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Gnadenburg
5th Dec 2003, 12:12
A "friend" divulged the following.

LCC was always going to be Impulse and QF management massaged them into a realiasation it was theirs. At times it was tough competiton with mainline but a sacrificing of a rise in conditions and pay for concrete seniority the benefit.

The deal also outmanoeuvred the possible threat from former AN 320 drivers.

Included in the deal the following-

1) Senoirity 1-130 to Impulse drivers including those retrenched.

2) The inevitable Direct Entry Captains will be asked to shift seats after a few years when junior Impulse pilots gain experience.

3) Qantas will pay for the conversion of all Impulse drivers' onto the 320( well done ).

4) Impulse Check & Training will be responsible for this role and not the rumoured exAN.

5) The LCC will be able to compete with other QF business, such as mainline & Australian, for new and expanded operations. My "friend" believed this to be Trans-Tasman.

6) If widebodies can eventually work there will be no restrictions.

7) Current over 60 Impulse pilots WILL be converted.

8) Overtime and efficiency will be renumerated bringing their pay above VB-just.

Opinions?

Here is mine anyway. These guys have stitched up a deal that has put their security ahead of conditions. I felt they could have gone for current pay plus 5% or 10%. QF Management played them beautifully and offered security etc.

I understand the Impulse guys a bit better now in consideration of the pretty solid long term security package for ALL THEIR MEMBERS. AIPA food for thought?

Considering an un-employed Impulse driver will now be a 320 skipper in 3 years! I would feel warm and fuzzy if I were in that group.

I have witnessed the expedience and self-serving nature of the Ansett Pilot Association and anecdotal of AIPA and long haul etc. So that is the nature of my positive sentiments.

Hopes!

Jetstar will provide an opportunity to Empire build for the Impulse pilots. Don't ignore the market as the QF/VB pilots have done.

It can bite.

Impulse pilots have their 320 training paid for. So now absorb some of the market! The 320 qualified is drying up real quick and doing this will stabilise/improve conditions abroad and in an abstract way at home! There will be Impulse attrition to better paid overseas jobs and consequential crew replacing pressures, which help in EBA's - SO LOOK AFTER THAT MARKET!


Think laterally! Management wont want this as to have you proven and replacable, by the inexperienced, a powerful weapon-89, VB etc.

Good luck and NO I don't want to work for you! Realise the market!

Wizofoz
5th Dec 2003, 15:39
Impulse guys should print off the above post and frame it. VERY wise words indeed.

To me, the mainline guys were typified by Jake-the-muss coming on here with "It will be mainline because no-one else is good enough". COMPLETE head in the sand stuff. (I notice he's become VERY quiet).

The way forward is to stich up the deal, then go for incremental improvements. Management is by nature short sighted. If a moderate rise in pay and conditions will keep industrial harmony and ensure a profit THIS year, they will do it THIS year, and then again NEXT year. Little at a time, and don't price yourself out of the market.

Oh, and DON'T start an agressive campaign for a 29.7% pay rise in one go. It don't work.

I would add one thing though. If Jetstar is paying for it's pilots type ratings, and is instilling a seniority list, it is ALREADY breaking the low cost model. Ditto if it even CONSIDERING a second type and long haul ops. Interesting times...

Gnadenburg
5th Dec 2003, 16:08
Wiz

IMHO the seniority a masterstroke by Impulse pilots.

It has ensured a united pilot body, as all Impulse pilots have been looked after, aswell as outmanoeuvring the already Airbus qualified-whether they ex-AN or wherever.

QF would receive Airbus training credits so why not endorse Impulse crew?

QF is happy-super competitive wage structure.

Impulse pilots happy- it is their baby and no one elses. With the masterstroke of seniority!

Senior Impulse pilots may have been able to afford better conditions in negotiations. Am I a romantic and does it look as though they have looked after their entire pilot group? With the sacrifice of pay for seniority.

Patriot One
5th Dec 2003, 16:23
Sorry to disappoint...but there isn't a chance in hell that QF will pay for Impulse Pilots to be trained on the A320.

Even if you ignore the obvious issues around cost, ask yourselves when was QF ever this generous.

I would say your "friend" is in dreamland - probably works for that other epitome of airline excellence for pilot conditions - VB.

Dale Harris
5th Dec 2003, 16:51
QF will pay for it. It'll be part of the aircraft deal with Airbus, you can bet on that.

HGW
5th Dec 2003, 16:58
Patriot One

I will take your info the same as all the others that said it would be QF mainline pilots only. Uninformed dribble.

I can understand why the Impulse pilots signed up for Jetstar when you get spat on by their QF pilot buddies.

Who is laughing now you pompous gits.

Wizofoz
5th Dec 2003, 17:34
Patriot,

By choosing to go with Impulse as a vehicle, they committed themselves to training the existing crew. They can't sack them and employ rated pilots under industrial law.

Had they gone green fields they could have made a type rating a pre-requisite.

FatEric
5th Dec 2003, 17:57
QF will be doing all in its power to ensure as little training and seatswapping occurs.

Many commands will come from off the street and will be hesitant to leave the jobs they presently have (vietnam,dragon,silk etc) unless they stay LHS.

I am sure many inpulse drivers will be ready to jump up to the LHS of the bus - its not difficult to fly - but many will be short on experience.

Capt Fathom
5th Dec 2003, 19:05
You may have noticed on another thread that Emirates is having some difficulty attracting Direct Entry Captains, due mainly to the woeful pay and conditions being offered.
Emirates (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=106248&highlight=Emirates)
It is good to see people finally digging their heels in. It's a pity it's not happening here!
RIP the salary & conditions of all pilots in Australia.
A short term gain by the greedy few at the expense of everyone who follows. :ouch:
Has a familar ring to it! :yuk:

chief wiggum
5th Dec 2003, 21:35
QF will pay for it. It'll be part of the aircraft deal with Airbus, you can bet on that


Do you really think that just because QF gets it for free that they will pass it on to the "public" when the COULD make money out of it " ?

When a body such as the IPG say "hey... here we are.. we are bending over, do to us what you will...is this far enuff?" .. do you honestly think that QF will say "... no, that's ok, stand up, put your trousers back on, we will pay for your endorsement because it wont COST us ! ... ?????????"

The IPG has , once again, screwed the industry, taken pilots wages back 10 years, and overridden any gains the QF pilots union may have made just to secure the conditions of a select few.

See what happens when you have no backbone from the outset ???....
Had IMPULSE pilots stood up for FAIR wages and conditions from the beginning, then they probably would be getting paid 30-50% more than what they will be shortly.... AND not F**king it up for every wannabe in the future!!!!

and all this to drive a 1900 for 27K!!!!!!!

good one guys!.. what next ???? Cadets to work at Macca's wages???? F/O's to drive toilet trucks as part of the award ???? F/A's to wash planes on their days off ?

the word "SPINELESS" jumps to the forefront of my mnd! as well as "BROWN-NOSE", "CRAWLER" , "GIT" , etc etc.......

please please PLEASE... do yourselves and the industry a favor and DEMAND to be paid what you are worth/entitled to!!!!

Gnadenburg
5th Dec 2003, 23:13
Bunch of schoolgirls-especially you Patriot. Doesn't QF pay for endorsements now?

Impulse has blown all out of the water. Some serious competition too. QF & AIPA and the remnants of the AN A320 community.

The overtime rate will bring Captains up to the 160K mark. Looking at base rates two dimensional.

I think Impulse pilots will stay put for a few years. Then some attrition to well paid jobs abroad. The exodus out of QF the overqualified and highly experienced S/O's.

The sums for the bottom 200 at QF Mainline cruel. Time to Command and what will the state of aviation affairs be at this time? In this case and ambitiously, say around 10 years. Big gamble for the motivated type that make the QF grade!

FatEric

I don't think you realise the ramifications of the stitch up of seniority and the A320 timeframe of introduction. Impulse may not need that many DE Commands. Did AirNZ with it's recent introduction? Sure the numbers different but..

Seat swapping is very cheap for QF considering the deal they have got.

Impulse pilots- either very smart with the above stitch up or, once again, the most fortunate pilots in Australian aviation!

golow
6th Dec 2003, 07:55
Impulse pilots will get A320 rating free of charge. New pilots will have to pay I think $20000. It would be great if they didn't have to pay. Yes pay is low but what choice did we have, NONE.
Only 9 months ago 10 pilots were having a drink together. We all said we should be with AIPA so the next day we rung them up. What did they say, well its only Qantas mainline because the I in AIPA stands for International and we don't fly international. They told us to join AFAP, some did. I still think most of the pilots would join AIPA if they would let us and the IPG is talking to them to see what they offer.

FatEric
6th Dec 2003, 09:00
"Doesn’t Qantas pay for endorsements now”?

