Khe Sanh Descents..

[cumulus]

A few years ago, I was reading about the battle of Khe San, during the Vietnam war. I distinctly remember something called a "Khe Sanh" descent, whereby aircraft resupplying the besieged garrison made a tight, spiralling descent from directly above the landing strip, to avoid Viet Cong/NVA anti aircraft fire.

I believe they were quite large aircraft, C130s maybe. If such aircraft did make these approaches, how far out from the runway threshold would of they established themselves for finals? or did they effectively fly the aircraft so as to roll out of the final spiral virtually on the threshold, at the correct speed and flap settings?

The only thing I can think of is something similar to the constant aspect approach used for PFLs, but I am curious to know how they did it.

Yours
Cumulus.

[Mad_Mark]

Considering some of the locations that the RAF (omongst others) are operating today, and the possibility of some of the locals not being to keen on the west trying to improve their lives, this type of approach may or may not still be in use (I don't know, just speculating). Therefore don't hold your breath awaiting an answer to your question.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Whispering Giant]

Mad_Mark - i believe that the RAF still occasionally use this approach - i have seen in done several times but only at airshows, the RAF used to use this as their party piece at RIAT at Fairford, they used to come in at approx 4-5000 ft over the threshold at Fairford then push the nose over till it was almost vertically going down to the runway and at about 2-300 ft above the runway slowly pull the nose back so as just as the nose came to the horizontal the main's would touch down on the runway.
All i can say is that it looked very very impressive, a friend of mine has just come out of the RAF where he was in ATC and said they used this type of approach at several places in Bosnia where they flew too.

Brgds
W.G.

[Unwell_Raptor]

It was also used by Viscount pilots in Rhodesia after one (or two?) were shot down by missiles.

[Spot 4]

The Daily Telegraph suggested that a C17 did this with Dubya on board when arriving in Iraq.

[Muppet Leader]

First one I ever did, no one told me it was going to happen.
I was down the back, but wasn’t on headset at the time.

Just sat down with a brew.

Next thing I know, the contents of my cup of coffee start floating past my eyes!
Followed by my feet passing my face – while my a@se was still sat on the seat!

Word of warning though, don’t have chewing gum in you’re mouth, ‘cos once the “G” kicks in, you can’t chew.

ML
:ok:

[tony draper]

Wasn't some thought given to allowing commercial aircraft to do much steeper approaches, after lessons learned landing the Space Shuttle and the modified aircraft the used to train Shuttle pilots, I seem to remember seeing a documentry about this.
Dunno what advantage there is to doing this for commercial aircraft, although given the present set of circumstances mebbee there is.

[hairyclameater]

Have you not been to any airshows cumulus!? Most tactical transport displays end with this approach - RAF, Belgian & Swedish Hercs, RAF & RN Jetstreams, German Transalls, Italian G222s (though not too good on the round out as per Fairford last year!), Canadian Buffalo, civvy demonstrator C27s,CN235s etc etc, even Dutch P3s and (from what I saw of the practice at Fairford) Kiwi B757s! Certainly the USAF C17 demo features a high RoD approach but not at such a steep angle.

All current transport drivers seem to use it as tv footage of recent war zones demonstrates. Given current world climate of shooting anything out of the sky I imagine airliners and similar will soon be practising the art!

[cumulus]

Hairyclam....Jesus, what a handle. No, I have never been to an Airshow, maybe I should start. Thank you very much for your answer though, I will try and get hold of some airshow videos, and see how it is done.

Your Obedient Servant

Cumulus:)

And then try it myself:E

[Beeayeate]

cumulus

I will try and get hold of some airshow videos, and see how it is done.

Having experienced "tactical" landings in a "two-tone brown" Albert I can tell you it's a great way of discovering all those oranges and cheese banjos lost from previous "in flight" boxes. :ooh: :rolleyes:

:ok:

[Navy_Adversary]

I was fortunate enough to scrounge a ride with The US Navy Blue Angels Fat Albert during the air show at Reno Air Races . Their steep approach was great but probably not quite so good as The Swedish and UK ones.
I was photographing the show the next day and I got a great shot of the C-130 touching down, nosewheel first:O

[scroggs]

The display 'Khe Sahn' is not the same as the operational version, as it is straight-in and normally begins at 1000' to 1500' above the airfield (not 4-5000'!), and is designed for maximum crowd-appeal, not maximum operational effect. The operational version may be a spiral, or it may use alternative flight paths.....

