How would you deal with this scenario?

[Flock1]

Hello all,

I am a new(ish) PPL (A) and I have yet to do either an IMC or an IR rating.

So here is the scenario, and it is one that I sincerely hope I never ever experience myself....

...an inexperienced, but fully-qualified PPL pilot (like me) sets off from his (or her) little airfield, and somehow finds himself in IMC conditions. He did check the weather beforehand, but because he got himself a little lost, he has drifted into the BAD weather. He can't see the ground, he's not entirely sure of where he is, and after doing a 180 orbit, he is still in conditions that are potentially deadly. his nerves are now fraught. But he doesn't tell anyone yet.

As luck would happen though, he happens to be in contact with an ATC controller from a Class D airport (say Leeds or Newcastle etc), and he is on the edge of their zone. His transponder is showing up on their radar.

The pilot is panicking now, and knows that he is in major trouble, but is somehow remembering his PPL training about instrument flight, and is just about managing to keep at straight at level.

Should he declare an emergency? Should he try to leave the airport zone? Anyway, let's assume that the weather is really BAD, and he cannot see anything at all outside. Let's also assume that the cloud base is 200ft agl up to 15000ft, and it is widespread. He is flying at 2000ft, and there might be some high ground nearby. He cannot be expected to fly out of the mess, and in addition, the vis below the cloud base is about 1km. Wind though, is not a factor (which is probably explains the fog.) His fuel is okay, say a couple of hours, but his temprement is not. When he calls you, you know he is on the verge of losing it soon. He is a statistic waiting to happen.

...So how would you help him out. How would you handle this dreadful situatioin? Would the big jets be told to orbit, and would you try to talk him down via an ILS approah (which he may have done on his flight simulator at home). Would you just keep him going 'round in circles, until the weather hopefully lifted?

And to add a further question. Let's say he does manage to get his single-prop aircraft down in one piece, what punishments will befall him? And how much would he be charged?

Thanks in advance. I look forward to hearing your replies.

Flock

[flower]

If you have the ATC units frequency call them up straight away, if not immediately call up 121.5.
The longer you dither over this the less time will be available to sort out the problem.
ATC and D&D have multiple tricks up their sleeves to help you out.
It may be a simple talk down , ie you may not have a IR rating but you are more than likely able to fly a heading. You may be positioned overhead the airfield or to a position which we know as safe and cloud free for a cloud break, a local aircraft may also be sent to fly alongside you to help you out.
There are so many solutions to this scenario, but you must call up straight away, we are there to help. It is when things go wrong that we earn our pennies.

[Jerricho]

what punishments will befall him? And how much would he be charged?

This isn't a personal attack, but I hope that this wouldn't enter ANYBODY's mind if they were in a situation the felt was starting to get beyond their control. And sooner rather than later is definately the way forward. Pride can be a dangerous thing, and who's going to look dumber, a pilot calling 121.5 and letting it be known they aren't comfortable, or the guy who keeps it to him/herself and suddenly finds the big fan go very quiet. And I wouldn't think anybody would run out on to you on landing and bite your head off.

If as in you example, you were painting on radar, as Flower pointed out, there are multiple tricks that can be used. Even if you weren't painting but were in radio contact, many towers about the place have DF, which using your transmissions will indicate your direction from the airfield. D&D can also triangulate your position with their fancy kit.

[jack-oh]

I have seen this exact scenario on two occasions, albeit not in class D airspace. The first was in Cornwall where the pilot got lost and confused as he entered fog. He decided to climb for terrain avoidance and call Culdrose. He was running out of fuel and had his wife and newborn baby were onboard (Yes this is true). To cut a long story short he was given vectors and descent instructions and carried out a PAR for the first time in weather conditions that would have put anyone to the test. On finals, he took out a couple of the approach lights but landed safely with only enough fuel to taxi off the runway. Needless to say, his wife wasn't that impressed and caught the train home. The second time was near Inverness where a pilot took up a group of passengers on a look around the local area, again he got caught out and went IMC without any form of instrument rating. In this instance, he tried to remain VMC below and started to get very close to the lumps and bumps. Finally, he climbed and between Lossiemouth and Inverness ATC, he was given instructions to descend over the sea until VMC, at which point he made a dash for the airport and landed. His passengers were up in arms, and the incident was reported to the police. He was eventually tried and found guilty of some offence, other than being stupid, that involved private hire and qualifications, as far as I can remember. If you find yourself in such a position, declare a PAN (yes they may take the mick out of you in the bar but at least you will be there to hear them) you will be treated with priority. If you are in the same situation as the bloke in Cornwall, upgrade the emergency to a MAYDAY. If your already speaking to ATC use that frequency if your not call on guard. I don’t know a single air traffic controller that wouldn’t do his utmost to help you out. Equally, I don’t know one that wouldn’t dine out on the story of ATC heroism for years to come.