Why - because industrially they have little choice. When AN folded and QF expanded rapidly to fill the void, only a small % of Ansett pilots were employed by QF. Type rated/experienced and ready to go but because of dinosaur like industrial baggage, 737 checkies were employed as 744 S/O's. Seniority as a result of strong unions effectively requires QF to pay for endorsements This is madness that only pervades the airline scene in Oz.

This is one benefit QF will get from LCC – employ type rated people to fill left or right seat as the need dictates. Waste little money on training - its already done.

Strong-arm unions have had their day in the Oz airline scene.

Z Force
6th Dec 2003, 10:21
FatEric, why should pilots have to pay for their own endorsements? When the employer endorses them at least they are all to a common standard.

FatEric
6th Dec 2003, 10:30
Z force,

I don’t think pilots should have to pay for their own endorsements. Jetstar will easily find type rated guys on the street – Ex AN,Dragon,Gulf, Qatar etc. That’s my whole point – Jetstar could introduce the A320 without having to type rate anybody. Makes a lot of business sense to me.

Gnadenburg
6th Dec 2003, 11:58
Eric

QF will get a lot of free training with their order. Why not qualify Impulse drivers for free?

And they will so that leaves 70 Airbus slots.

75% ex-AN 320 F/O's content. So 25 or so interested in Jetstar. I would suggest most ex-AN Captains interested so that number roughly 75ish.

Australians in CX, EK and many others may pay for CCQ to come home.

70 slots and hundreds of takers. I predict a handful of our former AN colleagues employed on the Flight Deck but many elsewhere- Ground Staff, F/A's ect.

Strong arm unions have had their day. Remember though, you can only vote with your feet for so long, somebody will have to draw a line in the sand. We can't, jail here, but the guys at home can.

golow

It is a shame there was little help from AIPA. Learn from their mistakes.

One day a few Impulse guys will wake up on a dreary Victorian day, look at the window over the wind swept Sunbury plains, not be able to face another 4 sector day(no overnights) and think there a better life .

There is and the Airbus pilot market abroad is strengthening.

Strengthenen it further! Suck up some of the demand. Fill the slots with qualified Airbus drivers from abroad. Not just ex-AN but CX, EK etc.

In a small way you will help pilot conditions.

AN collapsed and QF replaced the displaced AN drivers from elsewhere. Just look at this in the context of pilot market forces and no other way. A pool of highly qualified pilots allowed crappy outfits like Jetconnect flourish.

All of a sudden QF pilots uncompetitive! Jetconnect-VB the benchmark and Impulse the resultant.

The market will serve you but you must serve the market. Recruit the qualified Airbus drivers slots 130 onward!

Don't have a long haul view of the world.

vigi-one
6th Dec 2003, 12:54
G-Burg

why not 70 slots for NJS and Q Regionals surely they have same experience if not more as most in Pulse?

Yawn
6th Dec 2003, 12:59
AS much as I hate to pay out for an endorcement can you really blame the companies?

If JetStar, VB, JetConnect etc were to pay you for your endorcement is it an investment or an expense for the company or the pilot?

I would argue that it is an investment for a pilot to gain an endorcement as it can lead to a job with a high wage, better security or lifestyle (particularly if it is paid back over three years VB style).

For a company it is just wasted cashflow because at the moment there is no way of protecting their investment. And most importantly, the pilot can take the endorcemnt with him/her to another airline but an airline cannot tranfer the training to another employee.

The reason I say this is that JetStar could endorce you on an Airbus and the next day you could leave for another airline (Brunei, Dragon etc) and the company has just seen $40,000 walk out the door with no recourse. How many pilots have untaken training with regional airlines only to walk out the door a month latter when QF or CX have called.

If the bond system was enforceable, and enforceable not just in Australia but worldwide, then it would be a different agrument but at the moment this is the only way companies can protect their investment/cashflow.

Pilots who have undertaken training only to leave for greener pastures would have to shoulder a lot of the blame for the attitude of airline companies around the world.

Can you really blame them?

DJ737
6th Dec 2003, 13:48
If i want to drive a truck, the company would expect me to apply with a HR/MR endorsement on my license...why should it be any different for airline pilots?

DJ 737
The Roo Rooter :E :ok:

Hugh Jarse
6th Dec 2003, 13:57
The way forward is to stich up the deal, then go for incremental improvements. Management is by nature short sighted. If a moderate rise in pay and conditions will keep industrial harmony and ensure a profit THIS year, they will do it THIS year, and then again NEXT year. Little at a time, and don't price yourself out of the market.

Wizofoz, if you worked within the QF group you would know that they will only give you what they see fit in EBA negs. Currently, employees throughout the entire group are lucky to match the CPI, ie 3% per annum. And you have to sell your first born to get that ;) QF staff will be very lucky to keep pace with CPI, let alone make "incremental improvements" as you wrote.

They achieve this by keeping the employee groups within the different business units fragmented and competitive against each other. Quite brilliant when you sit back and think about it...

Gnadenburg
6th Dec 2003, 14:43
Roo Rooter

Are you justifying the conditions you have halved?

I think CASA should "watch" carefully the standard of bare endorsement purchased aswell.

Pilot error due mode confusion and CFIT has cost three Airbus operators. Good endorsement training essential.

A CASA standard should be set. It may well be expensive but the Virgin Blue intro standard you get away with x amount of times.

Anecdotal evidence the VB intro from previous jet airline pilots.

Vigi-one

Geoff Dixon needs you! He will throw RJ's your way and watch you guys undercut each other.

Hugh jarse

You watch Australian and Jetstar fight it out for business in the future.

Douglas Mcdonnell
6th Dec 2003, 20:40
Vigi One. That experience tree has been well and truly barked up before. Experience levels are certainly not an issue. "Do unto others" I think the good book says!!

On a really great note. Welcome back to the once redundant gentlemen. You have always been in the picture and were never going to be left behind.

Congratulations and get ready for a very positive time indeed.

All the best whilst training.

Cheereo DM

PPRuNe Towers
7th Dec 2003, 00:50
DM, seeing as we live in the same hotel for extended periods I was wondering if I could be cheeky and ask if you are Airbus rated? Other than the crippling seats I can't think of a better 'office' for intensive, low cost ops.

However, for safety's sake alone I'd be pushing for a very strong corps/core of AI experienced folks in from the outset. Fine, keep the group at the same size while deliveries grow but definitely keep them there for the practical knowledge base essential for operational integrity.

Induction of the type presents a few years of perpetual suprises and an entirely more diligent chasing/maintaining of technical knowledge by all.

You've either updated Fcoms for a living or you haven't. It's different, not bad just very different.

PS Have we met in the 10th floor lounge???? Lousy choice of beer there but it is all free :E :E :E

Regards
Rob Lloyd

VB_Capt
7th Dec 2003, 06:36
Golow, what more can anybody say?? The I stands for International!! Indeed it does you arrogant turds at QF. Any wonder they are treat edwith contempt by otherpilots. They re good at handing itout.
HughJarse, You re saying what I have been for years. You only get what the employer wants to give you. Bleating heere about not joining VB, PB, JS or whoever to force them to up salaries only puts whoever espouses it in the dreamer class. They don t even make the idealist sector I`m afraid to say, just dreamers.

DJ737, much as I hate to agree, I do. I think, no, I KNOW, that what wereonce considered traditional conditions, ie. endorsements provided are changing. If the ad in the Weekend Australioan calls for a degree and three years post grad work,then thats what they want to hear from, not some jerk with leaving and a builders labourers ticket.

Hugh Jarse
7th Dec 2003, 07:09
I thought that AIPA stood for Australian and International etc etc?

Naverick
7th Dec 2003, 10:08
QF are required by statute to provide training at their own expense for existing employees. It's in the CAR's, sorry can't remember the section but read it recently.

Great news for the guys & girls at Impulse!

Douglas Mcdonnell
7th Dec 2003, 11:51
Gday Towers. Certainly a poor choice of beer but as you say its free!! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm free beer.

The seats are hard as life is sometimes. The endorsements will be on a standard bond type arrangement. All new comers after the current pilot group will have to be rated.

Just reward for a very solid group of aviators who, depite the years of being slagged by other "profesionals" , have stood their ground and achieved a good result for all of their members!

You dont see that too much in this country any more. The heads down and work hard mentality is the winner!

Cheers DM

Whiskery
7th Dec 2003, 12:14
Gnadenberg, it was not Virgin Blue that started the "rot" on aircrew wages and conditions.
Roo Rooter

Are you justifying the conditions you have halved?


In fact, Warren Seymor started all this back in the early '90s with the original National Jet Systems. Then we had Compass MKII and Impulse. Even AAE were only paying their 727 Captains $80K and F/Os $60K until 12 months ago.

I do agree with your sentiments re: Airbus endorsements. CASA would be wise to monitor this closely for the reasons you stated.

Gnadenburg
7th Dec 2003, 15:31
Pprune Towers & Whiskery

Thanks for the backup.

