Gliders and VFR

[140cherokee]

Following the earlier thread re: VFR and IFR...

Do glider pilots understand VFR rules or do they simply choose to ignore them? Or are they somehow exempt?

How often during the summer do you see gliders above 3000' that are clearly within 1500m laterally and 1000' vertically from cloud? I often see gliders thermaling near cloudbase. Is this legal, or do they become IFR above 3000' and consider thermalling to be some crazy climb to a quadrantal FL?


140

ps/ I started out as a glider pilot. I was never told about VFR rules until I commenced PPL training.

[MLS-12D]

I can't speak for the UK - where, as I understand it, glider pilots are regulated by the BGA and are unlicensed - but here in Canada (as in most other ICAO countries) a glider pilot has to sit a written examination to qualify for a pilot's license. Air law is definitely part of the examination, including the minimum vertical and horizontal separations from clouds.

The above being said, it is a fact of life that very few aircraft are equipped with extended yardsticks that allow pilots to accurately gauge how far away they are from clouds. Human nature being what it is, not infrequently pilots are inclined to overestimate the distances involved. That's not an excuse, but it is the reality.

MLS-12D

P.S. In Canadian uncontrolled airspace, the minimum distances from cloud for VFR traffic above 1000' agl are 2000' horizontally and 500' vertically. Sounds like your restrictions are more onerous than ours (no Finals Three Greens, I am not saying that this is necessarily bad; just different).

P.P.S. As I recall (???), cloud thermalling is (or used to be?) legal in the UK, although it is not in North America. Can someone from the BGA shed any light on this?

[chrisN]

Gliders are not required to stay VFR in the UK in class G airspace. They are "somehow exempt". Most also know the rules quite well, before going solo.

They also have to pass air law exams (among others) before going cross country, when flying from BGA clubs.

As gliding flight is always either descending or ascending (with some rare exceptions) the quadrantal rules are inapplicable.

[fockewulf]

From my experience all glider pilot know the rules of 1500m Horizontally, and 1000 feet vertically above 3000' AMSL or 1000' AGL whichever is the higher. It is certainly part of the oral examination here in Aust. However realistically most glider pilot get alot closer than that, however all (unless idiotic) do not actually get into cloud. On somedays with low cloudbase you would be able to do little else if you maintained a perfect 1000' from cloud. Although technically against the rules, its arguable as to whether it is dangerous provided certain precautions are taken, the key one being a good look out and listen on radio for powered traffic. If it a day with complete overcast more distance would be desirable as compared to a day with scattered cloud where you'd be able to see the traffic inbetween clouds. Also avoiding NDB let down area's in cloud.

To be honest has this ever actually caused great distress for you? or caused a near miss? If not then why the bitchy attitude?

[Keef]

I always thought gliders in the UK used clouds for lift to get to those fine altitudes that they achieve - and that they soared in clouds.

I know that in the USA there's a glider pilot's licence - not sure if that allows them to fly in cloud, or if they need an IR to do that. (I suppose I could look it up!)

[fockewulf]

Cloud flying with gliders, is I belive legal in Europe, however is most illegal here in Australia.

[WestWind1950]

In Germany all glider pilots must pass a complete exam of all the rules just as a motorised pilot does, including a medical. It is only legal to do cloud flying if you have the rating for it... it requires special training and is quite restricted.

Gliders are not required to stay VFR in the UK in class G airspace.

I can't really believe that! Here gliders must stay in VMC at all times!

There will allways be idiots that don't stick to the rules and make life difficult for the rest of us. Two summers ago a glider was seen in Class "C" airspace above Frankfurt!! An Airbus just managed to see and avoid him! :mad:

And there will come a day, because of air traffic congestion (and such incidents as above), that they will be required to have a transonder (as soon as the industry manages to put out small, light-weight ones that don't eat up the batterie power).

wishing you all an accident free gliding season in 2004

Westy (also a glider pilot, among single-engine and hot-air balloon ;) )

[chrisN]

WestWind1950 wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gliders are not required to stay VFR in the UK in class G airspace.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't really believe that! Here gliders must stay in VMC at all times!
======================= [unquote]

I don't know why you can't believe what the law is in the UK. Gliders can and do fly in cloud in class G (not A, B, C , D, E, or F if there were any).

In practice I don't think many do - I am one of the few I know who do - modern gliders are less suited to it than older ones. Gliders can and do commonly go up to cloudbase, however, and as I said before it is not forbidden and therefore is permitted.

