Socata TB10

[Pianorak]

Can somebody please tell me if the Socata TB10 Tobago is an all-metal design. Thanks.

[2Donkeys]

... with the exception of the wingtips, tailcone, spats, windows and a few other obvious bits.... yes.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Yes it is.

Socata's answer to the Arrow.

OK to fly, speeds not dissimilar to the Arrow, bit heavier feel to it.

Anything else you want to know about them?

FD

[2Donkeys]

I don't think you could really call the TB10 "Socata's answer to the Arrow", and the cruise speeds are polls apart in small GA terms, regardless of what Socata's glossies say. Perhaps 130-135kts for the Arrow, and anywhere between 110 and 125 for the TB10.

At 180HP and with Fixed gear, it is perhaps closer to the Archer. There have been some that have said that the extra complexity and weight of the CSU and VP prop put the TB10 at a disadvantage in comparisons with the Archer. Certain a shiney newish Archer will outperform a TB10.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Doh!

Obviously not awake yet or need to find a good AME to do the visual acuity. ;)

I read Socata ST10!

Indeed; still all metal, but more akin an Archer with speed and handling.

More spacious inside and easier to get in and out of with the 2 doors. The supposed 5 seats are only available if you have little kiddies in the back.

FD

[2Donkeys]

The ST10 Diplomate. Now there is an aircraft that you don't read about much these days.

Basically, an "improved" Gardan Horizon with enormous corrosion problems.

Not to be touched with somebody else's bargepole IMHO.

;)

2D

[Say again s l o w l y]

Pianorak are you thinking of getting one?
TB10's are good a/c as long as you get a later model with improved headroom, most people over 5' 10" seem to struggle with the early model. The interior is a bit Austin Allegro and the doors can be a pain in the a**e when taxiing on a hot day, but a good load lifter, fairly fast (110-115kts realistically), stable and possibly the easiest a/c to land as long as you get the speed about right.

[2Donkeys]

The true TB10s (as opposed to the GT models) do have quite restricted headroom, especially if you wear DCs or other headphones with a thick headband.

However there is an approved mod to the seats which may offer some options - I speak as a 6'4" former TB10 owner :D

Fast is obviously relative looking at other people's comments. For a 180HP powered aircraft, they are really quite slow, and they have a relatively long ground roll on take-off, although the distance to 50 feet is about average. Perhaps not the ideal bird to operate of a short grass strip 4-up.

Load carrying is perfectly adequate, although C of G limits need very careful attention. At the rearward limit the stability is rather poor and could kill the unwary.

Most pre 1990 TB10s have a 14V electical system which makes for some issues with avionics compatability, and for notoriously unreliable T and P gauges.

TBs of all numbers manufactured prior to 1989/90 are known for serious corrosion issues, particularly in the wings/spars. There are many examples that have required new wings in order to stay flying.

Build quality is OK, but there are some weaknesses. The gas-struts that hold the gull-wing doors open often fail, door latches in early models failed and were replaced, and the lower cowling can be a pain to fit, meaning that many have fibreglass damage visible from where the exhaust has come into contact with the cowling.

The spats need careful attention too, particularly if you elect to operate off grass. There have been a least two TB10s written off when grass accumulated in the spats ignited in contact with hot brake disks.


I think that is about it... :D

2D

[Keef]

The "sort-of" equivalent to the Arrer is the TB20. I was about to buy into a group on one of those about 6 years ago. Fortunately the "problem" group member turned up as I was about to go and fly the thing with the member selling the share. He had to take his girlfriends to lunch NOW and hadn't got time for the man with the plane booked to fly it!

The TB10 and TB20 look very nice; that gull-wing door is a bit of a pain; it's only a 4-seater in reality. If you can afford one, and it's your sort of aeroplane, go for it!

[strafer]

Pianorak,
This may be the plane that piqued your interest. If not, heh ho...
http://www.thehangar.co.uk/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.pl?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=3702&query=retrieval

Is it me or is 8 grand a lot for a 1/10th share?

