he got out of and whether the milk in his morning cup of coffee had gone sour). If he decides that you're breaking the law, there is no means of appeal - you will be sent home.

FFF
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PS - Agree with Keygrip's edit to my first post, unless you want to take pax flying in which case a student pilot certificate is not enough

[genius747]

You can convert ANY JAR license except an SPL to an FAA PPL.

No test is required.

It takes about 2-3 months to get the paperwork for your temperary airmans certificate ! No joke. You can fly with this Temp airmans certificate, a White piece of paper. A couple of months later you will recieve your credit card size FAA PPL license.

I'd get the ball rolling as early as possible

Best of Luck

[Bluebeard]

I posted on a similar subject a while back for a great flying holiday I took in Florida.

The US Embassy in London was very cagey about whether or not I needed a visa. Since I wasn't planning on training for a new license or rating they told me that technically I didn't need a visa. However (and this is the incredible bit, bearing in mind they are supposed to be the last word on this), the final call is down to the immigration officer who can be having an off day and might give you hassle or refuse you entry altogether.

Getting the visa I "needed" would have cost the best part of £100 and required a half day of standing around at the Embassy. Consequently I decided against the visa - and had no trouble at all. I didn't exactly draw attention to the fact that I was planning on doing some flying, they didn't ask me so I didn't tell.

Re the actual flying bit, getting an FAA license on the basis of your UK PPL is easy, as you need only to fill in the security forms from the FAA and the CAA, pick up your license and then do a BFR. Note that you should officially allow 60 days prior to your trip to get the paperwork through (its posted to you), but in general the process a matter of days for the CAA (this is according to the nice folks in Oklahama what I spoke to).

Have fun!:ok:

[Sensible]

I've never had any problems through US immigration even when I went through last year when I was asked "what is the purpose of your visit?" I answered "to fly bugsmashers" the guy was a PPL himself and asked "what exactly was I planning" I answered "to get a complex endorsement and do some sightseeing" It was pointless lying really because if they turned out my baggage, they would have found the paperwork anyway. The only response was "safe flying, enjoy"

Unless you are going to do a PPL or commercial flight training, there is really no need for a visa just for airplane rental, BFR or tailwheel, seaplane or complex endorsements. I think it is fair and reasonable for the US immigration Service to presume that Mr Bin Liner won't bother sending his pilots to the US for the sole purpose of obtaining a BFR or seaplane rating!

[ModernDinosaur]

I flew in the US last year, and I had no trouble getting the FAA PPL issued on the basis of my UK PPL. Like Bluebeard Iwas told that although I didn't need a visa, one was advisable. Again like Bluebeard, I decided to risk it and I had no trouble at all - but your mileage may vary.

Of course, the rules today are very different from the rules a year ago, and they're still changing. If the reports are true, all visitors to the US will need a Visa by the end of October 2004 - read http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3378057.stm for a bit more detail.

Am I alone in thinking that the imposition of Visas by the US is actually a sign that the terrorists have won? The way I see it, the terrorists have succeeded in stealing something we value so much we almost take it for granted - they've stolen our freedom.

Sadly,

MD.

[FlyingForFun]

If the reports are true, all visitors to the US will need a Visa by the end of October 2004 Not quite true. According to the news article you've linked to, you will need a Visa if you don't have a machine-readable passport. My passport is machine-readable, so I'm still entitled to enter under the Visa Waiver program. The problem is nothing to do with tighter rules, it's to do with the US's understandable desire to use technology effectively, and the UK's inability to stay ahead of the game in issueing this technology to its citizens.

FFF
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[knobbygb]

FWIW, I applied for my reciprocal FAA license this time last year, and the process took exactly 10 days start to finish. Mak, if your trip is more than 2 or 3 weeks away it may be worth giving this route a try now. If you do get to solo, it's sooooo much more satisfying...

[englishal]

Allow a couple of months for this process.
It took me 3 days...I faxed said forms to CAA and the FAA and 3 days later the letter from the FAA arrived through my door ! Couldn't believe it, and well done to the FAA. Remember even if you don't have the letter of authentication in your hand when you leave for the states, you can always pick it up at the nominated FSDO. Give them a call first.
Not quite true. According to the news article you've linked to, you will need a Visa if you don't have a machine-readable passport
Not quite true :D According to the news this morning anyhow. You will need a Biometric passport if issued after this date, if not you will have to have a visa. All UK passports have been machine readable for the past 10 years or so, now the yanks want a finger print to prove who you are.....