I am told that it is legal also in several European countries, though not in France and maybe some others.

As it rarely causes problems, I too can't see any reason for people to get excited about it.

[Dan Winterland]

I think there is some confusion netween VMC and IMC comparing them to VFR and IFR. There is nothing to stop a glider pilot flying IMC in class G airspace in the UK. What he/she can't do is fly IFR.

I took my Bronze exam in 1980 and I remember the question being asked and I was very clear about the IMC rules. I have also soared into and climbed within cumulus clouds more than once and quite legally. In Australia where cloudbases are frequently above 10,000', cloud flying is rarely necessary. But it's a diffrent matter trying to fly a 300km task in the UK with a 3000' base.

For those outside the UK, you may be suprised to find there is no glider pilot's licence and gliders are not registered. The sport is self regulated by the British Gliding Association - a system that works. Unfortunately, this may change due to Euro harminisation and the sport will not be better for it.

[fockewulf]

Cloud flying is not only unessesary in Australia, it is totally illegal. Many gliders here have placards saying Cloud Flying Prohibited, for visiting pilots.

[Kingy]

Am I right in thinking that in the UK gliders can fly VFR in any class of airspace? - Anyone....

Kingy

[shortstripper]

Not exactly Kingy

Radio equipped gliders are allowed to cross class A in VMC if they obtain clearance.

SS

140

Where did you start on gliders? you certainly weren't allowed to even solo before passing an air law exam where I learnt in the early 80's The bronze C exams were not actually much different to the PPL ones exept more emphasis was given to met than in the PPL.

It's been a long time since I flew gliders so I'm fuzzy on the rules. However I do remember on many occassions climbing in in cloud and popping out the side just below controlled airspace which was about FL55 where I mostly flew. On cross countries I very rarely did any cloud climbs as I was too worried I'd lose the plot nav wise.

Thinking logically ... there should be no threat! apart from gliders there should be nothing else in cloud outside controlled airspace above 3000 feet (or below where you are req'd to remain clear) If you fly IFR outside controlled airspace no seperation is provided and therefore flying in cloud would be unwise ... or at least equally as unwise as those "reckless" glider pilots. Over the years I can't think of any occassion where a glider has been hit by another aircraft in cloud ... but I stand to be corrected. What seems to faze most GA pilots is close proximity of other aircraft. You'll find most glider pilots are used to thermalling or ridge soaring close to other gliders and therefore (with some exceptions) aren't to worried about getting close to other craft. Most are very aware of the airspace around them and will usually spot you first and be very aware of where you seem to be going. Unlike a lot of GA who blunder on in a straight line and only scan 180 degrees most gliders only fly in straight lines for limited periods and therefore scan virtually 360 degress all the time.

SS (who looks forward to the day when he can take up soaring again)

Dunno why it's inserted \\ wherever I've added an ' ???

SS

[Spitoon]

Gliders are not required to stay VFR in the UK in class G airspace. They are "somehow exempt". I am puzzled by a lot of the statements in this thread. Maybe someone could explain exactly just what gilders are permitted to do (in UK airspace) that powered aircraft are not. It would be nice to see the bit of the ANO or Rules of the Air that permits it too.

Regards,
Puzzled of the UK

[chrisN]

Spitoon, I can't really reproduce the 60-page "Laws and Rules for Glider Pilots" published by the BGA. The exemptions and differences from power flying are part of the ANO and/or Rules of the Air, in various Acts and Statutory Instruments. As I am not a lawyer I don't profess any specialist knowledge, I just look things up that I have not learned by heart if I need to.

I used the term "somehow exempt" because that is how the original questioner phrased it. The ANO/RotA are where the exemptions are defined, albeit possibly in somewhat elusive terms. Unfortunately, "Laws and Rules" does not always reference the exact clause so I can't easily quote them. I think flying in cloud may be related to privileges of licence and CofA of the airframe, but I could be wrong. Glider pilots do not need licences and gliders do not need CAA CofA hence don't have to do some things that power flyers/planes do.

You can always either buy your own copy of Laws and Rules, or read the ANO/RotA from cover to cover, and quote them to show your own erudition in future!

Shortstripper, your experience in the 1980's that air law exams had to be passed before going solo in gliders was not typical. Formal exams have to be passed for Bronze, not solo. It is the practice to ensure that certain rules of the air are known before solo - e.g. rights of way for conflicting traffic etc., but orally not written.

[Spitoon]

But that's the problem chris, I have looked at the ANO and Rules of the Air and I can't see why gliders are claimed to be 'somehow exempt' from some of the restrictions that are applicable to any aircraft.