[vintage ATCO]

Yes, don't delay, call someone and state what the problem is, local freq if you know it, 121.5 if you don't. Don't keep anything back. And don't start fretting about consequences, we just need to have you on the ground safe and sound. Then we can all take a sigh of relief.

However, going back to the beginning, we'd rather not have you get yourself in this situation in the first place!! ;) In your scenario, given the weather, as soon as your were 'uncertain of position' is the time to shout for help. We don't bite. :p


VA

[G-Foxtrot Oscar 69]

Does this not beg certain questions about the PPL?

Lets be honest this little island in the North Atlantic does not have the worlds best flying weather.

I have been flying in CAVOK and been into afternoon autumn sun. You can see nothing.

Should the PPL not be extended to include some instrument get you home flying. Ie the IMC? I know there is some instrument flying on the JAA PPL but very little and a lot of PPL holders fly few hours and in good weather.

Ok I know I will get so much chaf sent up that I will crash and burn on this point but would be interested to know what ATC officers and other pilots think.

(I think I will don my parachute now):}

[FWA NATCA]

FLOCK,

As everyone has stated, PLEASE ask ATC for assistance as soon as you realize that you are in trouble, the longer you wait the worse your situation may become. My least worry would be, am I going to get in trouble for this.

Basically here is what we will do, the steps will depend slightly on how panicked or calm you are:

1. Give you a discrete transponder code and radar identify you, and determine your position, and altitiude. We will tell you the minimum safe altitude for obstruction clearance in your area.

2. Stress that you TRUST your instruments, and keep the plane straight and level. RELAX, trust us, and believe your instruments!

3. Try to Calm you down, and ask about your pilot qualifications, experience, and FUEL Situation.

4. Provide vectors to the closest airport, or area that is reporting VFR conditions. As someone mentioned this may mean being vectored over water where you can descend back down into VFR conditions. Any turns (vectors) that you are given, we will tell you to make slow gradual turns (half rate) to help prevent you from getting vertigo and ending up in a spin or worse. We normally won't ask you to climb/descend and turn at the same time unless it is absolutely necessary.

5. Have you Call us once you are safely on the ground so that we can relax, too.

Seriously, we are here to help you, not to violate you. Our goal is to help you get safely back into VFR condtions and on the ground.

Mike R
NATCA FWA

[126.825]

Since the JAA licence came in there have been attempts decrease the problems with PPL's getting lost with the extra Nav Aids they now do. from memory PPL's are now taught some VOR's,ADF's and DME's and also taught how to do a 180 turn on instuments so after flying into bad weather than can fly back out.

Unfortunately i think the problem lies with the individuals themselves. whether it be pride or a lack of appreciation that this hobby/sport can kill!

Having run several flying clubs it has always amazed me the chances low houred, inexperienced and infrequent fliers (and some that should know better) will take to the point of having to be stopped.

eg. i even had to stop one flyer, flying to a CAA safety day, when the cloud base was 800ft (and he didnt have an IMC).

By law pilots have to take reasonable steps to get the weather (by fax,phone etc) and if in any doubt dont go.

it is far better being down here wishing you were up there than the other way round!!

[p290951]

this post reminds me of my 3 leg solo cross country . The weather was VFR with 7 miles in haze. After reaching my cruise altitude, I discovered my forward vis was u/s, but down was OK.
Unknown to me at this time, my rudder trim was out [C152] by 10% and therefore I was tracking of course. realizing I was lost, I contacted London, ON. ATC who provided me with a DF steer.
This was 22 years ago. Somethings you never forget.

[chiglet]

Many [many] moons ago, I was talking to a PPL who was saying that the wx was sooo bad, he was at 50' "trying to read railway station names. When I asked him just why he hadn't called 121.5, he looked at me in astonishment and said......
"But 121.5 is the emergency frequency" :rolleyes:
watpiktch

[andyb79]

i am currently training for my PPL (waiting to get my skills test bokked at the moment) so have just completed the training. i did find the lack of instrument flying a bit of a concern, not much more than a couple of 180 turns and some VOR tracking and thats about it. I did wind up doing some more but thats just how me and my instructer were(60' AOB turns under the hood aint easy!) but all in i would not say that enough is taught to keep you safe in bad weather

[Jerricho]

"Today wasn't the day to give up sniffing glue........."

[Timothy]

There does seem to be a general reluctance, from the newest tyro SPL to the wizened old ATPL to use the M and P words.

You hear people saying that they "wish to declare an emergency" or "We require a priority landing" or "we are temporarily uncertain of our position" or "we have a problem up here" or "we are a little low on fuel."

"Mayday" and "Pan Pan" are there to communicate rapidly with ATC that you require their urgent and full attention and that your circumstances place you in greater need of a service than others on frequency or in the area.

If you judge that those circumstances apply you should use the appropriate word, and not faff about trying to sound like a cool Apollo 13 jock or whatever.