Not quite sure how this increases security, what with identity theft and all that....no doubt people who have the inclination will find a way around it....

EA

[Davidt]

Have a look at the Naples Air Training site (theres a link somewhere on Prune) it give all the regs for converting, training and visa requirements in US inc downloadable FAA and imigration forms

[Sensible]

The Naples advice is a "sticky" on the private flying forum (this one)

Here is the link:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65838

[KCDW]

Hi,

Where about's in New York, Manhattan? If so, I feel that the only reasonable place for GA to fly out of is Essex County Airport, known as Caldwell in New Jersey. It's a bit of a hike to get out there (1 hour bus and walk, 30 mins by car). If you want directions for the bus route (you will definitely need these) - feel free to PM me.

Teterboro is nearer but more expensive, and you spend too much time waiting for clearance.

At Caldwell, there are 2 FBOs, Caldwell Flight Academy and MacDan. I have only experience of CFA. They are fine, if a bit inpersonal. Rates are roughly $77 per hour for a Warrior/C172, $100 dual. You will be asked to pay for Fuel Checker thing, so bring your own.

If you've only got a couple of weekends, strongly suggest going for a jaunt down the Hudson VFR Corridor, as a must do flight.

Cheers

KCDW

[Airist]

I'm off to Florida in 10 days and still waiting for the Letter of Approval from the FAA Less than 10/10 to the boys'n'gals in Oklahoma on this one. Though it's not quite panic stations yet, and I have to say that the FTO I'm renting from has been very helpful in offering to chase them up.

Have been reading these comments with interest. Can I check something please? FFF, your reference to a PPL not being allowed to fly with pax did refer only to student pilots, didn't it? I have a PPL, but will also be carrying a passenger/second opinion/scapegoat. (Very flying-savvy, but not licenced). It would scupper everything if that caused problems.

I would appreciate any hints and tips. I've never flown outside Europe before. The place which is renting me the aircraft has warned me that I'll find the R/T very different.

Anything else? (Apart from the alligators).

[FlyingForFun]

Airist,

Yes - sorry if I didn't make that very clear. Keygrip makes the valid point that you can fly on an FAA student certificate. I added to that point that you can only do this if you're flying solo. If you're carrying pax, then a student certificate is not enough, and you will need to apply for the FAA license based on your foreign license - which is exactly what you've done, so you'll be fine.

Your school should give you a thorough checkout which will cover everything you need to know. Make sure you visit at least one controlled airfield and one uncontrolled airfield with them, get to see the 45-degree join at the uncontrolled field. Flying in Florida is very easy - the grid system which the Americans use when they build streets means that maintaining your heading is easy, and if you get lost you're never too far from a coast ;)

Have fun!

FFF
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[Airist]

Thanks, FFF. Useful stuff, which I hadn't thought of before. Will be following it up. Pushing my luck here (and yes, flamers, I do realise there have been 8000000googol threads on this already... had I only been able to find them) but... well, once more, all hints and tips welcome. - Airy

[chrisbl]

Airist,

The R/T is different but if you remember if you are not sure what they said ask for them to say again. It does no harm to say you are a student pilot too as they will then s-l-o-w d-o-w-n. Its a bit cheeky, but hey you want to have fun and not have to worry too much.

[Airist]

Gottit. Student pilot, and a limey, and female, and fairly dumb... They're just bound to go easy on me. ;) :p Sadly, I'm not blonde... But ATC don't know that.

[chrisbl]

Have a read of this too.

http://www.cyberair.com/tower/faa/app/p8740-47/p8740-47.html

[KCDW]

chrisbl, Airist,

How curious. This is clearly an FAA document, yet in 2 years over there, I never heard anyone say "Over". I know it's positively NOT required in the UK.

When I first went out there, I bought a superb book from ASA called "Say Again Please, Guide to Radio Communications".

http://www.avshop.com/catalog/product.html?productid=90&categoryid=21

Very enjoyable, it takes you through a number of "flights" across different US airspace, with chart extracts. After genning up on it, I can honestly say, the lingo you are taught is exactly how it is used in real life over there.

Suggest the FAA update their documentation...

[style with a smile]

This is a bit random but I shall be going on Holiday to the Domincan Republic in 3 weeks time, and I was wondering if anyone knew how to hire a single engine prop of some sort at Puerto Plata airport (nearest one to where I'll be) for a bit of a fly around... Would appreciate an email if you [email protected]. thx