Man killed at Liverpool airport by car thieves

[newswatcher]

BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/3371399.stm)

[Caslance]

I'm surprised that none of our Liverpool (or Toronto) based colleagues have any comment on this story.

The question that occurs to me is this: where was the security at JLI in this time of heightened international tension and severe terrorist threat???

[dfearns]

Its a great shame what happened!

LJLA has 1 security officer outside the terminal 24/7 with 2 others patrolling. Where the hell the security guard was while it was all happening I will never know. He is said to be a 'key witness' to the events tho, and the CCTV from outside the terminal has been handed over to the police.

This happens at every UK airport, people get out of the car to do the cases and leave the car running, so the lesson from this is to not leave your car running.

Hopefully these events wont reflect at all on peoples opinions of Liverpool or the airport.

[dwlpl]

I'm surprised that none of our Liverpool (or Toronto) based colleagues have any comment on this story. What comment would you like?

[Caslance]

Any comment you like, mate.

For God's sake please don't think I'm trying to score points - someone has lost their life and it's far too grim a situation for that sort of silliness.

But I have to wonder how the hell this could happen when security at ALL UK airports is supposed to be at a high level. After all, the "getaway" car could as easily been full of Al-Qaeda terrorists as local scallies.

No airport needs this sort of thing.....

[AOG-YYZ]

For God's sake don't think I am trying to score points

So, just what are you doing?

I can't comment because I have only heard about this tragic incident on this forum. But what it has to do with Toronto I'm at a loss to know. I can tell you that I was the victim of a very similar incident two years ago at Fort Myers airport in Florida. My 'Alamo' Rent-A-Car was stolen while I was unloading my baggage at the terminal kerbside. It was quite scary. In fact I am still feeling the repercussions because the CDW was on my Diners Club card and it is still not completely sorted out.

By the way Caslance, and seeing as you lived here for awhile
;) What is YYZ commonly known as. Here's a tip; It is named for the local community.

[dwlpl]

Anti-terrorist security in the UK will be down to the police and other Government security services, not the usual airport security.

The murder, as the police have said it is, has resulted in an arrest.

[Caslance]

I'm sorry, dwlpl, I obviously should have worded my posting more clearly. I meant "security" in the broadest sense, including the Police.

I've just heard about the arrest on the radio.

I hope they lock the :mad::mad::mad::mad: up and throw the key away and do the same to his accomplice(s) when the Police catch up with them.

By the way Caslance, and seeing as you lived here for awhile I've never lived in Toronto,AOG-YYZ. Are you confusing me with Frankfurt_Cowboy by any chance? :confused:

I mentioned Toronto in my original posting because, knowing your keen interest in LJLA (dunno where I got JLI from) and all things LJLA, I was surprised that you had nothing to say in this instance.

BTW, I prefer to leave the point-scoring to those with axes to grind.

[newswatcher]

When I first posted, I had not appreciated that the incident had occurred outside the front of the terminal, in the "drop-off" zone. Since both passengers were going on holiday, I am :confused: as to why they didn't park first, and then go to the terminal. Since both people have to be present at check-in, little time is going to be gained, other than a "place in the queue". As dfearns says, the sad fact is that people have got to be more careful.

Please note that my original BBC link has been updated.

[dwlpl]

.... the reason, I would think, that the 'drop off zone' is used is because there is less distance (approx 30 yards) to push/carry baggage to the check-in at LPL.

[Standard Noise]

According to press reports, this has happened on at least two occasions in the last 4 months at the drop off bays at Liverpool, once in October and again in December. Thankfully on those occasions, there were no fatalities, but they both involved prestige/exspensive cars (a BMW and a VW Touareg).

Once can be explained as a freak occurrence, twice is embarrassing, but three times smacks of incompetence on the part of Merseyside Police and the airport management. The airport are only interested in money and the police in catching speeding drivers.

