Where is aviation headed??

[scud_runner]

Just curious to what other people think of where aviation is heading. I am starting to wondering whether it is even worth it anymore.

We are seeing wages get driven down and down which has consequences across the industry. With Jetstar taking on below average wages this has to have a impact on guys in regionals and National Jet. How can a Dash 8 captain warrant his pay packet when Jetstar are paying a little bit more for an aircraft that has 6 times the capacity.

In Europe people are buying FO jobs through cadet programs and in Australia we are seeing cadets get regional jobs as well.

So where will it end??? As I see it Airlines are heading closer to GA as we speak. Pilots pay for the priviledge of getting a job then have to doing everything in the job description as well the cleaning, loading and who knows what else??

As I see the pilot of the future will have to:


Pay for his own flying training $40 000

Buy time $$

Pay to put an application to an airline $50
Pay to do skills testing $100
Pay for an endorsement $30 000
Will you have to pay for renewals like in GA??

There was a post recently by the thinking piloy saying how GA is worth taking all crap because when you get in an airline it will be worth it. Some how I don't that will be the case anymore.

I hope I'm wrong !!

:uhoh:

[anti-skid]

Yeah, you're right! However there is only one group of people who can do anything about it :ok:

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

If you are involved in any type of flying Scud you are doing well.

Try telling your story to the eager young aviator that cant get a medical for what ever reason. We have all seen it.

Now are you really doing that badly?

Cheereo Douglas.

[scud_runner]

It's not a question of doing badly it's a question of people having to subsidise a multi million dollar business only to get paid less than the guy refuelling your aircraft!!

[Patriot One]

In my humble opinion...

...what you see happening at the moment is the breaking of the pilot's back. It's the UK Coal Strike of the '00's. Pilot salaries, conditions and productivity are one of (not the only) the traditional industrial constraints commercial airlines have long grown unhappy with. The history-making global aviation downturn of the past 3 years has shattered the industry and airlines lie like the wreckage along the highway between Kuwait City and Iraq.

The growth of low-cost airlines across the world is an absolute consequence of the state of the industry. Low-cost carriers satisfy a market need but they need to shatter every traditional cost constraint. Some do it by compromising on engineering (not accruing reserves), some do it by keeping the management levels thin (great idea unless you get the wrong management), and some do it by taking the costs out of the salaries of the labour force.

It's bad now, but I believe it cant last forever. As the aviation market picks up their will be growth in jobs and what was once a captive work force will become transient, looking for the best deal wherever it may be. And believe me, the cost of turnover will be far more disturbing to the airline (once it understands it), not to mention the safety consequences.

Airlines will, inevitably, realise the value of a loyal work-force. There are a few companies around the world who have realised this value and are perceived as unique. Someday soon it will not be unique but common-place.

In the meantime its important that you all have a single voice, and that you are prepared to trade-off some conditions and increase your productivity (put the pressure back on the management to be more efficient at scheduling and rostering) in return for steady, relevant salaries. If you do this from a point of pro-activity as opposed to threat you can actually achieve a lot.

An airline has an easier time justifying fixed costs than it does variable costs. Allowances, and other constraints create variance and airlines die on variance - it absolutely destroys cashflow.

[Kaptin M]

As the aviation market picks up their (sic) will be growth in jobs...
Well if that isn`t what`s happening NOW, we`re going to be waiting a helluva long time to see it!

"In the meantime its important that you all have a single voice, "...that`s a bit of a joke coming from you, P1 - one who was directly responsible for facilitating the removal of the one strong voice pilots did have! :\
Cry me a river.

[Patriot One]

Kaptin M - did I miss something? How exactly did I do that?

[Gnadenburg]

Douglas McDonnell

You disappoint me! I thought you were an Impulse pilot from impressions of another thread.

The IPG is in a position of strength ( and responsibility ) to preserve and improve piloting conditions.

I may be wrong, but you seem to have resigned yourself to a bent over the barrell attitude of somebody so lucky to be in aviation.

Interest rates increasing may keep a few from taking huge flying loans considering the poor rewards on offer.

[Next Generation]

scud_runner

It's not a question of doing badly it's a question of people having to subsidise a multi million dollar business only to get paid less than the guy refuelling your aircraft!!

