Bae 146- The Flying Gaschamber?

[airtaxi]

Read in private-eye today that last November 5th a U.K bound 146 crew suffered near total incapacitation due to fumes in the air conditioning. I gather this is not a new problem. Any comments?

[capt waffoo]

"...read in Private Eye..."

FerChrissake!

An unlikely source of accurate, objective reporting, wouldnt you think, Airtaxi????

Hmph! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[Mad-Air]

Well beleive it or not........the Truth is out there....
Ask Raw Data for any clarification.....
I think you'll find it was a JY 146, and I was on duty that night....
The F/O couldn't remember the last 15 minutes of the flight according to the Capt. there were both in hospital over night for observation; no Bovine Stratology (thats Bull **** to the rest...!)!!!!
And until recently appears to be a regular occurance.....
Something to do with a.c packs and hydraulic fluid entering the system. Not very nice and highly carcenogenic......
The Australian and American authorities have been investigating. Could it be another reason that JY (B.E) have decicided to get some new a/c??

Mad-Air

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Watch out...
Too Err is Human.....
To Forgive is not Company
Policy.....!

[DoctorA300]

A Swedish carrier have had 3 incidents in the last 2 years, all Flight crew on the involved flights reported symptoms similar to carbonmonoxide posioning.

In all cases one of the engines had had higher than usual oil consumption, but no increased level of CO could be measured on subsequent testflights.

The swedish CAA have made it mandatory for swedish registered 146´es to have a CO detector installed in the cockpit, and it is now a MEL related item.

Brgds
Doc

[Raw Data]

Raw Data here, bringing clarification as requested.

This problem has absolutely nothing to do with hydraulic fluid.

The problem is that engine oil can leak past faulty seals and contaminate the air conditioning packs, resulting in fumes in the cabin and/or flight deck. This can happen in any turbine-powered aircraft, including unpressurised ones, and there have been several incidents of this on both Boeing and MD aircraft. It is a similar problem to fumes from de-icing fluid getting into AC systems.

Yet more old news.

It is by no means a regular occurance.

The oil is only carcinogenic (or more precisely, the organophosphates in the oil only separate out) at very high temperatures, in excess of 400C. This seldom happens in AC packs.

Good maintenance practices can virtually eliminate the problem- since the incident mentioned, BE instituted a very aggressive fleet-wide audit of engines and APUs, with any suspect units being immediately replaced. We now carefully monitor AC packs and ducts for any sign of oil, and have a reporting system for any fumes incident that might happen, however minor.

There has not been a recurrance.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I suspect this problem lies somewhere behind DVT, 737 rudder hardovers, and dodgy lighters in baggage- in other words, about 2 out of 10.

[mallard]

Sure, oil is harmless.
So why do they tell you avoid contact with your car's engine oil.
See also ongoing research into a connection between organo-phosphates and BSE/nCJD.

[Raw Data]

Comprehensively missing the point there Mallard. You are advised not to come into contact with ANY substance that could remotely harm you. The advice regarding contact with automotive oil is mostly to do with potential skin problems.

Just about everything carries a warning now, that's just the nature of the world we live in. The point is that organophosphates in oil cannot do you any harm unless they separate out from the oil first- see above.

Or so the DTI chemists say, anyway...

[Huck]

BAe-146: four semi-contained engine fires, connected by pools of leaking hydraulic fluid.

[twizzle]

There is no smoke with out fire!!
Have a look at this news item for 146 drivers.

http://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid%5F946000/946943.stm

[Effendi]

Raw Data,
I suggest you read the CAA incident report posted on the other strand. 3 incidents of incapacitation to both pilots now confirmed. Further denial, frankly, is irresponsible. A solution must be found urgently. You could be the next.

[Raw Data]

I haven't denied anything. Nice try though.

[kabz]

I remember a god-awful stench on an AirUK (146) flight back from hamsterdam.

I just assumed it was concentrated businessman's armpit. Probably was some kind of malfunction, after all. That's scarey.

[Raw Data]

More likely the crew meals had been overcooked!

[Xenia]

Ahhhh RD!!!! :rolleyes: there u go...blaming CC again!!!! :) :) :)

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*************************Happy Landings! :)
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[Bash]

I've read RD's posts on this and the roll back thread and I can find no evidence of denial in either. This air quality problem is again real but quite rare and the cause now established. Maintenance procedures are in place to prevent further occurrences and air quality is being closely monitored by all operators and BAe. Clarifying the facts amongst the speculation and sensationalism is not denial. It's objectivity. Quite a useful quality in an aviator.

[Capt.Paul Skinback]

Bash, nice to see you not banging on about how wonderful the BMC council is!! Thanks for all your efforts in getting us that underwhelming 2.2%!!!!!!!!! Apologies to all for digressing.........mind you these fumes might explain an awful lot..........