NCA PAS

[The Bishop]

Anyone got any info regarding NCA entering the PAS? :confused:

[MrBernoulli]

What the .... are you talking about? Or are you only expecting replies from folk in the know?

[Yeller_Gait]

I think the party line is that it starts 1 Apr 04, you join the PAS when you reach your 22 year point, and you must remain on the PAS for a minimum of 5 years.

It should be open to all FS and MACR, and initial offers are made at around 18/19 year point.

The rates are the same as Officer PAS, but the max levels you can reach are rank dependant.

[Training Risky]

Mr Bern, if you are, as your location suggests, 'behind enemy lines' I would have thought you would know what NCA and PAS stood for?;)

[Magic Mushroom]

Given that there is a strong likelyhood that the existing kipper fleet will be cut, and that the MRA4 will be cancelled in the forthcoming white paper, I strongly suggest that it is about to become an employers market.

Personally, I really cannot see the NCA PAS seeing the light of day.

Regards,
M2

[circle kay]

By the time of your post MM I expect that you had a little too much pre Christmas cheer. But thanks for your input. The 'we can do everything' E3 spin is always good for a giggle

[Magic Mushroom]

Circle Kay,
Exactly where in my post have I suggested that the E-3D can 'do everything'?!!!

Information regarding the MRA4 is widely held throughout the Service, including people involved in the project. Certainly, I can see absolutely no justification for more than 6 ac. Likewise, a cut in the existing kipper fleet has long been mooted and would, at a stroke, solve the AEOp manning problems.

Based on this info, PMA themselves do not believe that NCA PAS will happen. I hope that they're wrong.
Regards,
M2

[Ginger Beer]

From the recent Air Eng Exec mtg;

The NCA PAS will be set up in Jan 04, for implementation in Apr 04, similiar to the O's this year. Those who are within 3-4 yrs of IPP or past IPP, will automatically be offered PAS if they are FS or MACR and havent PVR'd or been med downgraded etc.

Those who are not yet at 3-4 yrs to IPP will be boarded in the future for suitability for PAS, as per the O's.

The latest word is that the spine will be a different one than the O's.

Unlike the O's, who can forgo military greatness and senior ranks by joining the PAS and getting loadsadosh, the erks will not be forgoing rank or greatness for loadsadosh!

In fact even if the extra dosh would take a MACR from his current max of 45k to the 52k of NCO Pilot on the other spine, 7k gross, minus 40% is not a lot to write home about really?

However, let's not look free money in the mouth. It will mean more dosh and with the proposed new pension deal, it is better however, are we gauranteed to get PAS? What will the spine look like? I bet it won't be like the O's and if O rearcrew (not Nav)are topping out at 53k'ish, do you think we'll get any where near them, don't think so.

I believe that it is a passifying ploy with some merit which will not supply us with a great deal in real terms, watch for the catch of changing your terms of service when you accept PAS!!!!!

Ginger Beer, only Bermudan and in a Dark-n-Stormy.

[BATS]

MM

You are somewhat wide of the mark - you maybe see justification for only 6 ac, but those who actually make decisions have a different view (albeit, for the moment) I suggest you recheck with your sources - the only gauge of what will or will not happen is in MOD.

Seasons Greetings

BATS

[Biggus]

MM

Interesting comment on MRA4/MR2. One of my best mates is in the kipper fleet. They have been spending 3-4 months a year out of the country for the past 3-4 years flying on a variety of operations, details of some of which seem to be trickling out (if only to let the rest of the RAF know what they do!!). They routinely have 6 a/c out of the country at a time.

It seems to me from your comments that either what they are doing is pointless (in which case I am sure they would all like to come home!) or it won't be possible to replace them with 6 MRA4s as you suggest.

Still, I am sure the E-3D fleet will be able to pick up any of the commitments the Nimrod fleet can no longer cover under your cunning plan.

P.S Anyone who has read any of your comments over several months knows you are a strong advocate of the 'E-3D can do everything' approach.