All too often pilots mistake the "gentle" handling qualities of Airbus aircraft as an indication of how manageable the aircraft is in abnormal situations or a rugged day on the line.

It has it's own unique set of challenges.

It is very different and can be very confusing. Mode confusion ( What's it doing now? ) is not uncommon amongst newly converted Boeing pilots for some time after conversion.

The "gentle" handling qualities still see some Airbus pilots struggle with a basic raw data ILS- is it the PFD presentation or the perishable nature of basic flying skills?

Procedurally the aircraft can be confusing. Abnormals not so clear and subject to interpretation on occassion. This is a big problem on a multi-cultural flight deck or even in a situation where the cockpit gradient steep.

On a bad day, with a bad crew (lowest common denominator) and the product of a bad endorsement........the wonderful plane SHOULD still save the day. Air Inter, Gulf Air, Air India & a few Test Pilots the aberrations.

CASA doesn't need to take this risk and I hope the new boss not too Virginised by his previous post.

Will Impulse pilots get excellent A320 training? I think so. No excuses not to - it comes with the purchase.

Will positions 130- onward? This is the risk and the responsibility of the IPG and CASA. No Virgin Blue "off to the USA for 14 days" jet training. This would be irresponsible of both parties.

IPG has won seniority. Win the training package and hopefully conditions will eventually follow.


Dougless Mcdonnell

The trap for you is the Empire you build. Can you handle experienced Airbus pilots from seniority 130 onwards?

Or will politics see your group neglect the market ( as QF & VB did ) and leave a pool of experienced pilots out there to threaten your future conditions with expertise to start a third discount airline. Or just a reminder to management of how replacable you are?

Think laterally! Don't think like Long Haul!

FatEric
7th Dec 2003, 16:05
In my outfit, pilots with 200 hours and crap training manage to pole it around without bumping into things. Similar to a lot of airlines in Europe, the Middle East and most in Asia. Its probably easier to fly than a 717 or even a twin turbo prop single pilot.

Many operators make it harder than it really is - just follow the Airbus way - its designed to be flown by beginners.

Having said that, I am no ace. it still bites you on the ring every now and then to make sure you are concentrating - just like every aircraft will.

Gnadenburg
7th Dec 2003, 16:30
Well then, I sure hope you enjoy your present job Eric as your expertise not needed at home! Or anywhere else by your own appraisal of things.

You have to be kidding. Airbus has a disproportionate history of CFIT attributed to mode confusion.

A technological evolution yes- look at the CPIP with Air Inter crash in Strasbourg- FPA adjusted to prevent "confusion".

Gulf Air crash in Bahrain-CPIP with Flight Directors ON with TOGA to prevent disorientation ( due PFD presentation and illusion ).

Air India in Bangalore- CPIP Flight Directors and speed mode etc.

More recently, an A330 with Phillipine Airlines came close to being another Airbus CFIT statistic in Agana, Guam.

You missed my point- it is easy to pole but can be difficult to MANAGE-explaining CFIT.

Some of your posts indicate that Airbus uses technology to eclipse experience. Be careful. This may erode your conditions and limit the opportunity to come home.

If your right, Impulse won't need any experienced Airbus pilots at all. Technology replaces experience in terms of seniority 130 onward.

I think your wrong, belittling the profession and ignoring the safety issues of introducing very different technology.

FatEric
7th Dec 2003, 17:55
Gnadenburg

There was a time when working for Ansett that I thought experience was vitally important.

Having moved to the big wide world I now realize that my thousands of hours of Airbus experience count for little with many operators. I am just an FO and have no more value than the 200-hour cadet.

I don’t enjoy my present job gnad, thanks for your concern and if asked, would consider moving back to oz to work for LCC.

BUT – I also realize that the fellahs at Impulse will be able to get the Airbus up and running without to much help – probably with greater ease than when AN first purchased the 320 back in ye olden days. The transition from glass 717 to 320 will probably be easier than the old folks at AN going 727 to 320. How many direct entry type rated people did AN need to employ back when the bus arrived. Bubkis. Zero. Donut. Zip. Nada. The big donut.

Many crashes you refer to were years ago when the technology in the 320 was new and completely unfamiliar to most pilots. AI was totally un prepared for the misunderstandings that occurred on line that resulted in Airbus accidents. Most of these accidents have been resolved through better training, better manuals and hardware/software upgrades. Some of the later accidents you refer to will happen in an airbus, a Boeing or even on your uncle’s bicycle. What you and I are usually unaware of is how many accidents were avoided as a RESULT of the level of technology in FBW aircraft – 777 included. I would suggest the number is very high.

Yes it’s easy to pole and I also think when operated correctly it’s no harder to manage than most aeroplanes. The ease of hand flying gives more time to the pilot to manage the operation.

“Some of your posts indicate that Airbus uses technology to eclipse experience. . . “

It does. Of course technology is utilized to enable airlines to make use of a lowering of experience in the industry since the sixties. The skill sets required to fly an A320 are far less than those required to fly an older generation of aircraft. Take a look at the number of accidents with 737/727/707/DC9/DC8 aircraft from 1960 –1980 compared to these days. The accident rate is far lower.

“ . . . Be careful. This may erode your conditions and limit the opportunity to come home.”

Yes. You are correct. But how will my “being careful” increase the opportunity to “come home”.

“I think your wrong, belittling the profession and ignoring the safety issues of introducing very different technology”

Firstly, I have in no way indicated that I would suggest ignoring safety issues. I hope that Impulse pilots are trained to a high standard – nothing so far suggests that they will not be.

Secondly, I am not belittling our profession – I am being realistic. In most parts of the world, pilots are recruited to fly glass jets with little or no previous experience. Some of the world’s safest airlines recruit mostly cadet pilots. It is a fact that in many airlines, the FO flying you to your holiday destination in your A320 or 777 was in university 2 years ago wondering what an airliner looked like.

My comments regarding Impulse pilots being short on experience were in regard to 1900 drivers – I doubt they will be allowed to jump into the LHS of the bus.

Gnadenburg
8th Dec 2003, 12:00
Impulse will get 23 A320's with options for 20. Pilot group now 130 to become 210ish. Commands now 70ish to become 110ish. There will be a transitional phase of 717 & 320 operations placing further pressures. Commercial pressures will be significant too, as Jetstar a counter attack on Dixon's low cost nemesis Virgin Blue.

Your arguments more Devil's Advocate and a glass half empty.

The Cadet programme you allude to I am familar with as well. 200 hour local pilots and more a very slow and commercially unrealistic nationalisation programme. Jetstar needs Captains real quick. DE Captains mentioned indicates Impulse is already getting help.

A seemingly RHS slant on your sentiments. Sure, a 320 F/O can be done to an extent by a cadet. What about a Captain? How long does a 200 hour take to become a Commander? I have witnessed 9 years and with a 30% failure rate. This is not viable commercially for anything but Flag carriers- EXPERIENCE means something in the dynamics of the pilot market.

Ansett an impertinent reference. Zero DE's because a replacement and a pool of Captains to be trained. Jetstar doubling Impulse in size aswell as the above mentioned pressures.

Impulse will get good A320 training. But I am pushing the same level of training for seniority 130 onward. Solid ground course and sim. Not the Virgin Blue option and for a number of reasons- safety and what being so easliy replaced does to conditions.

Your mention of 777 reinforces my case point. 777 has not suffered the CFIT losses of Airbus. Obviously many reasons for this and lets not diverse. Airbus crashes every few years due some really strange reasons. 2000 was Gulf Air and the 330 near catastrophe very recent too.

Sheepishly, Airbus continues to modifiy software as a result of these events. As there are very real traps with the very different technology.

I think you are selling your experience short as the market demanding Airbus experience at the moment. A340 skipper can write a ticket anywhere and 320 F/O's are in demand in airlines that need pilots to upgrade quicker than your cadet programmes.

The glass is half full for Airbus pilots and I hope Impulse pilots help keep it that way.

Chimbu chuckles
8th Dec 2003, 12:20
As someone who knows one of the senior pilot negotiators at Impulse/Qlink I can assure you he, and they, are very smart operators when it comes time to talk to the company.

As for the age old Boeing/airbus debate. As someone in the middle of 767-300 transition training I have come to believe the following.

Boeing= Designed by geniuses to be flown by idiots. (Moi:} )

Airbus= Designed by idiots to be flown by geniuses.:E

Chuckles

FluffyBunnyFeet
8th Dec 2003, 12:31
Gnad's, I'm pleasantly suprised! An Impulse thread containing facts & analysis without the usual vitriolic tantrums. Hopefully the 'usual suspects' can refrain and/or present an objective view...

Interesting thoughts re the experienced 320 guys, also the potential pitfalls. I certainly won't be taking the beastie for granted when the time comes, don't imagine anyone will. I'd imagine the 1900 to 717 jump was larger - our DE help was, and still is, invaluable. Hopefully new DE's will contribute in a similar way, at the same time learning a few of the things our current pilot group have to teach.

