CofA / Permit : differences?

[Viggen]

Hi

Can someone explain to me the restrictions which apply if I fly a "permit" aircraft as opposed to one with a full CofA ?

Thx
viggen

[RodgerF]

See this link

http://www.pfa.org.uk/pdf_docs/engineering/information_leaflets/conditions_permit_tofly.pdf

R

[Lowtimer]

There are PFA permits for homebuilts and CAA permits for ex-military types, and there may be slightly different terms, I'm not sure.

The sort of restrictions that apply, on either kind of permit... e.g.
- Mustn't ply for hire or reward
- Daytime VMC flight only
- No overflight of settlements
- No flight outside UK airspace without advance permission of the foreign airspace owner
- No instruction except to a part-owner of the aeroplane (ownership limited to a maximum 20 people)

I gather there has been some discussion lately about variations which might allow high performance ex-mil types on CAA Permits (e.g. Hunters) to fly IFR - this seems like a Good Idea providing they are suitably equipped as it would save them zooming around at high speed and low level at 2,000 feet with the rest of the PA-28 / Cessna community, they would be able to punch up thr cloud and fly on top at a respectable altitude with the rest of the pressurised jet traffic. But I don't know how far any such discussion has got, or whether it's just an idea at the moment.

[Genghis the Engineer]

- Not over built up areas, unless taking off or landing at a government or licensed aerodrome
- Day VMC only.
- No instruction for issue of a license or rating unless you are sole owner (Lowtimer is incorrect).

Otherwise I agree with what others have posted above.

G

[Lowtimer]

Hi Genghis,

take your point about "for the purpose of a rating or licence". Actually that wasn't the case I had been thinking about, my mind was on, e.g., differences training, aerobatic tuition, formation training etc. Do you know if "part owner" applies in those cases, or are they also "sole owner only"?

[bar shaker]

That would explain why the JP syndicates state no charge for conversion training.

[Kingy]

Genghis

- No instruction for issue of a license or rating unless you are sole owner

Or a member of the sole owner's immediate family I believe.

For completeness

Kingy

[ACX]

Hi guys

A Permit to Fly does not directly stop you training on your aircraft. What normally stops you is that the aircraft can not be operated for Public or Aerial work.

The ANO (Article 130) allows a sole owner to pay for the services of a pilot and to remain a private flight. This does not aplly to group ownership. However if you are in a group and have a tame instructor, who does not want paying, then the flight would still remain private and thus allowed.

When you get to the larger aircraft, over 2730Kg, there is an AIC that allows owners/group members to obtain a CAA permission to pay for training in these aircraft.

ACX

[Rod1]

>>No flight outside UK airspace without advance permission of the foreign airspace owner.

This is technically true. However the PFA have reciprocal rights with most of Europe, so in practice you will have very few problems.

Rod1

[Genghis the Engineer]

Kingy - that comes under "current interpretation" rather than the letter of the law, but I agree.

Lowtime - I don't think it's a problem. The PFA has a system "the coaching scheme" for converting pilots to it's fleet, and a good thing too.

There's an ECAC (European Civil Aviation Conference) agreement for overflight of amateur built aircraft across Europe (which is most permit aircraft), but it's best to check in each individual case. Ken Cragie at PFA is I think the guru on this.

G