MRA4? The worse thing they did was keep the name Nimrod. What was it supposed to do? I don't know half of it, but if we had some senior officers with imagination almost anything! ASW to destruction (nobody else does), ASuw to destruction, SAR, anti imigration (read your RAF news) land attack (fly 4,000 nms+ without support and put more weapons on target than a 4 ship of Tornados), reconn, etc, etc. A more verstile platform it would be hard to find! If BAe could actually get it to work that is!!

[Spot 4]

I will not sign up to PAS in any circumstance, because I am not prepared to be leg-ironed for another 5 years. It is a cheap way of trying to stabilise the exodus that NCA now have. Statistics can of course tell you want somebody wants you to hear; it is the hidden stats: People approaching terminal engagement that would previously have signed on are now looking forward to new careers. Those stats apparently do not represent any retention problem, and the recent Review farce has achieved little other then to outrage LM who are still underpaid when compared to their Eng/AEOp bretheren.

If any NCA think this is wrong, then look at how much "Acting rank" the SH force need to maintain the "pyramid". Every single sqn except 28. Yet the short sighted fools still only promote a few per year when there are so many suitable. At least one SH sqn has restructered its NCA in admission that vacancies (PICs) simply cannot be filled. This then exagerates the route problem as there are less FS & MACR required.

Or how many front line crews have more than a 1000 hrs total!

It makes me sick....and it is all down to mismanagement by PMA, and above the posters pay scale at that.

To half the AEOp requirement at the stroke of a pen is a typical solution in the 21st century RAF, especially if some of them take up training in the other NCA trades.

I`ll get my coat, and a P45

[MrBernoulli]

Training Risky

Thankyou for your comment above. Now that there are a few more posts here I see what is going on. And, yes, I do go behind enemy lines sometimes. Its just that I'm not very good with abbreviations and acronyms - please forgive me ( ... he says as he backs through the door bowing elaborately).

[Magic Mushroom]

Biggus,
Firstly, yes I am a big proponent of the E-3D. The scope of our operations is huge compared to only 10 years ago, and continues to grow apace. However, I have never claimed that we can 'do everything'!!!! Have I ever suggested that an E-3D can do ASW? No. Have I ever claimed that an E-3D can do ASuW? No. Have I ever claimed that an E-3D can deliver stand off weaponry? No. If you wish to challenge anything that I have written about AWACS (or indeed ISTAR generally) over recent months, please feel free to PM me.

I'm well aware of what ops the Kipper fleet have been on (and continue to do) in recent years, and indeed operated alongside them during both the Afghan ops and TELIC.

Although I felt that their utility during TELIC in the overland role was questionable, they were and remain a valuable commodity in a wide variety of other ops all around the world. I certainly don't think that their role is 'pointless'. Equally however, I know several people on the MR2 fleet who question the value of elements of current MR2 tasking.

As you correctly say, the MRA4 could be an extremely valuable and versatile ac, particularly in the land attack role. God knows I've seen how useful a P-3C with Maverick and SLAM is on many occasions. The key issue however, is whether the whole package can be made to work by BAe (something that I would suggest that they need to do quickly). The project is already high profile for all the wrong reasons. Therefore, when the budget people look at it, it is no good saying 'it can put more weapons on target than 4 x GR4s', for the simple reason that they will say 'well why not use 4 x GR4s then?' Yes it has much potential, but when it is compared with other projects as the axe is sharpened in the coming months, I severely doubt if we will get anything like the 18(?) currently on order.

As BATS says, the only gauge of what the future for the Kipper fleet (both MR2 and MRA4) holds is what the MoD decides over the coming months. I hope that I am wrong, however I cannot see the either fleets surviving in their current or projected guises.

Spot 4 says, it would be a typical fudge to the AEOp manning problems if these shortages were solved by an MR2 fleet reduction. However, it's been done before on other fleets and regrettably I suspect that we're about to see it happen again.

My original posts on this thread were to highlight the potential impact upon the NCA PAS of any white paper cuts. Again, I sincerely hope that you guys get the scheme as I have always felt it very wrong that you guys get a lower fg pay rate than officers. Only time will tell.