[Reichman]

Gliders are not subject to the same rules as powered aircraft in UK. It is perfectly legal for a glider to fly near/in/around cloud in class G airspace without even having a radio. it never did me any harm, honest ;)

I wouldn't worry about it too much anyway 140Cherokee, with the performance of modern sailplanes you've got more chance of being hit from behind :E

Luv, Reichman

[Arclite01]

I believe this all dates from just after WW2 when gliding got going again and the CAA did not want to know about gliders. Agreements were reached with the CAA about VFR and VMC for gliders and these rights seem to have survived until the present day.

Most glider pilots know and respect the limits and there have been few real incidents around them. Many glider pilots climb through cloud to contact waves and soaring conditions above the cloud.

I personally think (prepares for incoming:= ) that this has survived because (CAA) people don't knowhow widespread this practice is and that they don't realise why it's done. However it's only a matter of time before EASA get involved and the associated Grandfather rights disappear faster than cumulus at the end of a good soaring day !!!

BTW - reichmann is probably right, with Gliders that cruise at 130Kts plus they will probably be overtaking you more than getting in your way :p

cheers

Arc

[chrisN]

Spitoon, try the section on licences.

IIRC, the ANO starts with a regulation that an aircraft may not fly, and then lists a series of exemptions, starting with the word "unless" or some such thing.

One lot of clauses specify what a holder of a PPL without additional ratings can do, like fly VFR in VMC but not (IIRC) in IMC. Another exemption is something like "glider pilots are exempt from the above " (i.e. having licences) for glider (unmotorised) flights starting and ending in the UK and not going over boundaries of other countries. Ditto for C of A, which may mean that any limitation on cloud flying, or requirements for equipment, are put on by the manufacturer, and/or by the BGA if it is flown under BGA rules (which again it does not have to be, in the UK - see another thread). I am sure we do not have to have artificial horizons to be legal.

I really haven't time or motivation to do the research myself - I am satisfied that what we do is well known, well understood, and does not result in prosecutions or other problems.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Let's see how much I can remember about glider flying in the US.

First, no medical required, you just have to self certify that you're ok - which is why a lot of ...old people do it ;)

Second, you need a license to fly. You can get private, commercial instructor.

I believe there is an instrument add on rating that's available, but I don't know anyting about it and I think it's pretty rare.

You can fly a glider VFR in class A (as I believe you can any aircraft) though you need a special clearence and they block off a section of the airspace for you (assuming they say yes of course).

As for actually flying in the clouds, you probably dont' get too much as the sunnier the day, the more thermals you get - at least in Texas :ok: I don't know anything about orgraphic lifting

Thermals top out in clouds so you can thermal up to the bases and then sort of get a push around and over the top - works in a 182 as well btw.

[shortstripper]

Yes Chris ...

I think the air law one was a club thing ... but you certainly had to pass all the exams for bronze C. I flew gliders in Germany too where they have licences but no insistance was given to pass any exams before flying, which as a UK non licence holder always puzzled me. So I guess the law regarding gliders in other countries is a bit uncertain too.

Things have certainly changed though as I found out when I went gliding with the flyer list a couple of years ago ... there I was waggleing my fingers for "take up slack" and "all out", to be told ... "Oh we don't do that anymore":rolleyes: I dread to think how the new regs will effect things when (if) they come in.

Some things don't change however, gliding or better still soaring is still a wonderful way to fly and if anybody here hasn't tried it ... they really must! It's like sail boats compared to power boats ... but more so! Nothing ... and I mean nothing! in flying compares to the buzz of setting off cross country knowing that only your skill and a certain amount of luck will decide wether you reach your goal! LONG MAY THE BGA AND FREEDOM OF SELF REGULATED GLIDING IN THE UK SURVIVE OVER TIN POT POLITICS OF EUROLAND!!!

SS

[chrisN]

SS, thanks.

The finger wagging was stopped after somebody (allegedly?) was launched inadvertently while trying to swat a fly in the cockpit! After a national debate, it was agreed that the pilot should not accept the cable until ready to go, and having done so, launching is then at the signal of somebody outside the glider. The pilot still has a veto, of course, by virtue of the release knob.

Not only are there variations in law and techniques/practices between countries; there are some between clubs in the same country. For example, in the UK, it is generally the case that one pulls off an aerotow and turns left. Not at Cambridge, GC, however - they turn right. I am sure that there are other examples.