[Pianorak]

Good grief – didn’t realize all the familiar names from “t’other one” would turn up proffering excellent advice. In no particular order: Saw a share available where I am training, and as I am getting perilously close to the Skills Test my thoughts are drifting in in the general direction of syndicates and groups. And I do like the look of the TB10 – which I suppose should be the least of my concerns. However, having discussed it with some of the FIs at the club this morning some concerns were expressed about undesirable stall characteristics, ie sudden wing drop etc. General concensus seemed to be that the Robin DR400 might be preferable. Going down that route means overcoming my totally unfounded prejudice to fabric-covered airframes. But than I managed to overcome my prejudice to grass which I now find much easier to land on than tarmac. Talking of which have just returned from Thruxton and tarmac landing is now much improved – as are diversions and precision flying – all practiced this morning.

Anyway, having all the experts here: what’s your verdict on the TB10’s stall behaviour? Funnily enough, I quite like a good stall and am actually quite good at stall recovery – in a PA28 that is. Any other vices I should be aware of in the TB10 and/or Robin DR400? Any other a/c suitable for a rookie? Tricycles only please!

Well, back to “work” for night flight briefing. Shall log on again later.

[Say again s l o w l y]

If you like an 'interesting' stall, then get a Harvard!! (not a lot of good for a rookie!)
The TB10 is as docile as can be in the stall, quite similar to a PA28.
I personally like all the TB series machines in comparison to PA28's. The only Piper I like is the Saratoga, but that's just my own personal prejudice.

The DR400 is a wonderful machine to fly, but MUST be kept hangared. I'm not particularily au fait with them but I think the running cost are good overall. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)

[2Donkeys]

The TB10 stall is not at all unusual, and is nothing to write home about in comparison with the usual Piper types. Sounds like a case of second-hand misinformation on the part of the instructor.

Recovery from the spin (which is not a permitted manoeuvre) can be tricky with a rearward C of G, which is one of the reasons for the obvious strakes under the rear fuselage. Not an issue though.

The DR400 is also a nice aircraft, and much faster than the TB10 for the equivalent engine size. It absolutely must come hangared though, and a very thorough pre-purchase inspection is desireable by one who knows Robins. Being wooden framed, the first time you get a Robin recovered, you can be in for a nasty shock.

2D

[Flyin'Dutch']

Being wooden framed, the first time you get a Robin recovered, you can be in for a nasty shock.

Oi!

Less of that!

There is the spar glue issue (basically a query about the glue for some vintages) and it is necessary to make sure that yours is either complied with or OK.

Other than that they are fine aircraft.

Try both and see which one you like best. I bet it will be the Robin. Much nicer handling as 2Ds said more bang per bucks in the speed department, excellent loadhaulers over long distances, pretty and an unrivalled visibility from those big canopies.

Yup they have to be hangared but in fairness, all aircraft benefit from living indoors, as do you on cold wet days!

FD

[IO540]

Pianorak

I fly a TB20 and know the TB10 also. Who ON EARTH told you the TB10 has dodgy stall behaviour? Yes... probably an instructor. Probably the same one would say a PA38 is a real HE-man’s plane.

A friend of mine is an instructor; I take him up when a go up locally for an hour here and there... recently he commented it was the first time in ages he had been past the fold in his chart. His chart is folded into a rectangle about 6 inches square... But that’s PPL instructing.

When I was looking at syndicates etc (during my PPL training) I spoke to a load of "instructors" for their "expert" views and, in retrospect, I had never got so much bull**** from any single group of people. In general (emphasis) instructors are the last people you want to ask about different planes. Most simply don't know but won't tell you they don't know something, and some will feed you bull**** because they want you to continue spending money at their school. I could tell a few stories about the latter but won’t.

A TB10 is preferable over a PA28 or a Cessna every time. It's more expensive, yes, for the same reason a Cortina costs more than a Fiesta, or (because the TB dashboard is French) a Renault costs more than a 2CV :O Do you won't get a TB10 without major faults for the price for which you can find a PA28 without major faults.

It's a proper comfy 4-seater, with access for the passengers whereas in a PA28 everybody has to climb, crawl and fight their way over through the ridiculous single door. A Cessna has two doors but a TB10 is a far slicker plane – wait till you start flying with “normal people” as passengers for this to sink in.

The TB10 spar was a major issue; you need to check the relevant AD was complied with; a certainty if this plane is openly operating. I am PMing you with more info on who to ask about this.

Other issues are the usual ones: whether the plane is on a Private or Public CofA; unless you own the plane outright, the latter is needed to train for the initial award of a License or a Rating!! Is there an agreement on maintenance between the other members; problems there will mean that “non essential” faults won’t get fixed. But the issues of group ownership have been well covered elsewhere.