I wouldn't want to be the guy refuelling the aircraft, even if he got paid 10 times what I do.

If it's all to sad for you, go find another job, and leave the flying jobs for those who really want to fly.

Here We Go Again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CHAIRMAN]

P1
Can you (or Kaptin M) answer me some simple questions please regarding GA? And I will say here that I agree totally with P1's comments.
As I understand it if your local GA charter/flying school/aero club is a named respondent to the Federal pilot's award then that company has to abide by that award - but if the outfit is not named as a respondent to the award (and bear in ming I'm talking strictly GA here) then that company only has to pay thebasic federal wage (breadline) .
You tell me how any any full time GA company that is a respondent to the award can compete with their opposition without asking from their staff what u suggest?

[Icarus2001]

If an organisation is not a respondent to the award they can be "roped in".

However it is a mute point. Those organisations that are respondents and tell everyone that they "pay the award" probably don't. For example the favourite old chestnut is not paying a minimum of 2 hours flying in a 4 hour duty period for a casual employee. Or 4 hours minimum for an 8 hour duty period.

The really insidious disease is the "contracting" of pilots. Meaning they go to the website and get themselves an ABN then invoice the operator. Usually at a rate well below the award minimum and definately not taking in to account GST, Super, accounting provisions etc. The operator wipes his hands if caught and says "but I contract out the provision of pilots to DirtCheap Aviation". But guess what when the ATO come knocking you had better "contract" to more than one operator otherwise you are considered an employee of the operator. This practise seems pretty widespread and is undermining an already inadequate Federal Award.

[CHAIRMAN]

If you ARE a respondent to the award and wish to protect your workers how can you employ them on a full time basis and still provide a profit to the organisation they work for?

[Patriot One]

Chairman,

Icarus is correct, but their is also the issue of being a respondent to the award, but negotiating individual agreements. In other words "I'm supposed to pay you this, but business is slow at the moment and this is what I'm offering - take it or leave it". Its a hard world in GA.

In answer to the second part"how does a company pay the award and remain profitable?".....this is pretty simple. If you can't be profitable under award conditions then a) the business really isn't viable, or b) attempt to negotiate to a position that is viable.

The issue at the heart of this is those companies that can only compete by cutting out costs in areas that are inappropriate. For example, "we'll cut our pilots salaries back by 20%, and we'll be able to offer fares/services below the competition". This is a poor business formula. If you start from this position things will inevitably fall away as the consequences of the cut take affect. Best position to start from is to benchmark all the costs, confirm their relevance and necessity, and then pair back in obvious areas - i.e. dump the meal service.

Ryanair is a good example. Pilots are well paid, but work hard. The company cuts costs in other areas to compete. Those companies that cut costs in the wrong area usually experience the consequence at some point - ie high turnover.

I know all of that is quite obvious - and I'm not trying to teach you to suck eggs. But it is the point most often lost that viability of a commercial airline business is determined by saying "we can offer our seats for $$$ because our costs are so low", as opposed to "we have to sell our seats for $$$$ if we are to make any money".

There is a subtle difference.

[cunningham]

Every dog has its day, real estate agents, tradesman and sportspeople. Unfortunately we had ours many years ago.

[Kaptin M]

If one were a conspiracy theorist, he might think that the number of new airlines starting up in Oz (and Ansett`s demise), is part of a bigger plan to wrest power from the ACTU/TWU. :uhoh:

[druglord]

It's looking bad because the industry is bad.
Like the US, the advent of the Regional Jet and LCC is responsible for what's about to happen in oz, however when things are good people are gonna be walking out for wage increases like Comair did and now they top out at 100k for an RJ. Same will happen over there. They can't screw you forever

[getmeoutovga]

It such a pity that aviation comprises of so many sad sad sad losers who are 'grateful' for the opportunity to be working for a pittance.

I left this industry about 6 months ago because I was sick of, bewildered and constantly astounded at the majority of pilots who share the opinion that their skills are so worthless that a 'check out chick' deserves to be paid more. Don't dare suggest that a pilot should be paid more- you will be shot down, accused that 'your heart isn't in it', that 'you are ungrateful', can't 'see the big picture'.