Meanwhile, in Humberside, a police officer gives a 14yo paperboy the third degree over working at 0645 on a school morning.. Perhaps Merseyside were helping their east coast colleagues at the time and were too busy to catch their own car thieving, murdering scum!!!:mad: :mad:

[MerchantVenturer]

My heartfelt sympathy goes out to the deceased's widow and family.

This incident was a criminal act.

To start trying to apportion blame to airport security, the police, airport management is missing the point.

This incident probably lasted less than a minute. Unless you have police and/or security officers patrolling the front of the terminal at all times when it is open, it is completely unrealistic to say they could have prevented it. And if you did they would have had to have been very close to the car in question. Remember these thieves thought it was an easy touch and I am sure did not expect resistance from the owner. Had it gone to the thieves' plan it would have been over in less than ten seconds with the stolen car and thief away.

Let us accept that we have violent criminals in this country and let us try to get society as a whole to accept that and not pussyfoot around with them when they are caught. This is preferable to playing armchair detective. It is a bit like non pilots saying what they would do or would have done in the event of an airborne emergency.

[Standard Noise]

MV- I don't think I'm missing the point, if the police are not there to prevent/tackle/solve crime, then what use are they? I'm not so much of an armchair detective as a p***ed-off taxpayer. As similar incidents had happened before, in the recent past, would it not have been prudent for the police to step up their presence in front of the terminal to deter the car thieves, or is that too much for the humble taxpayer to expect?! Obviously it is, but the old excuses are trotted out time and again (not enough manpower, unpredictable nature of the crime etc etc). The day we wrest control of this country back from the lily livered hand wringing liberals, so much the better.

Car thieves/violent criminals have nothing to lose, unlike the poor families of their victims.

[Wycombe]

No punishment could be too severe for these little sh1ts

Yes, I am angry :mad: :mad:

[ecj]

A man has been arrested in connection with this incident.

[AOG-YYZ]

By the way, I prefer to leave the point-scoring to those with a axes to grind

So I noticed in your previous post and your original submission.
For God's sake, don't think i'm trying to score points and I'm surprised none of our Liverpool or (Toronto) based etc

Oh well, as long as you believe it.

[MAN777]

Apparently LIverpool airport has a low level of crime even though it is situated next to Speke estate, which is considered to be one of the most deprived areas in the north. Airports worldwide will always be an attractive location for opportunity thieves, most people are to tied up in departure emotions and worry to think about protecting their property. I would suggest that the only reason that there has been such a prompt arrest in this case is because of security cctvs. It is very sad that a person has lost his life in what amounts to a TWOC (taking without owners concent) a crime which is treated very lightly at court. This persons life will not stop these low life scumbags.

Very sad !

[newswatcher]

dwlplthe reason, I would think, that the 'drop off zone' is used is because there is less distance (approx 30 yards) to push/carry baggage to the check-in at LPL I am not aware of the lay-out at Liverpool, but in most airports, the drop-off for car-park coaches is no further from the check-in. Unless you have little children in push chairs, I can't see any benefit in using the drop-off zone, when all passengers in the car are travelling. Do I assume, from your response, that no coaches are provided?

A potentially similar situation exists in petrol stations. I have lost count of the number of incidents where a customer has had his car stolen, because he left the keys in the ignition when he went to pay! := :=

The BBC now reports(Thu evening) that 4 people are helping them with their enquiries.

[Daysleeper]

Liverpool airport a low level of crime, are you nuts?

This is the same airport where the security landcruiser was carjacked last year. Where there are regularly smashed up wrecks left in the car parks. (probably stolen in town). And 3 carjackings in the last month of civilian vehicals from outside the terminal . In the middle of a security alert.
So maybe compared to the local area it has a low level of crime but thats still a high level compared to the rest of the UK.

[Mouser]

Smashed up wrecks in the car parks, I dont think so , oh yes! thieves sitting in the queue for their ticket for the long or short stay to dump their wreck.

[danfulton]

Well lets look at some stats for Liverpool (Merseyside) the high crime area ...