[astir 8]

Onan

thermals do not stop at cloudbase - cloudbase is where the atmospheric water vapour starts condensing, dumping latent heat of evaporation and hence the upcurrent inside a cumulus cloud is much stronger than the thermal below it which started the cloud forming in the first place.

On the basis of what goes up must come down, the air around the outside edges of a cumulus is likely to be descending

The lift stops inside the cloud at the top, where temperatures have equalised.

Pre and early post-war european glider pilots used to do heroic climbs in cloud (Derek Piggot did 16000 feet in an open cockpit T21 and Peter Scott taught himself instrument flying while achieving Gold Height (3000 metres height gain) in a cloud). The old wooden gliders were very forgiving and had fully speed limiting airbrakes if it all went to worms.

Cloud climbs in the UK are not so common these days because modern glass gliders can go past VNE even with the airbrakes out and their performance means that huge distances can be done without resorting to cloud climbs.

I have no detailed idea of the legalities (or otherwise!) in the UK but the fact is gliders do frequently operate at cloudbase (the sport would be impossible in the UK if they didn't!) in Class G, especially along those lovely things known as cloud streets, so if you are bimbling along in the spamcan, keeping to the VFR rules about vertical separation from cloud is a very good way of avoiding alarming meetings with the non-noisy type of aircraft.

[140cherokee]

astir8,

I'm not concerned about the VFR spamcan driver because, as you point out, he'll be maintaining the correct separation from the clouds. But what about the IFR driver that's in and out of cloud, flying a quadrantal that is more or less at cloudbase, with a RIS from a LARS unit that the glider pilot is not in contact with (and without transponder, is not squawking either)?

[shortstripper]

You have a point 140 ...

but then outside controlled airspace there is no seperation provided. RIS should not be regarded as protection but only as a guide. A responsible IFR pilot would or should not fly IMC without proper cover so the onus is on him/her. There should be no question of the IFR traffic having more "right" to fly IMC outside of controlled airspace than gliders as it is "free" airspace. True, in such circumstances there is a slight risk but as glass G is purely "see and be seen" IFR traffic really should remain VMC to be safe ... shouldn't they? I suppose this is also true of gliders but then such little cloud flying tends to be done these days that it's the risk must be tiny. Should it be banned? I don't think so ... if anything it should be IFR outside controlled airspace that should be ... otherwise the IFR equipped and able aircraft have preferance in ALL airspace to those who just fly for fun.

SS

[140cherokee]

It's not a case of IFR or VFR traffic having more 'rights'. The point is that the IFR pilot is flying by the rules. Unless there's an exemption in the ANO, the glider pilot when flying at an altitude above 3000' is not VFR when within 1500m horizontally or 1000' vertically from cloud, he is IFR also and so should be flying by the same rules. Class G airspace is not "see and be seen". I agree that a RIS has no guarantee of separation, but a RAS is not always forthcoming and the whole purpose of flying quadrantals is to minimise conflict. At the end of the day, rules is rules, and they're there for a reason.

The power pilot will, or course, give way to the glider. But he needs to see him first. Gliders are difficult to see at the best of times, and scudding around near cloudbase surely isn't one of them. Of course, they might be easier to spot if they're a mile away from the nearest cloud or a 1000' below!

[astir 8]

"Class G airspace is not see and be seen"???

Pls clarify

[140cherokee]

If 'see and be seen' is a requirement for class G, how could you conduct a flight in IMC?

[FlyingForFun]

See and be seen is a requirement of flight in VMC - that's true regardless of whether you're VFR or IFR, and regardless of the type of airspace you're in.

The only time that this becomes difficult (ok then - it's always difficult, but it becomes even more difficult) is when one aircraft is flying in a cloud, and another is flying outside the cloud, but very close to it, such that there is only a very short time between the first aircraft exiting the cloud and the two aircraft coliding. This is why a reasonable vertical separation from clouds is required when flying under VFR (with an exemption to allow VFR flight underneath low clouds).

Personally, I wouldn't like to be flying near to, or in, clouds without using some kind of radar service if it's available. Doesn't matter what type of aircraft I'm in, or whether it has an engine or not. But that's just me. And anyway, it's a big sky, and sometimes radar service isn't available.

FFF
-----------

[shortstripper]

What I meant is NO seperation is provided outside controlled airspace ... RIS is INFORMATION and RAS is ADVISORY and with both it's only between participating IFR traffic ... note NO SEPERATION IS PROVIDED. Therefore flying IFR under IMC conditions in class G airspace will always hold a certain amount of risk. It is up to the IFR pilot to decide if he feels "lucky".

