MATZ Question...

[LowhoursUK]

Hi,

I am a new PPL and want to know what the rules are about flying through MATZ's when there is no controller on frequency. Are you allowed to fly through the zone without clearance and transit the overhead?

Thanks

LH

[FlyingForFun]

You are always allowed to transit through a MATZ (but not the ATZ within the MATZ) without talking to anyone - it's just very strongly recommended that you attempt to contact the controlling frequency first. If you can't get a reply after 3 calls on the controlling frequency, then there is no reason not to transit the MATZ, but you must remain clear of the ATZ.

FFF
----------------

[LowhoursUK]

Thanks FFF - that had really been bugging me!

[Genghis the Engineer]

A couple of things to be aware of..

- Often station flying clubs will operate on the MATZ frequency out of hours.
- Military stations can re-activate flying operations with no notice.
- You may not be the only aircraft in or near the MATZ.

For that reason I'd recommend always staying on the published MATZ frequency during the transit, and make the occasional traffic call (entering, overhead, leaving) as a courtesy to other traffic, and also so that you'll know if the station below you has suddenly started operating again (particularly if you're in the overhead, they may not see you themselves).

G

[stiknruda]

Lo,

The RAF seems to be very much a 9-5 Monday through to Thursday flying club. They also seem to stack earlier on a Friday than when I was in!

Given the above it is not at all uncommon NOT to rx any response from non-LARS stations in the afternoons, at weekends and on PHs.

Do as FFF says and you'll be fine.

It is quite tempting knowing that it is Sunday 0800 not to give them a call but that will be the day when they are launching a 4 ship straight towards you!

Give them a call - they are quite friendly and generally very helpful. If they ignore you or there is no response at least you know that you have done what you should have.

You will often then hear another a/c transmitting his details for your info, if I am in the same bit of sky, I will let him know what I am doing and then will call zone outbound.

Hope that helps, too.


Stik

[LowhoursUK]

Thanks for all your advice! :)

Not so much a MATZ question, but if I am in an area that is covered by London Information and there are several airfields en route - is it better to go non radio and contact each of the airfields in turn or to go with on London Info the whole way?

Differenct instrutors have told me different things...any thoughts?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The other day I was flying around deliberately way above the top of the local MATZs, and not talking to the military controllers (largely because I didn't have to).

However the ATC unit I was talking to called me up, and gave me a squawk for the MATZ, as the military wanted to separate me from some of their traffic (which I saw a couple of minutes later, way below me), and also gave me a "not below ..." instruction. (Instruction?? When receiving a flight information service in the open FIR?? - I must have misheard, they must have been passing on a request from the military, surely. I obeyed it anyway, of course.)

So, seeing as I was flying near and over active MATZs on a weekday, even though I had no intention of penetrating the MATZ, should I have been less lazy and talked to them anyway? What do you do?

[FlyingForFun]

Lo,

First of all, a LARS frequency will generally be better than London Information. London are great when there is no LARS coverage, and also for certain specific situations such as crossing the Channel, but since they don't have any radar they are quite limited in what they can do for you in many cases.

That aside, the answer to your new question is "it depends". How high are you? How close to the airfields? Do they have ATC, or just A/G? How busy are they?

Remember that you can not enter an ATZ without obtaining enough information to do so safely. In practice, what this generally means is that you need permission at a controlled airfield, or radio contact at an uncontrolled airfield.

If you're staying outside the ATZ, then it's more complex. If you're more than about 2500' above airfield elevation, directly above the airfield, then the airfield's traffic will most likely be below you, and there's no need to contact them. If you're 3 miles from the airfield, technically outside their ATZ but on a common entry/exit lane, then it's worth giving them a call - even if you're up at around 2500' above the airfield, since joining and leaving traffic could well be climbing/descending through that height. Basically, if you use a bit of common sense you probably won't go wrong. Local knowledge helps, too, so ask instructors at your school about your own local area, and when you're going outside the area, ask on PPRuNe if in doubt.

