Future of the Air Engineer

[Eng Future]

As we all know the last Air Engineer course starts this month, with the school closing Jan 05. The Air Force did not meet it's target as to the number of trainees through the system last year, also it has dawned on our lord and masters that the new aircraft making the engineer redunderant will be late into service. To this end they have started to offer two year contract extensions to those people coming up to there twenty two year point. Personally I thing to take one of these extensions would to shoot ourselves in the foot, all it will do is allow them to defer the decision as to what to do with the branch for a further two years, rather than address the needs of the individual and the branch as a whole. Personally I am fed up of my future in the Airforce being so uncertain, one moment I am told that there is a future only for the next minute someone to say "Well we only want you for as long as it suits us". They should put together a proper package or tell the truth and say we only want you till two thousand and X.

[Tiger_mate]

For whatever reason, regarding NCA issues in general, the RAF are reactive not predictive. Therefore you will not get the security you seek for nobody knows what the RAF actually need. IMHO the NCA review was significantly driven by giving Air Eng a second NCA career in the near future, ie re-role to ALM or AEOp.

I think your long term ambitions need to be along those lines or collecting a P45. Tough I know but thats progess for you.

You should become an ALM and tell your peers how much more than them you earn for the same rank and service:{

[Engineer]

"Well we only want you for as long as it suits us"

Call me cynical but is that not all ways the case.

If you want to continue a flying career best not to cut off your nose to spite your face. Because outside the service there are limited prospects unless you consider a career change.

Train driver may be :ok:

[ZH875]

Eng Future said To this end they have started to offer two year contract extensions to those people coming up to there twenty two year point

With this sort of grammar, he will never make the grade of a low class penpusher, and aircrew think they are the best of the rest!

If this the standard of NCA aircrew that the RAF has, it is about time the whole of the NCA cadre was civilianised or offered to aircraft engineers to do. No wonder the mighty J and co have replaced the Air Eng by a bit of electrical string and a few transistors.

[cyclic]

"we only want you as long as it suits us" - great prep for civvie street!

Are there any re-unions planned for the great demise?

[Eng Future]

ZH 875,
It's lucky I'm an Engineer not a pen pusher, spelling is at the bottom of a very long list of thing I need to know. If you knew what you are talking about you would know that the majority of Air Engineers are remustered ground engineers, infact for the last 4 years it has been compulsory for all Air Engineer candidates to be ex ground engineers

Tiger_mate
The problem is now that the airforce banked on the majority of Air Engineers coming out of the service between 2008 and 2009, they did not want to retrain people who are approaching their (spelt properly just for you ZH875) 22 year point, but because it suits them they would like to extend us by 2 years only to cover their gap.

[Throttle Pusher]

ZH do I detect a little chip on the shoulder? If you can deduce the quality of an individual from a few lines of English then you must be in high demand for your services.

The future of the Air Eng has been in doubt for several years and any one that has passed through training during this time must have realised that a long term career as an Air Engineer was unlikely. I believe the change to NCA was not done as T M suggests to give Air Eng’s a second career, but should make it easier for those that want to stay flying to do so. I also hope the ALM’s are paid the same as their other non commissioned colleagues before much longer.

It is up to individuals to decide if a contract extension is right for them but for any one under 40 I would suggest that they will be lucky to fly as an Air Eng to the age of 55. The decision on what to do with the branch has already been made, nobody gets an Eng brevet anymore. A decision on FSTA would help alleviate some of the uncertainty for people especially when a decision on the crewing is announced ie NCA or commisioned third person required. For now I will continue to do the job I love until the aircraft are no longer there. If I were 10 years younger I’d be working for my pilots licence.

[Sideshow Bob]

I have enjoyed my time as an air engineer but rapidly approaching 40 years old need better security for my family and me. A two year extension would really put me the wrong side of 40 for entry into a very competitive job market. Even if I was told that I could sign on but only remain as an air engineer as long as required and then retrain to a task the airforce require me to do. There are a lot of engineers who would happily consider ALM or AEOp given the choice between remaining aircrew or becoming a civvy.

[ZH875]

Eng Future, I take it you were previously a rigger or other dirty TG1 trade then.

I suppose the excellent TG2 trade can spend hours not finding the fault because you mis-spelt the system that was u/s and sent them looking at a similarly named system.

Just as long as you know where all the pies are, we will all be OK.

Throttle Pusher, No Chip, just a penchant for winding up aircrew types.

