IR Training Slots

[Stan Evil]

Over the past couple of months IR training slots at major airports have become like rocking-horse manure, with various excuses being made and NOTAMS being published as to why they're no longer available. There are some exceptions like EGBB where the guys and gals seem to work miracles feeding us in between all the big stuff but other places seem to find it 'too difficult'. If we don't get the training then there won't be any new pilots and so we'll all be out of a job!

[Gonzo]

Just out of interest, what types of 'excuses' and reason are being given?

And I would imagine that the Aerodrome Authority has more say in preventing training flights than ATC, certainly in the strategic sense.

[Red Four]

Perhaps you are trying the wrong airports?
Which airports, what aircraft type are you booking, and what reasons for a 'no' have you been given?

[topunicyclist]

I tried for a few weeks this autumn without success to get a training slot for a VOR/DME approach at Southampton - eventually I gave up as I just could not get a slot and went for an ILS approach at Bournemouth instead.

The reasons given for not being able to get a slot at Southampton were initially radar u/s due to maintenance (hence no slots available for VOR/DME approach training). Once it was back on line, the next reason was staff shortages due to sickness, then just no slots available whenever I phoned!

One morning my instructor and I had had enough and tried Bournemouth for an ILS approach. I phoned them and got a slot at the required time first attempt. Thanks Bournemouth!

[Evo]

Yeah, I've just about given up with VOR/DME at EGHI as well - before the recent radar outage at the end of sept there was no problem booking a slot. They were obviously unavailable when the radar was down, but since it has come back again i've had no luck. One more try, then it's EGHH for me too.

Reasons? Not usually been given one, but increased FlyBe traffic has been mentioned second-hand.

[almost professional]

if you are trying to get training slots at East Midlands the reason for the lack of availability is a major radar upgrade, this means the on airport primary is out of service, and we are using the primary from RAF cottesmore as a back up. The cover is nowhere as good and is prone to going off! As a measure to prevent the controllers from being put in a very difficult position in the event of failure, the decision was taken to reduce the traffic levels by cutting back the IFR training commitment
We hope to have the radar up and running soon, but until that time could our normal customers please bear with us.
(by the way jet circuits can be accomodated subject to the watch supervisors discretion-ring on the normal number!)

[Timothy]

I've long thought that there would be a business to be made out of buying one of those off-shore forts, maybe in the Thames Estuary, sticking an ILS and an NDB on it and making it solely an IR training facility.

Most IR training ends in a go-around anyway, so why not take advantage of that by not occupying a runway, and putting it out to sea where no-one is going to complain about the noise?

I guess that you could even put the ILS on a turntable and allow instructors to determine the wind vector.

The controller could sit in a nice warm office in Manston or Clacton, it could be procedural only, maybe within some Class D. I can't see why it could be made to work, at £25 an approach or whatever.

Any entrepreneurial ATCOs out there!?!?

W

[Red Four]

But WC, you're usually the first to complain about excessive airport charges:confused:
There are several airports with availability that charge a lot less than £25 for an ILS, (well for a PA28 anyway), why don't you support them?

[Serco Air Tragic]

WC, you build it, I'll work it.:cool:

[flower]

Beacon slots are limited at the larger airfields for many reasons, not least the amount of work involved with training aircraft.
We have periods during the day when we embargo training else-wise the ATCO has the potential to get overloaded. There have been times when we have had to " throw away" the trainer due an inability to fit them into the traffic sequence and that is a waste of time and money on your part as the pilot.
We have recently further limited are training capacity as our workload has increased but not our number of staff. It can be frustrating to see airfields which have a fully functioning ILS and DME nearby not used for such training simply because they are not protected by CAS. Perhaps Training schools need to look at these airfields for there training potential.

[Chilli Monster]

Flower

Lack of CAS doesn't stop us being used for training - as you may have noticed ;)

[Topofthestack]

Why don't all these IRT training establishments decamp to Lyneham when the MOD leave? Good runways, plenty of parking space, a nice little bit of CAS, ILS's, outside the TMA and lots of opportunities for 'airways' type routings north and south where no-one would be bothered, far away from Brize not to bother them; perfect location!

[Timothy]

4

What does EGMC charge for an approach, I wonder? I know that EGKB is only available to based aircraft. I did my IR at EGSS, but I bet they don't take a lot of training these days!

I was really thinking about heavier metal than PA28, but anyway the point is that if you can find slots where and when you need them, fine, use them.

I suppose that the irony of a PA28 is that it would take longer per approach, especially in strong winds. Maybe the answer would be to sell beacon time...£75 per half hour or whatever...rather than per approach. That would tie in better with the cost base.