Crimes per 1000 population

North Yorkshire 74.98
Greater Manchester 140.93
Merseyside 99.67
South Yorkshire 102.00
West Midlands 119.59
West Yorkshire 129.76
Metropolitan Police 123.54

Hmmmm, well yes that explains the high crime comments.

[WHBM]

It is so disappointing to see the "hey, ho, these things happen" attitude of the LPL management quoted above, rather than reading of any determination to crack down on what appears to be a continuing problem. Because this dreadful incident will undoubtedly lead to passengers not booking through Liverpool now it has reinforced a stereotype about the city, especially when travellers read about the past attacks as well, and the airport (and Easyjet) will suffer.

[chiglet]

mouser,
When I worked at Brum, one of our ATCAs had a phone call from the Met [police] to say that her car was causing an obstruction "somewhere in London":rolleyes: . She said that her car was in the Staff car park.It wasn't. The griff was, nick a car from "London", drive to "An Airport", park, and "nick 'n'drive" back :ok:
We also had an ATCO, similar phone call from Wolverhampton...Repy, "No, it can't be mine, there's no battery and two tyres are flat!"
It was his car:hmm:
If "they" want it, "they" will nick it. Fact of life
watp,iktch

[Wooster2]

Daysleeper. Your comments make the car park at LJLA sound like the main road into Baghdad! 11 cars were stolen from the airport carparks last year. Not good I know, but considering 13 cars were stolen from a car park at Gatwick during two weeks in August last year it's a far cry from the crimewave you portray. Ahh, of course, let me guess, we scousers came down and nicked them.....

As for the comments elsewhere about the attitude of Management I think in some respects you have to ask 'what can you do?'. The widow of the victim had been talking to an airport security man seconds before the incident took place. Security can only do so much in the face of a concerted effort to commit a crime..:confused:

[bagpuss lives]

Some people never ever cease to amaze me :mad:

They can turn a thread related to a very serious and incredibly sad but geographically unimportant event into yet another tiresome excuse to have a shameless "pop" at Merseyside and its supposedly soaring crime rate and thieving scum populace.

You can go to any big city on this wonderful planet of ours and you'll find similar crimes committed by similar "people" (in the loosest sense of the word for they lack the common respect for life that defines us as beings) for the same old reasons - moral, social and regional depravation, poor education and opportunity, and poverty.

Car crime happens everywhere and to think otherwise is ignorant and above all else, stupid. Instead of looking for solutions to the problem it's all too easy to relax back into our old stereotypes - "ahhh it's Liverpool, what do you expect? They had x number of cars burnt out in the car park last year blah blah blah"

Liverpool and it's populace are no different in make-up from anyone else in this country or indeed any other Global conurbations that have had their fair share of economic kicks down the years.

I wonder what would happen if, for example, someone here frequently came out with rubbish like "ohh thieving black / Asian / Arabic / Jewish / German / Irish / insert name of ethnic or racial minority here* / scum always coming here and stealing our precious upper-middle class possessions etc etc etc etc etc" ?

For me regional-racism is becoming increasingly tiresome and worrying and, from now on, I'm going to treat people who take part in it like I would treat any other racist scumbags.

Report them to the moderators and have their little electro-ignorant arses well and truly kicked :mad: :mad:

Now, back to the point - as I said, this really sad incident at Liverpool highlights the shortcomings in security at the Airport - especially in the drop off area - and specifically that criminally minded types with no respect for life will stop at nothing at all to get what they want.

Very sad :(

[dwlpl]

niteflight01

You cannot say things like that, its not the 'done thing' to do anything but degrade the city its people or the airport in its attempt to grow when discussed on this forum. Others who post here will not have it. You must take the same Harry Enfield stereotypical view.

Everytime Liverpool is used, in what ever context, the same old cliches are spouted by the same people.

You only have to go back over this thread, the thread 'Liverpool Airport' and the thread 'VLM Lpl-Lcy' for examples of what I mean.

You can also see that the crime myth that is used to justify comments by some, is disproved by the crime statistics (see further up on this thread) published by the UK Government through the Home Office for the Liverpool area. It fares BETTER than nearly all of the UK's metropolitan areas.