Happy New Year and safe flying to all aircrew (and GE's)

[betty_boo_x]

The whole world is an uncertain place at the mo`. :cool:
The waters are muddied by the impending introduction of FSTA, A400, MR4 and NCA PAS all of which are a right old laugh and cause endless hours of merriment down the pub . To think for one minute(make that one second) that any assurance over the long (medium-short!!) term future of a trade that has had an air of uncertainty for the past decade, is plain daft.
Any fule kno that there is an impending crisis looming regarding "bums on seats" once you add to the mix the further unclear future of C130K. The village barber and Sqn cleaner look with puzzlement at the planning board,then gaze vacantly around the section!!
Allegedly there will be clear guidance given in the early part of this year(got to go -a pig has just crashed into my roof) as the very people giving that guidance have carreers and CV`s to protect.
The fudge over WSop ,retraining and carreer changes could possibly be accountant driven to avoid paying redundancy to keep Chief Beancounter happy.
If you need reassurance then speak to your desk man - he/she/it will always tell it straight. Oh and add to the plot that the blue blooded Air Eng`s will be around for a long time too - as they are even more expensive than the pondlife and BZN stores has a stock of carpet slippers till well into the next decade.
The futures bright:cool: :cool: the futures WSop+a kilt
HAPPY NEW YEAR:{

[BEagle]

Good luck, Eng Future.

It would seem to me that it will be down to the FE's 'union' to delay any clear decision of accepting the extra 2 years until they've been told what the associated financial retention incentive will be.

Regarding equality of pay for FEs and ALMs, would those in favour please describe in simple, non-antognistic terms how they would explain to a faceless bean counter why the RAF should pay them the same when no airline ever pays its cabin staff more than its flight crew? Because that's the sort of flawed logic you might be up against...... " 'cos we're warry rufty-tufties" ain't going to cut the mustard, I would venture.

[Throttle Pusher]

Getting a bit off topic but ref your last comments Beags. I know your view of ALM's has been tainted by your years on the mighty 10 and those of them that speak with a lisp.
The job the rotary guys do in my view more than justifies a salary in line with that of an air engineer and especially an AEop. It will have to be addressed with the introduction of NCA. Don’t belittle the rotary and low level tac guys because the job on the 10 is not that demanding. Nobody ever suggested you got paid less than an F3 mate because you flew multi's.

[BEagle]

You don't need to convince me, I do appreciate the value of ALMs in tactical aircraft; I have not belittled them in any way in my post.

As I said, it's the beancounters who'll need convincing - so imagine that you're having to explain why to them, not me!

[Indicating Full]

Eng Future

"infact for the last 4 years it has been compulsory for all Air Engineer candidates to be ex ground engineers"

I think you will find that the decision to only recruit Air Engineers from within the service had more to do with the morality of recruiting DEs into a trade with no future. It is more acceptable to train Serving Airmen and give them the benefit of increased rank/pay/status/responsibility and a 22 year engagement.

Yes, I am a DE Air Eng who did not realise the grim future of the branch until I got to my first Sqn 13 years ago. I have a feeling there will be a lot of us around for another 13 years but 2 year extensions is probably not the way ahead.

To clarify a few other points the last Air Eng intake as we know it starts ITC on Sunday and will graduate in Mar 05. There has been talk of some sort of piss up to mark the event but nothing firm yet.

[betty_boo_x]

Getting back to the point ! (scroll to top of page to get the topic!)
The 2yr extension offer is plainly derisory and another fudge to cover a larger problem.
Those recent recruits to the branch should consider their future employment options very carefully.
Never mind about crewroom gossip - take balanced advice and do whats right for you.
We should start yet another thread about how poorly off the ALM`s are and how the rotary hero`s deserve more money, but then again ....dont we all!!
Tell it to the Judge not me, as I know you have been `had over`,but then again....have'nt we all !!
Leave spanner monkeys to name calling, and movers to baiting - breathe deeply and rise above it. Then prepare for a `kin huge bat:eek:

[Tiger_mate]

Beags: Despite your subsequent comment, your initial ALM comments sounded pretty insulting to me.

Nevertheless, the argument is very straightforward: For some time now I have not been an ALM but an WSOp, and my peer WSOp are paid more despite the same time served and rank. That is unfair, and will probably get the RAF a Court Case one day.

I am not a Union man myself, but there is not a Union on the planet that would accept the present injustice.

......and the reasoning of "Too dificult to upgrade the PMA computer" beggars belief.

Nearly every rotary Sqn is undermanned with ALM. If the Flt Eng bretheren fancy a job, get your bids in. The present experience dilution rate is critical, and a group of qualified aircrew with airmanship would be a breath of fresh air.

Oh and Beags, I have FRCs in my pocket. The ALM with whome you tar us all do not. (I understand), I even get to turn switches on and off now and again, and navigate; such fun.

[The Gorilla]

Happy New Year One and All!!

Ahh it's so nice to see that in 2004 the bickering and jealousy is still present in equal amounts, with a touch of arrogance to boot!!

ZH you are obviously commissioned !! Get a life M8!!