[Hobo]

Khe Sanh -Cold Chisel's (Aussie Rock Group) best song:


Khe Sanh
Cold Chisel
(Cold Chisel)

I left my heart to the sappers round Khe Sanh
And my soul was sold with my cigarettes to the blackmarket man
I've had the Vietnam cold turkey
From the ocean to the Silver City
And it's only other vets could understand

About the long forgotten dockside guarantees
How there were no V-dayheroes in 1973
How we sailed into Sydney Harbour
Saw an old friend but couldn't kiss her
She was lined, and I was home to the lucky land

And she was like so many more from that time on
Their lives were all so empty, till they found their chosen one
And their legs were often open
But their minds were always closed
And their hearts were held in fast suburban chains
And the legal pads were yellow, hours long, paypacket lean
And the telex writers clattered where the gunships once had been
But the car parks made me jumpy
And I never stopped the dreams
Or the growing need for speed and novacaine

So I worked across the country end to end
Tried to find a place to settle down, where my mixed up life could mend
Held a job on an oil-rig
Flying choppers when I could
But the nightlife nearly drove me round the bend

And I've travelled round the world from year to year
And each one found me aimless, one more year the more for wear
And I've been back to South East Asia
But the answer sure ain't there
But I'm drifting north, to check things out again

You know the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone
Only seven flying hours, and I'll be landing in Hong Kong
There ain't nothing like the kisses
From a jaded Chinese princess
I'm gonna hit some Hong Kong mattress all night long

Well the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone
Yeah the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone
And it's really got me worried
I'm goin' nowhere and I'm in a hurry
And the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone

[whowhenwhy]

I believe that somewhere just over 10 years ago the Khe Sanh was re-dubbed the Sarajevo! I'm fairly certain with the current level of friendliness in and around Iraq it's now being talked about as the Baghdad! As far as I'm aware the idea is to stay outside small-arms and possibly shoulder-launched SAM range until the last possible moment and then drop like a stone onto the LZ. Any trucky types about to lend us their professional two-penneth?:ok:

[L J R]

Yep - Still in use today, and not only by transport types.......


Not sure of the modern 'trendy' name though.

[ORAC]

The majority of flights into Khe Sanh were made by C-123ks, (only this model with two podded jet engines operated into the base), as the C-130 was adjudged too valuable to risk landing at the base as it couldn't make the runway turn-offs in either direction and had to back track. Except for 14 flights between the 25-28 of February, they were only used for air drops.

The C-123Ks flew a 4.5 degree glide path, starting their descent about 5kms from the field. All approaches were from the east because the unloading zone was at the west end of the runway and the aircraft couldn’t slow down enough on the other runway to make the turn-off and, as with the C-130s, back-tracking was too dangerous. (They couldn’t use reverse thrust on their prop engines, because this would automatically shut down the two jet engines, needed for the required steep climb on departure to clear enemy fire).

The aircraft landed and turned straight off into the unloading zone. The aircraft never stopped moving but performed a speed unloading procedure before re-entering the runway at the next turn-off and taking off back the way they came in.

The normal time between touchdown and take-off was 3 minutes, some crews managed it in under 1 minute.

The speed unloading procedure consisted of ground crew attaching a pair of 7ft runners to the ramp as it taxied past (there weren’t enough for each aircraft to carry their own), once in the off-load area the loadmaster released the chains on the pallets as the pilot added power to send the pallets down the ramp. Unloading averaged 30 seconds.

(The air drops, aided by ground bombing radar, were quite accurate. The C-130s had an average CEP of 110 yards over 496 sorties in all weather conditions, including IMC drops when the base was otherwise closed.)

Data extracted from “Air Power and the Fight for Khe Sahn”, US Office of Air Force History – 1973.

[cumulus]

Thank you Peripatetic, I think that was a pretty comprehensive reply.

:ok:

[earnest]

Not sure of the modern 'trendy' name though.

"Standard Manchester."

[almostbold]

Cumulus
"I will try and get hold of some airshow videos, and see how it is done". "And then try it myself". !!!!!!!
These descents are not for the trying thereof. On a calm day you could end up with a touchdown too far into the runway. With any wind at all you will always have a very high rate of descent and a low nose attitude - get it wrong one way and you will arrive nosewheel first with high ROD, get it wrong the other way and you will flare too early, float and risk stalling in. On a strong wind day you may end up pointing into the undershoot and risk stretching the flare to the runway - always a disaster.

Some other comments on this thread are correct - the airshow demo is from about 1000 feet and looks spectacular but the real event starts much higher in order to stay away from the bad guys.