FFF
-----------

[Chilli Monster]

LowhoursUK but if I am in an area that is covered by London Information and there are several airfields en route - is it better to go non radio and contact each of the airfields in turn or to go with on London Info the whole way?
There seems to be this supposition that London Info is the be all and end all of ATC services - and if your instructor is teaching you to talk to them instead of an airfield close to your route then I have to ask the question - why? Also if you say non-radio it means you won't be talking to anyone ;)

Ask yourself this - who can give you more up to date information about traffic and aeronautial information in a particular area - answer is the airfield. London Info do a great job, don't get me wrong, but it consists of a couple of people sat in front of a map with a radio frequency and a pile of flight strips which they put your details on as you call. They are a valuable service for the reasons I'll state below, but in summer especially they get swamped by thoughhtless useage. A couple of misconceptions that require killing straight away:

1) London information have radar - wrong

2) London information have my flight plan details - wrong

3) London information can give me accurate traffic information - wrong

London information are there for the following reasons (though not by order of priority - the likes of SWANFIS is able to do that).

a) Supplying data pertinent to the safe operation of flights (weather data, NOTAM data, Danger Area activity).

b) Opening of Flight Plans if departure from a non-ATC field or a field which is not able to open the plan for you (but remember - they don't have it, you have to tell them who you filed it with).

c) Obtaining airways joining clearances if joining airways from the FIR and not in contact with an ATC unit who can obtain that clearance for you.

d) Providing a Flight Information and Alerting Service over an area where no other ATC service is available to do it (Cross Channel, Mid Wales and similar).

If you don't fulfill any of the above criteria then you shouldn't really be calling them - because your call could block someone who really does need to use them.

So - who do you call. Simple really - during your planning draw the line on your map, then fly the route in your head. Compare it with the map of uk LARS providers in the AIP/Pooleys/Bottlang. If your flight lies within the coverage then call the relevant LARS unit.

If they're not open then work on the basis that if you're crossing or passing close to an airfield (within 5nm say) with A/G or AFIS below 2500agl then call them. If it's an ATC unit with or without a notified approach (the airfields with the chevron sticking out of them on your 1:500,000 chart) then within 10nm and below 5000ft is a good idea.

Other than that - if you're that worried about having someone to scream help to if you need it then dial up your nearest frequency (which could be London Info) and just monitor it.

Sometimes it can be just as good to say nothing and just enjoy the view - but experience will tell you when those times are :)

[paulo]

For us aeros people, it's nice to hear about other traffic on our home frequency as we're often poling around somewhere close to base. I usually let my home field know when/where/how I'll be playing, so if you dialled up in transit you'd find out about me and vice versa.

As for London information, last time I spoke to them I was sat at their desk in Swanwick. But then again my flying is very one-dimensional, in a very three dimensional kind of way :-)

(Reminds me, must see if I can sort out another visit...)

[englishal]

You can request a MATZ penetration, but remember you do not need permission to enter a MATZ. It is very wise of course, but I would normally

a) Not be so low as I need to 'penetrate' the MATZ unless overlying airspace restricts me ie. fly above it

b) Be receiving a RIS from the unit who controls the MATZ anyway (if possible). If there a are a number of mil airfields en-route then they will normally had you off between each other (ie hand on your details to the next station)

If entering a MATZ on the weekend (ie no response from the unit), when and if you cross the final approach path, use caution in case you meet someone on final for some obscure reason. If the ATZ is also inactive, you can fly through it as well.

I dunno about London Info having Radar data, but I suspect Scottish Info do, otherwise why would they assign me a sqwark and provide RIS? :D

Cheers
EA

[Chilli Monster]

EA
If entering a MATZ on the weekend (ie no response from the unit), when and if you cross the final approach path, use caution in case you meet someone on final for some obscure reason. If the ATZ is also inactive, you can fly through it as well.
It's probably worth putting in at this point that ALL Military ATZ's in the UK are notified as 'H24', therefore there is never a time when they can be deemed 'inactive' unless specifically NOTAM'd as such

Also - yes - Scottish do have radar data as the controllers actually carry out the 'FIS' function as part of the lower sectors duties, unlike London where it's a separate function, staffed by FISO's.

[Rupert S]

LHUK - if you can't get through to anyone on the MATZ frequency it's worth saying that it's worth calling up a LARS if there's one in the area while you're transiting the MATZ just for safety.