Perhaps one of our ATC members could help clarify this???

SS

[Reichman]

The only time, usually, that a glider would be climbing in cloud (other than in wave and very high) would be in cumulus cloud with quite a lot of instability and lots of vertical extent - hence the lift.

I, for one, wouldn't want to go bimbling through turbulent cumulus in my spam can if I could avoid it (and I can't think of a reason why I couldn't).

As someone mentioned earlier, it's all about risk assessment - and enjoying yourself. Oh, and most glider pilots wear parachutes. So I guess the best bet would be to avoid the "risky" bit of the airspace, or wear a parachute, or in my case fly a 22 ton jet with an ejection seat.

Happy flying.

Reichman :D

[Keef]

I see a hoary old chestnut here again.

I often fly IFR in Class G - when the vis or cloud isn't suitable for VFR. It's not "see and be seen", because you can't see a lot inside a cloud.

But how many accidents have there been (ever) in class G between any two flying machines flying in IFR/IMC?

Hint: you'll be a long time looking to find one.

[Spitoon]

I think the point is less whether you you are likely to meet another aircraft if you fly in IMC but rather is it legal to do so. Now, I'm not that familiar with glider rules, and I haven't had a chance to check the reference that chrisN gave, but for powered aircraft it's quite simple - any aircraft can fly IFR in class G airspace (as long as it's suitably equiped and the pilot is suitably qualified). It's mandatory to do so in IMC (i.e. if the weather is anything other than VMC) and at night (there being no VFR at night in the UK).

[Kingy]

Spitoon,

I'm pretty sure even a basic PPl can fly IFR, what they can't do is fly in IMC.

When flying IFR you are following a set of rules and procedures - it has nothing to do with whether you can see out of the window or not...!

Kingy

[Spitoon]

You are quite correct Kingy - although the suitably equipped and qualified bit is particularly relevant in IMC!!

[chrisN]

As no-one else will be bothered to look up the ANO, I have had a peek and copied out the sections below.

Unless somebody can demonstrate either from these or elsewhere that a glider pilot cannot fly in cloud in class G, it seems to me that the exemptions highlighted * - - - * (my markings) make the point about the difference between a PPL with no other ratings in a powered aircraft, and a glider pilot in a glider.

Chris N.
===============

3 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) an aircraft shall not fly in or over the United Kingdom unless
. . . (it then lists exception to the rule that you can't fly, including registration) . . . etc

* (2) (a) A glider may fly unregistered *, and shall be deemed to be registered in the United
Kingdom for the purposes of articles 14, 15, 21 and 43 of this Order, on any flight
which:
(i) begins and ends in the United Kingdom without passing over any other
country, etc

PART III AIRWORTHINESS AND EQUIPMENT OF AIRCRAFT
Certificate of airworthiness to be in force
8 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) an aircraft shall not fly unless there is in force in respect
thereof a certificate of airworthiness duly issued or rendered valid under the law of
the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator, and any
conditions subject to which the certificate was issued or rendered valid are complied
with.
* (2) The foregoing prohibition shall not apply to flights, beginning and ending in the United
Kingdom without passing over any other country, of:
(a) a glider, * if it is not being used for the public transport of passengers or aerial work
other than aerial work which consists of the giving of instruction in flying or the
conducting of flying tests in a glider owned or operated by a flying club of which
the person giving the instruction or conducting the test and the person receiving
the instruction or undergoing the test

PART IV AIRCRAFT CREW AND LICENSING
Composition of crew of aircraft
20 (1) An aircraft shall not fly unless it carries a flight crew of the number and description
required by the law of the country in which it is registered.

Members of flight crew – requirement for licence
21 (1) Subject to the provisions of this article, a person shall not act as a member of the flight
crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom unless he is the holder of an
appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order

* (9) This article shall not require a licence to be held by a person by reason of his acting
as a member of the flight crew of a glider * unless [certain conditions not relevant to this discussion]:

Interpretation
129 (1) In this Order: . . . . .