[Daysleeper]

Wouster, mouser

I mearly report what I see,. I was on a contract at LPL when the security landcruiser was stolen. we used to park in the staff car park next to a smashed up wreck. Walk through the long stay past another smashed up wreck.
One example , A ford mondeo all tyres flat, windows smashed, bonnnet open and bodywork badly damaged. Talked to the car park attendant. Not interested as long as they pay the fee when they pick it up . But if its here more than a month we might call the police. Not that they are interested.
Happens all the time.

[bagpuss lives]

Those were precisely the points I was making and I don't see quite where you think I too was having a shameless, stereotypical dig at Liverpool?

I was attacking those people here who, at the slightest mention of Merseyside or anything connected to it - even when it involves a very sad incident like this, drag out the same old comfortable stereotypes because they don't have the intelligence or guts to see beyond them. It's just plain ignorance and, in my eyes, a form of racism.

Also, this thread is most certainly not the place to bring these stereotypes - or indeed argue about them like I seem to be doing, out into the open.

I think Jet Blast is probably a more appropriate forum.

[dwlpl]

niteflite01

That was my attempt at sarcasm to point out that a good number of others who have posted here take that stereotypical view and its unusual for people, like yourself, to see through that 'racism' as you put it and point out that there are criminals all over the world. Daysleeper quite clearly does not see that fact, it must be wonderful to live somewhere were there is no crime!

[bagpuss lives]

Doh...sorry it's been a loooooooooong night :D

Yes, it surprises me too that people live in such crime free and Utopian societies. And any crime that is committed why, it's just so easy to blame the scousers isn't it? Too easy to ignore the ills of 21st century life and some of the social-monsters we've all helped to create and blame it on the stereotypes.

Admittedly events like this don't help the public image of Merseyside - how could they - and it's people - nor does the fact that the airport is located in a dodgy area. But this is a man's life that has been lost and I hoped that people may be able to leave those stereotypes behind just for once.

People need to remember that the country and the world are full of "dodgy areas" - Liverpool is certainly no worse or rougher than some areas of Manchester, Glasgow, Birmingham and London believe me.

I just don't see why people from Liverpool should put up with this sort of nonsense spilling into everything they do, any longer. A joke's a joke but this just isn't "funny" anymore.

Anyway...from BBC News -

Three charged with airport murder

Three men have been charged with murder following the death of a holidaymaker at Liverpool John Lennon Airport.
Father-of-three Michael Howard, 57, was due to go to Spain with his wife when he died under the wheels of his own car as he tried to stop it being stolen last Tuesday.

Craig Abbott, 21, from Carley Walk; Neil Dolan, 20, from Yeardon Walk and a 17-year-old youth were also charged with conspiracy to steal.

The three, all from the Speke area of the city, are due to appear at Liverpool magistrates court on Monday.

[dwlpl]

niteflite01

Most crime is committed by opportunists allbeit by people preying on others vulnerability as this incident proved.

The CCTV pictures showed that this crime took approx 25 seconds from when the mans car parked to when the car ran down the man.

[bagpuss lives]

Indeed it is dwlpl but one has to look to the deep-seated reasons behind the motivation for such opportunism and crime in general.

People aren't born opportunist thieves.

Or murderers for that matter.

[Rockwell]

DWPL
quote

You can also see that the crime myth that is used to justify comments by some, is disproved by the
crime statistics (see further up on this thread) published by the UK Government through the Home
Office for the Liverpool area. It fares BETTER than nearly all of the UK's metropolitan areas.
unquote

Those numbers are just THE RECORDED statistics. Many, many events are not reported to the
police because the person doing the reporting knows full well that it will be pointless and in many
cases the police just don't want to know, because if they did record it then their crime figures
would go up and people would then be questioning the low rate of crime detection and lack of
results. I have had my vehicles broken into twice at Liverpool Airport. That figure does not feature
in any statistics because I did not report it. As there was no uniformed police officer based at the
airport it would be necessary to drive to a not so local police station to make the report.