I guess that you would offer 0800-2100/364, as aircraft would find it difficult and/or expensive to fly home outside those hours. If you acheived 50% occupancy that's a £350,000 business.

How many controllers would need to be employed? Presumably you would only need one ATCO at a time, and presumably there would be only one aircraft handled at a time. You don't need AFS, AIS, ramp or security personnel. You wouldn't want or need lights, so the maintenance costs would be just on the ILS, NDB and VHF.

I wonder....

W

[Chilli Monster]

Here's the first figure for your finances then WC.

Due to SCRATCOH you'd need to employ 5 Controllers for the operation (bearing in mind you only need APP, no ADC).

Your £350K business has just been hit with a minimum £160K wage bill (more if you have radar).

CM

[flower]

Chilli, as soon as I posted i realised I should have mentioned somewhere to the West of both of us !!!!

[Scott Voigt]

Stan Evil;

Your solution, come over here and get to fly where ever you want, when you want, shoot all the approaches you need. No slot times or reservations for an approach and no landing fees unless you go to the largest of the airports...

regards

Scott

[Timothy]

Chilli

Your £350K business has just been hit with a minimum £160K wage bill (more if you have radar). I think that this facility specifically does not want radar, as most IR training and testing is procedural.

So, as the main cost bases will be rent, repayment of loan and wages, half the turnover in wages doesn't sound too awful.

In reality, this is a business that should be run by five ATCOs who, for whatever reason, no longer can or want to work at NATS or SERCO and want to set up their own business. That way, their own income will depend on the success of their business, which in turn will depend on their own efforts and business acumen.

It may be that they have to start on less than the £32K you are suggesting, but may well end up with twice or three times that. Normal entrepreneurial start up situation.

W

[vintage ATCO]

Does the £160K include on-costs (NI & pension) if so it's down to £26K, WC.

Love to see the Men from the Ministry grasp the approval application for such an operation. Don't see you getting an ILS GP to work though!!! :D


VA

[Spitoon]

And it won't be long before controllers who can do procedural control will demand a premium for their services!

[Timothy]

Don't see you getting an ILS GP to work though!!! Why not? Maybe I am being stoopid, but I don't see the problem. Presumably as there is no question of guidance on the runway, the GS and LOC could be co-located?And it won't be long before controllers who can do procedural control will demand a premium for their services! Oh, yes...it was the thought of those "demanding" ATCOs that made me think that this idea would be best owned and operated by the ATCOs themselves.

If I were doing it (and I am not!) I would find a shortly to be or recently retired SATCO who has a history of getting approvals for MATSs and installation, who can start the business plan investigation and approvals process, while living off hes pension.

This person would have to do some trial marketing to the schools, IREs and airlines to see what the actual level of demand would be, and for what hours, and thereby work out staffing levels and investment requirements. During this period the other ATCOs, who are still working and therefore don't need any immediate return, can help with the administration and process in their spare time.

Thus the business plan doesn't have to include much salary in the start-up costs. Once it is known what the investment in equipment, commissioning and rent would be, the banks or VCs can be approached for a relatively modest sum (~£200K, I reckon.)

The commissioning could be done while the ATCOs still earn, indeed they may be able to train before they resign their day jobs.

There would then be a two or three month period after go-live when things would be a little tight, drawing on the reserves supplied by the capitalist, then....the sky's the limit.

Come on guys, where's your pioneering spirit?!?!

W

[vintage ATCO]

Don't see you getting an ILS GP to work though!!!

Why not? Maybe I am being stoopid, but I don't see the problem. Presumably as there is no question of guidance on the runway, the GS and LOC could be co-located?

Current GPs still require a bit of 'flat earth' in front of them, I think, to bounce the signal off. GP and LOC together? Each would have to be outside of the other's Critical Area. Of course, what you are describing is MLS. Saw one 'in a suitcase' once.


VA

[Timothy]

Each would have to be outside of the other's Critical Area. Why? They operate on very different frequencies, would they have to interfere?

I wonder how much flat earth GP needs. There are certainly plenty of runways sticking out to sea, so the maximum distance must be from threshold to TDZ.

Thinking you might be that very retiring SATCO!?!?

W

[West Coast]

For my own edification could some one in the know post the different charges involved for filing flight plans, instrument approaches, pattern work, etc.
Thanks

[Chilli Monster]

West Coast

I'm guessing you mean in the UK. Like everything everywhere is different.

For filing Flight Plans - nothing (just the cost of the phone call if you phone / fax it in)

Instrument Apps - depends on the weight of the aircraft. For a light aircraft up to 4000lbs we charge approx GBP6.50 with a 2 approach minimum charge.

Pattern work (touch and go's) - about GBP 5-6 each.