Keep up the high signal/noise ratio!

Gnadenburg
8th Dec 2003, 16:46
A few more facts coming to light.

DE Commands will number around 30.

Initial Cadre of pilots trained on 320 for Jetstar will be present senior check & training, DE's & Unemployed Impulse 1900 pilots.

Ex Ansett A320 management pilots will not be required. Despite individual lobbying by the latter group.

The IPG will get it's expertise from elsewhere- internally ( 89ers have flown Airbus ), EK, CX? Bit early for CASA CCQ approval I would have thought.

Ex- Ansett pilots not required despite Dixon's indications that ex-AN employees to be heavily utilised. The politics has begun! Is it 89 or the threat & insecurity experience brings? Seniority should counter this but I always envisioned the Impulse Empire.

There is an indication from my "friend" that there is an aversion to recruit F/O's. Haven't understood this as the DE Commands takes the group to just below 160- a shortfall considering 23 A320s.

Where will the pilot shortfall be met?

I think the above reinforces the magnitude of the victory in terms of seniority. For a senior Impulse Capt has won security, an Impulse F/O has won a command and 40% payrise and the displaced 1900 pilots have won a career in an airline.

I still see a requirment for 40 F/O's. Min requirments and nepotism/cronyism may meet this demand but I was hoping for pilots to be taken out of the Airbus market abroad.

This every so slightly worsening the crewing situation at Airbus operators who advantaged post-Sept 11. This in turn improving, due supply & demand, the Airbus market abroad where 10% or so Impulse drivers will probably end up.

amos2
8th Dec 2003, 17:40
Oh Boy!...

as an ex 717,737 and A320 driver I have a real struggle keeping up with the drivel I'm reading here!

oicur12
8th Dec 2003, 17:44
Gnad,

Yippee. Woo Hoo. No need for Ex Ansett pilots.

Hooray.

Impulse can do what they like as far as operating the A320 but it appears that you are overjoyed at the fact that as few ex Ansett type rated pilots will be employed as possible. They are no different to any other pilot group but could at least offer some expertise in operating the aircraft. You actually contradict your own previous posts regarding this.

Most punters on the street would find it very odd for a new business venture to pay for expensive training for pilots who are currently unemployed when there are plenty of current type rated Australians willing to do the job.

Gnadenburg
8th Dec 2003, 17:46
I suppose you wouldn't be familar with a united pilot group Amos.:D

A lot of people under the impression they may well be coming home. Just versing them with the politics in current play.

No false hopes, you know the feeling of being abroad against your will. :ok:

Oicur

Don't get emotional on me. I am ex-AN 320 and am presenting what I have been told are the facts.

I would interpret my posts to former colleagues as a heads up.

1- Don't peeve your present employer thinking you will be home by Easter.

2- F/O's even if you do get in you will be a permamnet F/O due seniority. So push EK/KA etc.

I am only delighted in the fact a pilot group has stood together and looked after their own. I thought that is what AN management pilots and APA would be like once upon a time.

i have also advocated the IPG use Airbus experise from abroad, even if not ex-AN, as this will help in terms of supply and demand.

Ns
9th Dec 2003, 04:01
GONADS,

VB has not had any one do the dodgee US endorsements since July 2002, realising what people were paying for and getting they along with CASA, approved the ETA set up, and over 200 pilots have been through ETA attaining a high standard to the satisfaction of all concerned

Gnadenburg
9th Dec 2003, 12:28
Ns

Thank you for the frank admission as to the unsatisfactory quality of the initial Virgin Blue training.

Most well aware of the fact but the occassional young buck on pprune lept to the defence of the "14 day/USA" jet training.

If seniority 130 onward to pay for A320 endorsements, perhaps the regulator should have more to say. Approved training facilities etc. In light of the nature of a new start up and the Minimum requirments of 1000hours listed.

Air India pilots undertook a ground course twice the length of the industry standard. They still idled into the ground in Bangalore.

A good endorsement on the 320 very important.

It may serve Amos 2's politics to state otherwise.

Capt Basil Brush
9th Dec 2003, 18:35
Gnads,

Not having flown the 320 (but have flown A300/310, 767, NG plus a few others I want to forget about, ie 146) the general opinion from ex 320/330/340 pilots now flying the NG, seems to be the 320/330 etc is much easier to manage and operate. They consider the NG a handfull to master.

I am not defending the US Ratings (which the Septics will tell you how good they are, and how much bigger their aviation world is compared to our relatively small market, and it works fine for them etc etc and why does it take Australians 6 months to do a Rating etc) however you seem to harp on the fact that A320 training needs to be more than say, 717 or 737/NG training.
A good endorsement on any type is important, not just the A320.

I think you will find the 717 pilots will find the transition to the bus will go smoothly, without an Air India type Groundschool.

amos2
9th Dec 2003, 19:19
Gnadenburg is missing my point! probably because my post followed his he assumes I'm having a go at him...not so.

No politics or anything else implied Gnad.

What is implied tho is all the nonsence I'm reading re 717 drivers V 737 drivers V 320 drivers!

Any professional pilot flying any of these a/c will safely transition to any other of these a/c.

Why would anyone suggest otherwise? :confused:

Thunderbox
10th Dec 2003, 20:09
What a deal indeed! The Impulse boys falling over themselves to work for less... and they succeeded impressively.

Their negotiators must be slapping each others backs with glee, finally they snubbed their noses at those horrible mainline pilots, and at the same time mightily impressed GD, but doesn't that say it all.

You Impulse blokes have sealed a place for all time in the aviation hall of infamy.

A victory for sure, but most assuredly a pyyric one at that.

Chocks Away
12th Dec 2003, 07:18
...mmm... top word that one Thunderbox (Pyrrhic), just diffucult to spell. :p
(...It's probaly gone over their heads anyway...can't see the forest for the trees...):hmm:

Gnadenburg
12th Dec 2003, 17:11
Just my theory!

Impulse pilots have achieved a few understated positives. Especially considering we are talking about a LCC.

We have digressed so I will outline again.

1- SENIORITY.

2- COMPANY FUNDED CONVERSION ( Congrats to the 8 over 60's ).

3- ORIGINAL FLEET DOUBLED ( quadrupled if options taken ).

It is their baby and I believe they are in a good position to improve their conditions gradually because of this.

The positives revisited.

1 Seniority- a masterstroke. The unity of the pilot group guarranteed considering the nature of seniority and the way senior pilots have looked after junior pilots in the group. It is the senior pilots that have "preserved" their conditions only. A current Impulse F/O will get a 40% payrise as a Capt and the unemployed 1900 have been given a A320 RHS with career progression.

This is remarkable considering what i witnessed at Ansett and what has anecdotally been suggested with Senior QF Long Haul pilots and Senior QF Domestic pilots. " I'm alright Jack" springs to mind.

2 Company paid training. Instilled some value back into the profession.

It is up to the IPG to go further and I implore the following measures. Ensure seniority 130 onward current on 320 or gets the standard of Airbus training the IPG group offered by Airbus/QF. Despite cost.

Absorb some of the market. Whether ex-AN, CX or EK or wherever. This is vitally important for piloting conditions which are on an ever so slight cyclic upswing.

Airbus experience drying up. One operator gave a 20K a year tax free payrise recently because of this. Others may well be parking aircraft when they should be expanding! PRESERVE THIS!

Aswell, your competition in a globalised market ( with the Government continued desire to have open skies etc ) may be the Silk Air's of the world eventually . Don't make it easy for them!

Amos & Basil

Nothing to do with 717 versus NG versus 320. To do with Virgin Blue and what they got away with initially- inexperienced pilots with crap USA endorsements.

I don't believe 320 is an under 20 day endorsement considering the nature of the initial mishaps and the way the full Airbus endorsement programme addresses the odd vulnerabilities of the aircraft.

A digression but the point was more to instill value into the endorsement and not be replacable by Bankstown Boys and a 20 day jet conversion.

Thunderbox

A sore loser? Outmanoeuvred by IPG who now have seniority and a possible 43 jets!

If Dixon canned Impulse you woul not have cared. Another feeding frenzy for promotion with little regard and no assistance for displaced Impulse pilots.

Don't suggest otherwise.

Cadets would be recruited and the Impulse guys left on the street. The demise of Ansett witnessed similar. Aswell as the hypothetical analogy of AN and AirNZ. Air NZ washed their hands without taking any AN employees and IPG feared similar treatment from QF.

How much does a QF Domestic 767 F/O make compared to an Impulse 320 F/O on say, 800 hours?

Keg
12th Dec 2003, 19:31
Gnade, the general feeling amongst the pilot group is that the IPG guys and girls SHOULD have seniority on that aircraft type. The general consensus from AIPA members is that it is a QF 'group' aircraft and so QF group pilots should get first options prior to hiring from outside and that means slotting into the IPG seniorority at the bottom of their pile.

