BAE Saudi

[moggie]

Anyone have any idea what salary BAE pay for sim instructors in Saudi? Just researching options at the moment.

Ta

Moggie

[billie]

Circa 60k but apart from the gov health warning on Saudi there's major chance of not liking BAE Saudi management much too.

Make sure you get everything in writing!

[moggie]

Thanks - I assume that's £60k rather than US$ or the like.

As I've been with BAE for 7 years I NOW know about getting it all in writing (and re-reading, re-reading, re-reading to spot those little catches).

[Pressed On]

Moggie,

My advice to you is to get in touch with the guys out there, a lot of whom would rather be somewhere else right now - not much prospect of things changing for the better in the near future, especially if it's Riyadh you're considering.

In my opinion (having "served time' there myself) you'd have to be extremely hard up, greedy or just bloody stupid to go there with the way things are at the moment!

:ugh:

[Echo 5]

Moggie,

Prepare yourself. I think there may well be some incoming from Soddim very soon!!

[soddim]

Yep, Echo 5, how did you guess?

Moggie seems to know what he's doing and that's more than one can say about BWoS.

I think Billie meant lbs not greenbacks.

I was fascinated to read this week that Dick Evans had useful Saudi contacts - bet they're rich!

If I was broke I think I'd visit DSS before Warton!

[moggie]

soddim

I have BOTH eyes open. Having just been made redundant by the new owners of the former BAE business unit that I am at, I am in the position of needing a job but having some time thanks to the payoff.

If I went for Saudi it would most definitely be for a short time and solely for the cash.

Keep the advice coming chaps.

[Echo 5]

Soddim,

Whenever I see BWoS mentioned on any of these threads I always sit back and wait for you to pounce. Keep them coming mate.

Moggie,

Best of luck if you decide to go for it.

Regards,

E5

[soddim]

Moggie, please excuse me if you know all this already but, if you are looking for short term gain, you need to take great care to understand the tax rules. You need to get out there just before the start of a tax year because you are only entitled to tax free salary if you spend a complete tax year out of UK (minus 90 days for holidays). So if BWoS try to delay your departure ('we couldn't get a visa' is the standard excuse) until just after the start of the next tax year, you would then not make tax free status until Apr 2006.

Should you get fired or so cheesed off you need to leave before completing a tax year, you will have a lot of paying Gordon Brown to do.

Doubtless you will have looked at some of this - good advice already given to contact someone out there - you'll not get the whole picture from Warton.

[twenty2fifty]

moggie, speaking as someone who is out here now, there beach has just re- openned again at Dhahran and if you can get a job - do it!! there is nothing to be sniffed at a 60K tax-free income. this year has been crap, but things are in the way up now.

sorry about the drug induced spelling mistake, i meant "the beach" above!

[soddim]

Moggie, you might want to update your int with this from BBC today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/middle_east/3329397.stm

No doubt those there know best but my life is worth more than 60k a year to me.

[twenty2fifty]

soddim

fair call and would never argue the fact that from the outside the perception of life in saudi is awfull.

however, living here life is not so bad with a big social life and fantastic weather, although it certainly won't suit the moaners or worriers.

For those earning 60K they can add another 10K for each child boarding plus a whole wack of other bonuses and benefits.

Moggie

If you have mortgages to pay and kids to educate there are far worse ways of earning that much cash. The tax year thing that soddim mentions is valid so you certainly have to commit enough time to make sure you cover a full tax year at least.

good luck

[saudipc-9]

I would have to say that life here is not that bad either with one exception.....Security.
If life was the same as it was ,say one year ago, then I think alot of folks would stay. However, four PC-9 pilots have recently resigned and I feel another 5-10 in the next few months to follow.
Pity really, as it was alot of fun at times, but all good things come to an end.

[CSL]

Moggie,

Sim Instructors in Riyadh are all locals - so you may have to look towards the beach or in the boonies for sim jobs,

Cheers,

CSL

[Captain Sand Dune]

Moggie,

Are you getting the idea? Would you really want your family living in a compound surrounded by barbed wire with APC's out the front? I've seen prisons with less security than that! Trust me matey, you don't want it!

[soddim]

The worrying thing about the APCs out front is that, come the revolution, guess which way their guns will be pointing?

[moggie]

Captain Sand Dune

Thanks for the input, but if you don't mind I shall decide if I want it or not!