* 'Glider' means:
(a) a non-power-driven heavier-than-air aircraft, deriving its lift in flight chiefly from
aerodynamic reactions on surfaces which remain fixed under given conditions of
flight; and
(b) a self-sustaining glider;
and a reference in this Order to a glider shall include a reference to a self-sustaining
glider; [ ANO as amended by SI 2003/777]

'Instrument Flight Rules' means Instrument Flight Rules prescribed by the Rules of
the Air;
'Instrument Meteorological Conditions' means weather precluding flight in
compliance with the Visual Flight Rules;

SCHEDULE 8 Articles 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26
Flight Crew of Aircraft – Licences Ratings and Qualifications
PART A – LICENCES
Section 1 – United Kingdom Licences
Minimum age, period of validity, privileges
1 AEROPLANE PILOTS
Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes)
Minimum age – 17 years
No maximum period of validity
Privileges:
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of the licence shall be entitled to fly as pilot in
command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any of the types or classes specified or
otherwise falling within an aircraft rating included in the licence.

(c) He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an
instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command
of such an aeroplane:
(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than
3 km;
(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10
km except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the
purpose of this subparagraph; or
(iii) out of sight of the surface.
(d) He shall not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless his
licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes) or a night qualification (aeroplane).
(e) He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane), fly as
pilot in command or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class A, B or C airspace
in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.
(f) He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an
instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command
or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class D or E airspace in circumstances
which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.

=================================================

[140cherokee]

'Instrument Flight Rules' means Instrument Flight Rules prescribed by the Rules of
the Air;
'Instrument Meteorological Conditions' means weather precluding flight in
compliance with the Visual Flight Rules;

This suggests therefore that flight outside of compliance to VFR (ie. when within 1500m horizontally or 1000' vertically of cloud when above 3000' altitude) is in IMC conditions. Flight in IMC should be conducted according to IFR. I cannot see anything in the above that suggests an exemption for gliders.

I'm not suggesting that gliders are not permitted to fly in or near to clouds. I just can't see how flying round in circles when thermalling (when above 3000' and within 1000' of cloud) is flight in accordance with IFR unless there's an exemption.

[chrisN]

140Cherokee, then I suggest you ask either the CAA or an aviation lawyer how they interpret it so, because they do.

My understanding, though I am not a lawyer, is that the ANO bans flying in general, then lists certain permitted exceptions. The passages I marked show that gliders are exempt from registration and Cof A, and their pilots are exempt from licensing.

Power planes and their pilots are not so exempted, and furthermore the pilots, if having only a PPL with no other ratings, cannot fly in cloud. With IMC or IR they can, in differing degrees.

[bookworm]

I just can't see how flying round in circles when thermalling (when above 3000' and within 1000' of cloud) is flight in accordance with IFR

Isn't it? The quadrantal rule applies only to level flight. Wouldn't the gliders be climbing and descending?

[jgs43]

Try the following extract from Laws and Rules -

In IMC conditions outside controlled airspace above 3,000ft power aircraft can be expected to be flying according to the quadrantal height rule. "then goes on to describe the rule and also refers to flight above FL245"

NOTE - SINCE GLIDERS ARE ALWAYS EITHER CLIMBING OR DESCENDING AND NEVER IN STEADY LEVEL CRUISING FLIGHT, THE "QUADRANTAL RULE" IS IRRELEVANT TO THEM. THERE ARE THERFORE NO SPECIAL RULES FOR IFR FLIGHT BY GLIDERS OUTSIDE CONTROLLED AIRSPACE AT ANY HEIGHT EXCEPT FOR MINIMUM HEIGHT SPECIFIED IN RULE 29 (1000FT MIN ABOVE HIGHEST OBSTACLE WITHIN 5 NM. UNLESS NECESSARY FOR TAKING OF OR LANDING. OR ON A ROUTE NOTIFIED FOR THIS PURPOSE OR FLYING AT AN ALTITUDE NOT EXCEEDING 3,000FT AMSL AND CLEAR OF CLOUD AND IN SIGHT OF THE SURFACE. COLLISION AVOIDANCE IS BY SEE-AND-AVOID AND RANDOM SEPARATION.

Since a Glider Pilot does not require to hold a licence there is no restriction on flying under IMC outwith controlled airspace above 3,000 ft. As stated above a glider cannot comply with the quadrantal rule as it would effectively have to fly in a fixed rectangle as it either gained or lost height.

In class "G" airspace there is no requirement under IFR to have Radio or indeed be incontact with ATC. Separation is Not Provided and the Flight Information Service is only as good as the number of aircraft known to the controller or actually speaking to him/her. This is of course subject to flying at an airspeed below 250 knots.

There is an allocated gliding frequency of 130.4 for cloud flying gliders and there is also a requirement for any glider entering cloud to call on this frequency prior to entry. There are also other rules in repect of permitted methods of entry and proximities to gliding sites but these are irrelevant to this debate.