Air Eng's. Please wake up and smell the coffee, especially the NCA Eng's. You have NO future at all!! Eventually the last 30 odd Air Eng's will all be commissioned and at Waddo, around 2010/2012

If and I feel it is a big if, NCA PAS comes in it will not IMHO include Air Eng's. PMA are already on record as stating that any possible redundancy terms for Air Engs will NOT be as favourable as those given in the past. Those who opt for ALM will end up Rotary with nil seniority!!

There are no new jobs appearing in Civvie Street and no chance of a future in the RAF. I advise you to begin retraining for something else before it is too late.

Betty Boo: The whole world is an uncertain place at the mo!

Really!!! Only if you are unfortunate enough to be in the military matey!! I am in an industry that is having £Billions chucked at it and most of it isn't taxpayers money!!

I also strongly disagree that your deskman will tell it to you straight! They have one brief only - fill the gaps, offer non-existent carrots. Just like their senior officers above them, they will lie to you if they have to and any one who thinks otherwise is naive. Just look at the man in charge of the MOD!!

If you stay in and get rolled over, you have to accept that as part of your terms of service. You have no rights at all, you know it and unfortunately they know it!! They are actively relying on the fact that the pull for Air Eng's in Civvie Street is non-existent. But I am finding that in a non-aviation industry my ex Air Eng skills are in great demand and the financial incentives are there to be had!!

As Capt Black Adder once said before blowing his whistle: -

"Good luck everybody"


:ok:

[betty_boo_x]

:ooh: Oooh deary me,from one of our own too!
There are lots of good courses you can go on both in and out of the military to help with anger management,please take a moment and consider one - you could always use an assumed name:rolleyes:
Bully for you that your industry is having money spent on it, so are BWoS,Crockheed Martin,Parmalat et al........whatever:=
The whole world is uncertain unless you are watching different news to me.....is BA223 on or off again.....is Hutton likely to affect the price of chips.......are coppers getting shot ???
For those that want to stay there will be employment somewhere,albeit with the rotary hero`s or the monkeys in Lincolnshire although how they are all getting Commissioned is a little unclear :( :(
Have a nice life,get back on message,quit whingeing,take off your blinkers,organise a group hug, remember the good old days when you had to eat s*1t and calm down a little (think about that course I mentioned)
Back to the topic,times are uncertain for all of us and even moreso Air Eng`s:sad: :sad: :sad:
Oh while I remember the comment about my desk man was irony(probably too well disguised for your angry retort)

[JimNich]

From the tone of everyones post here I guess no-one is really expecting a fair, well thought out and cleverly constructed solution to what could be a very serious manning crisis.

Nope, what you're gonna get is another expensive thinktank/review team/feasability analisys/manpower study type thing or some other smoke screen process designed as an emollient for an under valued work force. Which is really just another tool for ensuring people get their staff tour tick before promotion (can't even begin to think where I could possibley have gotten that idea).

Eng Future, I never got offered an extens........... oh yeah, I forgot, you have to be a "union" member for that.

Anyway, its been a blast, take care guys.:p

[The Gorilla]

Oh irony!! Like bronzy and Goldy!!

:ok:

[A and C]

Lets face it the future of the Flight Engineer is limited but that is not a reason to take the skills that are part of the F E,s trade and build on them.

The fact that all F E,s have a great deal of experience in system management , practical navigation , CRM and the like ( i could go on ! ) is not lost on the civil flying world , however the one thing that you cant do is fly the aircraft and this is something that you can address !.

The RAF has a number of flying clubs that all train pilots to way above the standard of the "average" PPL and at a fraction of the normal cost , aircraft hire is also very cheap when it comes to building hours that are needed to start the ATPL course.

Yours is a unque oportunity to get into the front seat of a jet airliner at a fraction of the cost to those in the civil world , Yes it is hard work to do all the exams but the flying is fun and the long term rewards are far greater than anything that the airforce will offer in terms of re trainning.

www.rafbfc.co.uk

I know of a number of F E,s who have taken this route and not one of them regrets it.

[BEagle]

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to direct attention to www.raffca.org.uk rather than to a specific club's website in order to avoid allegations of 'free' PPRuNe advertising, mate?

I agree that many, many FEs have learned to fly in this way; all the ones I know are currently flying for the airlines. But there was also a VC10 ALM who held a CPL/IR who was an intructor and examiner on both single and multi-engined piston aeroplanes!

[Throttle Pusher]

Off topic again but just visited the RAF careers web site (well there's not much on telly post the football).
According to the information available, a WSOp (Air Loadmaster) earns the same as a WSOp (Elecrtronic Warfare), top rate £44,409. WSOp (Air Eng) not mentioned of course. Does this mean FS/Master loadies can expect a pay rise soon?
Like to echo A and C and Beagles previous thoughts, any young Air Eng should be activley working towards a different career. The oppertunities for training as a pilot are there and should be taken advantage of. If your not prepared to do so take the money while it's available and dont winge.
Wern't many contract extensions at Virgin when they grounded the classics.:\

[QE4]

Extract from Air secs bull June 2003.

