When to call MAYDAY

[Allan]

Does your company state in its operations manual part A under what conditions the flight crew should elect to call MAYDAY or PAN PAN?

[Captain Stable]

I would be very interested to hear of any company that did so - anyone?

The reason I would be so interested is that such a subject should be covered in basic AIRMANSHIP.

Furthermore, MAYDAY is a situation in which time is of the essence. I would be very concerned to think that aircrew might be looking through the manual trying to find the right page on which it is dictated by the company whether their current situation is considered by the author (whose decision is, of course, final) to justify calling MAYDAY.

Sorry - IMO it should not be there. Use your basic skills, airmanship and professional judgement. The manual cannot cover all situations. So don't bother covering any. You will merely distract from the immediate problem in hand - flying the aircraft and (hopefully) getting it on the ground safely.

[M.85]

In my opinion,

PAN PAN is when one doesnt feel like messing around in the air for too long..and MAYDAY when everyone buckles up and no time to call for 3xPAN PAN...
And just before you have to kiss your ass goodbye:you say BRACE BRACE.

Safe Flying,

M.85

[beamer]

IF IN DOUBT CALL 'MAYDAY' - YOU CAN ALWAYS DOWNGRADE YOUR SITUATION LATER. 'PAN' IS A WASTE OF BREATH AROUND MOST OF THE WORLD - ATC WILL NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT !

[esportadude]

I thought it was to do with "grave and imminent danger " !:)

[Daysleeper]

Quoting from ops manual part B (QRH) preamble for the B757.

" There are some situations wich always require declaration of an emergency ....etc"
it lists the following
" Engine failure or Fire
Wheel Well Fire
Cabin smoke or fire which cannot be immediately eliminated or extinguished
One source of AC power remains
One Hydraulic system remains
Checklist contains the phrase 'declare an emergency' "
and obviously
" any other situation crew determined ...... may have adverse effect on safety of flight."

[Cougar]

We have a recommendation in SOP's (4 engine aircraft) - loss of 1 engine only = PAN, loss of 2 engines = MAYDAY (safely fly on three engines at all weights etc generally).

Of course it is only a recommendation.

[mondriver]

Sorry guys....

from past experience......you can completely FORGET about using PAN unless you are in UK controlled airspace, and as for MAYDAY....you will be lucky if you get the expected/required response from any other foreign ATC service.....other than english speaking.

Flame me at will....but I am going from past personal experience and from my Company's experience of Mayday experiences.

[BlueEagle]

As a rule of thumb only, MAYDAY is appropriate when there is an imminent threat to life whereas PAN is appropriate when, if things don't change soon, then it will be a MAYDAY situation.

An ops manual can only tell you about certain circumstances that most definitely are MAYDAY but you would be expected to know these anyway.

[Yankee_Doodle_Floppy_Disk]

A "PAN" call is fully understood in New Zealand. They are certainly understood around the Central North Island.

I expect my Trans-Tasman colleagues would also be familiar with them.

If the situation is only worthy of a "PAN", then it should not matter if it needs to be repeated until understood. If the situation is such that there is no time to repeat it, then it should probably have been a "Mayday" to start with.

[OzExpat]

PAN is known and understood in my part of the world too. I used it once, many years ago and got the immediate attention that was needed. I had to upgrade to MAYDAY during the subsequent course of the flight - and that had the desired effect as well.

[beamer]

It seems that PAN is a British creation that has spread over many years to 'the colonies' - Sadly however Manuel will simply say 'Que' ..................

[OzExpat]

I haven't had much need to refer to ICAO's Pans Rac document, but I'm sure there used to be a reference to PAN in there. Compliance with a Pans document is not mandatory, but if it isn't fully implemented, the State must notify the fact in its AIP. If "Manuel's" country has done so, I feel sure that Jeppesen, and other such service providers, will have detected it and made relevent notes for its clients.

I wonder if the FAA uses the term in its publications? Does it appear in Jar-land documents? If there is significant inconsistency in this, then maybe the matter should be raised with your local ALPA rep., to take up with IATA who, in turn, will (or should) take it up with ICAO and the State concerned, as a matter related to aviation safety.

Or maybe I'm just living in Disneyland after all...

[PPRuNe Towers]

Regarding Pan calls. Please heed the words of Beamer and Mondriver. They're providing hard won experience from their own companies' operations.

I know with absolute certainty that both can quote examples extensively and on a worldwide basis.