[Min Drag]

I think the RSAF may have an input into that decision as well!! :ok:

[Captain Sand Dune]

Moggie old chap, you asked for input so don't get your nose out of joint when you get an answer that you don't like. :rolleyes:
Perhaps you shouldn't have asked the question.:hmm:

[moggie]

CSD - you misunderstand me. Thanks for the input but once I have received that input, I make my decisions (that's if I get offered a job) rather than get told what to think.

Do you want me to tell you which car to buy next? I can tell you what I think of various models, but would leave that decision to you.

Don't get me wrong, input gratefully received.

[soddim]

Just in case the link don't work, here's the latest Brit Embassy Riyadh warden notice. It goes on a bit but this should give the general picture. The good news is that they are no longer locking Brits up for 'booze wars' every time a fanatic plants a bomb. However, it does seem that money makes people blinkered but I guess in the end it boils down to individual choice - long may we have it!

Saudi Arabia


SUMMARY


We advise British nationals against all but essential travel to Saudi Arabia. Following terrorist attacks in Riyadh in May and November, we continue to believe terrorists are planning further attacks in Saudi Arabia, and that these could be in the final stages of preparation.


If you choose to travel to, or remain in, Saudi Arabia you should take all necessary steps to protect your safety and should make sure you have confidence in your individual security arrangements.


You should maintain a high level of vigilance, particularly in public places frequented by foreigners such as hotels, restaurants and shopping malls. You should adopt a low profile and avoid public gatherings which could lead to disorder.


You should remember that Islamic law is strictly enforced in Saudi Arabia.




SAFETY AND SECURITY


Terrorism


There is a continuing high threat of terrorism in Saudi Arabia. We continue to believe terrorists are planning further attacks in Saudi Arabia, and that these could be in the final stages of preparation. The threat includes, but is not limited to, residential compounds.


On 25 November, the Saudi authorities intercepted a terrorist vehicle laden with explosives. They have confirmed that the Seder Village compound was among probable targets. We have no information on whether other compounds might have been targeted. The Embassy remains in close touch with the Saudi authorities, who are enhancing their security measures, including those at compounds.


Terrorists attacked the Muhayya residential compound in Riyadh on 9 November killing 18 and injuring more than 80. This attack followed co-ordinated bomb attacks against residential compounds in Riyadh on 12 May, which resulted in the death of more than 30 people, including two British nationals. Many more were injured.


UK air services were suspended to Riyadh and Jedda on 13 August, following credible information of a threat to British aviation interests. The Saudi authorities have since further increased airport security and UK air services resumed on 6 September.


Prior to the attacks of 12 May, a number of British nationals and other Westerners were killed or injured in a series of smaller scale bombings in Riyadh and al Khobar. The most recent fatal incident in this series killed a German national in Riyadh in September 2002. These explosions have varied: some were car bombs; one was a parcel bomb; others exploded in shopping areas.


In February 2003, a British national was shot and killed while his car was at traffic lights in Riyadh. There have been a number of other recent incidents in which shots were fired at British nationals and other Westerners.


We advise against all but essential travel to Saudi Arabia. If you choose to travel to, or remain in, Saudi Arabia, you should take all necessary steps to protect your safety and should make sure you have confidence in your individual security arrangements.


You should maintain a high level of vigilance, particularly in public places frequented by foreigners such as hotels, restaurants and shopping malls. Visitors to military buildings and bases should take special care. You should take sensible precautions for your personal and vehicle safety. British residents in Saudi Arabia are given specific guidance, including through warden's notices. Advice is available to visitors from the British Embassy in Riyadh, the British Consulate General in Jedda and from the Embassy website: http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/saudiarabia (click on "Consular"). You are also advised to read: Security and General Tips and Risk of Terrorism. You should follow news reports and be alert to regional developments. Any increase in regional tension might affect travel advice.

[Captain Sand Dune]

..........so........ops normal then....:rolleyes:
Soddim, did you leave Riyadh ~ mid '02?

[soddim]

No, CSD, I left the sand dump a little earlier. Congratulations on your escape by the way!

[saudipc-9]

So CSD which Sqn were you on?

[Captain Sand Dune]

Started at WSO Flight, 9SQN then 77SQN, 11SQN. Enough clues?!:)
Had a few beers at your place too....:cool:
The only thing I miss about the place is the (expat) people and the money.

[Captain Sand Dune]

..........and you have been at 77SQN since you started, and have a villa at F******* compound with a nice b... umm refreshment area at the back.;)

[Min Drag]

........never actually did anything useful on 77 Sqn when I was there!!! :}

[Theeb]

Oh you guys just can't help yourself can you?!!