[West Coast]

CM
I did indeed mean the UK, thanks for clarifying.
Are these charges only for controlled airports? (as in ATC not airspace)

[Chilli Monster]

West Coast

This is for an ATC controlled airport, class 'G' airspace (U.K airspace allocation being different to the way it's done in the U.S) with radar, ILS/DME (both ends of the runway) and NDB/DME procedures.

Like I said in the original post though, everywhere is different and the charges are laid down by the individual airport owners, not by the ATC provider.

Uncontrolled airports are a different matter. For a start, lack of ATC under UK legislation means no instrument procedures. The only other charges then are for landing or pattern work. Again - everywhere is different but on the whole landing fees are between GBP 5 - 10 for a light single, some charge for touch and go's, some don't. The airfield I fly from (1/5 share in a PA28) is uncontrolled and we pay approx GBP 2700 per year for hangarage - that has the benefit though of unlimited landings / take-offs plus we have the facility of arriving / departing outside airfield hours (for a day trip to France for example when you want to set off early) during daylight. All we have to do is ask for the aircraft to be left outside the hangar the night before.

[ATCOJ30]

Stan: fair call re. availability of IR training in some parts of the UK. It's very much chicken-and-egg: industry periodically needs a supply of new pilots but many qualified folk sitting left or right hand seat of a commercial aeroplane gripe like hell if they think they're getting delayed by a training flight. ATC can't win by trying to be helpful and fair-minded, more often than not.

I had a long letter from the CFI at one of the UK's leading IR schools last year lamenting this situation and asking me to attend a seminar so I could better appreciate his situation. I sent a very lengthy response and suggested ways of how he could utilise slots at our airport, as an example - never got so much as an acknowldgement. Thanks a lot...

We are available for IR training 0700-2200 every day. So how come the IR training organisations who generally use us only seem to want to fly during "office" hours, roughly 1000-1600? That's 6 hours out of a possible 15 hours. We embargo some of that time for training too for commercial movements. We also have a very busy based IR school who, understandably, have first call on the slots. By my maths, that's about 9 hours of available time unused, each and every day, however.

My suggestions:

1. Be flexible with the instructor/students timing and use the available slots at airports to best effect. That might mean getting up a lot earlier in the morning or flying until later in the evening.

2. Keep to the booked slot times as much as you can. That way, ATC doesn't end up with several (slow) trainers all wanting to do approaches at the same time.

3. Okay- you want to shoot procedural approaches but taking radar vectors is often much easier for ATC to fit you into a pattern.

4. Consider "basing" an aircraft at an airport for the day, thereby using the available IR slots for perhaps several students, in rotation. You might save a lot on transit times and may be able to negotiate a "block" fee for multiple approaches/landings for the day.

5. If you need to carry out holds for a protracted period, pick an airport where the hold isn't overhead the airport and where the departures aren't going to be procedurally stopped off underneath your level. That annoys everyone!

6. Aircraft types/speeds are crucial to ATC. Unless you can do 120-140kts down the approach, chances are you're going to cause a busy ATCO to think twice before accepting you in the first place and then fitting you into a sequence of commecial flights when you are ready. At the busier commercial airports, fact is that trainers have lowest priority, often generate little commercial revenue, can overload ATCOs very easily, clog up the RTF and upset the commercial operators. Like it or not, this is fact, I'm afraid. I say that as someone who's worked IR trainers at several UK airports for over 20 years - with some enthusiasm. A C130 doing approaches at a busy commercial is no problem. A Cessna 150 probably will be!

Hope that helps. Trying to put a positive spin on this one for you 'cos I know it's a problem and I do have some sympathy.

[Stan Evil]

ATCOJ30 - lot's of constructive stuff there - thanks!

All we need now is some decent weather.:cool:

[FWA NATCA]

Stan,

If IR Training Slots are that difficult to obtain then I hereby extend an invitation for anyone and everyone to do their IR Training at FWA. The only time we deny pratice approaches is when traffic doesn't permit, which isn't often.

We have the following approaches:
ILS 5 CAT I and II
ILS 32
BC 14
VOR 5, 14, 23
NDB 32
GPS 5, 23, 14, 32
HIGH VOR 5, 23, 14,
HIGH TACN 5, 23
Survailance Approaches 5, 23, 14 (plus no gyro, fun fun)
Multiple DME ARC approaches.