Both PMA33a (FJ and RW) and myself appreciate fully the change of emphasis that the AASS has provided. We have both been in close contact with Gp Capt ***** *******and his team over the last few months and are acutely aware of the concerns within the commissioned rearcrew cadre. Every effort will be made to ensure that no GD(Eng) or GD(ALM) is disadvantaged by the outcome of the Study; indeed in some areas it will ensure personnel are able to pursue other career paths and opportunities. Without doubt there is a definite mindset change required as to how we, the Service, employ the present commissioned rearcrew cadre. The size of the cadre will not increase and, as highlighted above, will reduce with time. However, with the removal of stovepipes across the JO desks the opportunities to progress and develop in the round are increasing by the day. It is now time for individuals within the rearcrew cadre to seize the opportunity and work with the PMA to exploit the benefits of the changes implemented over the last few months. This will ensure that all individuals within the commissioned rearcrew cadre continue to enjoy a full and rewarding Service career. It cannot be stressed too strongly that the projected end state has been both supported and endorsed by the AFBSC. It is now time to ensure that the progression towards both empowerment and down ranking is achieved in as positive a manner as possible.

There may be a few jobs for the NCA FE's left, if the Air farce actually follows the AFBSC descision above. Lets see some positive action to get the O's out of NCA posts. One possible solution may be to remove the retention element of their pay, as they no longer need to be retained as rearcrew officers. Sorry I'm applying logic again, we all know that will never happen!

C*cks a kipper, fish for tea!!

[The Gorilla]

QE4 Ahh if only!!

I have been told by 2 separate PMA desk officers (off record of course) that the stated aim is to ensure that the last remaining FE's are all commissioned. This will be achieved by ensuring that any future exit tranches are populated in the main by Baldricks.

The O's will do what the O's do best!!

I will sit out here and watch it happen!

:ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Could all happen a bit quicker than some think if the latest rumours about lack of funds for the all singing and dancing "Klassic" upgrade is to be believed:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[QE4]

Yes, there is a "plan" to have an end of Air Eng training bash. We just need confirmation of when we will eventually stop training Air Engineers!

[Charlie Luncher]

I know a place where we carry 2 engineers per aircraft if we can. Just means twice as many mars bars go missing. Oh it is sunny the wine is cheap and they sort of speak english.:ok:

Gorilla seems you are still on the wacky bananas mate, I thought you old retirees should take it easy. I am sure they will find an ideal spot for you in the union extra chips included.:{

Jim please tell me Maritime is not losing you, what will the fat chix in clubs do now:E .

Charlie sends

[QEI1]

218 AIR ENG COURSE HAS STARTED, THE LAST EVER! THEY ARE DUE TO FINISH AND GRADUATE APR 05. A BRANCH BASH IS BEING DISCUSSED AND IDEAS AND HELP WILL BE REQUIRED SHORTLY.
THE FIRST OF THE LAST INSTRUCTORS LEAVES POST IN APR 04. ALL WILL BE GONE BY MAR 05.

[The Swinging Monkey]

To ALL flight Eng's

I for one am particularly sorry to see the demise of you chaps.
Both myself and several other Nimrod crews that I know of, are alive and kicking today, thanks to the swift and professional actions of the good old 'eng.
There is no question that you have been severely shafted by the Airships, and I can only suggest that you start looking after No' 1, and cast aside any loyalty you might still have.
The RAF have had no qualms about leaving you out in the cold, and their actions have been, and are deplorable.
I very much hope you can all get jobs with cathay or the rest, where you will be far better paid, with better conditions and find the type of respect you guys richly deserve.

'twill be a sad day when you are gone.
My thanks once again
Yours

The Swinging Monkey

[pikeyeng]

:ok: two year extensions are going to be the last of your worries once flaunt gets hold of you, up the revolution brother!!

[Ginger Beer]

How many clues do the suits at binnsworth need?

BWoS financial ineptitude SO, bin the new rod and keep the mk 2 with the new mk 4 rear kit, keep the Ks and forget fsta.

FSTA, we can't afford another "smart/financial brainwave" so buy the L1011s that are sunbathing in the west coast desert and we will have a cheaper and very effective strategic tanker and transport ac until we can afford to buy new.

There is no point closing the eng school when FSTA is still a pipedream and an expensive one at that, even if you put the smart or PFI cloak over its term! There's no point closing the school when the rod mk4 is unlikely ever to enter full productive service. No point when the A400M is still a scribble on the drawing board. And the J well er, I rest my case your honour.