As a frinstance, I was flying my Aztec at night in broken IMC when a series of things went wrong with the electrics, one after the other - various circuit breakers popped, but reset OK, one NAV radio failed. None of these things really compromised the flight per se, but I was thinking "there's something awry here, and I really don't want to be up here, in controlled airspace, at night, in IMC with a total electrical failure" So I declared a PAN PAN, was instantly instructed to go speechless, to preserve battery, and was swiftly handed from one guy to the next to a landing at Biggin, all beautifully co-ordinated such that I never had to say a word (though I was given the opportunity to change squawk to indicate lack of willingness to comply with an instruction.)

It was like well-oiled clockwork...extraordinarily professionally handled and, like Flower says, why these guys are so well trained, highly paid and underworked :E

So use the magic words and get fantastically well looked after.

W

[360BakTrak]

like Flower says, why these guys are so well trained, highly paid and underworked

Will one of you tell this to my employer!!!!!!!!!

Only kidding! We're not paid to sit here looking at our kit doing absolutely b$gger all! As soon as you get into a situation that you'd rather not be in, ask for assistance!

Would you rather feel a bit emabarrased about getting into IMC and surviving or stacking into a hillside somewhere?

Make use of the facilities available to you!

It makes us feel like we're doing something worthwhile!:ok:

[Onan the Clumsy]

And to add a further question. Let's say he does manage to get his single-prop aircraft down in one piece, what punishments will befall him? And how much would he be charged? Whatever punishments there may be, they will not be of a capital nature ;)

[andyb79]

Would you rather feel a bit emabarrased about getting into IMC and surviving or stacking into a hillside somewhere?

this is something that has been drummed into me since day one of my training my instructor has ALWAYS told me the instant you get into IMC and cant see a way out climb to safety altitude and make the call to explain the situation!
there is nothing to be embarresed about and i do know what it is like because i have ended up IMC once (thankfully with the instructor) it's not nice and it is amazing how quickly you get disorianted but as i have always been taught if i do end up there again on my own (which i hope i wont because i really did not enjoy the experiance) there is only two things to do

1, climb
2, call

and it was mentioned about punishment
all in i would rather lose my licence and look stupid than become a CFIT statistic!

[tmmorris]

What I was taught:

Climb
Confess
Comply

(and when you get home, sign up for the IMC rating...!)

Tim

[MrApproach]

If you were really off track and this happened to you in Australia:
- You would be given priority regardless of whether you had declared an emegency, however the words PAN or MAYDAY do tend to grab everyone's attention;
- after a quick chat you would be processed by the safest approach and if we could we would get your club or school CFI on the phone;
- you would be subject to a alert or distress phase and the Australian SAR service would be alerted:
- yes, the big jet pilots would get to hold while we sorted your problem out, however they have probably been there and done that and normally seem very tolerant;
- my employer charges for our sevices so you would cop a charge from us and from the airport owner;
- we are obliged by legislation to submit an incident report;
- this goes electronically to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority;
- the former may investigate and make recommendations, the latter may also investigate and has the option to take action under the Civil Aviation Regulations;
- you have the option to buy copious amounts of alcohol for the controllers;
- in other words, assuming you survive, this could be a nightmare so don't press on, stay in VMC!

[ATCOJ30]

Flock 1: the very fact that you have posted this seems to indicate a very basic awareness of the "worst case scenario" and that's good. As many of the previous posts indicate, ATC take matters like this very seriously indeed; many of us have experience of dealing with such events and we are there to help you out as our absolute No. 1 priority when things turn nasty. We're not interested in punishment at such times and nor should you be. That's not to excuse any breach of legislation or act of negligence, of course, for which you may have some explaining to do later!

A few pointers may help you:

Plan your flight properly. Look at the terrain, look at the weather, look at the airspace environment, look for possible "escape" routes and suitable diversion aerodromes if things turn bad. Much as it may take an element of fun out of flying, it's just not a good idea to leap into an aeroplane without adequate preparation. And don't rely on GPS as your sole nav. aid! Carry a good, current topo. map.

Flying into the ground is usually fatal. You need to see where you are going. If you encounter IMC on your track and you are not suitably equipped/qualified to deal with it, never take the risk that you'll soon fly out of it. Stay VMC. Climbing to the MSA or higher may be okay but NOT if it puts you in sustained IMC and you can't cope. Best to turn back into VMC conditions.

Never, ever be afraid to call ATC and ask for help. Use "Pan" or "Mayday" (depending on the severity of your predicament) as the prefix and be aware that a transponder set to 7600 (radio fail) or 7700 (emergency) will trigger all sorts of alarms on radars and will instantly attract ATC's attention, not just at one unit but at several, including D&D. As Flower says, the nearest ATC unit or the one to which you are talking may be able to help but if they can't, they'll very soon find someone who can and that may be D&D who really will pull out all the stops to help you and get you back to earth safely. Come and talk to ATC at your nearest radar-equipped aerodrome and see the facilities they have to help you. Talk to the "coal-face" ATCOs and I'm sure you'll be reassured. Many of us have flying experience too, which helps. Enjoy safe flying.