Robins - haven't they had a load of wing failures in "bad weather"? A plane can't live in a hangar all the time; often it gets pushed out by other owners for access reasons and left out for ages in rain...

[Flyin'Dutch']

Robins - haven't they had a load of wing failures in "bad weather"? A plane can't live in a hangar all the time; often it gets pushed out by other owners for access reasons and left out for ages in rain...

Oi!

The only wing failure I know of (CMIIAR) is the one where the aircraft ran into a big bale of straw upon landing and took of shortly afterwards without an inspection.

Can hardly blame that on the aeroplane methinks.

A plane can't live in a hangar all the time; often it gets pushed out by other owners for access reasons and left out for ages in rain...

What sort of argument is that then?!?

So according to that reasoning everybody who pays for hangarage is an idiot?

The Robin used to share its hangar with 3 other machines and it was never left out by any of the other owners, neither is the Lance or the Condor, just depends on your arrangements.

Of course Robins can stay out in the rain and it is certainly no problem to leave them out if you go away for a trip and leave it parked outside. However that would not be the preferred storage for these aeroplanes, as goes for any aeroplane.

FD

[Pianorak]

Strafer – Yes, that’s what triggered off my enquiry. What concerns me more than the capital investment is the regular annual outlay and assuming 35 hours p.a. (which appears to be above the GA average – but please tell me I am misinformed) £3,000 seems reasonable, although as someone pointed out the regular monthly payments may not include contributions to an engine fund etc. Hmmm. :(

I am happy to say that it wasn’t my regular FI who raised the stall issue. That said most FIs, rather to my amazement,e don't seem to be able to tell a Mooney from a Socata or a Robin, and couldn’t tell you whether they are all-metal, fabric-covered or made of composites. Thank goodness for Pprune et al. :D

Thanks again guys for all the information - plenty of food for thought.

[Evo]

The only wing failure I know of (CMIIAR) is the one where the aircraft ran into a big bale of straw upon landing and took of shortly afterwards without an inspection.


There was also a wing failure in France - you hear different things from different people about that one, but I'm not sure if that was every fully understood. Lots of "might have previously been overstressed in IMC" etc. but I don't think it was ever traced back to a cause. IIRC, of course.

Saying that, they're wonderful aeroplanes. If I was buying a 4-seat tourer and couldn't afford a TB20 then i'd look very hard at a DR400.

[Pianorak]

If you like an 'interesting' stall, then get a Harvard!!

Is that the same Harvard mentioned in G. Wellum's "First Light"?

[2Donkeys]

Could be. I don't know of any others.

The Harvard has a very sudden stall without any of the buffeting you associate with training aicraft. One minute it is there, the next it isn't.

Quite surprising when it happens. Coincidentally, I watched a video this weekend in which a friend performed an inadvertant high-speed stall recovering from some aeros in a Harvard. The ball wasn't in the middle and the aircraft did a nice wingdrop to start flying again on a heading 90 degrees away from the original. Nice footwork by the co-pilot :-D

The TB10 is nothing like that ;)

2D

[Say again s l o w l y]

Yes that is the same Harvard, I don't know any others. I've only been in a couple and I have to say that I was surprised by the stall!:ugh:

Pianorak, some of us instructors do know a bit about other a/c other than the bog standard school spamcans. Though many 'hour building' instructors won't really have a clue as they just aren't interested unless it has more than one engine.
Pprune is a great source of info about owning and operating your own a/c, something the vast majority of FI's know stuff all about.

Show this thread to your FI and tell him to stop talking bo**ocks, the TB10 is totally docile in all regimes. I've abused them for 5 years now and I've never had anything untoward happen to me no matter what the provocation. (Not very good at Aileron rolls, even if it is a CAA examiner trying it!!)

[Pianorak]

Say again s l o w l y -
<<That said most FIs, rather to my amazement, don't seem to be able to tell a Mooney from a Socata . . .>>

Sorry, I didn’t mean to cast any aspersions, and I’d better rephrase the above: “That said most FIs I have met, which isn’t all that many, don’t seem to be able to tell . . .”

Quote: “Show this thread to your FI and tell him to stop talking bo**ocks”. Ah well, it wasn’t my FI who commented on the stall characteristics; he is far too intelligent to talk bo**ocks. He’s a brilliant chap and I am very lucky to have him. Wouldn’t want to upset him.

PS: Been having terrible trouble logging onto Pprune all afternoon.