So, binnsworth want to end ginger beer trg? How can they be so dull as to announce the closure of trg when we will only have x ginge's left. They have based there great ideas on the introduction of the types stated above and on their predicted ISDs.

If those types or dates change or don't materialise as IS happening by the week!!, who will fly the current types? There are Ginger Beer mates already changing branch, getting commissioned and leaving the service, all because these great decisions are the writing on the wall and who in their right mind wants to wait for the push when the service no longer needs us?

The alternatives to the current training system for FEs (2x OCU's, or ask c130 or rods to do an abo package prior to 2xOCUs) are only going to produce a far weaker product for the front line, a quarter or third of the flight deck capability drastically reduced. I have said it a thousand times, airlines who only fly at high level and in benign situations probably can do without an FE, they have 20 mins or so to sort out the preverbial and before they hit the ground. HOWEVER, the air farce flies low level in close prox to the ground/sea, at high level in close prox to other ac, we fly into very dangerous places and flaunt ourselves at enemy and ask to be shot at, WE NEED MORE people on the flight deck not less. Let's keep the nav too, ever heard of synergy??

Stop making decisions until the facts are clear and firmly in place. If we lose one ac and crew the suits will soon realise that we are a cheap and effective solution to several problems.

Ginger Beer rests, m'lud.


Ginger Beer, only Bermudan and in a Dark-n-Stormy.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

GB,
Your diatribe is nothing short of incredulous:rolleyes:

Let me see if I have fully understood post....You want her her majesties finest to scrap any ideas of modernisation, keep the ancient sack's of pooh we currently own:sad: , buy some more ancient sack's of pooh currently rusting away in the desert cos no one else wants them..........just to keep you in a job:uhoh: ........get real fella:p

"WE NEED MORE people on the flight deck not less. Let's keep the nav too, ever heard of synergy??".....b@@locks old fella:p

Whilst I see you take another dinosaur swipe at the J, and can't help myself so have to respond, we are proving daily that you are WRONG :ok:

The moves afoot to bring us into the new century are commendable, and whilst as usual not that financialy astute they should however be welcomed. The simple fact of life is the modern flightdeck only needs two people so start to face the facts fella. Either look at re-training within the service, you never know you MAY :p have what it takes to be an ALM, but it sounds like "OP Support" would suit you better:O , or as plenty of very wise posters in here have advised train for a future outside.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[bigflyingrob]

Well anyone who thinks they have a future as an engineer is pretty optimistic! When you get out in civvy street you will find you are a disposable asset. Once you get used to the idea that if you don't like it you can F!!! off all will be well. I have actually had this said to me on more than one occasion. Welcome to the real world.

[The Gorilla]

My advice to all my fellow Air Eng's from an a recent ex Air Eng is:

GET OUT NOW AND BE AHEAD OF THE EXODUS!!

The qualities we possess (thanks Betty) are well in demand and respected in Civilian Street. We certainly rise above the rest!!

Any NCA Air Eng who thinks his bit of paper to 55 etc is worth anything is deluded. And for those who know me this is not bitterness or cynicism talking. The reality of the current situation is that the nutters running the madhouse at Innsworth have treated the NCA part of the Air Eng branch disgracefully over the last 8 years or so.

All of you, hands on your hearts, you know that you have no future as Flight Engineers, either in the Air Farce or in Civvie Street. I strongly urge you to start retraining courses and begin looking after number 1!

Sure, the decision to stop Air Eng training will lead to a shortage of Eng's in the medium to long term, but in the short term as the instructors and CFS posts move on there will be a temporary surplus which Innsworth will use to its advantage, not yours

If it really is true that 218 course is the last then this marks the beginning of the nailing down of the coffin lid. And last but not least let us not forget Hoons/MOD current thinking on shortages. If you don't have enough manpower, get rid of the equipment!! Al La problem solved!!

Any one from 146/147 Air Eng out there?

:ok:

[Civil Servant]

Always Broken,

I think you've missed the point of the diatribe.

The point was that a two crew cockpit is all very well at fl360 with no-one shooting at you, no-one trying to refuel from you and not a lot of chance of CFIT etc etc.

I have to agree that the military world should think twice before getting rid of of a flight deck aircrew category. Of course modernisation is here to stay, but lets remember that the first rule is fly safe and in a low level turnin' and burnin', tactical flying, multi engined, muliple threat environment may not be the best way forward and perhaps someone to look after the systems would be welcome while the bi-winged ones look out of the windows.

That takes care of FEs. Navigators perhaps more difficult to defend. However, I would offer that when perhaps battle damaged with all the whizzy glass stuff showing a black screen the folks in the pointy end with the good view will have more than enough to do keeping the thing from becoming a smoking crater than to try and work out from first principles "wherethehellarewe?" and how do we get back home?