[yaffs]

if in doubt - call atc
like others have said - best to call up as soon as poss - frankly id rather earn my cash helping you out than putting out a call to search and rescue saying i think i just lost one

and yeah - we may end up holding the " big boys" to get you in - but emergency traffic takes priority over everything else

dunno about the costs etc - but - i would hope that wouldnt be a consideration as to whether you would declare an emergency or not
folk do make mistakes - and as we all know the weather can suddenly get a bit crap unexpectedly, - had a snow warning come out once about an hour after it had started snowing!!!!


enjoy your flying!!!

yaffs

[ferris]

In a radar environment, the problem is very easily and very quickly solved.
You can only get yourself into more trouble by staying quiet. One of the things the inspector who has a chat with you (after you get down) will want see demonstrated is responsibilty. If you made a mistake, quickly fessed up, learned, moved on, you will come out of it much better than trying to 'get away' with something.
I once heard the FAA claimed the average time before a non IR pilot lost control of the aircraft when confronted with IMC was 45 seconds! (I think it is automatically a Distress Phase???)

Just for interest: I have had a pilot in exactly the situation you describe, except it was a non-radar environment. He was trapped in a valley which he thought contained a strip. His options were to land, or climb thru the thin layer until on top of cloud. We recommended he land, but on his inspection realised it was not a strip and was unsuitable to land on. We confirmed he was not where he thought by ringing someone at that strip and asking if there was a cessna circling. So he was lost, in and out of cloud, and beginning to panic. He had a lot of endurance, which gave us some options. We got an experienced pilot who was a controller to talk to him about what he had to do (maintain vis with terrain etc), what instruments he had etc. which helped calm him, while we rang around police stations etc trying to pinpoint his location. Eventually he found a gap in the cloud and climbed on top. Meanwhile, all the RPT traffic in quite a large area were grounded while we sorted him out. Eventually he got high enough to receive a ground aid, and he got talked all the way to a large airport (he was nowhere near where he thought). No-one complained about the delay, he wasn't charged with anything, and I'm sure it saved his plane, and maybe his life. It made our day a bit more interesting, too.
Moral: Speak up.

[Sensible]

When I was fresh out of my PPL training and out in Florida hour building, I visit various airports ending up in the Florida Keys. There are two days left before I need to be at the airport for my commercial flight back to the UK. So it’s time to return the airplane to Ormond. There is a weather front moving down from the North and after a flight briefing when “marginal conditions possible together with embedded thunderstorms” are mentioned, a route suggested by the Flight Briefer is up the West Coast, through the frontal system and then a right turn in clearer conditions over to Ormond. Ok, we take off into cloudy sky from Marathon, but no problems as the clouds are well above us. As we fly up the coast, the clouds are getting lower and visibility is getting worse, I reduce altitude to remain VFR and things are not looking anything like as good as my expectations but then the briefer did say that it was clearer the other side of the weather front and the front is exactly where the briefer said it would be and we only had about another 5-10 miles before conditions improve so I press on! Visibility gets worse and I descend to 1000ft agl but conditions continue to deteriorate, worse still, it starts to rain, I do a 180 turn but the weather behind had also closed in! The clouds are visibly descending. I can’t fly and look for the radio frequency of a close airport to land and in any event, I had turned 180 degrees and now exactly where was I? I had descended to 600' agl and could only just make out the ground beneath. I called up 121.5 fearful that I would be too low to be in radio contact with anyone. Luck was with me, my transmission was picked up by Ft Myers International ATC who gave me a frequency change and I then explained the problem and my altitude to the controller who gave me a transponder squawk and identified my position, I had to descend to 300’ in heavy rain to maintain visual with the ground. The controller kept in contact with me and gave me constant vectors to avoid radio and TV towers. Following the controller’s instructions, I arrived right at the threshold of the runway at Ft Myers. By that time the rain had turned to hail and there was lightning flashing. I have to say that I was thought constantly that a crash was a realistic conclusion to my crisis! In the event, it was an uneventful landing and I taxied to the apron and waited for the hail and lightning to abate before securing the airplane. I thanked the controller for my life and his skill to which his response was simply “that’s what we’re here for” That was the end of my flying, fortunately only for that day and I stayed overnight in Ft Myers before setting off the next day to return the airplane and report to the airport for my flight home.

Needless to say that I underwent substantial instrument training after that misadventure and now avoid flying at all when thunderstorms are predicted. I don’t think I will ever get over the trauma of the hail and lightning! I do however have the greatest respect for the people at ATC to whom I undoubtedly owe my life! My advice to anybody is never ever press on into marginal VFR conditions unless properly instrument trained and current. Furthermore don’t even think about going close to thunderstorms especially the embedded variety! It very nearly cost me my life!