Regards,
M2

[Biggus]

MM

Why use an MRA4 rather than a 4 ship of GR4s (+tanker support). Because if you have MRA4s then their attack capability will have been used as an excuse to make reductions to the GR4 fleet. You yourself say you have seen P3s armed with SLAM + Maverick used to good effect. You might as well ask why wasn't the USN using F-18s instead? Why do the USAF use B-52s and B-1s rather than F-15Es?

Will withdraw now to leave this thread to NCA!!!

[Magic Mushroom]

Biggus,
Before I too retire to hopefully let this thread return to its original subject, once again let me stress I am not doubting the utility of the MRA4 if it works!!!! However, I assume that you are not equating the capability of the MRA4 with the B-52 and B-1!!!!

Both of these platforms have considerably more payload than the MRA4 will have, and have the advantage of better altitude options (B-52) or dash speed (B-1) than will be available to the MRA4. Even with the MRA4s gucci DASS, it will not be able to be employed 'over the wire' as freely as the B-52 or B-1 fleets.

Regards,
M2

[The Gorilla]

OK, has any one actually SEEN anything in writing to say that from 01 Apr 04 invited NCA will go onto PAS? Recently that is.

I know that briefings etc are still saying it's going ahead, but then they would wouldn't they? I can remember road shows briefing about the Bett report assuring us that it wouldn't be cherry picked and we all know what happened to that!!

Bottom line, PAS is being introduced because NCA are in short supply and retention is punk. But what if future plans being worked on right now mean that come May 04, NCA are no longer manpower critical?

Do you really believe that the men of honour :O will fulfill their promises?

Enlighten me someone!!
:ok:

And yes I am a cynic ok!!

[The Bishop]

Gorilla, I’m a bit of a cynic too. Get ready for the old baseball bat trick. :mad:

[Ginger Beer]

Colleague of mine (and yours Gorrilla), received an letter a few days ago from Binnsworth, stating that he is going to be boarded for the new NCA PAS.
Mate in question is within 3 yrs of IPP.

[bigbomb]

First, as I understand it so far, the rumors are that only FS and Master aircrew are to be allowed on to the PA spine, what happens to the Sgt at his 22yr point that for whatever reason hasn't been promoted, is he just to be abandoned by the airforce, at the same time though the army allow Sgts on to the PA spine.
Second, I have heard that there are to be rank bars to which a FS cannot pass without being promoted to Master In this case why is this only going to apply to NCA and to no other group or trade. WSO have a trade bar not a rank bar, as does every other trade, the whole point of the PA spine is to de-couple rank from pay, except it seems where our NCO's are concerned.
third, what happens to a FS on reserved rights to Master, since his pay band will be above the max level for a FS on the PA spine.?
Is it any wonder there is such a shortage of NCA when they get treated in such a manner. If the PA spine is good enough for the rest of us, then why not for the NCA (without rank bars and with Sgt's included

[Charlie Luncher]

BB

The idea of the PAS was not to award an enhanced pension to some idle ex bluntie who hasnt put in the work to get promoted :eek:.
It was conceived to keep good dudes in the trades after their 22, when the pull of all that cash and pension often caused them to leave. The candidates are boarded so that those who put the work in get rewarded, not just I've done me time so give me the money, gladly we got rid of time promotion.
As for how it is actually done by our lords and masters will beggar belief as usual, not forgetting the interference from the scribbly world, who believe it is not fair that Aircrew get more money than clerks :eek: .

donning kevlar and stepping back from that baby:E

Charlie sends

[bigbomb]

Charlie Luncher, I didn't mean for a minute that anybody who can't be bothered to get promoted should as a right be given the PA spine.We have many of our trade and our rank, (ie the time promotion F/L at our IPP who have been offered the PA spine) who by using the standards set for the SNCO's would not be on the PA spine themselves. All I think is that we should have a level playing field, if Army sgts are allowed on the PA spine then show should RAF aircrew sgt's.
Why is it OK for ourselves to say " I don't want promotion just give me the spec aircrew pay or the PA spine", however if one of our SNCO's for whatever reason states that he doesn't want promoting everyone wants to condem him. Can't a Sgt just be a professional aviator. This after all, is what the PA spine was about, to reward professional aviators and decouple pay from rank.