Whats in it for the IPG? Well, they don't decide who gets to fly the thing behind them anyway but if they as a group decide to join AIPA they get mainline seniorority (along with all the regional bretheren as well.) and a good chance of us ALL having a more secure future.

I've spoken to several COM members over the last few years about getting coverage of ALL QF group pilots by AIPA but the excuses have been thick on the ground. Well, we pay dearly for that lack of representation now with below 'standard' (read DJ) conditions on the aircraft. Sure, there will be a lot of IPG pilots who do well out of this with a good pay rise but had we been working together on this one then the result could have been a LOT better.

I don't blame the IPG like fartsock and others have done. I can understand entirely their position. People have been known to do some strange stuff when there is a gun to your head. I reckon this was certainly the case in the case of Jetstaf and the IPG.

It is in QFs best interests to keep the pilot groups 'at' each other and seperated- both from a 'cost' perspective and a 'bargaining' perspective. It is in ALL of OUR best interests to be represented under the one banner so that NO ONE has the gun put to their head ever again!

Douglas Mcdonnell
13th Dec 2003, 05:41
Thunder Box. You seemed to have missed the point. The IPG have acheived better conditions for all of us. Along with good security and most importantly, jobs for all of the guys waiting at the end of the list. Certainly a good result with 100% unity within the pilot group. Show me where that exists any where else in this country at the moment!!

Your complaining only falls on deaf ears. I would suggest you move on and start taking a look at your own situation instead of running others down.

I didnt see any one worried about the guys that were made redundant when they became unemployed. No special meetings and no posts railing against the injustice of it all. So the result is specialy sweet for these blokes.

Gnadenburg. Well put.

Cheers DM

Capt Basil Brush
13th Dec 2003, 06:04
Keg,

If the Jetstar pilots do the same hours as the DJ pilots, they may well come out in front due to no overtime at DJ.

Time for DJ crews to push for overtime in the next EBA, or be left at the bottom.

ur2
13th Dec 2003, 06:53
Is it realy a done deal?
Heard that yesterday talks broke down between Jetstar and AIPA.

Kaptin M
13th Dec 2003, 07:22
For a QF pilot whose command prospects could be directly influenced by Jet Star, you certainly hold a well balanced view on the matter, Keg, whilst - imo - AIPA have stuck their collective heads in the sand (or somewhere above their knees), by not allowing QANTAS regional pilots to join.
This has cost the AIPA junior membership dearly, in terms of their future prospects.
Keg's final paragraph tells why:It is in QFs best interests to keep the pilot groups 'at' each other and seperated- both from a 'cost' perspective and a 'bargaining' perspective. It is in ALL of OUR best interests to be represented under the one banner so that NO ONE has the gun put to their head ever again! I would suggest that the "one banner" for pilot representation would not include AIPA, based on past and present performances.

It surprises me that Jet Star will purportedly not be recruiting ex-Ansett A320 C&T people - and wait to see if, in actuality, it WILL be so. I can understand that just as Virgin Blue resisted taking too many ex-AN 737 pilots, following Ansett's collapse - to avoid introducing an Ansett "culture" into VB - Jet Star would similarly do likewise. However, as FatEric noted,
How many direct entry type rated people did AN need to employ back when the bus arrived. Bubkis. Zero. Donut. Zip. Nada. The big donut.

Could it be another case of QF management telling porkies??

As a matter of interest, is the "Seniority List" one that has been agreed to (in writing) by both parties? Or is it likely that Jet Star management are going to present their own, at an opportune time? :uhoh:

Chris Higgins
13th Dec 2003, 08:09
I can't help but laugh when I consider the number of people that consider Impulse pilots less than themselves. They have families to feed, let them get on with it!

The Impulse company and even the old merged Oxley had quite a few highly experienced former RAAF and Royal Flying Doc', together with some young blood with lots of PNG or remote area experience and good educational backgrounds.

Whether anyone wishes to admit it or not, aviation in Australia suffered for ALL pilots after 1989. I was there, I saw it, didn't like it and I left.

Qantas has persisted in producing more cadets in the process with no real command experience and to this day considers them more qualified than what comes through the trenches at GA.

Is it any wonder that someone who sees an opportunity outside of this in Australia, would jump at the chance?

Is it any wonder with the lack of humility demonstrated by mature and experienced QF staff, even on these posts, that others would ask Impulse to, "stick it to yer"?

I don't quite see how anyone who wants to live in Australia and make enough to feed a family can do it in GA. I think any Australian wife that can balance a family budget on the meagre salaries I have seen deserves sainthood.

Enough said! Don't shoot the messenger. Impulse is the message to QF unions and crews that they can be replaced, the pilots are merely messengers. Unity and professional conduct includes a dose of humility, and finally the view of the airline industry going forward from this crossroad could be disastrous if not handled better than in the past by QF mainline crew.

Gnadenburg
13th Dec 2003, 12:37
Well there is another positive that has appeared. The ugly step sister has just become desirable to the AIPA. At long last!

Integration of IPG and QF mainline pilots would be a Dixon nightmare. Defeating the purpose of LCC.

QF has the world's most expensive map folders in the form of S/O's. The nigtmare scenario would be everytime an LCC slot becomes available an expensive map folder is given the position. He is then in receit of expensive training, as is his replacement- the double whammy effect.

Airbus check & training expertise is not the realm of ex-Ansett. There is a lot of Australian expertise on the international market. Whoever anyway, I hope to see IPG preserve the market and recruit these people as opposed to being forced to take QF.

Kapt M. Who are you kidding. VB is so Ansett/TAA! The culture you avoided is purely post 89.
:)

Towlie
13th Dec 2003, 15:14
cry cry cry Impulse pilots are bad ....boo hoo..... grow up loosers it's not the drivers fault you can thank the management at QF for the decisions at hand

Why are Impulse pilots so bad? What about the Virgin guys? they too are all part and parcle of the low cost push in Australia!

What abotu the easy jet drivers , jet blue, ryan air? cry cry cry all ya like girls it's not the Impulse guys fault

Aviation is changing world wide it's a fact DEAL WITH IT

Wanna get high?

Sperm Bank
13th Dec 2003, 15:44
Dont talk too much fact there towlie you might upset the apple cart mate.
Management devise a pay scale..it's the pilot's fault for accepting it.
Management devise a rostering protocol...it's the pilot's fault for accepting it.
Management decide on a new aircraft type...it's the pilot's fault flying it.
Yes it's always the pilot's fault isn't it "entrenched types". Some of you guys started off as cadets 20 years ago with nothing more than a few 100 hours. Many of you got jobs by default, not exceptional qualification. What on earth qualifies you to come in here pontificating about procedural correctness and appropriate wage scales. The FACT of the matter is GENTLEMEN (and I use that term very losely at times) is that put in the same position, you all would work for exactly the same money as Virgin or Pornstar.

All this rubbish talk of lowering industry standards is so futile it defies comprehension. Where do you get off talking such [email protected]? What gives you the qualification to make any assumptions on the welfare of another group of pilots or their families? Let me answer that for you...NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whether it was us or ANYONE else, EXACTLY the same conditions would have been offered. In the perfect world no-one would accept and possibly force the price higher ( I repeat in the perfect world). Am I happy about it? of course not. But am I going to sit back and change careers while some little upstart takes my job? Not lilkely mate!!!!!!!!!

Instead of prescribing a neolithic solution to a modern day problem, why not be a little inventive and come up with something original. As in other parts of the world, the entrenched minority in a bid to protect their little bit of turf have effectively given birth to the current regime by default. Thats right lads, so accept you share of the responsibilty and wake up to the 21st centuary. You hepled create what we have today.

MrWooby
14th Dec 2003, 08:28
Gnadenburg, you don't seem to understand the situation with second officers do you!!!. The only reason they are there is to increase the available flight and duty times. British Airways do this with 2 x Captains and 2 x First Officers. Qantas do the same flight with 1 Capt, 1 FO and 2 second officers a much cheaper option. Cathay have a different mix. And the last time I checked, Cathay second officers were paid much more than Qantas SO's.

Sure, we could say that second officers are now getting paid more than A320 Capts, so lets reduce their wage, but why !
I have been flying for 25 years, and have been looking at this forum for about 3 years. One thing never ceases to amaze me is how self destructive we pilots are as a group. There seems to be a competition about how low we can reduce our wages to. We should be united about maintaining our pay scales, not reducing them. Airline management sees this and is only to happy to oblige.

You don't see this destructive attiutude in other professions. Were are the accountants or solicitors saying I'll do his job for 1/2 the current wage.

I think its time for people to grow up, stop making stupid posts about how one airline is better than the other and to start contructive posts about how to maintain the status of flying as a profession, not just a job driving busses.