In the mean time relationships, families and friendships are being destroyed all for the 'privilege' of working in this god-forsaken industry. I'm glad I got out of this so-called profession (even if it is so far from being conducted professionally that its a joke-shonky owners, shonky pilots, shonky wages, backstabbing, lies, deceit and 30 year old aircraft).

I occasionally browse these forums to see what’s the latest, wether anything has changed, but to my disappointment I consistently find nothing has. There are still a few professionals who think they deserve a reasonable pay, and then there are they majority of try hard wana be pilots who work for free, would sell their grandmother for the privilege and unfortunately will never actually see the 'big picture'

Professional conduct ha ha ha this industry wouldn't even know what that means. I feel sorry for allot of you who have good hearts and good intentions, I feel even more sorry for you who start out like this and are changed by a need to survive in this industry.

People ask me what I used to do, I'm to embarrassed to tell the truth, so I just say I wasted 8 years of my life in a experiment akin to the T.V show 'Survivor'.

Good luck all and Merry Christmas, hopefully one-day things will change, hopefully.

[Poto]

Getmeoutovga,

Nice post, emotive, but nice.
It is hard to keep the dream alive. The one at the beggining was so full of pride for what I was doing.
Was stoked to live in butt f@ck nowhere, break up with my partner, fly sh@t boxes and get paid 1/4 of my former salary. I still dig my current gig but have made some poor decisions and bad calls as a result of reactionary type of behaviour that is influenced by the knife throwers, soul sellers, and generally bad drivers who won't make it on ability.
(Mind you most would if they spent as much effort getting it right as they do sh@tting on people.:hmm: )

Merry Xmas to all out there in the bitter and twisted land of GA:)

[scud_runner]

I fear that the attitude getmeoutofga is talking about is now moving into the airline industry. People who will undercut everyone just to get a gig in something better. For me it's not a quetsion of $$ but the idea & principal behind it. By driving down wages you drive them down across the industry and ultimately screw everybody!! I mean, what will be next?? Guys buying ICUS time in regionals?? (does happen in NZ i'm told)

[Whiskery]

By the tone of some of the above posts, I think a small number of today's pilots are getting soft !

G.A. has always been a tough road, that's why (when you finally get a good aviation job ) you can look back fondly on those days. It may take a year or it could take 10 years (my case !) but you have to keep plugging away. The "check - out - chick" may be getting paid more BUT...............................

I'ld rather be FLYING !

The profession of Pilot is no different to any other career and is subject to the same MARKET FORCES. Have a chat to people in the IT industry at present. Sure, the airline industry is going through some changes at present, and the Richard Bransons and Geoff Dixons are making a meal of it, but things will turn around as supply exceeds demand.

Don't GET OUT - GET EVEN !

Keep the faith:]

[getmeoutovga]

Thanks Whiskery, your comment "I think a small number of today's pilots are getting soft !" proves my point exactly!!

I suppose it all comes down to what price you put on being given the "CHANCE" of making the majors, because it may come as a surprise to a few of you out there but just because you stick it out and do the hard yards you are NOT automatically issued a job with Qantas or Virgin etc.

So therefore you must weigh up wether the 'CHANCE' of a jet job is worth years of pitiful wages, heartache and despair. In my situation after weighing up the pros and cons the decision was an easy one and one I am glad I made. How I pity the many middle age pilots who weren’t 'soft' but stuck it out like real men, did the hard yards and wanted it bad enough, but are now driving **** box cars, renting and have no wife or family (or a wife and family they can't support) because they missed out on that elusive jet job!!
But hey I'm soft and should have wanted it more:p

[Kaptin M]

You're absolutely correct, getmeoutovga, NOT everyone who aspires to airlines is going to make it, for one reason or another - just as not EVERYONE who aspires to being a pilot as a profession is going to get there either, for many and varied reasons - be it monetary, academic, medical, or physical flying ability (it's really no different to being a'bus driver, is it!).

There are PLENTY of other jobs that pay FAR better than a flying one. that carry less responsibility, and lower stress levels.
How many other professionals are subject to 6-monthly stringent medicals, and bi-annual, thorough job competency checks, EVERY YEAR of your working life right through to retirement?

G.A. might be the apprenticeship, or it could be the final destination.