[betty_boo_x]

Letter arrived yesterday(although dated mid-December!!) at work and apparentntly, everyone who is elligible will get one (a letter!).
Board sits around same time as promotion bun fight (late Feb) and lots of peeps will be offered PAS.
MAcr+FS at or past their IPP have a big decision before APRIL 1 2004.
Maybe a gotcha for those on "reserved rights" as there is an interesting line suggesting they won`t be invited.
Payscales are yet to be confirmed as the AFPRB ratifies all salaries(all not just this little lot) usually late Feb/early Mar.
There will be some quick thinking required as a statement of intent is required to be SIGNED and on chief scribblies desk by 1/04/04.
Any questions there is a number on the letter and a nice man in Gloucestershire to help - he doesnt have much time as he is busy counting his extra fingers and toes, only joking!!
The peeps concerned say he`s a top bloke and will tell you straight.
:confused: :confused:

[Facingrear]

I have called the guy behind this desk as I knew him as an FO and he assured me that unless you intend to apply for a commission in the future then you have every thing to gain. But still can not understand why the top brass would give you something with one hand and not take it away with the other. 24 yrs of reading the annual pay scales in April have proved that every year. Somebody must have seen something on paper by now of pay scales and new terms and for those of us out of area, its impossible to get any current gen!! Meanwhile....1st April looms closer.

[Anita Bush]

Give your DO a ring - he can give you a good idea what you will be getting if you are interested!!

Anita

[Ginger Beer]

Heard via binnsworth that the PAS scales are in however, whereas we thought all within 1 yr of IPP were automatically going to be offered it, it now seems that it will be a selected few:confused:

Seems that it will be offered depending on how many beans the bean counters can spare, the scales allow a slightly enhanced salary for rank/years in service (gross of course).

GB

[The Gorilla]

Those of us who are cynical fear that the number of Air Eng's who will be amongst the selected few will be <=0.

I would love some one to prove me wrong if they get offered it!!

:ok:

[Yeller_Gait]

Has anyone thought about the implications of signing onto PAS, and more importantly, the new pension scheme? It seems to me that once you commit to PAS and the new pension scheme, you are committing yourself to staying to 55, and the only route out will involve loss of pension etc till age 60.

This could be a licence for PMA to post people to places that they might not really want to go to, and you will no longer have the option of voting with your feet/PVR, which many are currently using, as a way of staying where they want to.

Has anyone actually seen the new PAS levels, or is it the same scale as for officers, but with the lower bars for FS and MACR?

[Stan Bydike]

Yeller.

Officers had the same problem when they had PAS introduced in that you didn't get to see the PAS rates until the annual "Pay Rise" had been announced.

Thus allowing little time to make up your mind whether to sign on the dotted.

[Ginger Beer]

Why does the NCA PAS, which will hit the streets next week, have rank/pay bars?

It is confirmed as the same spine as the O's however, once they're on it they continue up the food chain regardless of rank. We are going to be pegged at level 12 for any Sgts' who sneak on, 16 for FSs and 20 for MACR.

Equal Opportunities case me thinks?

GB

[Yeller_Gait]

GB,

I think you will find that officers on PAS do have bars, but it is trade dependant rather than rank dependant. For example AEO's can not progress as high as a Nav, who in turn cannot progress as high as a pilot. Also, it is only available to F/L and S/L ranks.

[Ginger Beer]

Agreed Y G,

They can however, continue to be promoted, in theory anyway, up to W/C + ? I don't know of anyone who could be bothered with the extra work if it wasn't going to bring extra financial rewards though.

As an FE, I probably wouldn't want trade bars as the AEOp and Linguists seem to be the struggling to recruit/retain bunch???? I stand to be corrected on that one though.