[cumulus]

I was only joking, I am not even almost bold. I get scared departing from straight and level. The reason I posted the original enquiry was pure curiosity, as I was thinking how much distance it would take a large aircraft to establish on finals etc.
I also use the anonymity of this forum to engage in empty posturing and braggadacio.:\

[Maaate]

I recall the SAAF used a similar technique for their Hercs and Transalls into Ondangwa (Namibia) during the height of the Namibian and Angolan conflicts.

An interesting story (which I cannot confirm) is that the Angolans would install a mobile VOR or NDB, with the same frequency and ident as the Ondangwa aid, hoping to lure any unsuspecting SAAF aircraft into Angola, only to be met by anti-aircraft fire.

Apparently, the SAAF countered by changing the ident daily, and issuing their crews with the day's 'secret' ident.

Can any ex-SAAFies confrim or deny?

[BlueEagle]

In the mid seventies we used to fly the BAC1-11 into Salalah in the Oman. We would come over the top at 20,000' turn out to sea and do a very steep spiral descent to the runway to avoid SAMs and such like, we were 'civvy', not SOAF and were doing a charter for the government, both the pax and ourselves used to enjoy this break from airline standard routine arrivals!:E

[chippy63]

The mid 70's was also a period when terrorists had threatened to attack Lufthansa aircraft. For a period, their flights were almost empty, so you got excellent treatment.
The crews would often perform "unusual" approach manoeuvres, and I was delighted to be invited to the flight deck for a few of these. :ok:

[Rex 1100]

here we go...from NYT...

ABOARD A C-17 GLOBEMASTER, $ From the darkened cockpit of this giant Air Force cargo plane, Captain J.J. Grindrod peered through his night-vision goggles at the Iraqi airstrip ahead and prepared early Monday to make a steep, high-speed landing, a tactic used to thwart surface-to-air missile attacks.
.
Grindrod and his five-member crew were flying 71,200 pounds, or 32,300 kilograms, of cargo and equipment from Germany into Balad airfield, a sprawling base 45 miles, or 70 kilometers, north of Baghdad where the army has built its major logistics center in Iraq.
.
"Coming in high and fast keeps the bad guys from reaching out and touching you," said Grindrod, 31, of Orlando, Florida, the wisecracking commander of this C-17 mission. The task of sustaining military operations in Iraq and the 155,000 American and allied troops here falls to an unsung supply lifeline of ground convoys from Kuwait and a complex air bridge of cargo flights from the United States and Europe.
.
The bulk of the supplies and equipment into Iraq come by ship into Kuwait and are trucked overland, but the air bridge is crucial to delivering 500 tons a day of cargo into Kuwait and Iraq. Flying materiel into Balad reduces the number of convoys that have to drive risky routes to reach the big logistics base. More than 40,000 tons of supplies have been lifted into Iraq alone since the end of major combat operations in May, Air Force officials said.
.
From the air side, keeping the Army ground forces in Iraq well stocked in ammunition, parts and other supplies is the job of three Air Force cargo planes - the C-17 and C-5 Galaxy, for oversize loads across the ocean, and the C-130 Hercules for shorter intra-theater flights.
.
The air cargo operation is a complicated choreography of planes and crews. Chartered commercial aircraft and C-5's depart from Dover, Delaware, switch crews in Spain and head to Kuwait. Most of the C-17 missions originate in Charleston, South Carolina, and stop to refuel and swap crews at Rhein Main Air Base in Frankfurt.
.
The C-17 hub at Rhein Main is a 24-hour operation, and Grindrod's four-and-a-half hour mission from there overnight Sunday carried cargo that ranged from tires and batteries to rations and office paper. Packed in boxes and in crates, the materiel was then wrapped in plastic to prevent water damage and lashed to huge aluminum sleds called pallets that are rolled on and off the aircraft.
.
The gray, four-engine C-17 is about as long as a Boeing 767 jetliner but much wider. It can airdrop 102 paratroopers. And it can refuel other aircraft in midair. The massive C-5 can carry more than twice as much cargo but the C-17 needs only one-third the runway, or about 3,000 feet, or 915 meters, to land and take off, a big advantage when picking up or dropping off cargo at austere airfields.
.
The C-17 is also built to fly into harm's way. The C-17's cockpit floor is sheathed with Kevlar to protect the pilots against ground fire. The plane is equipped with flares designed to fool heat-seeking missiles. Newer aircraft have an infrared sensor that can fire a laser at a streaking missile to blind its guidance system.
.
The $200 million plane is agile enough to execute combat landings with tight turns to avoid enemy fire and crews use the cover of darkness to avoid attacks. "The night is our friend," said Major Phillip Durocher, 39, of Thibodaux, Louisiana, who was one of three pilots on board the mission.
.
So it's little wonder that when the Army's 173rd Airborne Brigade needed to airdrop nearly 1,000 paratroopers into northern Iraq last march to open a northern front in the opening week of the war, 15 C-17's were dispatched from Italy to carry out one of the largest air drops since World War II.
.
Hundreds of C-17 missions have also seen combat operations and humanitarian missions in landlocked Afghanistan.
.
"We are the lifters of choice," said Grindrod, an Air Force Academy graduate.
.
Those kinds of demands can be grueling. Units like Grindrod's 16th Airlift Squadron, based in Charleston, and reserve squadrons that have been called up have found that 24-hour workdays are not uncommon. Some C-17 pilots are on the road from 200 to 250 days a year, crew members said.
.
With no end in sight to the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is not a pace that is likely to ease up.
.
"This is an endurance contest," said Lieutenant Colonel Shane Hershman, who deployed two months ago to run the C-17 hub at Rhein Main. "This is for the long term."
.
The New York Times :8

