Owning and operating a N-reg aircraft in UK?

[Tiddles]

I know that there are already some threads on this subject, but I would welcome a current view on the 'pros & cons' of owning and operating a N-reg aircraft based in the UK. The aircraft will be used for long distance touring around Europe.

I know that you need to register the aircraft with a Trust - but who is the legal owner and how do you protect your investment?

Do you need a FAA licence to fly the aircraft in Europe. I have been told that you can fly the aircraft around Europe on a CAA PPL and there is no need for the FAA equivalent?

Recognising that it is possible to do the FAA IR here in the UK. Does anyone know what the training course involves (i.e. number of hours etc) and any recommended instructors/schools here in UK? Does my IMC rating count towards the FAA IR rating?

Many thanks for any guidance given.

:ok:

[2Donkeys]

Benefits of N ownership relate to slightly cheaper insurance (no Premium Tax), and slightly cheaper maintenance (no star annual, and no Notice 75).

Disadvantages are in the form of trust fees and convoluted ownership structure.

Net-net, it is probably only worth it on more complex singles and twins. Not something to worry about on a C152.

To fly an N outside the UK is not possible on your UK-issued JAR licence. The FARs specifically require an FAA licence.

Instruction towards your IMC rating does count as approved instructional time towards your FAA IR. IMC experience counts similarly.

2D

[IO540]

Tiddles

I am working towards the same thing; this is what I know.

The trust is the legal owner. They could run off with it; so the proper setups have professional liability insurance which would pay out to you.

According to ICAO, you need "two out of three":

country of aircraft reg
country of LICENSE issue
country of airspace

So you can fly an N-reg on a CAA/JAR license in the UK, or in the USA (2 out of 3 satisfied).

However I UNDERSTAND that the CAA automatically validates FAA licenses in which case you can fly it anywhere (day/VMC). I have not found anyone who will confirm/deny this. It is probably possible anyway if you get specific permission from the other country (e.g. France).

But the above is for a LICENSE. A RATING is a different thing and its country of issue must match the country of aircraft reg if you want to use it. So you need an FAA IR, which means you need an FAA PPL also (or a piggyback FAA PPL). This is why one has the N-reg + FAA PPL/IR business.

You can do the whole FAA PPL/IR in the UK but they have to bring the examiner from the USA; usually he does a batch of students in one go.

Regarding usage, you don't get the "PPL cost sharing" feature (that's CAA/G-reg only). I don't know what the rules are for cost sharing.

Renting an N-reg requires a document called a "dry lease" - true even if you are renting it to yourself (typical scenario for a ltd co. owned aircraft).

ALL your instrument training hours (with an instructor) do count towards the FAA IR instrument time. There may be restrictions, e.g. if you spend 40 hours just doing NDB holds then only some of those will count :O

There are maintenance benefits; only annuals and you can do your own maintenance in between. You can buy parts mail order from the USA, with less paperwork than for a G-reg. You can fit various useful FAA STC'd parts which the CAA has not approved.

There are constant rumours (never supported by any evidence) that the FAA will stop non-resident N-reg, and/or that the CAA will stop resident N-reg. The French DGAC is certainly considering limiting their resident N-reg planes to 6 months - same as the FAA does for non-N-reg already, apparently - and if the CAA did the same it would clobber you. If at that point you had any non-JAR-145-CofC/form8130 parts fitted those would have to be replaced (possibly at massive cost) before you could go on a Public Transport CofA G-reg, though you could probably go onto a Private Cat CofA G-reg OK. So you do need to watch what parts you fit, and bear in mind the cost of changing them if the FAA/CAA were to shaft you in this way and you had to go back to G-reg. The CAA is self-financing and certainly hates the loss of CofA revenue - I am sure many of the rumours come from their employees.

However other countries could set up alternative registries - it would be a very lucrative business.

Most serious PPL/IR pilots who fly abroad are either already N-reg or are moving towards it, and all those I know say N-reg is great.

[2Donkeys]

Despite being oft-quoted, the so-called "Two out of Three rule" is no more than a useful guideline, but leads to a number of incorrect conclusions.