Going Boeing
14th Dec 2003, 09:50
Kaptin M

For a person who is based offshore, you make many comments about all the changes in aviation in Australia. One thing that stands out about your posts is that you are unaware of what is happening behind the scenes. AIPA definitly does not have it's head in the sand and is working in a very determined manner to achieve pilot slots in Jetstar for its members. It's not easy when the deal with IPG was already done before QF management announced that it was looking into the viability of starting up a LCC.

bonvol
14th Dec 2003, 11:00
Well good on AIPA.

A bit after the horse has bolted though and just goes to show where AIPA stands in the eyes of management, ie irrelevant.

They didn't even bother to consult them, just did the deal with the IPG and that was that. Now AIPA goes cap in hand to try and resurrect something. I wish them luck but wont hang by the skin of my chinny chin chin for good news.

Wizofoz
14th Dec 2003, 18:47
GB,

Jake-the-muss told us (repeatedly!!) that he was in the thick of the negotiations and mainline crewing of the LCC was a done deal. Is this an example of AIPA NOT having its' head in the sand?

Keg
14th Dec 2003, 19:32
No wiz, this was one of the guys expecting that QF would operate in good faith (as they did when setting up AO) and negotiate with it's main pilot body to operate similar aircraft again and stating as such. I thought it was a little strong to 'insist' that QF drivers would crew it and although I hoped for it, I would never say 'us or no one'.

All that said, lets sum up where we are and work out how to move forward.

1. IPG pilots have the new carrier at current rates. Lots of guys get promotion and a pay rise to pay rates that are substantially below both DJ and QF pilots.

2. IPG Captains pay remains for the most part below QF F/O rates. No 767 F/O I've come across I'd classify as 'over paid'!

3. AIPA is negotiating for coverage of the IPG and for the expansion slots on JetStar. No one knows how successful they will be. GD reckons that 'everything' is on the table but whilst it may be on the table, JetStar management is probably primed to say 'no'.

4. Without 'coverage' now and into the future, QF, DJ and any other airline that happens along retains the ability to play off the respective pilots group against each other. I'm sure that the IPG woud LOVE to crew the A380 for (say) a pay rise of 50% over what they are getting now. It'd make perfect sense for them to pick up the 'holy grail' of interational flying and get a massive pay rise in the process. See the world, make heaps more than we currently make and 'do over' those slugs, short sighted fools in mainline. A fine theory until QF management do the same thing to the IPG in a decades time.

5. How do we achieve this and still give everyone a fair shot without disenfranchisng a particular group because they have been 'locked out'? I haven't the foggiest but at least we know the destination. If we don't define the destination, we haven't a hope of getting anywhere and THAT has been the biggest problem of the last decade with Pilot Associations in Australia (AIPA included). We have had NO destination. We have been like the pre federation states, all scrabbling for bragging rights and one upping each other as best we could. If this had been for BETTER pay and conditions then I'd be happy but alas....

Ah well. We'll see how this one pans out.

To the IPG pilots (and others) that rejoice in seeing QF drivers (AIPA, whoever) squirm, just remember that in ten years time you could be on the recieving end. Don't be naieve and think that it can't happen to you- especially when you are currently accusing QF crews of the same naivety over the last decade. This affects us all.

Maybe I was 'slow' in getting the message. Maybe I didn't push my elected members in AIPA hard enough. No more. I'm sure that now AIPA would be welcoming calls from ANY pilot member of Eastern, Sunstate and Impulse.

Regards,

Pimp Daddy
14th Dec 2003, 19:57
Maybe I was 'slow' in getting the message. Maybe I didn't push my elected members in AIPA hard enough. No more. I'm sure that now AIPA would be welcoming calls from ANY pilot member of Eastern, Sunstate and Impulse.


You never know Keg. Word around the Eastern crewroom is that overtures are already being made to welcome the previously inferior turboprop pilots into the fold.

Whether there is truth to that or just wishful thinking I guess time will tell.

Thunderbox
14th Dec 2003, 20:14
Am I a sore loser..you bet I am!

I could sit back and say I'm alright jack it's not really going to affect me. The fact is, the people I fly with day in day out, have just seen their promotional prospects go down the toilet. What have they done to deserve this, they just happen to be Qantas pilots, that's all. Most have been employed a lot longer by Qantas than the IPG, who had nothing to do with the company a few short years ago.

Yet all of a sudden Qantas decides to buy 23 brand new jets, but hold on... they will not be crewed by Qantas pilots!

Was the Impulse of 3 years ago about to buy 23 A320's? I doubt it.

Yeah I'm pissed off!

And to add insult to injury, Alan Joyce says he doesn't want Qantas pilots onboard because they might 'pollute' the culture of the new airline!

So there you go guys, thats what management think of your efforts.

On the above point Impulse people, don't for a minute think that thats not how they'll regard you in a few years time, when all the backslapping is over and you're negotiating you're next EBA.

Keg
14th Dec 2003, 20:44
PD, give AIPA a call. Don't rely on the scuttle butt. The phone number is available at AIPA (http://www.aipa.org.au) and follow the thinks to 'contact us'. If that doesn't work, send me a PM and I'll give them a call and then get back to you.

Did I mention that as well as pushing my own blokes currently in to tell the 'other' pilots that we need to represent them that I'm I'm also going to push every bloke that is in a job and NOT represented to get some representation- of the type that doesn't get played off against another pilot group due to having a gun to it's head!

bonvol
15th Dec 2003, 04:57
Well I have a few mates in the Pulse and they are very suspicious of AIPA, probably more so than they are of management.

They are not silly. They know AIPA is only rolling out the red carpet now the good ship mainline has taken a big one under the plimsoll line. Not much trust there and they know if they get in bed with AIPA then they may be worse off down the line when GD seeks payback.

The mainline pilots clapped a senior QF management type at a pilots meeting a few months ago when he gave the meeting a whole lot of feel good platitudes. How naive/stupid can you get? We only have ourselves to blame.

Keg
15th Dec 2003, 05:16
Bonvol, suspicion I can understand entirely. We are talking about the same pilot group that has overtly or casualy ignored the IPG for too long now but I take issue with your aspersion that AIPA is rolling out the red carpet to 'do over' the IPG. Yes, the members of AIPA are concerned about what the developments at JetStar mean for pilots pay and conditions in Australia now and into the future. It doesn't matter what the reason is for AIPA representing the IPG (and Sunnies and Easterns), the point is that it makes good sense now and into the future.

I'm not a COM member and I don't speak for AIPA. As a member of AIPA I voice these opinions as to what I reckon AIPA can do for all of us. United we stand. Divided is a race to the bottom and see who will fly for the least amount of money.

bonvol
15th Dec 2003, 05:33
Keg, its not my aspersion, its theirs. Trust once gone is hard if not impossible to get back

It made good sense ages ago and it makes more sense now to unify all the pilots in Australia. Its just a shame AIPA wasn't more active in helping the Pulse,Eastern etc drivers before it went pear shaped.

I fear its too little too late now.

Chris Higgins
15th Dec 2003, 07:27
As a former Union Safety Chairman based in JFK, who worked hard at national level and learned from the mistakes of the past, I simply have to say, "It's never too late!"

Some years ago, Mr Robert Crandall, the then CEO of American, bought up a bunch of commuters.

He held separate collective bargaining agreements with each of the airlines, whereby he would lay-off at one to give routes to another that gave concessions. Sound familiar?

Finally a long and arduous part of labour relations came to an end when the courts agreed they all had to be regarded as the same collective bargaining agreement. Children of airline pilots were eligible for free school lunches and for the first three years of employment, some States allowed these same families to collect food stamps.

I'm not quite sure how bad it has to get in Australia before the brotherhood of aviation has to combine and get together before the whole system falls apart.

From an air-safety perspective, you may find that in the generations to come, enthusiastic and talented pilots will leave the industry to pursue other professions. What you might be left with as captains, are those that might never have been accepted for upgrade.

To the AIPA, I would say, "Get off your backsides and raid the crewrooms at Eastern, Sunstate and Impulse". Asking them to simply, "drop you a line", is just bulls-hit.

To the guys at Impulse, don't give it all away. You must ask for mainline seniority rights at a deadline in the future.

This is what happened here in America with "flow-through" agreements. It does work, you are all on the same team, get on with it and forget about who's screwing who!!

If you need me to broker a deal or act as a mediator, I will go down there and do it for nothing. Don't expect me to come back and work there though, I'm too settled here.

Iso
15th Dec 2003, 07:40
Hey Chris, that was a refreshing post. It seems that standing back from afar does give you the big picture. I reckon some of ewes oughta look at this.

Keg
15th Dec 2003, 08:15
Bonvol, my apologies...should have read 'the aspersion', not 'yours'. As I said, I can understand the feeling but it is based on mis-information (from QF?) and 'previous' issues. It's a backward looking position and not a forward looking one and THAT is the issue that pilots in Australia have to change. We have to build a bridge, get over it and move forward for ALL our benefit.