The point was that after accepting PAS and forgoing any promotions the O's are still enjoying enhanced pay without having to get promoted to increase ones earnings, thereby becoming professional aviators rather than career O's.

So, if we are becoming professional aviators too, why do we also need to continue a career push in order to increase our earnings??

GB

[bigbomb]

GB does have a valid point, the PA spine was introduced to de-couple pay from rank, this it does with all trades except NCA where rank bars have been introduced. A F/L and S/L in the same trade can both progress to the highest pay band for that trade. Why will this not be the case for Sgt / FS / MAEOp NCA? Is this just another case of our NCA being treated like dirt.

[Ginger Beer]

Cheers bigbomb,

Just trying to keep this thread hi on the forum and look forward to more inputs as this weeks selection board carries on.

GB

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

BB,
'course it is fella:ok: Would you expect anything else:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Throttle Pusher]

With regards to the pension issue, I have seen nothing that suggests signing up to the PA spine involves switching to a new pension scheme or loosing your rights to an immediate pension. Has anyone seen anything in writing that says you do?

[Yeller_Gait]

TP,

There is no link between the new pension scheme and PAS, however to get maximum benefit of PAS and the new pension scheme, you need to commit yourself to age 55.

I believe that currently serving personnel will be given a one-time opportunity to take the new pension terms, or retain reserved rights to the current pension scheme, decision to be made before Apr 07 I think.

I am not sure how you stand if offered promotion, whether you need to accept new pension scheme, as you do the new terms of service.

[Stan Bydike]

YG,

Ref the pension, as far as I know you are correct. Could be an interesting decision. It seems that, if you are already committed to serving to 55 that the new pension may be a good deal based on the final salary concept.

However, if you have not yet reached your 38/16 or 22 year points and are not committed to serve to 55 it looks like one to avoid.

[Spur Lash]

If you stay untill 55, it is a good move; however....

Accepting PAS will involve new TOS. (I'm thinking revised public sector pension regulations, which may well have an effect)

If you are promoted; say, from Sgt to FS, you will not have a pay rise.

A change in pay scale from low band to high band (airborne pigs etc..) will not involve moving across from, say, level 4 low, to level 4 high; but to the similar amount of cash you are on at the moment. As Black Adder would say: ******.

If you leave before 55 due to: PVR; illness; change in personal circumstances; you will revert to Pay 2000 rates. (I believe). You may also find that an immediate pension is not payable until (assuming:-) )you reach 60. If you can guarantee the next 15 or whatever years to be trouble free, do it!

There is also the rider of doing 5 years before qualifying for the gucci cash benefit. Bailing out after that, I do not know.

[Ginger Beer]

Here's another Q,

As you approach IPP and the prospect of PAS @ IPP+1 day,

What will happen to the high rate of flying pay which we have been looking forward to?

Will they put you on PAS at your last day of 22 yrs or wait until you have had the high rate added and therefore move you onto PAS at that higher level????????????

I thunk I already know the answer to this one:sad:

GB

[Yeller_Gait]

GB,

I am just trying to work out if it is possible to accept re-engagement to 55, reach your IPP, then get onto the PAS board. That way you would get the FP increase before going onto PAS.

Perhaps ensuring that you do not meet the PAS eligibility criteria for boarding until you have passed your IPP is the way ahead?

Just a couple of ideas.

[Ginger Beer]

Mate of mine who is in the bracket, received his pack-up yesterday.

Nothing particularly new for the thread, all those at IPP or beyond @ Apr 05 with at least 5 yrs to go, will be boarded for selectability this week and the next batch will be done in June 04 for Apr 06 lot.

Answers out within a couple of weeks we are told. Most should be eligible, even a few of the professional Sgts' if they're good eggs?

GB

[bigbomb]

Just seen one of the letters today, reading through the letter it states on 2 occassions that the PAS de couples pay from rank SO WHY ARE THERE RANK BARS FOR NCA??????
As far as I can see this is blatant discrimination. All other Professional aircrew are allowed to progress up the PAS to their trade bar, NCA are the only trade where this can't happen, WHY?