In answer to the original post, I didn’t even consider the consequences or penalties of low flying or using 121.5 – my only consideration was my life and how to extend it! In the event, I did not suffer even a verbal slapping for the low flying or stupidity elements of my airmanship.

[mad_jock]

I would like to take issue with the description which Jack-oh provided about the INV event.

The plane was hired under false pretences by someone claiming to have a PPL.

The pilot had unfortunetly due to medical reasons lost his flying rights (he now holds a NPPL)

Instead of a check ride for the aircraft hire the pilot agreed to go along as a safety pilot and local guide. He was current and regularly went flying with an instructor safety pilot.

The person who had hired the aircraft asked him if he would fly it so the person could take photos. And the pilot was more than happy to fly.

After going and taking photos the pilot asked the person who hired it, to fly because he was now knackard. They then announced that they couldn't fly.

The pilot had in the past held a IMC rating.

Unfortunatly the wx came in and they had to go IMC to get back to inverness. The pilot was put in the position which he wouldn't have elected to be in if he knew the deception which had been used.

The pilot was taken to court and also the school which hired the plane. The person who hired the plane reported them for public transport after he was refused a refund when his photos didn't come out.

And the lesson learnt is never trust anyone who wants to take photos and you don't know. Bird spotters are always chancing there luck as well.

MJ

[jack-oh]

Mad-Jock,
I stand corrected.

[mad_jock]

Nae bother

:ok:

MJ

As I presume you are off Lossie ilk jack fancy having a pint some time m8, I speak to you every day. And if you want to go for play in a light aircraft it will be my treat.

[Flock1]

Thanks for all the replies.

I hope that I never find myself in a perilous position, but if I do, then I now know not to delay confessing to ATC.

Thanks once again

Flock1

[bigmanatc]

Flock

One last tip.....if you do happen to lose it and get vertigo and not tell up from down......close the throttle...drop all the flaps and the gear....take your hands off the stick......she WILL right herself.....watch the A/H and when she`s level again.....fly her.

Stay outta them nimbo`s.......

[Timothy]

Ah...if we are going to get into the world of how to control the aeroplane, as opposed to how to shout at ATC, my best advice for anyone who is not rated who accidentally enters IMC is to engage the a/p if one is fitted.

If you fly an aircraft with a/p or wing-leveller (and many SEPs have them, they just might not have been pointed out to you) you should be shown how to use it and then practice a few times in VMC.

It could save your life, both because it will keep you upright and never overstress the airframe, and because it will release a substantial proportion of your brain for thinking.

W

[timzsta]

We can all get caught out by the weather - even the forecaster.

I did the mandatory 5 hours instument time when I did my JAR PPL two years ago. Trouble is I havent done any since, other then tertiary use of them during my Night Rating recently. Maybe I really should go up with an Instructor for an hour and do some instruments refresher. Te aim though is not to get caught out by bad weather, but we live in the real world...

Remember this, when the sh^&e hits the fan - aviate, navigate, communicate. Follow that and you have a pretty good chance of surviving to tell the tale I believe.

And remember in the interests of flight saftey the PIC may deviate from the Rules of the Air. So if you have no IMC/IR rating and you are (for whatever reason that may or may not have been under your control) forced into IMC conditions then you are forced into IMC conditions. You depart from the rules for your own safety, declare a PAN or MAYDAY and then sort the problem out.

[FlyingForFun]

If you fly an aircraft with a/p or wing-leveller (and many SEPs have them, they just might not have been pointed out to you)It certainly should have been pointed out to you. At the very least, you should be checking that it is switched off prior to take-off, and checking that it can be switched off as part of your pre-flight!

I have to say that this is an excellent thread. There's nothing new in here, but it's the kind of information that we all need to be reminded about every now and then. Personally, I've never managed to actually get myself into a cloud accidentally, but I have found myself in worse vis than I'd have liked, or becoming squeezed into a gap between the clouds and the ground, and although these situations are not as serious as Flock1's example scenario, ATC have always been unbelievably helpful.

FFF
--------------

[GroundBound]

As someone said, ATCOs may dine out on stories for years. Here’s one from 30 years ago (not that I’ve dined out on it of course :) ). Despite its age, it could have happened yesterday, and is still useful to understand what ATC can do to help.

It was a Friday afternoon in winter, the weather was fairly grim, lowish cloud, scattered rain and limited visibility. Her Majesty’s flying club had packed up and retired to the bar and we were all waiting for the bell to go home.

The Tower controller called down the intercom to ask if we knew anything about the light aircraft “small, high wing” which had just crossed the threshold, low level – he had, after all, expected to have been notified about it. At the same time, the zone controller on the adjacent console was replying on the telephone to a nearby unit “no, we don’t know of anyone like that here”. Then there was a brief trace on the primary radar (yes, that loooong ago) about a mile out on the approach.

A quick chat with the adjacent unit, to ask what the trouble was. “There’s someone calling on our frequency, but he’s very faint. The DF is very variable but it suggests he is down your way, and he’s probably very low. It’s a Cessna 150, he’s lost and he’s low on fuel”. Well, quite some coincidence! There’s another brief paint, so I select the alternate radars which give different low level coverage. Yeah, maybe there’s someone there, but it’s pretty intermittent. It’s about 10 minutes to night now, so things aren’t going well for this guy. “Switch him to our frequency”, I ask, “and we’ll try to get a DF on him”. Well, for some reason we can’t get him on our frequency – probably the guy’s terrified and doesn’t want to loose the only source of help he thinks he has.

There’s a small GA airfield about 5 miles north of this faint radar paint, so I call the unit, ask them to stay open (the Tower controller was just putting on his coat to go home) and put on the runway lights. Get the QFE and pass it the adjacent unit for relay to the lost soul. Then I pass vectors via the adjacent unit who relay these to the guy on their frequency.

The trace is still faint and interrupted, I’m not even sure it is him, but I see it turning (and fading) towards the airfield. The adjacent unit tells me he has an airfield in sight, and the GA Tower calls to say they can hear a light aircraft overhead. It’s almost dark now, but there’s nothing more we can do - at least he has a runway to land on.

The next day, we hear the rest of the story. Overhead the airfield, his tanks ran dry and the fan stopped. He managed to get it down, but overran the runway into the hedge, but walked away with no major problems. The aircraft was a bit bent.

Who was the guy? Well, he was a trainee controller doing his PPL training course qualifying cross country. He turned right instead of left at some point and became completely lost. We never found out whether he tried 121.5 (he might have been too low, since he was observed only a few hundred feet above the ground).

So what do we learn from this? Don’t wait – call! ATC can, and will help. They will do everything in their power to make sure you can get down in one piece – they are interested in your safety, not legalities.

In many aircraft accidents, there are a number of events which, together, contribute to the accident. In this case, there were many events which occurred together to save the day – the call from the Tower, the overheard call of the adjacent unit, the brief radar paint at exactly the right moment, the GA Tower controller answering the phone even though he was leaving. If any one of these events had not occurred, the guy would have lost his engine overhead unknown territory, in the dark. It’s unlikely he would have made it.

BTW, the controller at the adjacent unit got a bo*****ing for his role in the incident. I never understood why.

Don't hestitate, ever - call!

[av8boy]

Flock,

I'd echo what's been said thus far, but add just a minor point. Among other things, you said,

...He did check the weather beforehand, but because he got himself a little lost, he has drifted into the BAD weather.

Please understand that when you call me I don't care if you bounded into the air after careful preperation or did so without a glance skyward. If you didn't plan properly, that's for you to sort out with the license people later on. When you call us (any of us) with a problem, we all play the hand we've been dealt. Don't tell me that you checked the wx before you left or that you're "a little lost." Stick to stuff that's important NOW. Tell me you've gotten yourself into conditions which are beyond your ability and that you're lost. Tell me what you know and what you're able to do. You and me, we're going to be best friends for the next few minuites and we need to be on the same page and FOCUSED.

Want to call me later and tell me how you checked the wx before you left and you have no idea how it could have gone to hell so fast etc? Fine. Do it. I'd love to hear from you. But for now, put it out of your mind and aviate. Let's work this out and get you down.

Now, ident and verify your altitude and heading...

Dave

[Flock1]

Thanks again everyone. It's extremely reassuring to know that ATC's will do their utmost to get down a lost pilot.

But reading all of this has led me to another question, and one that most people probably already know....

If the lost pilot confessed to the ATC at a Class D airport, what happens to all of those other pilots who were on frequency? Do they get to go onto a spare frequency, because I wouldn't have thought it wise to instruct the lost pilot to start fiddling with his radio, when he will be having enough trouble just maintainig straight & level?

Sorry if this question seems trivial. I just want to know.

Flock1

[av8boy]

In my experience, everybody turns their professional manner up a notch and uses great economy in radio transmissions. Remember that everybody on the frequency is clear on the concept here, and most are probably turning the words, "there but for the grace of God go I" over in the back of their minds. It's also kind of neat that all of the other pilots on frequency contribute to the assist when they do this. Team effort. What's more, I've never had to say to other aircraft on the freq "keep it short, I'm working an aircraft in distress here." It just happens. Coolest damned thing. Great example of situational awareness provided by all involved...

Although you're correct in your assumption that we want to keep you from having to do things like change frequencies at a time like this, most shops don't have the luxury of moving everybody else to another frequency. So we all (drivers and controllers) just deal with it. If it goes south, it seldom has to do with frequency congestion or controller workload generated by non-emergency aircraft.

Dave

PS Stop saying "confessed." You're availing yourself of a service here. You're in a spot and we're simply a tool that may be able to help. If you end up having a confessor because of this situation, it'll be a guy sitting across a table from you discussing the facts and their impact on your future in aviation some days or weeks later. It won't be the guy who says "RADAR contact."

[Scott Voigt]

Flock one;

Can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the US chances are slim that there is an extra freq to use...

regards

Scott

[mad_jock]

I think you will find flock that most ATCO's will be just as traumatised after the event as the pilot was.

And god forbid the end result was not good, I would imagine that they would undergo alot of self searching about their efforts dealing with the situation.

Its all a big team game up their ATC arn't your enemys or the police of the skys. They are there so everyone gets to where they want to go with the minimal of fuss as safely as possible.

I suggest you go for some beers with some and or visit a unit. They can mostly drink like fish and luv informing pilots whats involved at the other end of the mic.

MJ

[eastern wiseguy]

Do they get to go onto a spare frequency

Flock in my bit of class D my watch would tend to move everyone else onto a spare frequency and give you and the controller the luxury of a quiet frequency thus allowing thinking time.You may be interested to know that we use this type of scenario in our TRUCE (training for unusual occurence and events) training which we have to complete on a yearly basis. I agree with the people who was written here.DO NOT be frightened about announcing your problems...the quicker we know the sooner we can get you back on the ground.And as Mad Jock says ...VISIT an ATC unit ..and we can all drink like fish...:ok:

[Timothy]

On the subject of spare frequencies, I have long wondered what is the availability of 121.5 to units outside the main centres?

I know that you monitor it in a lot of places, but do you have the right to transmit? Do you have the right to be the Controlling Authority? Can you recruit the help of other nearby centres on 121.5?

etc

W

[av8boy]

Speaking as TRACON/Tower puke in the US, 121.5 is just another tool. I can (and do) use it whenever it makes sense to do so (not to mention... "got a minute for a radio check on 21.5?")

Dave;)

[West Coast]

I hate being the non flying pilot on early AM flights, "can you give PRC radio a call on 122.5, then xxxx, then xxxx......"

[av8boy]

I'm stunned. I thought it was an honor!

You can always say no, you know...

:D

Dave

[Scott Voigt]

Some centers in the US have done away with monitoring 121.5 as a cost saving measure. The ones that have done so have enough terminals and FSS outlets that can monitor... We still have UHF guard though.. Military primary at times...

Scott

[TD&H]

Unless I missed it, no-one seems to have suggested calling 121.5 for a practice Pan. Listen out for a while to make sure there's no-one in real trouble, then give them a call requesting a practice Pan. Do this in a nice quiet bit of airspace, when you're not working another frequency. Think through beforehand of a suitable scenario, eg getting stuck in IMC, an ill passenger and you need to divert to a suitable airfield, etc.

I always taught my students to do this. Firstly to appreciate just how helpful everyone is, and secondly to encourage the student to use 121.5 promptly if they ever need it.

Just keep your airmanship going and don't switch off the old brainbox, because when you've finished you'll need to continue aviating and navigating.

[mad_jock]

Very very good suggestion TD&H.

D&D who are on 121.5 I have been told encourage practise pans for their own benifit more than anything else. I have never had a problem with practise pans and sometimes you get a call afterwards asking if it was good for you :D.

I must admit I was a bit wary the first time I tried it.

I would check the wx for the whole of the UK before you have a go. If there are large areas with fog, but not yours of course :D. They might be a bit busy on the landlines. But if you do try and they give you a knockback, don't take it personally they are just busy on the landlines. Try again another day.

MJ

[FlyingForFun]

Out of interest, what would D&D do with a practice pan where the scenario is, say, accidental entry into IMC? It's pretty obvious how they'd handle some scenarios, e.g. uncertainty of position, but others must be quite difficult to "imagine" when it's not real?

FFF
---------------

[alphaalpha]

Mad Jock:

I visited D&D at West Drayton about a year ago and was suitably impressed. They made the point that they do welcome Practice Pans.

So, travelling back from Ireland to Kemble via Haverfordwest we decided to put it to the test. About 30 miles east of Haverfordwest at F055 or F075 (I forget which), we called for practice pan, simulating lost. We were given a squawk and the position fix came quickly and was verified as accurate by GPS. With D&D's permission we continued the simulated emergency by requesting vectors for Swansea. Over the next ten minutes, we were vectored exactly overhead the airfield with increasingly small and frequent heading changes as we got closer. Final position was spot on, confirmed by looking down. D&D used radar, I think the feed was from Clee Hill. If I remember correctly, they can switch-in feed from any one of many radar heads, giving tremendous flexibility,

Had we really been lost and needed help to find the airport, it would have been very easy for the pilot. No doubt the same result could have been achieved at many radar units, although I'm not sure how low we could have operated and still be given vectors.

AA.

[eastern wiseguy]

practice pan where the scenario is, say, accidental entry into IMC?

not really a practice then is it? If I get PAN PAN PAN it will get my attention ...say what you REALLY mean:ok:

[FlyingForFun]

Wiseguy,

Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I'll see if I can describe what I mean better.

Imagine you're flying along, perfectly happy that you know where you are. You call up D&D, ask for a Practice Pan, and tell them you're uncertain of your position - not because you are uncertain of your position (because you're not), but maybe because you're an instructor demonstrating to a student what they can do for you. As alphaalpha describes, they will treat you as if you are unsure of your position, give you a fix, and vector you if you ask them to.

Now, imagine you are flying along on a beautifully clear VMC day. you call up D&D, ask for a Practice Pan, and tell them that you've inadvertantly entered IMC - not because you have entered VMC - you haven't (and if you had, I agree that it would be a Pan Pan, not a Practice Pan), but because you want to give them some practice, or show a student pilot what they can do for you. This, I think, is what TD&H was suggesting a few posts back. What would they do in this situation?

Sorry if my original question wasn't clear! And if it still isn't clear... well, don't worry, because it's probably not an important enough question to spend too much time on!

FFF
---------------

[mad_jock]

We have a few more problems in the highlands, due mostly to lossie claiming there radar is better than it really is. So D&D have to work on DF which with all that high ground is pretty pants. But even so it all still works.

Go for it be confident, keep in practise, use ATC for what the are good at.

As I tried to hint at earlier they are speaking from the same script as the pilots. They like nothing better than getting an aircraft on the ground safely. It justifes their jobs for gods sake. If us pilots could managed to organise ourselves properly and manage to avoid each other without their help they would be outa work :D

And have to spend more time with thier wifes which wouldn't go down well.

You should stop thinking them and us. Although there is a debate about who is requesting a service and who is controlling a flight. All the real proffessionals know its a team game we all have to work together.

I know for a fact if I was on freq with a PPL who was in trouble and needed a Instructer type voice to calm things down. The capt would go single crew ops until flight safety would be effected and we wouldn't get a bollocking for doing it.

EVERYONE wants to help.

MJ

[Dances with Boffins]

I got taught to fly by Her Majesty's official flying club. We declared some sort of practise emergency on practically every trip [including calling D&D]. This meant that when the wheels came off for real, we just dialled straight into "Guard" [that's 243.0 to Mil, or 121.5 to civvies] and used the full range of ATC options available without a second thought. Lost, faulty aeroplane, didn't matter. The simple fact is that we were used to doing it, so didn't have to think twice.
I've flown puddle-jumpers here and in the U.S. since leaving the forces, and have always been bemused by the reluctance of most PPLs to call for help. I would urge any flight instructors to regularly get their students to practise various emergencies, using the recomended MO for the "Practice Pan" call in a TD&H's post. Once they know that they won't get bitten by ATC for doing so, they will have the confidence to make the call early enough if things ever go pear-shaped, and thus give ATC a chance to save their sorry butts. :cool:

[Timothy]

No Brits answered my question about 121.5.

What is the situation here?

W

[Hippy]

W Collins asks questions about 121.5 and the right to transmitt and/or be the Controlling Authority.

I am led to believe that the UK is the only state world-wide that has a control position (namely 'D&D' in the case of both our FIRs), soley dedicated to the task of monitoring 121.5 & 243.0 and retaining executive control over all distress situations whithin their area of responsability. Therefore, what follows applies to UK airspace only. Furthermore, I can only comment as someone outside D&D, but the way I have been taught is that D&D retain executive control of all emergency situations within their FIR. Any other controller finding himself working distress traffic (on any frequency) should inform D&D as soon as practicable. I have never come across any responce other than that the unit working the emergency traffic at that time is ceded operational control by D&D, but they will be doing a lot of admin behind the scenes on your behalf.

As for transmitting on 'guard', the situation is thus: Any call on 'guard' should be answered by D&D. If it is obvious that neither they or anyone else is responding and you are in a position to offer assistance (either directly or by message relay) then you should. This applies equally wether you be a ground station or an aircraft.

Additionally, any unit can request through D&D the use of 'guard' to contact an aircraft they have lost communications with.

On the subject of practice calls from aircraft to D&D, certainly a good idea and TD&H makes some extremely valid points: Listen out first in case a real emergency is on-going, inform the unit you are working (if any) what you are doing and think up a good scenario before-hand. Mad-Jock points out that a foggy day might not be the best time to do this, but equally neither is a cast-iron VFR bank-holiday week-end (imagine how tiresome the forty-eighth practise pan for that hour can be!) Go for a boring, grey, mid-week afternoon when we could all use a bit of artificial excitment to see us through to the end of the watch!

A very interesting thread with av8boy proffering more good advice & common sense than any one person should be rightfully entitled to!

[Timothy]

Hippy

Thank you :ok:

W