Chris, nice post although there are some small legal issues WRT 'raiding' the crew rooms. ;) I'm not full bottle on them but I agree in principle with the aim. It's important for the word to get out there that AIPA is serious about representing QF group pilots- and who knows from there!! :}

There ARE issues to be sorted out for this to work out but lets not walk away from what could be a very mutually beneficial deal just because there is some work to do and disagreement along the way. The destination is the important thing, how we get there isn't as important as getting there as quickly as we can.

bonvol
15th Dec 2003, 09:03
Keg,

No worries mate.

Maybe this is the watershed that may lead to the reunification of Australia's professional pilots. If we remain divided then we are stuffed I reckon. RH and the committee sure have a job ahead of them though.

qfpaypacket
15th Dec 2003, 10:38
Keg,

Whilst I appreciate your perspective, I really think you should stop wasting your time explaining our position on pprune. From what I have gathered the only people reading this have no idea and are rubbing their hands with glee that the last decent job in Austalian aviation is under threat. If you want to talk to someone talk to AIPA. Short of that, get over it.
Army of one.

Poto
15th Dec 2003, 11:16
Qfpaypacket,

The erosion of conditions within Oz aviation affects us all. I guess the sad reality for many of us jet jockey wannabes is that we may actually be witnessing the end of the 'holy grail' Oz job. Still, this a situation we must all deal with whichever rung of the latter each of us are currently holding onto.

Keg,
thanks for the info and updates, us drivers at the dawn of our airline careers do appreciate yours and others posts; Particularly when they are void of personal attacks.:ok:

Keg
15th Dec 2003, 12:30
QFPP, I understand the sentiment but I refuse to believe that being an 'Army of One' is the ONLY solution available to us. Yes, there have been those on PPRUNE who are glad to see 'us' get 'done over' but there are others who believe they were just protecting themselves.

The problem with AIPA and QF mainline crew is that for too long we have let the fartsock's and others define who we are to the rest of the Aussie flying fraternity. I love my job and I want nothing more than a command in Sydney as quick as I can. Part of me would have loved for ALL of the LCC slots to come to QF mainline so that the IPG could join our ranks and have the prospect of being on more money immediately (for the former F/Os and now new S/Os) and on more money in two or three years time as a F/O then they were as a Captain with Impulse. Alas, not to be. What I want to see now is the Jetstar pay and conditions at LEAST at DJ rates and I want to see DJ rates dragged up to close to QF rates.

What we seem to be missing in all of this is that all of our respective employers are making great profits. QF is probably heading for a record- at the same time as repaying large amounts of debt (gut feeling!). In the mean time, we cut each other off at the knees to make our management richer.

Yeah, I'm an army of one- but it isn't going to be to cost the airline more by burning their fuel, etc. It is going to be by working my backside off to ensure that QF group pilots are paid a decent amount of money for the 'reputation of safety, service, etc' that QF enjoys playing on so much! :rolleyes: :E BTW, I email and talk to COM members a fair bit. I'm not on the COM but that doesn't mean that I'm not doing my bit!

Red Hot Chili Pepper
15th Dec 2003, 13:50
“From what I have gathered the only people reading this have no idea and are rubbing their hands with glee that the last decent job in Austalian aviation is under threat”

Qfpaypacket.

Most pilots working in Asia, Europe and America would probably agree that you appear to have no idea.

The forces at play in the global airline industry have arrived in Australia and will have a huge impact on Qantas and the way it does business. These forces are way beyond the scope of mere pilots – the sooner you realize this the sooner you will be able to abandon your futile stance and start working on a more realistic strategy to ensure your future participation in the industry is assured.

You refer to QF as being the “last decent job” in Australia. Decent for you maybe but such a comment simply highlights your arrogance – maybe there is a reason people are “rubbing their hands with glee”. Your sentiments, not mine.

Thunderbox,

“A victory for sure, but most assuredly a pyyric one at that”.

By using the word victory you are implying a condition of conflict. Why. This is not a zero sum game. An “us versus them” approach will add no value to your cause. Jetstar will grow the market, as Virgin did and will certainly provide more jobs in the industry for pilots.

Gnadenburg
15th Dec 2003, 14:37
There is a lot of positivity from the various protangonists in this thread. With a cyclic upswing for pilots here without many realising, I hope you all play your cards well.

A few detractors and tangents when we get personal. Am guilty myself and shall resist temptation to have a jab at Cadets, S/O's and Virgin Blue.

Red Hot Chili

Subjective of course. The last decent job in Australia was Ansett with a 5 year command prospect and prior AirNZ investment ( sic ).

The prospect of 4 sectors a day, an affordable lifestyle in Sunbury, is death by a thousand cuts IMHO.

Thunderbox
15th Dec 2003, 16:17
It must be obvious by now to all and sundry, Professional Pilots in this country are being done like a dinner by the likes of Dicko and Godbotherer etc.

By my reckoning it must be about 1 minute to midnight on the clock of total annihilation of this profession in Oz.

There is only one way out for us now...Unity. We may not like each other all that much, but if we cannot get this simple concept into our heads, we're gone.

What must happen is this...somehow AIPA and AFAP must reunite immediately. How this will occur I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. Please spare me the history lessons on the original split, I'm aware of them.

This Asscociation/Federation must then go all out to get coverage of everyone...from CPL's and up.

Smarter people than myself can work out the details.

The clock is ticking!

Truth Seekers Int'nl
15th Dec 2003, 17:09
the only bloke making any sense on this topic is the Gnadenburger. it's supply and demand gents whether you like it or not. the AOA have finally realised this fact up here and BA are starting to understand what a "reality check" entails.
thunderbox - you are the proverbial comedian and your posts have given me a good old belly laugh!
There is only one way out for us now...Unity. We may not like each other all that much, - the oxymoron award of the month.
What must happen is this...somehow AIPA and AFAP must reunite immediately. - would that be the same as "Patricks and the waterside workers union should bury the hatchet and join together for a massive pi$$ up at Paddy O'Reillys."
I could sit back and say I'm alright jack it's not really going to affect me. and Smarter people than myself can work out the details.
. good idea mate, just sit in that left seat and let the young blokes work it all out.

Thunderbox
15th Dec 2003, 17:15
TruthSeeker, all I can say to that post is thank god you're polluting someone elses patch.

Just stay right where you are mate.

Kaptin M
16th Dec 2003, 05:50
Red Hot Chili Pepper wrote"By using the word victory you are implying a condition of conflict. Why. This is not a zero sum game. An “us versus them” approach will add no value to your cause."
It's interesting that you have made this observation, as it is one that has also been made of airline managements in other countries, eg Singapore Airlines, when the outgoing (voted out) Vice President of Industrial Relations for the Airline Pilots' Association of Singapore (ALPA-S), recently stated, "Employers must look at employees as a partner - not an adversary".
Sun Tzu's "Art of War" appears to have become the handbook many airline executives have chosen, as the basis for their modus operandi when dealing with their staff - Oldmeadow (ex-AN, now QF) having been a long time exponent - to the overall detriment of the companies, but for the short term, financial boom of upper level management.

In the same paragraph, Red Hot Chili Pepper continues, "Jetstar will grow the market, as Virgin did and will certainly provide more jobs in the industry for pilots."
.....and that is certainly the intention, however "the market" (that is) being grown is one of lower paid, less united pilots.
There is NO reason that the commercial market could not have been grown in the same manner, had QANTAS invested the same money in QANDOM, or Australian, without the added expense of setting up yet another company, and ANOTHER management structure (aka "empire building", or adding another wing to Bulls-hit Castle).
Sorry, did I say NO reason? In fact there are at least 2 - one, of course, being the creation of more highly paid executive salaried positions - complete with bonuses - , which will be funded by the lower paid staff employed. And another being the NECESSARY EXCLUSION of AIPA pilot representation to ensure the lower salaries of pilots.
Needless to say, F/A's - who are also an easily identifiable cost - will also be working at Jet Star for less than their QANTAS counterparts.

Expect to see Jet Star pilots being trickle-fed into the QF mainline system within the next few years.

The little glee clubs set up by pilots of each and every airline are NOT working too well, are they?!
If Aussie (and New Zealand now needs to be included, I believe) pilots are to protect themselves from (a) managements that are interested only in REDUCING workers' conditions to over-reward themselves, and (b) pilots from themselves, then Thunderbox's proposal of ALL professional pilots being represented by one national body is the very FIRST step that must be taken.

Chris Higgins
16th Dec 2003, 06:36
The very conflicts that you have observed here are present in every corporate structure in the world. Pilots by nature tend to be structured, left-brain types, that don't "give as much" as we all might think we do.