Any FS on reserved rights and not at the top of the Maeop pay scale if offered PAS this year could end up £3000 out of pocket per year. Assuming he is on pay band 4, he would have 3 more incremental pay rises, but if he acepts PAS now his pay will stop incrementing(except for AFPRB increases) since his pay is above that allowed for a FS on PAS.

Thank god the rest of the Professional Aircrew don't get treated the way you guys and gals do.

I heard that the Aircrew by 2015 are really only going to consist of Pilots and NCA plus about 100 rear crew officers, if this is true Pilots and NCA should be getting the best deal. I dont see how this PAS for NCA could be described as anything but poor when compaired to other aircrew branches throughout the 3 services.

[Ginger Beer]

Further to my Q ref Hi rate of fly pay and NCA PAS:

From Binnsworth Desk O; you WILL have the high rate of fly pay added and then move onto the PAS however, that doesn't answer Big Bombs' concerns?

GB

[DP Harvey]

Hi Guys,

I've just got back from Out of Area and found a letter from PMA about NCA integration on the PAS, gathering dust in my tray.

Seems like a good deal in the long term, but I have a couple of questions, that I know can be answered over the phone by our man at Innsworth but I also know he is very busy doing more important things:

1. Is there any known reason why a regular MACR with no intention to leave before his NRD, should not go for this?

2. How do I make the "Statement of Election" mentioned in the letter? Phone call to PMA, memo to my Boss, full formal letter to the staish? Or is there a form from SHQ, which I was supposed to know about when I read the letter? :confused:

[betty_boo_x]

Dear DP,
like you my letter was waiting next to the snottograms about overdue fitness tests,medicals,loaned basketballs and free dinners I missed. As far as I can see(and I've looked quite hard) there is no downside for someone like yourself (MAcr and intends to stay to 55).
Apparently the statement of intent will be included in the "formal offer" after pay rates are ratified next week. Board has already sat and those chosen should be info'd soonest.
The bloke at Binnsworth is a truly top man and will tell you straight either on the phone or by electric mail.
The case for FS and Sgt and reserved rights peeps is less clear cut.
Hope this helps,waiting for fig's next week.:uhoh:

[DP Harvey]

The AFPRB Report was released today. A MACR at the highest Pay Level receiving Top Rate Flying Pay will move to Level 14 on the PAS scale if assimilated, with another 6 annual increments up to Level 20 to come.

Ex Level 7 MACR younger (less old?) than 48 will obviously standstill at Level 20 in 7 year's time.

Also good to see that they fully endorse the 17 year FRI for the boys wanting a full career.

[Facingrear]

Letters for selected guys left Innsworth on Friday so should be hitting your in tray Tuesday-ish. What I still can not get to grips with is, as of Apr 03, we were all NCA, brevets disbanded etc. However the FS & MACR ALM branch have continued to be payed on the low pay band, a subject which has been visited many times over the past few years here on Prune. We were assured that this would be addressed and rightly corrected, but now as these letters of offer arrive this week, and we try to calculate at what pay level we will enter in at, it will be obviously way further down than our fellow NCA on the kipper fleet. Therefore, the injustice has as far as the airforce is concerned, has been put to bed. As we have been told, this is a once only offer, so the level entered maps out your pay progression until age 55.

[DP Harvey]

Facingrear,

My apologies to you and the other FS/MACR loadies still on the lower pay scale while I went on about the higher pay scale transfer. But, in all honesy I thought you guys had been brought into line with the other WSOps. My understanding is that we are all WSOps with our current specialization in parentheses following the WSOP title. Supposedly I am a WSOP(E) and you are a WSOP(L) if you didn't know, but we may continue to wear our old brevets. One day, in the theoretical future, a WSOp(E) could go back to Cranwell and come away as a WSOp(EW) or a WSOp(L), without changing his rank. Clearly, a FS eng, not old enough to be on the PAS isn't interested in becoming a loadie if his pay drops or stands still.

