Hour building pre-PPL

[Gilky]

I am about half way through the PPL and have an opportunity to build some hours cheaply while abroad on holiday. I know that these hours can't contribute towards my PPL.

Would they, however, count towards the minimum hours for commencing my CPL, given that I hadn't got my PPL when I had built the hours.

[BEagle]

How, pray, to you propose to log flight time when you hold neither licence nor rating?

[genius747]

Unless you have an SPL and some how manage to get a licenced instructer to authorise all your solo flights then you will have to log every flight as P.u/t with a licenced instructer.

Of course every entry into your log book will increase your TT but to me I'd save my money!!

[Gilky]

BEagle

I propose to log flight time in exactly the same way I do every time I take a lesson i.e. with an instructor. My question is, are these hours valid post-PPL as the instructor is not a JAR instructor and I am not qualified

[Cutoff]

Well consider that you need 100 hours P1, before you can do a CPL, this as far as I am aware is the min requirement so in my opinion go for the hour building after the PPL, all other hours pre this whilst valuable actually do not achieve much for you, other than a good way to offload some money of course.

[FlyingForFun]

Yes, you can use the hours towards your total time.

Many CPL hours-builders do their flying outside of JAR-land. Most of this, of course, will be solo, but there will always be checkouts and so on with non-JAR instructors, and it counts just the same as with a JAR instructor, as long as the time is not specifically being used as training for a JAR license or rating.

FFF
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[S-Works]

But as cutoff states it is irrelevant as you need 100hrs P1 to do the CPL so all of the PUT hours will make NO difference they will just add to the total hours flown.

Personally I would find a JAR instructor and continue the training on his trip so he can get his PPL and then build the 100hrs P1 needed.

FFF, PPL hours builders do that POST PPL not before it.

[FlyingForFun]

It is irrelevant as you need 100hrs P1 to do the CPLTrue, but you also need 200hrs total time for CPL issue. Assume you get a PPL in 55 hours, and a CPL in 30 hours, add on the 100hrs P1 that you need, and that still leaves 15 hours to spare, which can be P1UT.

I still say that, if you can afford it, go for it. It might not be the most effective use of your cash in terms of raw license-getting power, but it'll give you another perspective on flying - you don't say where you're going on your holiday, but you may have to contend with different charts, different airspace, different types of scenery making navigation slightly different, different r/t and so on - all good experience which isn't shown in terms of pure hours. And - more important than any of that - it'll be fun :ok:

FFF
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[Dufwer]

If an instructor tells a student to do an hour solo, how should the student and the instructor log the time. In my experience the instructor doesn't log time and the student logs P1 time. That is how I logged it and the CAA excepted the hours for PPL issue. Gilky is asking if he were to log more than the usual P1 time prior to actually completing the PPL test whether those P1 hours count towards the 100 PIC hours required for the CPL. It boils down to whether the requirement for the flight to be signed off by an instructor excludes the flight from the 100 PIC hours. I don't see why it should as there is only one person in the aircraft and the PIC certainly would not be the one on the ground. Whilst doing my PPL I had to do about 10 hours at the end of the course, pre-test, due to a few missing signatures from my rather dated log book. I did these hours solo, logged as P1, and I certainly will count those hours towards the PIC hours I require for the CPL, unless somebody can show a valid reason, in which case I will be most upset. Have a look at
Lasors, Section A, Appendix B, Guide to logbook annotation, case L (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_A.pdf)

Gilky, I do not think it is wise to log too many hours this way. Rather get the license and then the hours.

FFF, what is P1UT? It doesn't appear in Lasors anywhere.

Regards
D

[FlyingForFun]

Dufwer,

P1UT is what LASORS calls P/UT. Not sure why I write P1UT in my logbook instead - I think it's just what my first instructor told me to write before I knew any better. It's what I've written ever since whenever I've flown with an instructor, and the CAA haven't complained so far - but you're quite right, I should refer to it as P/UT.

I don't think Gilky is talking about flying solo, though: "I propose to log flight time in exactly the same way I do every time I take a lesson i.e. with an instructor" (his words, my emphasis). Gilky - can you confirm?

FFF
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[Dufwer]

Thanks for clearing that up FFF.

Gilky, if you aren't talking about solo hours then ignore what I wrote! (I'm not going to delete it cause it's one of my better rambles :O )

D

[knobbygb]

Just to muddy the waters...

I THINK what Gilky is saying/asking is that any hours he does while abroad WILL count to his total hours but WILL NOT count to the 45 required for PPL issue, and WILL NOT count as P1 time. This is SORT OF correct but...

Of the 45 hours require for a JAA PPL...

25 hours have to be dual with a JAA instructor All have to be with an instrucor from the same JAA state.
10 hours have to be solo (under supervision of JAA instructor). These are logged as Pu/t and never count as P1 time.
The remaining 10 hours can be "any other flying".

Now the way I understand it, those final 10 hours don't have to be with a JAA instructor (or even under the supervision of one). When I applied for my license I'd logged a couple of hours dual with an FAA instructor (just sightseeing really), but the CAA allowed that as part of my total time. So I'd think that if Gilky did, say 10hrs flying abroad then this time could reduce the traing needed for his PPL (assuming he completes the syllabus in less than 45hrs), so it wouldn't be a waste of time or money.

I stand to be corrected, but I'm pretty certain that's how it works.

Gilky, what country are you going to on holiday, is it a JAA country or not, and if it's the States, is it with a JAA or FAA instructor?

[FlyingForFun]

Knobby,

You might be right, I'm not sure, and don't have time right now to read all the rules. But if that is the case, Gilky should certainly get something in writing from the CAA before trying to use those hours towards the 45 required for the PPL, because it would be very unusual.