[ClearReverse]

So the last course has started, so the Engineer has no future in the Air Force. IF you want to fly there are jobs around, I was pushed I didnt jump I had to go to make the numbers fit, and allow the Air Force to keep some aussies they had overpaid and underused. The jobs you will find are few and far between and you probably won't be getting lots of aunty betties nice dollars to spend on you're latest states trip BUT there are jobs available if you want them. Look after yourself, fly safetly, and enjoy the sandbox or the Hilton wherever you are.

:ok: :ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

CS,
I think it's you who have missed the point old chap:rolleyes:

"I have to agree that the military world should think twice before getting rid of of a flight deck aircrew category. Of course modernisation is here to stay, but lets remember that the first rule is fly safe and in a low level turnin' and burnin', tactical flying, multi engined, muliple threat environment may not be the best way forward and perhaps someone to look after the systems would be welcome while the bi-winged ones look out of the windows"

No worries we call them MC1 and MC2 :ok: and they look after our sytems fine:p so as you quite aptly put it.....

"That takes care of FEs."

...........and don't get started on the Nav issue as it WAS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN:mad:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Ginger Beer]

Thanks CS,

ABIW, once again you surpass yourself and go off half cocked and spouting off about your own perceived importance. A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing young man.

When you bother to really read what I said, you will realise that I was suggesting that the decisions being made now are being made with criteria which is changing by the hour. It would be more sensible to wait for the dust to settle over Hoons' future and the firm decisions on future platforms before stopping training of FEs. A fair comment? as we just might need'em.

Furthermore, if we can't afford the ac at the moment, you will see that my post suggested an alternative and obviously an interim measure, until the coffers are bouyant once more.

As an FE, I am going to be pro FE.

ABIW, you seem like a well balanced person as I notice a chip on both shoulders:=

Just to clear up any queries you may have, either way none of this mallarcky affects me and any career that I might have.

Now then, any intelligent comments?

GB

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

GB,
Yaaaaaawn...........can I have large fries with that:p

All spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[The Gorilla]

GB

"Now then, any intelligent comments?"

From ABIW?

Be serious old chap!!



:ok:

[cyclic]

I think, ABIW, you have now shown everyone why you are a loadmaster not a FE! Nuff said.

Having been a FE I feel a great sadness to see this all happen and I can only imagine what a cock-up Innsworth will be making of this. However, the writing is on the wall and has been for quite some time. I met some of the finest aviators and characters during my relatively short time as a FE. I have always been extremely proud to have worn the E brevet but progress is progress and the third man in the cockpit now does not need any systems knowledge let alone be able to decipher a foreign TAP for the two winged master race. All the trades have moved on and unfortunately the Air Eng brigade has historically been poorly represented.

No point stewing in the myre that is about to descend on you but better employ the skills you have somewhere else. There are plenty of opportunities out there for FEs, you just have to think a little out of the box (yuk). Training pilots is just the tip of the iceberg.

Just to pee on ABIW's sparklers, I have worked with some superb LMs but they were all rotary!

[HOODED]

And before any more of the 2 winged master race start, lets remember next generation fighters will be pilotless! Still need engineers to get em in the air and maybe even fly them! Hey maybe I've just found the perfect job for some ex FE's! ABIW don't think they'll need ALM's though, sorry! :E

[JimNich]

Charlie,

Indeed I am departing. Fat Buckie chicks now safe, not that they were in any danger as I was frequently accompanied by some git who kept saving me from myself (okay, so that last one was a real growler).

Anyway, I have jumped before I was pushed and believe it or not someone has given me a job (spooky). I leave with a lot of happy memories but without any regret, its time to go.

However, my thoughts go out to those left behind, its going to be a difficult time I think. The lines of communication in the branch were never that great and with those above clinging ever harder to their little pieces of information (knowledge is power don't forget), I forsee it will get pretty unbearable as the trade starts to draw down. As has already been muted, the answer is to start re-training now whether that be for an internal remuster or OU or commission and there's got to be no looking back, get on with it.

Well, have fun everyone, there's still ample chance for it if you look hard enough......... life ain't no rehearsal.:p

[ZH875]

Hey maybe I've just found the perfect job for some ex FE's
I don't think so. Thats why FE's become half-aircrew and proper Engineers fix things.

As a Fairy I would like to welcome all FE's to the real RAF. The one of cuts and more cuts and dissapearing trades.

The Avionic trade used to have 3 distinct trades and therefore 3 distinct promotion chains. In the 90's they amalgamated us all into one trade and cut the numbers by half because we can all do all the old fairy trades. This had a dramatic impact on promotion etc.

Now they are going to join the Fairies and the Electricians into a single trade and the numbers will eventually (sooner rather than later!) be cut, the impact on promotion will be felt yet again.