This is a very serious issue, especially for those concerned, now, but also for the younger engs hoping to transfer to the loadie empire in th future.

What to do about it? Firstly, ask your ALM leader to speak to the appropriate person at PMA (our desk officer is not the appropriate person relating to pay matters, but he might know someone who is). Once your leader has the current situation, as a fact, and if you're not happy with it, he can then take this further through your command chain, but it must be done in writing to force answers from the higher-ups. Phone calls are not recorded and do not force answers. If that fails, an open letter in the RAF News will always force an answer from PMA. The ultimate answer from PMA will then dictate if you have a case for action under QRs regarding unfair treatment.

[Tiger_mate]

This one is in my "Sue the Air Force one day" file as I believe that there is a STRONG case to answer, including back pay to the day that my trade ceased to be.

Go into any recruiting office and ask how much WSOp employed on the truckie fleet - SH - SAR get paid, and there is no disparity between those jobs and the kipper - Eng boys.

Makes my blood boil:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Ginger Beer]

The reason for the later than advertsied sending out of offers is that;

There was a late imposed QUOTA for the NCA PAS, this is straight from binnsworth and we have yet to realise how many of us the bean counters are letting through.

They just can't stop moving the goal posts, can they:mad:

Funny Ol'thing:hmm:

GB

[Facingrear]

DP Harvey...

Thanks for advice, have followed that line and been told that it is a matter to take up with trade sponser. As we know, the injustification can not be rectified in the time scale that we are talking about here. Still can not understand why our previous rank and branch should have a bearing on what is basically a complete new terms of service, and therefore we should all be starting off on the same level playing field. In 2 years time, I could be stood in a class room at Cranwell teaching along side a fellow MACR, we could have both served the equal time in the airforce and both now on the PA spine. However, his previous back ground was as an AE from the north and myself, say, a winchman from the south. How can it be fair/legal/just to have a 2K Pa. pay diffrence between these two supposedly valuable assets to the service. This is all as a result of not entering at the same level.

[Biggus]

First of all let me state that what I am about to say is not intended as some sort of 'Officers vs NCOs' rankist comment. However, it is interesting that 'Binnsworth' are offering selected NCA PAS, whereas Officers had to apply (without knowing whether or not it would be granted).

I think the O's PAS was introduced in a bit of a rush, you only had a very limited time span in which you could apply (during the middle of a shooting war!!), and guys were having to make their decision while half the paperwork telling them the fine detail of the scheme was still in the post to them! Hopefully 'Binnsworth' have had a bit more time to get the introduction of PAS for NCA right, but don't count on it guys!!

[Ginger Beer]

More from Binnsworth,

Letters went out yesterday pm to the successful ones however, as there was a late imposed quota by the bean counters the suits are only able to say that the "majority" of those eligible were selected.

That's great but NB, 51% is a majority fellas:ok:

GB

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Things looking up in the J world as it would appear, can't confirm it :ok: , that all those in the bracket have recieved offers:ok:

Will sign mine "PDQ" and get it in the post to the nice man at Binsworth toot sweet!!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[fortytwo]

Got my letter, now what do I do? Accept and throw away my PVR options or accept and then what. Is it good/bad or will I get shafted again? Downbanding taught me one thing, don't trust the baskets!

Feel for the LM trade who have been shafted big time for years! WSOPS unite!

[Judge Rembrandt]

42,
Mate, accept the new deal....... The 5 years is to tie you in to the PAS. If you choose to leave before the 5 year perod you will revert to the terms that you are on now, so it's one of the few 'no-lose' situations. If you stay for the long term it may well be beneficial, depending on the terms of the 2007 pension deals. That is the way we have read it down here at Cranwell. If anybody knows differently, please share it.
Cheers, JR

[Throttle Pusher]

Not 100% certain but there is another possible benefit. If you remain out of PAS and then PVR you go back to middle rate flying pay. If you accept PAS and PVR within 5 years you revert to your old terms of service and remain on high rate flying pay. Ask the question of Binsworth to be certain.
Personally I'll be signing up pronto.