However, you also said:10 hours have to be solo (under supervision of JAA instructor). These are logged as Pu/t and never count as P1 timewhich I'm afraid is wrong. Reference LASORS section A, appendix B (the link is a couple of posts higher up), case L: "Student pilot flying as the sole occupant of an aircraft during training for the grant of a PPL or CPL" logs time as "PIC or P1", and record the time by "Enter[ing] time in 'P1' column."

FFF
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[englishal]

None of the hours has to be with a JAA instructor, unless the rules have changed in the past couple of years.

All my hours were with an FAA Instructor, who had "knowledge of the JAA system" whatever that means (certainly not a JAA FI). The examiner was JAA, and the CAA were happy enough to issue a JAA PPL based upon my logbook.

As far as the Solo time goes, if one were able to go solo in say the States, and be signed off by an FAA instructor, then as far as I can see there is no reason why these hours cannot be logged as P1 / PIC or whatever its called. You're the sole manipulator of the controls, in an aircraft, in flight. You're in command.

Cheers
EA

[FlyingForFun]

Right, I've had a chance to look it up now. The answers are in LASORS, Section C (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_C.pdf). Nowhere in LASORS does it mention that the instructor has to come from any particular country, nor have any particular type of license. The only requirements are for 45 hours total time, of which 25 hours must be dual, and 10 hours must be solo (with some more details about the type of solo flight). So you can fly all of those hours with an instructor from any country, with any ICAO license.

However, there is an "Important Note" at the top of page 3:Training is permitted outside of the UK in a Non-JAA state provided that the flying training organisation has been approved by the UK CAA for the purpose of the JAR-FCL PPL(A).So if the school in question (note - it's the school, not the instructor, which is important) doesn't have UK approval, you may not count any of the time at that school (including, I think, solo time, although that's not clear) towards your 45 hours.

FFF
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[englishal]

However the time can still be logged and although not used towards the issue of a JAA PPL, can be used for TT requirements AFTER PPL.....

CU

[FlyingForFun]

Agreed! :ok:
.

[BEagle]

FfF:

Instruction in flying
29 (1) A person shall not give any instruction in flying to which this article applies unless:
(a) he holds a licence, granted or rendered valid under this Order or a JAA licence, entitling him to act as pilot in command of the aircraft for the purpose and in the circumstances under which the instruction is to be given; and
(b) his licence includes an instructor’s rating entitling the holder to give theinstruction.
(2) This article applies to instruction in flying given to any person flying or about to fly a flying machine or glider for the purpose of becoming qualified for:
(a) the grant of a pilot’s licence; and
(b) the inclusion or variation of any rating in his licence.

In other words, under the UK ANO, you can't receive flying instruction for the grant of a PPL from anyone who doesn't hold a JAA licence with associated instructor rating. However, the JAA can approve certain overseas organisations/instructors.

So, if someone comes back from an unapproved overseas training outfit with 'Pu/t' time, it will NOT count for licence issue (except, perhaps, as part of the 'total flight time' requirements).

[knobbygb]

FFF, told you I'd 'muddy the waters'. You're right about P1 time of course. I've logged all my solo training as Pu/t, but put the hours in the 'In Command' column in my logbook - as advised by the instructor. Doesn't matter really as I never plan to take this any further than a hobby so my total P1 time doesn't bother me really.

[Gilky]

Thanks all for the advice. As ever, as I'm rapidly discovering, there are many possible interpretations of the weird and wonderful rules and regs of GA. It's great that you guys are prepared to take the time to unravel them for us new boys & girls.

Just to answer a couple of questions:-

I'm going to South Africa so yes, FFF, charts, landscape, R/T will all be quite different

Even if I could, I have no intention of using these hours towards my PPL. I am learning at a great school with a great instructor and am fully commited to them both.

The school I will be flying with in SA is not JAA accredited but I am intending to fly some time P1 under instructor guidance on the ground. Will they count as TT towards the CPL? I get the feeling they won't.

Whether they will or not, I'm going to fly purely for the fun and experience a of it:ok:

[FlyingForFun]

Gilky,

Yes, that time will count as total times towards your CPL.

If you're going to SA, there are a couple of JAR schools out there, so it might be possible to count your hours towards your PPL if you pick the right school. But if you've already got your heart set on a particular school which isn't accredited, then it's no big deal, since you already understand the issues.

FFF
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[S-Works]

I am mystified how you can go and fly P1 without a licence? Unless you are recieving approved instruction in SA no one in there right mind is going to allow you to fly solo.

So you either have to find a JAR school out there and temporarily transfer your training there or you have to embark on a SA PPL course and meet the requirements for solo flight as part of that. You will have to take the SA air law exam and get an SA medical before you can do that.

Your only option seem to be to me is to fly as a sightseer under the direct supervision of an instructor who will be in the right seat and will be logging the flight time.

[Northern Highflyer]

Well consider that you need 100 hours P1, before you can do a CPL

Where is this stated ?

All the information I have come across says 150 hours TT, to include 70 PIC before starting a CPL course.

[FlyingForFun]

NH,

This is actually a requirement for license issue, not for starting the course. It is stated in LASORS Section D (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_D.pdf), page 5.

FFF
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[Dufwer]

To add to what FFF has pointed out, Lasors does have 70 PIC for intergrated course requirements. Seems strange that on an intergrated course you can get the license for less flying hours but more cost!

D

[Northern Highflyer]

FFF

That now makes sense. The initial wording "before" confused me.

NH