Mike

[matspart3]

Stan
If it's non-precision approaches you're after, come to Gloucester for your NDB/DME's or SRA's. We operate a 30-minute training 'slot' system between 0830-1930, but can also use radar vectoring to squeeze in the extras.
In terms of traffic volume, we're busier than the big Regionals like Birmingham, Cardiff or Bristol, but most of our predominantley VFR traffic potters around at roughly the same speed, making IFR trainers easier to accomodate.
PM me if you'd like further info

[Steamhead]

Training is bad enough but one can duck and dive as suggested above.
The real problem arises when the test with the CAA (UK) arrives.
Most of the examiners use a lot of imagination to arrive at a route to satisfy the test requirements.
However, an airways section is mandatory and it wouldn't be the first test I have seen cancalled because of the flight plan being refused, and I find this totally unexceptable.
Can you imagine the stress on the poor candidate!
People need to be aware of the cost and stress involved in the IRT.

[niknak]

Steamhead

.......and do you think the examiner is the only one using their imagination?
It may come as a suprise to you, but they do actually coordinate with ATC before the test to try and ensure that we all do our very best for the candidate, however, sometimes it all goes pear shaped, and that's when the candidate is expected to show some initiative while we're on the ground working our nuts off to accomodate you.

Ineviatebly, very occassionally, some part of the route has to be cancelled, and the test retaken, yes it is costly and stressful, but you'll encounter similar problems in any part of professional aviating, accept it and get on with it.

[SensibleATCO]

Niknak..........
You are talking absolute BOLLOCKS.......
I can't beleive that you are an ATCO

For us ATCO's that work Midlands we now have a procedure in place that automatically instructs training traffic to RC. This is regardless of traffic levels.....including when you are sitting there with your finger up your **** or on (another) break.

we're on the ground working our nuts off to accomodate you.

Haha..........

Ineviatebly, very occassionally, some part of the route has to be cancelled, and the test retaken, yes it is costly and stressful, but you'll encounter similar problems in any part of professional aviating, accept it and get on with it.

What planet are you on ?
It is that sort of attitude that really does need to be kicked into touch by some professional and firm management (along with sickness rates)

WAKE UP NICNAK AND START TO GET A GRIP ON THINGS

Regards
SATCO

[055166k]

Think you'll find that IR flight tests with a bona fide EXM callsign are afforded priority.....check with your local ATC provider and ask to see the MATS part 1 [ a must-have document]. Please report any instances of refused flightplans and any explanation given as to the reason for refusal......this could be of interest to a wider audience.....such as the CAA!

[spekesoftly]

Flights using the CAA 'EXAM' c/s are afforded priority over other training flights, but the same priority as other 'Normal Flights' (i.e. Flights that have filed a flight plan and are conforming with normal routing procedures).

[Chilli Monster]

In two years of working at a unit which sees a lot of 'EXM' callsigns I've not seen one cancelled or an airways segment refused for ATC reasons. Plenty of cancellations due to the weather not being half decent though.

[flower]

I'm with Chilli there,
I have never seen an EXAM flight cancelled except in exceptional circumstances, IE weather, failure of NAV aids or staff shortages.
When EXAM flights appear, I know myself I try to do everything I can to accommodate them beyond the normal requirements as I am fully aware just how much it has taken for the candidate to get to this point and the nerves they may well be suffering that day. Every ATCO must surely remember the day of their Validation boards.
We try not to deviate them where possible, however they are to be treated as normal flights so sometimes for Air Traffic Reasons we may require them to alter their requested Plan.

[BoeingMEL]

From personal experience spanning c.30 years in training and planning, I have to praise every ATCO and CAAFU examiner I encountered. How many out there can remember the 80s when there was a real shortage of CAAFU examiners? I could name quite a few who volunteered to work very long hours,,, sometimes driving from LBA to PIK to help clear the backlog. And how many reacall the ATCOs who also "stayed over" so that one or 2 more EXM approaches could be completed?

Truth is guys, this slot frustration in training is to prepare you for the very conditions you will encounter when you finally get that job! Good Luck to you all.... CAAFU and ATCOs too! bm

[niknak]

SATCO

I make no apology for ruffling your feathers, and stand by what I said - we (well - the majority of us) work very hard to help, but just occassionally it doesn't work out, exactly as BM and Chilli have also stated.

I'm not sure what the rest of your diatribe alluded to, perhaps you could enlighten us when you've got of your soapbox of self importance.

[ATCOJ30]

Re: IR Tests. Sure, they get priority over training flights and are to be accorded the same priority as "normal" flights. However, that may still mean that ATC look at the speed differentials when, say, a s-l-o-w Duchess or Seneca is being used for the test and take a view that it's the commercial jet or turbo-prop that's far easier to make No. 1 in a sequence than the EXM. I think every ATCO I've ever known in 30 years feels he/she wants to do their level-best for the student undergoing the test but commercial reality is ever-present, to say nothing of the natural inclination of many ATCOs to take the easiest way of resolving the situation for them, at the time. As for CAAFU examiners talking to ATC beforehand, that's a new one on me...