Get some time up! :cool:

[Captain Sand Dune]

"Theeb" eh? Used to use that callsign once! :)
Didn't get any more time up in that dump than was absolutely necessary!!:yuk:

[saudipc-9]

CSD,
Ahh you are thinking of the Cocoa Cabana but that is a couple of doors down from my villa.:p :p

You didn't have an accident water sking once did you????

Now Min Drag, no need to beat yourself up like that :} by the way Abid, says hello between mouthfuls of chips:E and how much he enjoyed working with you. He he

[Min Drag]

The Cocoa Cabana - I remember it well. I certainly remember entering but not leaving the last time I went!! :yuk:

I had some good times in Saudi but don't envy the guys just setting out on the venture - anyone on their way? If you are raving hatstand enough to be considering it, then best of luck - keep your heads down and remember that if the locals don't get you down the compnay will.

saudipc-9, nice socks mate - tell Abid that Adolf misses him :ok:

[Huron Topp]

Just for the heck of it...they have any interest in old(40) retread nav's?

[UNCTUOUS]

The most important thing about leaving BAe Saudi was getting your clause 24(?) - was it? Can't recall, it's been so long. Gratuity and pension anyway. But actually (Like Mike R??, Kim F????? etc it was preferably getting to collect that elusive million dollar payout). Some of us got it but most didn't. Few got both - you had to be lucky. Some (like Cherry) got it the hard way. And Dicky Duck and Mike B never lived to enjoy their pensions. But if you lucked out and the exchange rate was right for you, the cheque was just a few thou short of the magic A$M.

So anyone out there now who gets crippled, blown up, (or otherwise "offed" by the Wahabbis)) will be auto-enriching the family coffers by loads of loot. The odds of you winning that BAe insurance loottery are phenomenally better than your chances of cracking it in LOTTO. I wouldn't hesitate doing it again if I was in the position to. BAe nonsense is no worse at the end of the day than any Air Force trivia - and you get to play superb mind-games with Saud's (juniors and seniors). You also get to take grand holidays anywhere you wish. You learn to brew and make exotic liquors and liqueurs to a very high standard (and I still do) - and live in fine villas with housemaids. And if you find that you don't like it you can just do what some did - go on Ramadan leave and don't come back. If you fall in love with the culture and lifestyle, they'll pay you US$15K to convert to Islam (and give you a free copy of the Quran and a little rule-book and a free 5-alarm alarm clock). And if they find that they don't like YOU, well they'll give you a free air-ticket out of the place to the bolt-hole of your choice. In fact you are spoilt for choice once you're there - truly. Would I lie to you? Why would I lie to you?

[soddim]

UNCTUOUS,

If you are referring to the aircrew insurance for loss of flying category when you refer to "that elusive million dollar payout", it has finished, ended, kaputt because too many aircrew cheated the system and claimed it without just cause. Very disappointing to see because a friend of mine had a genuine claim after ejecting from an ethnically induced accident and had to struggle for a long time to get much less compensation.

There's greed everywhere it seems.

[Echo 5]

Soddim,

I know that you were referring specifically to "Aircrew Insurance" but I think that in general terms it's a case of "the more you have,the more you want" and I'm not just talking about aircrew.
Many people out "there" going back to the year dot have never been satisfied with earning a generous tax free salary but have wanted to enhance that salary by various nefarious activities.
By the way, nice touch that " ethnically induced accident"!!!
Regards
E5

[soddim]

Yes E5, I agree and there are a lot of sad cases who seem to forget what they wanted the money for - by the time they leave they are too far gone to do anything with it. Must be a limit to how much of one's life is worth foregoing in order to raise money.

Wonder what the optimum solution is?

Shame that military pensions are not enuff below the rank of gp capt.

[PC9geek]

Hey guys, good luck to you. I just got home and am trying to integrate into civilization. Looks like things are getting worse over there. The frequency and severity of the warnings are picking up.

Good luck with (some) of your revised contracts. Hmmm more danger less pay, isn't that counter intuitive and non-sensible or is there some justification I haven't heard of.

I was really suprised to hear that some of you who worked on the flight line were not informed of events such as:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/28/1072546397709.html

Isn't that your flight line they are talking about?

During the later part of my stay, it became apparent to me that BAE was taking the approach of keeping you in the dark about security threats and downplaying any actual events.

Its fine to have a stiff upper lip, but not the Wife and kids I expect their upper lips to be soft and supple.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Abid? ABID?!?!?:eek:
Aaaaaarrrghhhh:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:
Kick him in the shins for me next time you see him:*
Nope, it wasn't me that had the water skiing accident.:cool:

[Echo 5]

Moggie,

As usual we all digress and ramble on about this and that.
To get back to the thread - it would be nice to know what decision you finally make and how you get on.