A CAA licence holder cannot fly an N reg aircraft other than in the UK. Even in the US, the CAA holder must hold an FAA licence (albeit based on the UK ticket).

However I UNDERSTAND that the CAA automatically validates FAA licenses in which case you can fly it anywhere (day/VMC). I have not found anyone who will confirm/deny this. It is probably possible anyway if you get specific permission from the other country (e.g. France).

Off at a tangent here. This relates to pilots with FAA licences, flying G-reg aircraft. It has nowt to do with N reg aircraft.

2D

[englishal]

An FAA certificate issued on the basis of the CAA certificate will get rid of the flying abroard problems. The same examiner who comes over to test students every couple of months can issue you one. I suggest you contact someone who deals with the examiner (take a look at www.acflyers.co.uk who also do instrument training).

Benefits:
You can exercise the privileges of any US rating you have, which tend to be cheaper, easier to maintain, and never expire. Medical requirements are less stringent, and the certificates last longer. They are readily available in the UK. CofA never expires so long as maintenace routines are kept up, in your case I assume you would just need an Annual (plus txpdr / static every couple of years). No insurance premium tax.

Cons:
Owned by a trust, so make sure you select the trust carefully.

Instrument time counts. You need 15 hrs with an FAA CFII, 3 of which in the last 60 days prior to your test

Cheers
EA

[2Donkeys]

Worth noting that in addition to the 15 hours that EA mentions, there is a total requirement of 40 hours actual or simulated instrument time, in addition to an IFR X-country requirement. This too can be met under the auspices of your IMC rating.

2D

[andrewc]

There are a number of pro's and con's with running an N-reg
aircraft in the UK.

Pros

- It can be the only way that you get access to some
aircraft types without huge and unjustified CAA type approval
charges. For example the aircraft I operate, a Cirrus SR-22, which
does not have G-reg approval - I've had quotes of £20K engineering work
and having to strip out the whole-body parachute, which
is completely unacceptable.

- An N-reg IFR capable plane flown with an American IR rating gives
Europe wide instrument flight access.

- Somewhat more relaxed maintenance schedules

Cons

- Cannot be used for UK ab-initio training

- Need a trust ownership mechanism...I had quotes from £1000-£300
per year for this and use Southern Aircraft Consultancy
who in my experience have been very efficient in keeping the
documentation straight.

- Need an additional FAA ticket to fly outside the UK

In practise I've found operating my aircraft reasonably
trouble free over the past two years.

-- Andrew

[Tiddles]

To all the above, many thanks for a series of excellent and comprehensive replies. I feel much better about going in to the N-reg scene.

Rgds

[IO540]

andrewc

The CAA wanted you to strip out the parachute? What kind of a sick joke is that?? Anyone looking for evidence that the CAA is largely a job creation scheme (selling bits of paper with rubber stamps on them for nice fees) does not need to look very far when this sort of thing happens......

It's no wonder we train in old junk, and 99% of us fly old junk. Being at the top of the CAA GA department must be like on the bridge of the Titanic.

[Flyboy-F33]

One more thing regarding maintenance. The prop doesnt need a notice 75, or even to be overhauled at manufacturers recommended period (5 or 6 years) It is purely on condition, and there are certain situations where that could save you a few ££'s

Obviously the prop is a serious peice of kit and shouldnt be neglected, but as in my case, it was in the popshop for new seals etc only last year, and would be due for overhaul at next annual but has only done 500 hours since new so would be a waste of ultimate prop life if o'hauled to Cof A requirements.

GG

[david viewing]

QUOTE]Being at the top of the CAA GA department must be like on the bridge of the Titanic.[/QUOTE]

I suggest that it's nothing at all like the Titanic. Those people paid a heavy price for their mistake.

BTW, it's commonly supposed that N - reg aircraft have to have 100 Hr checks in place of our 50 Hr. Not so - only an annual and manufacturer's schedule (which may be 100Hrs). They must be falling like leaves over there.