Aircraft Cleaning

[AFT CG]

Do you know of any low cost airline in Europe flying jets in which the pilots have to help to clean the aircraft?

[Tony_EM]

Yup, bmi.

Technically, they don't have to, but I know of many that do.

[Red 69]

Digging their own graves then really, aren't they?

[Silver Tongued Cavalier]

Or just trying to get a ride?!

[B737NG]

Pilots are not obligated to clean but to ensure 25 minutes
turnaround they help the cabin crew to clean the cabin.
If the digg theire own grave ? I dont think so, but they
support theire copmanys policy to cut costs in every corner.
The market calls for low cost and the low cost operator gives
it to the market... The majority of travelers try to get a ticket
as cheap as possible. The result is as seen in USA, Europe,
Australia and south East Asia as well. Who do You like to blame?

NG

[antonovman]

i didn't think LCC cleaned the aircraft on a turnaround
i was on a Ryanair a/c, last flight of the day and the a/c was filthy
dirty tray tables, paper everywhere, seat pockets stuffed with rubbish
it was disgusting

[FlapsOne]

antonovman

Why do you assume it's the same on all LCCs just because you saw it on one?

[Lucky Strike]

I do, it saves time.

Plus, it demonstrates leadership in these days when everyone is equal. If the Captain is prepared to knuckle down and help the crew on a turnround to save time and expedite the day's duty, the crew will (hopefully!) be equally motivated.

But more to the point and probably my biggest motivation for it; it's the only time you get to figure out what's been going on in the cabin. To hear the CC talk amongst themselves about the problems they encountered during the flight; the odd noises they heard, the difficult passenger they had, they smelly oven they noticed....

It doesn't match an open flight deck door policy for exchange of information, but since that's gone it's the next best thing.

Different on a big aircraft with very experienced crew, you need the purser/no 1/crew chief to filter all that out for you, decide what's relevant, deal with the problem and inform you as it all happens. But when the no 1 has been flying for 18 months and the rest of the CC for 6 months, you have to keep more of a handle on the cabin.

[flapsforty]

Not qualified to comment on the desirability of pilots cleaning the cabin so no comment there...... ;)

But very impressed by bat.man's reasoning.
For starters because he realises it's worth his while to know what goes on in the cabin. Secondly for knowing that he won't find out any other way now that we have the Flying Fortress. Thirdly for understanding the difference between 'formal' and 'informal' communication and for knowing that 'how much of a handle' he needs to keep on his CC depends largely on their job-experience. Fourthly because he is willing to lead & motivate by example and there has never been a better way. :ok:

If more pilots had bat.man's understanding of how the interaction between cockpit & cabin crew really works, life would be smoother, safer and more enjoyable on all airlines. Low cost and traditional.

[curmudgeon]

Bat.man's attitude is a perfect example of the difference between leadership and management.

Well done, that .man!

cur

[Amazon man]

I totally agree with Bat.man, as a Captain I can hardly ask the cabin crew to clean the aircraft if I am not prepared to lend a hand myself and to be perfectly honest I actually enjoy helping out.

A. I get out of the cockpit.

B. I get a chance to chat the cabin crew and remember we are part of a team just like the good old days.

C. It encourages good crm and the breaking down of the them and us feeling, especially since Mr Bin Liner has caused all flight deck doors to be locked.

[cat 3a]

In 25 minutes

............refuel
..............walk around
................deal with usual pre flight problems

help with the cleaning

.......................check the wx

not a good idea for many reasons

[tropical wave]

bat.man...I have never read such rubbish

[Lou Scannon]

I only helped on cleaning on very rare occasions; I always felt that the company would use it as an excuse to get rid of yet another cabin crew position or expect it every flight.. But that was long before "fortress flight deck" was introduced into UK ops

I think that Batman has revealed some first rate reasons for getting involved in that sort of way with the cabin crew. Still can't wholly agree with flight deck doing the cleaning but I like the man's thought process.

[curmudgeon]

tropical wave

if you'll forgive my interjection, now that we've had the benefit of your opinion, perhaps you might like to enlighten us with your reasoning behind it, assuming there was some?

cur

[BYOD]

Curmudgeon, the idea wud delight bean counters. Personally idea noble but stupid, cat 3a refers. :O

[JONSV]

If the captain has to go back and muck in on a mere 25 min turnaround to facilitate CRM and learn about all the "funny noises" that cabin crew have heard then it sounds to me like his operator is putting commercial needs above that of safety.

There should always be time and the intercom should always be open for the crew to discuss ANY problems they feel may be present at all times other than those critical stages of flight.

If we are about to depart and the crew have CRM type things to share which are of some perceived importance to anyone, then the flight must be delayed to take account of these concerns. What with shutdown checks, paperwork, walkarounds, system setup and pre-departure checks, a decent departure brief, more paperwork and with all this to be done a couple of minutes before push in order for the ground crew to fully complete their safety checks, I have to wonder how you find the time to do your cleaning AND cross check your co-pilots own checks.