Dixon is smarter than any airline executive you've ever seen, and sadly he read the book from the experiences of American deregulation where 136 airlines have gone bankrupt since 1983. The economic reality and some of the spite you are seeing about the "new age" and Qantas staff being "old age", has an element of truth.This was true of Braniff, Eastern, Midway and Pan Am as well.

If you don't hold onto the holy grail of assured financial security at a place like Qantas, believe me, ALL of you will regret it!!

If Qantas can't be allowed to enjoy some traditional financial security, strong union representation, admiration from their peers and a degree of respect from other pilots in the industry, you will see a sliding slope in the airline culture that will be just as bad as the dark days of America.

An airline here, USAirways, crashed five aircraft in five years. They were operating under a bankruptcy provision of American Law called Chapter 11, emerged, and will go back into bankruptcy by January. I accepted a job there briefly to try and help them work some things out, I taught the 75/767. It was a losing proposition.

We now have advertisements in Flying Magazine that quote fresh faced kids saying, "I couldn't fly eighteen months ago and now I am an airline pilot".

Is this where you want your industry to go in five years from now?

I was a baggage boy at Oxley Airlines, I flew a C-172 back from New Zealand to Australia, I flew mail out of Alice Springs for Chartair. Don't tell me I'm a bloody yank, and don't know what I'm talking about.

I know Jon Pickett at Impulse, he's a really great guy! Former RAAF who used to fly 36 Sqn C-130s to the South Pole. Don't bull-shit me he's not worthy!

Qantas is the greatest airline in the world. Why? Because I'm an Australian and I bloody well said so! I don't work there, never will, I love my job flying corporate for Netjets.

You guys know why Dixon is so smart?

He thought you'd be too busy fighting with each other to be a formidable unified opponent.

He might be right!

LetsGoRated
16th Dec 2003, 08:20
What was that about viewing things from a different perspective? An excellent post!!:O

Red Hot Chili Pepper
16th Dec 2003, 16:11
Kaptin,

My comments were intended to describe an “us versus them” mentality with regards to the various pilot factions, not pilot’s employees versus management.

I agree, although the market will expand resulting in more jobs, a larger proportion of the pilot jobs in the industry will be at lower salaries than those currently enjoyed by QF mainline pilots.

However, this is not the argument being put forth by many on this forum. QF pilots concerns center around the pay and conditions for QF pilots only, not the conditions of the wider industry. This is fair enough. I am in a similar position where my opinions and actions are guided by the conditions where I am employed and not beyond that.

But, as I (and others) have said before - Qantas pilots will not be paid less as a result of Jetstar. Qantas pilots will not face retrenchment. Dixon is savvy enough to know that were this to occur in mainline, while at the same time a wholly owned subsidiary was busy employing people to work similar roles for lower salaries, that he would be committing industrial suicide.

This argument is not about reducing workers conditions, as this will not occur. It is about losing the possibility of someday increasing workers conditions of QF pilots– i.e.; command or type upgrades.

Mr Wooby,

“Gnadenburg, you don't seem to understand the situation with second officers do you”.

It is not uncommon for a BA FO to be paid less than a QF SO – depending on seniority of course.

Gnadenburg
16th Dec 2003, 17:00
This thread is evidence that pilots self-destruct when we get envious, jealous and emotional.

The sooner we see ourselves as a commodity and the sooner we see a bigger market picture.

If we were not a commodity, the Dixon's and Godfrey's of the world would give a stuff about the intangible- such as morale!

Politically, the talk of a one pilot professional association will be resisted at the highest levels. Even so, would it survive globalisation?

I stand by my hope IPG realises market forces.

For example- who is to say you wont be competing with Silkair on some leisure routes in Australia in a few years? If IPG was to look after the market it would take on the Australians from that airline ( the crew that haven't left for Dragonair ).

Your possible competitor will have to up the package to attract pilots, improve pilot conditions abroad and protect you from some pressures of globalisation.

Don't make it easy for rag-tag outfits like Silkair. If you look after the market they will have too aswell!

That's for you Fat Eric- parking airplanes yet?:p

Kaptin M
16th Dec 2003, 18:03
RHCP, you appear to contradict yourself in the last post (imo), when you wrote, "..a larger proportion of the pilot jobs in the industry will be at lower salaries than those currently enjoyed by QF mainline pilots.", folllowed later with, "This argument is not about reducing workers conditions, as this will not occur.".

With your observation, "It is about losing the possibility of someday increasing workers conditions of QF pilots– i.e.; command or type upgrades."....that someday being the day that Jet Star employs 1 more Captain on the A320, than (Captains) Impulse currently employs now, on its MD fleet. I am assuming that the A320's will be replacement type for the MD's.
IMO, all QF pilots currently holding the rank of F/O, S/O, or cadet, are going to be affected by Jet Star wrt promotion, and therefore, ultimately salary.

AIPA hasn't shown much forethought, by disallowing subsidiary pilots membership, and as such it's now (been) turned around (and been used to) to bight back!

Red Hot Chili Pepper
18th Dec 2003, 08:43
Kaptin M,

I fail to see any contradiction.

QF pilots will receive negotiated increments to the salary they currently receive. They will not be asked to work for less. They will not be retrenched.

But they will slowly migrate to larger aircraft (and retire) and their routes will be slowly replaced by Jetstar aircraft crewed by pilots on lower salaries than those currently enjoyed by Qantas pilots.

And yes, the industry will subsequently have a larger percentage of pilots working on VB/Jetstar wages.

I may be wrong but I still cannot see anyone being asked to work on a reduced salary because of Jetstar.

“AIPA hasn't shown much forethought, by disallowing subsidiary pilots membership, and as such it's now (been) turned around (and been used to) to bight back!”

Bingo.

Kaptin M
19th Dec 2003, 13:31
It seeems as though we both share a similar view with the ways things are going to go, Chili Pepper :uhoh:

Whilst QANTAS Captains are likely to have their conditions unaffected (in the medium term), command prospects for QF F/O`s and S/O`s will be greatly reduced, due to increased routes being taken over by Jet Star and Australian (expect to see a further move made on their remuneration package....or were they just a diversionary tactic? :eek: ).

Effectively, ALL pilots who are employed by Jet Star will not enjoy the same conditions they would have, had Jet Star been negotiated through AIPA.

"I may be wrong but I still cannot see anyone being asked to work on a reduced salary because of Jetstar." - Except for ALL Jet Star pilots (and other staff, no doubt) who will be on far lesser conditions than their QANDOM predecessors!

Pilots required for new start-ups in Australia, New Zealand, Asia.......there`s a message there somewhere, but it seems that we (he pilot group) are a little slow getting it! :(

Gnadenburg
19th Dec 2003, 15:21
Your last paragraph sums it up. The market demands pilots in this region-hundreds! Aswell as in Asia. But Australian and NZ pilots continue to be an anti-christ.

That is why I have implored that IPG goes a small way in looking after market forces by recruiting current Airbus pilots ( CX, EK, Silk etc ).

Do something, at least, to preserve conditions. Airlines abroad are terrified of attrition at the moment. They are expanding as quick as possible with their limited training resources. Attrition will burst them at the seams, giving commercial advantage to competitors who can secure crews - this invariably means the airlines that have the best professional conditions.

If the IPG recruits 130 onward, that's 70 or so positions, from the Airbus rated market, the ripple effect will be significant in the present environment. preserving your own conditions aswell- remember this the lateral part of being a "Professional Pilot".

Avoid becoming a training ground for QF Cadets-last thing the market needs is this scenario!

Could somebody confirm, an Impulse A320 Captain versus QF 767 Captain, on domestic award, pay scales? I hear there is not a significant difference. 150K versus 170K?

Keg
19th Dec 2003, 19:52
Gnade, the 767 figures will 'slide' a little depending on the divisor but roughly for 700-750 stick (160 hour divisor), the QF 767 driver will earn about $175K.

That figure was worked out by 160 times 6.5 bid periods per annum, divided by 5.5 hours per day (minimum daily credit and equals number of days worked (and I took annual leave into account)) times 4 (which is the number of hours the company reckon the 767 drivers average per day) and then by our hourly pay rate.

Obviously, if the divisor goes up a bit, so do the flying hours. A 170 hour divisor will increase flying by about 50 hours per annum and add about 65 hours credit.

I have no idea as to the IPG figures.

Gnadenburg
19th Dec 2003, 20:03
Keg your too honest. But that is very cheap and cheeky-considering some of the nasties thrown around by QF pilots at Impulse

Douglas Mcdonnell
20th Dec 2003, 07:02
You hit the nail on the head Gnanden. The vocal minority on this forum and others have sold out their mates by ridiculing the IPG.

The name actually grows on you after a while. Love the paint scheme!!!!

Cheers DM

Keg
21st Dec 2003, 05:05
Changed my mind on earlier comments. Thanks Gnade. I can handle being labelled 'too honest'! ;)