When I was accepted into my first airline job (Ansett), my salary actually decreased by about $3,000 p.a., to the princely sum of $9,500!
Thanks to the fact that ALL pilots in ALL (four) airlines at the time - Ansett, TAA, East-West, and IPEC - were acting as a united group under the AFAP, my conditions improved, year by year, and type by type.
An airline job, in Australia, was WORTH working towards.

Do pilots still feel the same way today? It appears not, reading some of the contributions here.
Over the next 10 years, there will be an increasing demand WORLDWIDE for pilots, as the "baby boomer' generation retires - something like 62% of JAL (Japan Air Lines) pilots will retire within the next 3-4 years! And there is nowhere near that number of up and coming Japanese pilots to replace them. Japanese pilots with only BARE commercial licences and tt of 200-300 hours, are being recruited straight on to jet equipment.
The demand may well exceed supply - under current standards - and so airlines are taking the opportunity now (following the recent SARS-induced downturn) to screw salaries down.

As Whiskery writes, "Don't GET OUT - GET EVEN!".
Look back at the periods of when pilots were rewarded FAIRLY, for the responsibilities they hold, and ask what was different then.
And then DO something about it - as ONE.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well ...

can I just say that I bent over and took it in GA for 8 long years, got so p!ssed off with it I just about got out on numerous occasions but I never quite could bring myself to it ... then earlier this year just when I was starting to feel like I was standing on the brink of financial ruin and thinking it was the end of the great aviation dream, I got the golden phone call.

Now I've just ticked over 6 months in the job, driving a good turboprop, earning what feels like more money than a bull can sh!t, bought my first ever decent house and a nice car, gonna get through December without going into overdraft even, I get more time off / standby days than I know what to do with and this week I booked and paid for a well earned week's holiday for self and wife in a nice exotic location. And yes we still love each other, after all the stress and hassle of years of no money and crap jobs and wannabe-ism.

Don't really know what point I am trying to make except to say that I reckon my life is pretty bloody rosey at the moment, and yes there are still jobs and employers out there who aren't hell bent on ruining you /shafting you / working you into an early grave, like just about every other misery guts on this forum would have you believe.

Merry xmas to you all :) :) :)

[scud_runner]

People should check out this post

PPRuNe Forums » Flight Deck Forums » Rumours & News » Tired budget jet pilots 'endanger passengers' - The Times

This is where it is all heading!! Some very interesting post about easy jet. Sounds like GA in Australia except you're flying a 737!!!

[handrail]

Luke

Good to see that all the **** finally paid off. Well done! Hope that it gives everybody out there some hope.

Merry Xmas

[Ramboflyer 1]

easy fix.
All Qantas F/Os could go to EK CX KA and many other better jobs with faster command upgrades. QF would have to park half there fleet or increase pay to get people back .
About 800 pilots from AN were soaked up so too could all the QF boys .

[rtforu]

Capt M, I don't think you need to be a conspiracy theorist to come up with that one, I think what you are suggesting is very close to the mark. No doubt the present government would be delighted to deminish the strength of any unionised work force, Ansett included.

[thinking pilot]

Good post GETMEOUTOVGA

It is all about give and take, if you believe things are on the improve you stick with it, if not, you get out.

Unfortunetly a high percentage of pilots believe things cannot be changed. If they believe this they have already lost the battle.

[ugly]

Have a chat to people in the IT industry at present.
Saw a t-shirt that read
"My IT job was outsourced to India and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt"

Sort of sums it up.

In the US companies are laying of thousands of IT staff at a time a outsourcing all of these functions to places like India and China. Why pay an IT professional US$50G when a guy with a Phd in India will do the job for US$10G?

I read about an Aussie call centre that was outsourced to India and the new staff sat through movies like 'The Castle' to be 'Australianised'
:rolleyes:

But anyway - we're here to talk aviation...

[B772]

Ramboflyer 1

What makes you think a job at EK CX KA is better than a job at QF. I would happily trade mine for a job at QF with less pay and I know of many more who would do likewise.

[Ramboflyer 1]

Well you get your kids schooling almost free. Much more cash especially in HK. Fly bigger and better aircraft to more interesting places , get cheap travel to go home anyway anytime even on days off.
there is less violence in all these places , well im packing my bags ive talked myself into it.
So you would rather be a permanent f/o in QF , i dont thinkso.
You are lucky B772 if you are in one of these make the most of it.