[Lowtimer]

When I'm going "oop north" from Sywell or Fowlmere I sometimes don't bother to talk to the RAF MATZ controllers if I'm way above them, say 7 to 10 thousand feet. But I only do that if I'm squawking Mode C, so that they can see that this little blip is a mile over the top of their MATZ.

Anyone floating around East Anglia for the first time should expect the Lakenheath / Mildenhall CMATZ to be a bit "different" from yer average RAF MATZ. For one thing they are much more likely to be working at weekends than an RAF MATZ - in fact Ican only rememberfinding them not there one one occasion. For another, you can expect some high-speed American, and some of the controllers can be under the distinct influence that they own the zone and can give instructions in it. (Some however are exceedingly easy-going and friendly.) However, I do not recommend arguing with them, they usually have a pretty fair reason for what they say, like wake turbulence from the departing C-5, C-131, C-17, KC-135 or other Big Heavy traffic. There is no futrue in being legally in the clear at the cost of getting squashed by a Galaxy. They will also give you a squawk before they engage in any further discussion. I have sometimes found it useful to call up and give my *intentions* rather than make a request, making it clear that I do not want to go through the ATZ. If they have a good reason for thinking that their intentions conflict with mine, e.g. they're just about to launch a trash-hauler, or recover a trio fo Jolly Green Giant choppers round the back of Ely at low level (happens quite a lot) then they advie appropriately and I take notice. Since Sept 11 they are *very* keen on people not entering the ATZ for either airfield, and I am happy to oblige, it is easy to weave clear even if teh cloudbase is keeping me low.

[stiknruda]

Further to Lowtimer's pertinent comments:

my strip is sufficiently close to the eastern boundary of Lakenheath that any trips to the west or s west generally means that I enter their MATZ.

Given their propensity for responding to any initial call, with,

"Golf Bravo Kilo Xray Xray, squawk 4312 and IDENT"

I generally make it implicit in my initial call that I do not carry a parrot in either of my aircraft:-

Lakenheath, G-STIK - negative transponder, Good morning"

Avoidance of lakenheath and Mildenhall ATZ's is almost mandatory, they don't seem to care too much these days about Honington.

Weaving one's way VFR betwen Lakenheath ATZ and D208 is really quite easy if one follows appropriate ground features; the A11, the Thetford chimney and the rail line/river north of the zone.


They are generally closed after 1700hrs on weekends unless there is something BIG on.


Stik

[IO540]

Good reply by Chilli Monster regarding London Info versus whatever. Most pilots come to the same conclusion eventually. But it makes me wonder why on earth do instructors make students religiously call London Info with ETA figures etc.

As far as traffic info goes, London Info is practically useless. When I fly in that area, I keep a listening watch on it (in case I have to make a mayday call) but I don't talk to them.

The problem is that one has to keep a lookout anyway, and one can't do it any differently just because somebody has told you there is somebody else in your area. Even with Radar Information, there are many planes (e.g. gliders) which the radar can't see, and many more which have no transponder, or have it switched off, perhaps intentionally. So the argument goes, given that you have to keep a lookout anyway, why increase your workload with a lot of radio calls.

[rodan]

Even with Radar Information, there are many planes (e.g. gliders) which the radar can't see, and many more which have no transponder, or have it switched off, perhaps intentionally.

Well, my radar can certainly see gliders and non-transponders. I don't think there are too many SSR-only units out there, either. Under a radar information service you can expect to be told about both transponding, non-transponding, no mode charlie, whatever (subject to the controller noticing it, and radar coverage of course :) ). On that subject, if you have mode charlie, PLEASE use it. It makes a huge difference, perhaps most of all to London Military who don't have to avoid you with their Nimrod's and AWACS's up at Flight Level Nosebleed when they can see by your mode charlie that you are down in the weeds.

[vintage ATCO]

Even with Radar Information, there are many planes (e.g. gliders) which the radar can't see, and many more which have no transponder, or have it switched off, perhaps intentionally.

You're not believing AOPA, are you? ;) :D :D

[IO540]

rodan

My comment about gliders not being visible to radar were based on flying around Farnborough under an RIS this summer; I reported some gliders which they did not appear to see (say 2500ft amsl). I don't think they can see baloons too well either (but one would not normally fly into one of those :O ) I always use Mode C.

vintage ATCO

Can you elaborate? I know for a fact that many people fly with Mode C switched off intentionally. Could be because they were trained that way (there are a lot of old attitudes going around in GA) or perhaps some do it because they can fly higher without busting CAS... :yuk:

[englishal]

Here's a question for the Glider pilots out there....