[danfulton]

Rockwell,

So are people in the Merseyside area less likely to report crime, or is the fact that people do not report all crime a nationwide - if not worldwide phenomenon ?

Just curious.

[dwlpl]

Rockwell,

As danfulton says, its strange how people in the Liverpool area do/doesn't do things that nobody on earth do.

BTW, there are based police officers at the airport.

[newswatcher]

dwpl this (http://www.merseyside.org.uk/living/campaigns/crime.html) in support of your view, looking for more recent figures.

Rockwell If you don't report your thefts, then how do you make a claim against your insurance? Also, if less crimes are reported, then less funds will be made available to the local authority for policing! Catch 22!

[Rockwell]

danfulton & dwlpl

How you wish to interpret statistics is up to you. I am merely proving that RECORDED statistics are
just that, i.e. incidents which have been REPORTED and RECORDED. The real crime figure will
obviously be higher in all areas. dwlpl has a habit of collecting numbers without understanding how
they have been obtained and their limited significance. How the true figure fits into the nationwide
league table of true figures will never be known, but to rely on the quoted statistics to disprove a
'myth' is erroneous. Victims of crime know the difference between reality and a myth.

Yes, Liverpool Airport at long last has a resident police officer, it took a long time did it not to
get one based at the airport - how long has the airport been in existence?

I am aware of several other similar vehicle related events - it is a fact of daily unreported life
at the airport - and don't forget some years ago the then resident police helicopter was attacked
and firebombed on the main terminal apron. A conversation with the crew on one occasion brought up
the subject of an item of police equipment which had gone missing from the police 'secure' compound
within the 'secure' airport. Merseyside police now base their heli ops at RAF Woodvale / Southport.

newswatcher

fortunately nothing of value was nicked so I picked up the loss personally. At the end of the day
you would only be paying a higher insurance premium the following year. I hear what you say and
agree 'Catch 22'.

My dealings with reporting crimes to the police over the years has shown that they don't want the
trouble of even entering it in the log - to keep their crime figures down - let alone doing anything
about the crime itself.

In your case Newswatcher you will not have seen the (lack of) security fencing around the side and
back of the airport. Wooden waist high fencing, many individual rails missing, interspersed with the
occasional hedge, allowing anyone to enter, including children riding their bikes through the
sterile area as noted last summer. :mad:

[dwlpl]

Rockwell.

Crime statistics will be collected under the SAME guidelines by all police forces throughout the UK. How you interpret those figures (posted not by me as you will be aware) 'is up to you'.

Also, maybe you can tell us all why, when you crossed over the boundary into Merseyside, you are compelled not to report a crime(s) which you, presumably, would have reported somewhere else in the UK?

[newswatcher]

See BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/3918695.stm)

[Aerofoil]

Although i agree that they are where they should be i agree with the person in the article. They should be in prison for much longer!

These are the scum of our country and they are the direct reason for the country being in the state it is in today! I see this a lot where i am from and i think there is only one place for them...PRISON!

My best regards go out to the family who have lost an innocent loved one.

Dave

[symphonyangel]

It was a terrible event, but the problem was leaving keys in the ignition - it happens across the country in supermarkets and petrol stations too but never leading to such tragic consequences. It's a good thing the airport CCTV images were so clear which led to the conviction. Hopefully all airports have such coverage.

I also understand JLA's rates bill doubled from £600,000 in 2003 to £1.2million in 2004, you would think this would merit a better police service. No airport should have to pay for policing twice, once through the rates and again separately. That doesn't seem to happen in Europe where the regional, national or even army forces patrol the landside areas without funding direct from the airports.

[terrier21]

I know it willbe nothing compared to the way the poor mans loved ones must be feeling but I can't believe people can blame the security agent on the terminal forecourt how must he be feeling. There are only a couple of small minded :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: to blame and I hope they get what they deserve while they are in prison from some twenty+ stone guy looking for some loving who is in for life and will be happy to teach the :mad: 's a lesson.

All the best to that poor mans family and friends

terrier