Reports of dirty aircraft with rubbish still in seat back pockets may not be commonplace, but with the crew doing the cleaning themselves and in short periods of time one would be foolish to suggest it doesn't happen several times in an operating day. Such aircraft have NOT been security checked and should not be permitted to depart.

On a minimum 35 minute turnaround my airline will have a team of at least six cleaners do a proper clean and security check while a minimum of four crew make sure that fire extinguishers, oxygen, stowages etc and all other safety eqpt are completely serviceable and secure before depature. How can three (sometimes four) people on a LCC do the same job as these ten and take ten minutes less without cutting corners?

The only additional thing for our lot is catering which involves a quick count, only if we have longer than 35 mins will anyone nip to the shop in the terminal.

I am sure though that my company will be hoping to follow suit with crew doing cleaning in this increasing competition, so rushed turnarounds and cutting corners will no doubt soon be the accepted norm by most people.

[curmudgeon]

I don't for a moment suggest that the Captain should delegate the walk around to a member of the Cabin Crew because he's got the Marigolds on and is in charge of the bog brush.:D Nor do I think that cleaning duties should be in a pilot's job description, or even expected or hoped for.

My point about leadership versus management seems to have been missed by a few. Obviously there are certain things that have to be done by certain people, and in a tight turnaround there will probably be no slack to even do the things that need to be done at a considered pace. However, if there is the time, the fact that a Captain will listen to the crew gossip, respond appropriately and generally be approachable is a very desirable quality.

I'm probably being over sensitive in detecting a hint of 'not in my job description mate, so I'm going to carry on reading the Daily Mirror.' If this is a generally held attitude, it does surprise me a bit.

Flaps referred to the formal and informal communication. Very often the informal communication will make everyone's jobs easier. By encouraging this I am not saying that pilots should be expected to clean the cabin!

cur

[FlapsOne]

All turnrounds are not 25 mins - some are longer.

If you get on blox early AND have time why not help out?

No pilot is EXPECTED to help clean the cabin.

IF there is time, some guys/gals do help.

Normal jobs come first - always - spare time can be used to help.

What's the big debate?

[go_edw]

I usually try and help cleaning the cabin IF possible. The cabin crew spend all day on their feet. Cleaning the cabin gives me a good chance to get my legs going again! There is nothing worse than sitting down all day.

Also it gives the cabin crew the extra min or so to grab a cigarette in during the turn around or a few mins of peace before the rat race begins again!

Also its good opportunity to grab a few papers!
;)

[hobie]

reminds me of a story from Canada??? and an "OutBack" style Aircraft being flown back to base without passengers ..... one of the two pilots went back to sweep up ..... seems the procedure was to sweep mud etc up close to a Doorway and pop the door for a second ...... well I won't go into further detail but the remaining pilot had a very distressing story to tell when he landed alone !!!! ...... its all in an official report somewhere .....

[Sonic Bam]

Some of you people need to get your heads out of you arses and realise you are part of a team that needs to work together. Some of the posts have hit spot on in that IF you have the time then go and work with your TEAM.

I can guess the age and employer of some of the dissenting, "I'm the pilot, I don't do that menial thing" posters. :ooh:

[Nineiron]

Flew on Ryanair this afternoon and passengers were told 'Please take your rubbish with you as we are on a 25minute turnround'
Sounded like a good idea - but it doesn't work on buses or trains either. There are some pax who who forget that the only service they have bought with their ticket money is safe transportation to destination, not for somebody to clear up after them.

[GOBWX]

i agree

at the end of the day if the Capt/Fo help out this will keep CC1/2 happy....

if there happy they wont upset the catering team
who inturn wont upset the dispatcher
who dosent upset load control
who wont bite the head off OPs when they call for times
and because ops are still happy crewing will stay happy
thus ensuring when the crew return they dont get "s'crew'd"

of course this will only ever happen in a perfect world

but we can live in hope;)

WX

[miss d point]

Well what a load of rubbish, "head out of arses" -- "good crm" !

If you want to clean the cabin why not go and have a word with the chief pilot, i'm sure he can arrange this for you, maybe starting as a temp !

Those of you who are advocating this practice are accountants dreams' - maybe you should let the CC negotiate your next pay rise !

[feet dry]

Having worked in a not dissimilar environment, I can categorically state that those captains who were willing (and able) to muck in with the crew for the benefit of the operation were more highly regarded (and hence approachable) than those who did not. It is a simple psychological truth that shared experience brings a team together. The military recognise this, why can certain members of the aviation community not?

To pre-empt those who would wish I wind my neck in, please examine your own relationships with your crew and reflect on the nature of the formal and informal communication you have with them. Leading by example is one of the most effective management techniques, and can result in greater loyalty and motivation.

[N1210]

Tony_EM

bmi is not a Low Cost Airline FACT. bmi baby however is sort of!!