[SALAD DODGER]

A TRUE STORY!:

Even though the Khe Sanh missions were some of the most difficult ever for USAF airlifters, they were not without moments of humor. On flight, a C-130 pilot from Naha, Okinawa was getting a flight check. The Stan/Eval pilot went in back to help with the off-loading and up-loading of wounded Marines. Enemy mortar and artillery shells were falling on the base, with each subsequent volley getting closer and closer to the C-130A. When a shell hit close enough to throw shrapnel into the side of the airplane, the pilot decided it was time to leave. He began a fast taxi toward the runway, unaware that the flight examiner had for some reason left the airplane. The FE saw the airplane start to taxi and ran to catch it. He ran after the airplane and managed to grab the end of the ramp, but had to let go when his clothes began to rip away and the heels wore off of his jungle boots. Later, he caught a ride back to Cam Rhan on another C-130. That evening he ran into the pilot he had been checking earlier in the day. "Well, I guess we can call your check ride complete. You run a hell of a tight ship. But, I do have one criticism - your predeparture briefing leaves A LOT to be desired."

I BET HE DESERVED IT .... FEEL SORRY FOR THE NEXT CREW.

(Taken from a great article by Sam McGowan) http://www.spectrumwd.com/c130/articles/khesanh.htm

[OTTERHUNTER]

Spiral approaches certainly are in vogue, will post a pic but can't fiqure out how to do the deed! Need help!

[scroggs]

Coming in high and fast keeps the bad guys from reaching out and touching you,

An interesting simplification! So if I was flying a steep-approaching F16/15/3 etc, I'd be invulnerable? I think Mr Grindrod is gilding his own lily.

The point of the Khe Sanh (I note the spelling correction from my last post), or any more recent description of the procedure, is to make the flight path unpredictable to the - hopefully - inexpert potential aggressor. The specific techniques used will inevitably vary depending on the enemy's capabilities, the aircraft's capabilities, the surrounding terrain, the weather, and what may reasonably be asked of the average crew. There is no standard that can be applied to all transport aircraft in all situations.

I repeat: the display 'Khe Sanh' is just that: a display, as in entertainment for an audience. I feel reasonably well qualified to make that statement!

[samusi01]

News to me: didn't know the C-17 could refuel other aircraft. I must be really behind the times here...

[chippy63]

I saw a longer version of the article that Rex posted in the Herald Trib, had a pic of Capt. G by the aircraft. He is described as the commander, but the article refers to and quotes a 39 year old major as one of the three pilots on board. Also noticed that G wasn't wearing command pilot wings.
It made me wonder what command pilot status means in practical terms?

[Boy_From_Brazil]

chippy63

I tried to find the Herald Tribune C17 article on the net and failed miserably. Which edition was it in, and have you a link?

Thanks BFB

[chippy63]

BfB
I saw it in a paper copy of the Dec 9 Herald Trib, on the front page.
The link is www.heraldtribune.com, but I couldn't find the article when i searched their archive. The article is attributed to NY Times, so you might try there.
chippy

[Smoketoomuch]

Reports of C-17 hit by missile departing Baghdad airport. Landed safely. One of the 12 on board slightly injured.