So if the trades of Comms, Radar, Flight Systems, Comms/Radar and Aircraft Electrician can all be replaced by a single trade with less than a third of the old manpower, with new aircraft (C130-J, Typhoon, Sentinel etc) why shouldn't the FE be replaced by a couple of black boxes (MC1 + MC2). An air force with less airborne overborne manpower is more efficient and cheaper (in pies per aircraft per annum at least)

The difference between a Flight Engineer and a Mission Computer is that when the aircraft has landed and power has been turned off, The mission computer stops whining.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Cyklick,
Maybe my rotary background gives me an advanatage...........and bearing mind I currently instruct on the J...so i think I know what i am on about:ok:

"and the third man in the cockpit now does not need any systems knowledge let alone be able to decipher a foreign TAP for the two winged master race"

Guess what..........we can do that :ok:.......Low level TAC.....they, the TAC Loadies can do that, and boy can they do that....F700....we can, and do that, and whilst we will never be Flight Engineers cos were not clever enough aviation has moved on.

My"chimpish" remark earlier about MC2 and MC2 hold true in that we are now completely computerised. There is no place for anyone else in the loop which, whilst some of my J compadre's will have a blue fit at this, is why my statement that a 2 man flight deck is here to stay is correct.

The third crew member, in our case the ALM, is an integral part of the loop but the front end, in conjuction with the automatics can cope with anything thrown at them that does not involve the ALM moving something aft of 245:ok:

So whatever your thoughts about my ability to balance you have to, as lots of sensible peeps in here have advised, move on. NO one thinks it's fair but look at any posts in here and see if fair features very often.

875, no need for that, they may talk about caravans as one my fav's on 70 did but THEY NEVER WHINED!!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[StopStart]

First off, I do not wish to start, nor get involved in, a K/J fight.

I've operated the K as a co and a captain and the J as a captain. The FE and the nav are integral to the way the K operates. They don't exist on the J so they aren't.

There are a lot of people in the RAF (all trades/ranks) that need to be bought kicking and screaming into the latter half of the twentieth century on this issue. The 2 man flightdeck can and does work. It doesn't matter if you're trash hauling at FL300, LL round the UKLFS or working 8 sector, high theat days round Iraq - the 2 man flight deck works and works well. Having worked both types I find the 2 man flightdeck I now work in so much easier to operate and manage than the 4 man one of the K. Not a dig at anyone or anything, just a statement of fact.

I'm not knocking the FEs (or the Navs or anyone for that matter) but folks really do need to shake off the old ideas and preconceptions about how we in the ME world do our business today.

[The Gorilla]

SS and ABIW

I whole-heartedly agree with you both. Whatever the rights and wrongs of a 2-man flight deck, it is here to stay in both the civilian and military sector. It can and clearly does work.

What the remaining Air Eng's have to do now is wake up and smell the coffee. Get retrained and get out while you still can.

The Branch is going to be left to deliberately whither on the vine, so you can either drop off now and bear fruit or stay and end up as mouldy bird food. The writing is on the wall in black and white.

All I can say is that from my experience, life really is quite good out here!!

Good luck one and all..

:ok:

[ClearReverse]

GET A LIFE don't moan about being a loadie we all know its not a real aircrew existance S%%t I know how to trim a load sheet I do it every day I drop between 16 and 20 tons no LM no NAV yet I still fly an L382G ( a herc to you you non flight deck types) the only reason you've got an MC1 or MC2 is to compensate for your lack of ability, you failed the selection to become real Aircrew and settled for second best a Brevet with LM in the middle. I wish I was young and good I would become a loadie NO I WOULD'N'T I've got TOOOOOOO much intelligence.As I said get a life all real aircrew trades have got a job if you look hard enough the cream will always come to the top of the milk.

Buy the way ABIW you were always a moaning little £$%^

ALL these spelling errors were created by real "df's" not what tha LOADMASTER stole or HID upon the ramp because he thought plods did'n't know.

Get out and join the real world fly for a living instead of being a ponce with an LM brevet and think you are good. LESS LOADMASTERS out there than real AIRCREW. By the way the CAA also say I'm AIRCREW don't know if they yet accept the proleterliat(please check spelling) friends as being licenced as far as I know only TWO licences available PILOT and FLIGHT ENGINEER.


"late night, drunk, and too used to the wingeing little gits moaning about being paid less than me F$%^&*G tough"

[Ginger Beer]

ABIW,

If you're always broken in wilts, you obviously need a Flight Engineer :ok:

Coffee, white with one sugar and hurry up about it ar$£m :ouch:

GB

[ZH875]

If you're always broken in wilts, you obviously need a Flight Engineer
NO!, like I said previously, you need a PROPER, REAL, ENGINEER, not a half winged pretend one.