Regards,

E5

[UNCTUOUS]

I'm not aware of any who rorted the system. Of course there were many casting nasturtiums that it may have been the case and quite a few had to enrich lawyers in order to collect - and that could take years. It only cost me a few months in hospital after the bad dudes did me over - but I made a good recovery and didn't have to fight the company for the payout. In fact the cheque came out of the blue with almost no notice and I was told that I'd qualified only about a week to ten days before (I'd completely forgotten about it - or had assumed it only paid out if you had a death certificate). By direct comparison, I never got anything out of Vets Affairs after sustaining injuries in Vietnam as a combatant. But I guess that I cannot complain. I have two arms, two legs, two eyes, I can run, chase tail and don't need a hearing aid - and I've a full medical cat - and I still don't wear glasses (although I have to carry them).

The Canadian bad neck 4WD sand dune roll-overs were all signed off by a huge battery of doctors (US and Canada). The loss of hearing cases weren't paid out on unless you'd been in Kingdom over ten years and anyone who recalls how profoundly deaf John Wh????? became whilst he was there might have thought that a bit stiff. I think that there was a certain element of envy from those who didn't qualify and I'm surprised that the Company has now cancelled that perk. In fact I wouldn't go out there without it - knowing what I know now. You have to be sure that your family will be taken care of and not have to shell out large premiums yourself in order to make it so. It is after all, very very insecure employment - from all sorts of perspectives.

[mutt]

Mercer, who said he had been informed of the plot by an "unimpeachable" source, intended to raise the matter at the House of Commons immediately after MPs returned from their Christmas break on January 5, the newspaper reported.

Its now Jan 10th, did Mercer present his FACTS to the House??

Mutt.

[moggie]

Echo 5 - the application form is in but it looks as if BAE are wanting to steer me towards Kuwait, anyway.

I`ll let you all know what comes out of it.

[Echo 5]

Moggie,

I believe the indigenous population is a lot friendlier up there, the sea fishing is GREAT ( Iam told) and the biggest positive,you don't have to fly Saudia.

Regards,

E5.

[Min Drag]

Moggie,

I have a very "close friend" who is working for the Kuwait outfit, he has also worked in Riyadh. He can give you his assurances that Kuwait is indeed far better than Saudi. ;)

It is (apparently) a bit like living in Dubai without the booze. Women can drive and wear what they want, there is a lot more to do - cinemas, water parks, Zoo, museums, ice rink not to mention, as E5 elluded to, the sea with all its associated benefits. The cafes, restaurants and shopping are about as good as it gets in the Mid East - you can also leave the country when you like.

The down side is you won't save as much, the package isn;t as good, you spend more cos there's more to do and in general it's a more expensive place to live.

Given a choice I know where I'd rather be. :ok:

MD

[pull_to_the_tickle]

Moggie,

do you know anything about flying jobs.........one year ago I applied for SAUDI, but obviously a lot of things changed........

[moggie]

PTTT - sorry, don't know anything about the flying jobs out there (I'm still waiting to hear about my application - the acknowledgment letter from BAE arrived 3 weeks after I sent the form off).

[pull_to_the_tickle]

Thanks,
I keep an eye on it.......I still got 9 month to go until I retire from the military......

[clanger]

There should be the possibility of flying jobs on Hawk and Tornado ADV (F3) at sunny old Tabuk. Definitely short of Hawk pilots so if you have instructional ticks and previous Hawk time you could be on to a winner. Current Hawk instructor would get out to kingdom a lot sooner as Bae training system tends to get a tad clogged up! There is 1 x pilot and 2 x WSO slots free on ADV. Min experience is OCU instructor. Get paid more than Hawk dudes and looks like ADV may last a few years more (inshalla!).

[pull_to_the_tickle]

Thanks for the info Clanger,
it looks to me that because of my previous experience as T38 instructor I could fit into the Hawk deal.

Let's see what happens.....

p_t_t_t

[saudipc-9]

While I would never tell someone not to come out to Saudi I do have a word of warning for those who do choose to come out here.
The Saudi's are people who you expect to receive grief from the odd time to time. However, the most dissappointing aspect of being here are the people who develop a sanctimonious attitude towards their fellow employees. Very happy to point out your faults and minor foul-ups but the first to dismiss/ignore their own faults/mistakes as irrelevent or someone else's fault.