Do you fly in the clouds? Reason I ask is that on a recent trip, while receiving RIS, I was popping in and out of IMC at my altitude (layer of fair weather cumulus at about FL50), and the controller informed me of "multiple targets, no height information, probably gliders". This was ok, but as I was in and out of the clag it did concern me a bit. As it happened there was a break in the clouds, and I managed to look down and see gliders well below me, presumably below the cumulus I was flying through.

(Must try gliding sometime, a few of my mates do it and reckon its brilliant fun)

Cheers and merry christmas....
EA:D

[NinjaBill]

Although I would not personally fly a glider in cloud, I do know of a number of glider pilots who would fly into cloud, in the correct conditions, as there is often very strong lift inside of cumlous cloud.

It is highly unlikely that anyone in a glider would fly into Stratacumulous, or any layer cloud however, as there unlikely to be much lift hiding in them

Geoff

[IO540]

Does a glider have a horizon (AI)? I have never flown one but have seen a few and none of them had any sort of gyro reference. I know it is "possible" to keep wings level solely by reference to the compass, but surely not in any turbulence.

[Lowtimer]

A lot of gliders have electric gyro horizons and / or turn indicators. Not so much the basic training types you'll see on the club fleet around most gliding clubs, but a lot of the privately owned ones used for long soaring flights do. You usually switch it on a couple of minutes before you plan on using it, at least you did way back beyond the dawn of time (1980s) , when I was still an active glider pilot.

[Dan Winterland]

A couple of points on MATZ crossings:

1. The controller will ask you to set the Airfield QFE. This is becase the MATZ vertical extent is 3000' above the airfield datum and also that the Military use QFE as a landing datum.

2. Brize Norton and Lyneham do not have MATZs. They are Class D airspace (it says so on your map) so it's no different to crossing an airfield such as Bournemouth. So don't ask for a MATZ crossing - ask to cross their airspace.

[vintage ATCO]

IO540

My obtuse comment referred to a comment by AOPA, reported recently in Pilot mag, where they said that radar coverage in the UK was restricted to the TMAs. Utter rubbish. It was contained in their response to mode S.


VA

[Keef]

Yes, VA - I challenged that with AOPA. Deafening silence since.

[rodan]

Can you elaborate? I know for a fact that many people fly with Mode C switched off intentionally. Could be because they were trained that way (there are a lot of old attitudes going around in GA)

Certainly. If you are flying around outside controlled airspace without mode C on, nobody knows what level you are at. You could be at 500', you could equally well be at FL 240. Your groundspeed can give a rough indication as to how high you might be, but it's just a guess.

Now, along come London Mil working an E-3 AWACS at, say, FL 200. Outside controlled airspace, like you, and a big expensive aeroplane with lots of people on board, so probably under a Radar Advisory Service. Could equally well be a civil unit working an airliner inbound to or outbound from a regional airport outside controlled airspace, the problem is the same.

Say the big jet needs to pass through the same chunk of airspace you are in, in all probability much higher than you, and in reality no danger of a confliction. The controller providing the RAS has to achieve (or do their best to achieve) EITHER 3000' vertical separation based on your mode C or 5 miles horizontal separation. Ideally, the controller would prefer to take 3000' vertical separation above you - however, if your mode C is turned off, the 3000' vertical separation isn't an option, and the controller has to take 5 miles horizontally against you. Effectively, you are wiping out a 10 mile diameter cylinder of airspace centered on your aircraft, from the surface to FL 245, that an aircraft under RAS has to be vectored around. I understand that some transponders are mode A only, but I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would intentionally leave mode C off. It happens a lot though.

or perhaps some do it because they can fly higher without busting CAS...

I would question the sanity of someone who did that. Just because no-one knows thet are doing it, doesn't mean they aren't busting CAS, or heading for a nasty encounter with a 747 for that matter.

Hope that explains what I meant. Clear as mud, probably :)

Edit: Whoops, it wasn't me that you were asking to elaborate. I feel a bit daft now.