[Ginger Beer]

875,

With the number of J's sitting on the pan at Lyn without engines, due to the inability of the operators (pilots and the ace LMs) AND ground engineering staff to operate them as per the manufacturers instructions, I think Ill rest my case.

I'd keep schtumm if I were you hot shot;)

GB

[pikeyeng]

:bored: now the LM fraternity have had a good slating lets not forget about the muppets down the back of the mighty rod. the majority of them profess to be experts on everything flight deck related and are constantly chipping in with totally useful suggestions when things are going to a ball of chalk NOT!!!! so if we start to run short of FE's just get seven scopies on the flt deck to help our two winged wonders, problem solved, actually just thought of a minor flaw in that one who's going to man the galley and the beams, I know lets get some shaved monkeys from Edinburgh zoo they could do it, they could also do radar and ESM:ok:

[StopStart]

GB

At the risk of this deteorating into yet another facile Pprune J/K thread I can't really let that go unanswered. I'd suggest you go look into the facts before accusing us of not operating the aircraft properly.

The aircraft have been operated as per the MAR and Lockheed's design specifications. The fault lies a lot further up the food chain and lot further from these shores than with those operating the aircraft here (and Oz and Italy). I believe it is now a legal/contractual matter.

GB/875/ABIW

This is of no relevance to the thread topic - there are some valid points being made on here; any chance we can avoid this thread going down the usual Pprune toilet of low quality "banter"?

Thus it ever was :ugh:

[Yeller_Gait]

Pikey,

I take it that you will be looking forward to your next meal being served with that old favorite ... "Special Sauce" ?

I thought it was only the C130 lot that slagged each other off, and that ISK was above that. You weren't at Lyneham before were you?

[Ginger Beer]

Don't worry StopStart,

I am fully aware of the debacle however, if our LM & GE mates were half as clever as they think/profess, one would have expexted them to have forseen and solved the problem?????

Mind you, if they were half as clever as they think, they'd be Flight Engineers:p

Now,

Can we go back to my original point and try to understand/reason why decisions are being made without all of the required information being available i.e. to stop FE trg whilst we do not really know how many bums are needed for future seats.

And,
What are the solutions, as there is unlikely to be much dosh around for gucci new airframes.

GB

[exeng]

If I may put my tuppence worth in from the civvy world. Your statement:
<<The simple fact of life is the modern flightdeck only needs two people so start to face the facts fella>>

That statement would perhaps be more correct if it read "As far as beancounters are concerned the simple fact of life is the modern flightdeck only needs two people so start to face the facts fella."

Having spent quite a number of years flying a variety of civilian types, Boeing and Airbus, big and small, two crew and three crew; centre, right and left seats, I'd like to add my opinion on the worth of F/E's.

Perhaps when the aircraft is in a technically fine condition, cruising in good weather, and there is plenty of fuel and plenty of options then there is not an immediate need for the expertise a profesional F/E can offer. Now look at a different scenario such as the Hapag LLoyd accident (running out of fuel) and consider the worth of an F/E. Consider the 767 incident mistaking lb's for kg's and running out of fuel. Consider the A330 accident mis-diagnosing a fuel leak and running out of fuel.

Consider the advantage of having two crew members on the flight deck at all times. Perhaps the Eygpt Air and Silk Air accidents (suicides + murder?) would not have occurred? Far better to have an additional crew member with you who is a technical expert rather than just another third pilot, or as in most cases no third crew member at all.

I believe we and the travelling public have been conned as always by the beancounters. New technology does mean cheaper routine maintenance and reduced wage bills, however it does not always mean a safer operation.

Despite all this it is now going to be very difficult to 'put the clock back'. So I agree with those posters who advise F/E's to consider re-training for another career; not all would wish to be pilots, but for those that do you will find it most worthwhile and your fine skills would then not be wasted.


Regards
Exeng

[Cardinal Puff]

I believe there is a licencing system for loadies but only if they fly pax. Something about cabin crew licencing, I think.

[The Gorilla]

ExEng

I hear and respect all your arguments. I think that once the J becomes the main TAC aircraft after the K goes we will have a large attrition rate. Then again may be not, only time will tell.

The fact is though that 2 men flight decks are here to stay in our lifetimes. Only a few Engineers will be able to convert to civilian Pilot posts. For those young enough, complete retraining is the only way ahead. It isn't difficult and our skills are well in demand.

Everyone has their own path to tread and for me, staying in was never an option once the bonuses ran out.

As for the banter from the LM fraternity, well we deserve it. It's only the same sort of banter we gave in large measure to the Aeops post downbanding in 89!!

Take it on the chin, realise your time left in the RAF is short and do something about your own future before Innsworth does it for you. Do not be naive and think that any future redundancy package will be anything other than the bare legal minimum.

Regards
TG
:ok: