CAA & Pricing

[ACW 335]

Disclaimer:
Apologies if this thread has been discussed to death already or is posted elsewhere (I did do a search but to no avail!) - Feel free to delete thread or shoot me or just re-direct me to the original thread :)

Just wanted other peoples views on th CAA.

I think they are overpriced for what they do; especially as they monopolise Aviation in the UK - they haven't got a single competitor, yet they still feel they can charge £146 for a brown book and a few bits of paper which they don't even put in the book for you?
£70-£80 for a rating to be added? In my opinion, again it is overpriced just for a bit of ink to be added?

I fully understand that aviation is expensive....is there anyone who can enlighten me on where all this money goes to in the CAA liscening dpt. and why the prices are so high?

I was just a bit gobsmacked having paid £150 instructor hire for Skills test, £289 for aircraft hire for skills test AND then to have to pay £146 for a little brown book

"We're not happy til you're not happy"

[IO540]

This sort of question was put to a CAA representative at a recent meeting I went to, and his reply was, basically, that they have to be self financing.

Whether the CAA should be in charge of GA (rather than delegating it to another organisation like the PFA, is a worthwhile argument.

Come to think of it, they could throw in the towel and allow the FAA to do the work - we would all fly N-reg planes and instead of the IMC Rating we would have the FAA IR (much more useful) :O

[Genghis the Engineer]

Speaking as somebody who works on the design and certification side of the shop, you pilot chappies get a good deal.

If you want to set up an aircraft manufacturer, CAA's time spent deciding if you are competent is charged at £151 per hour. To vary your approval - the same. Once you're approved to look at your designs, £131/hr.

And yes, they do pay their staff rather more than anybody in the industry - a working level design surveyor is probably paid more than the Chief Engineer of pretty much anybody in the light aircraft industry.

Me I'm all for delegating as much as possible to PFA, BGA, BMAA, BBAC and anybody else competent. FAA - nah.

G

[Keef]

Bit like the comment in "What Goes Up" about the army being self-financing.

It's not the CAA's fault - they're doing what Government tells them they have to do. We could argue forever as to whether or not it's right, couldn't we?

I would like to see the prices constrained by a test of reasonableness: if it takes one bureaucrat 10 minutes to check the entries and issue a licence, what's a reasonable fee? Should it also carry the cost of all the things the CAA does that can't be charged out?

One day, those responsible might realise that those who fly aren't rich playboys...
Oh rats, we've heard all that before.

[StrateandLevel]

The CAA are charged by Government to regulate aviation in order to guarantee minimum levels of safety. They are required to recover all their costs from the industry they regulate, and are not permitted to make a profit.

In some areas there is compettion:

CAA PPL £146
NPPL administered by NPPLG £131

Flight Instructor renewal with CAA Staff Examiner £153
Flight Instructor renewal with Industry Examiner £190
Flight Instructor renewal with BMAA Examiner £170

PPL Skill Test with CAA Staff Examiner £153
PPL Skill Test with average club examiner £160

[Flap40]

I suspect that you will find that most of the money ends up on the top floor, east side, north end of the "Belgrano" (unless they have moved the canteen since the last time I was there!);)

[Vedeneyev]

An example of the CAA's completely arbitrary pricing structure:

£50 to register an aircraft.
£200 to register an aircraft out of sequence.

WHY?!

I could understand if there was a market for registrations eg with cars, but there isn't. Is it really £150 of extra work to issue an out of sequence registration? The fee structure is agreed by the DfT Minister but on what basis nobody knows.... Don't get me started on CofA fees, Star Annuals, License renewals etc...

So I did a bit of research through the CAA's 2002 Annual Report.

The CAA is charged by the DfT with making a positive return on capital employed (that target is not disclosed). In the year 2002 however a concession was granted and this was reset to 0% after 9/11 and this 'target' was achieved (in the previous year the CAA made an operating profit of £59.6m).

So the CAA in 2002 was breakeven. Well the main reason for this if you look at the numbers is that Labour costs were 34.3% of the CAA's operating costs (£52.1m in total, £607,500 of which went to the 14 Board Members). The average number of employees throughout the year in 2002 was 1,082. I'm no rocket scientist but that equates to an average salary of £48,150.

£48,150 a year!

I'm sure most pruners work in the real commercial world. Could you achieve what the CAA achieves on £48,150 a year?! Of course you could. It's one of the biggest gravy trains outside of the European Union.

I've heard morale's not too high round at Aviation House now that they're not pushing their own paper around but pushing EASA's for them instead - but I'd quite happily push someone else's paper around per £48,150 a year thank you very much....

It really gets my goat that I, we, and all air travellers are paying for this poor-value-for-money meal ticket.

[In Altissimus]

Er, Vedeneyev,

I'm no CAA apologist, but you can't simply divide operating costs by employees to get average salaries. Staff have to be accommodated, heated, pensioned, etc, etc, etc...

[Vedeneyev]

To clarify, I'm no accountant but heating and buildings costs are accounted for on different lines of a P&L Statement - 'Labour Costs' are direct costs of employee compensation. The £52.1m I quoted are down as 'Labour Costs', which are 34.3% of Operating Costs (which therefore total £151.9m)...

[bar shaker]

Which kind of makes you wonder what the other £99,800,000 is spent on.

Mind you if we think this is a tax on flying, wait until our ATC bills start arriving, shortly after March 2008.

All of those Mode S units will require additional radar installations and additional controllers to monitor the traffic now shown on screen.

Should we have a poll as to where the funding of this might come from?

[Zlin526]

One license issue takes up the time of several staff. Licensing chaps to do the work, Head chap to sign things, Admin section to post it, all these costs add up. When I applied for my license in 1983, I took it to Kingsway, waited for it to be issued( It actually happened in those days) and was then relieved of £80.00. I think thats a similar amount considering inflation etc.

The CAA's major funding comes from major players in the industry such as BA etc. After September 11th, and the temporary downturn in airline business, the CAA were reportedly cutting back like crazy, to avoid a budgetary crisis internally! They are required by HMG to break even, and even to make a small operating profit



Flaps40,

If you think that's where all the money goes, you obviously haven't been there recently. The standard of some food is ****e.

[G-KEST]

Hi there,
They pay my pension at the precommuted rate of 13.4 x final salary + 60 for which I am truly thankful. This since if I had relied on pension accrued in some16 additional years in GA as a CFI and Air Taxi driver I would have added precisely zero to what the CAA pays me. Now 65 my take home pension including the State element is just under £1000 per month. I own my home and the kids are long grown up so outgoings for my wife and I are fairly small to the extent that I can afford to have a 1/3 share in a PFA sport biplane AND I JUST LOVE IT. 20 minutes sheer bliss this afternoon. Thanks CAA for 13.4 years of pension accrual.
Trapper 69

It really is the government policy which means that the CAA must be funded by the industry. Apparently this stems from a speech made in Parliament in the very early 1920's by Winston Churchill when he stated in his wonderfully melifluous accent, "Civil aviation is now mature and MUST SYAND ALONE FINANCIALLY WITHOUT ANY GOVERNMENT SUBSIDY. So there. Its all his fault..!

Cheers:mad:

[WorkingHard]

G-KEST how lucky you are to have such a good pension after only 13.4 years service. You do not tell us what the gross amount is so let us assume you pay 40% tax this gives £20000 p.a. gross pension. Less say £5000 for state pension then we know where the money goes. Of course my assumptions are way off target and this is not directed at you personnaly but I'm sure people will see the possibilities.

[tacpot]

The fact the CAA operates facilities in the most expensive corner of England has to have an impact on their costs. Why have they not been encouraged to move northwards or westwards like other executive arms of government?

[Chilli Monster]

working hard

I should think someone who get's a net pension of less than £1000 a month is not paying tax at 40% - If they are then the rebate can buy the beers at the next pprune bash ;)

[WorkingHard]

CM - of course I take your point. Why do such quotes of money not refer to gross amounts? it is precisely because that give a HUGE amount more in information. And also remember that it was only pension quoted. there may be other income that does put the recipient into 40% and therefore the quote of penion at net values is seemingly "better"

[strafer]

The fact the CAA operates facilities in the most expensive corner of England has to have an impact on their costs. Why have they not been encouraged to move northwards or westwards like other executive arms of government?
But then 15 million people live in that corner of England whereas only about 12 people live in the whole of Staffordshire. Personally, I think they should move to Chiswick.

On a more serious note, why does the initial Class One have to be done at Gatwick? If they trust AMEs to do the renewals then surely the one with access to an EEG machine etc could do the original also?