The rule of thumb they and their colleagues have discovered has been noted above. Pan is in the vocab of controllers of anglo influenced, trained or speaking nations, some european countries and areas like the Middle East with a strong core of ex-pat ATC staff. Anywhere else is a recipe for a baffled silence.

Rob

[Anchorman]

MayDay and Pan

Both Mayday and Pan call terms come from the French - Mayday deriving from M'Aidez (Help Me) and Pan deriving from Panne (Breakdown or broken).

Both terms have the same meaning under the internation aviation laws as under the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) - that is to say if the situation does not place the craft and its occupants in grave and imminent danger, then you call Pan-Pan.

In my profession, a Pan call would be for example a major steering failure, or propulsion loss in open water, but you place a nasty rocky lee shore nearby to drift onto and obviously it would be a Mayday.

I can see clearly that a Pan call would have little mileage in the air, as you do not want a graduated response in the field services ("He only needs one truck as he said Pan"). If you have a problem which is not something you are trained to cope with and continue normal flight with, then you have a problem, and it should be a Mayday, giving you full support from the ground.

Sods law dictates if it hasn't gone fully wrong yet, it probably will at 200' on the approach to your chosen piste.

As a pilot, I interpret very differently the rules of when to say what that when I am on the bridge of a superyacht, and a Mayday would come markedly sooner on the 'Oh ******'-ometer from the cockpit that the bridge.

Thats my view of things from sea level. I'm reading with interest the views of those under Company SOP's who have to follow procedures whilst contemplating if they themselves are happy with the developing situation as they decide what to use.

Cheers :confused:

That's my view:D

[OzExpat]

I've never thought of it as a method of achieving a graduated form of response. It's more a matter of priority in communications and traffic handling. Thus, a call of "PAN" will take precedence over someone else who has just provided a position report, or an enroute weather report, etc.

If someone then calls "MAYDAY", that communication gets the priority over PAN calls and routine communications.

The same sort of priority should apply to aircraft approaching an airport for landing. In the instance where a PAN call is made, that aircraft gets priority for landing over everyone else... unless someone else turns up screamin MAYDAY. Well, that's how I've always understood it and, notwithstanding the hard won experience of those claiming that PAN is a useless call in some parts of the world, I believe it has a clear implication for safety of flight.

That was why I suggested that some action needs to be taken in regard to the countries where "PAN" is unknown. But, then, I guess that if you've got the sort of trouble that requires a PAN call in a country like that, you've surely got even bigger problems than a lack of knowledge of PAN... :sad:

[FJJP]

I would use MAYDAY anywhere in the world. PAN I would use in the UK; everywhere else I would 'DECLARE AN EMERGENCY' and once acknowledged would state the nature and my intentions. I've found that to be the most effective throughout my flying experience.

The key words 'MAYDAY' and 'EMERGENCY' appear to be universally recognised.

[beamer]

FJJP

Succinct and to the point - after 25 years flying around the world I could not agree more

[DouglasDigby]

A discussion point, from an "orange" flight safety magazine, same topic of use of Mayday/Pan calls: "An engine failure, even on take-off, would not normally necessate a Mayday call, although further complications may well justify this." Hmmm..... for me, in a twin-engined aircraft, if I get an engine failure on take-off, the Mayday pro-word would be getting some serious use! Regardless of the cause of the failure, by using Mayday, I am telling ATC (& other traffic) that I wish the airspace to be cleared (possible climb/performance problems - emergency turn rather than the SID?), & if appropriate, the runway to be kept sterile. Weather & performance considerations permitting, I will be landing back at the same airfield fairly shortly!

Apart from that, as mentioned on the "multi-engine failure" Tech Log thread, there are circumstances that could lead to imminent problems with the live engine, & I don't want to be the one to find them!!

[Captain Stable]

Thanks for that, Douglas.

I am astonished that anyone would go into print with anything so crass and stupid as that assertion.

Loss of an engine, particularly on takeoff, most certainly is a MAYDAY situation. Anything else is playing with the lives of all on board.

[S76Heavy]

It looks like management are afraid to make the headlines when the spotters brigade with their hand held receivers hear their C/S and Mayday in the same sentence. I certainly would want all the help I can get when I lose half of my engines..

[FWA NATCA]

In most instances where you are under positive RADAR control by an En-Route facility or an Approach Control, declaring an emergency with ATC is sufficient. The only time that I could see utilizing Mayday, or PAN PAN is in extreme situations.

Whenever you declare an emergency our actions are dependant upon your needs so it is important that you tell us as soon as possible what the situation is and what assistance that you need.

To be honest the only time that I have seen Mayday used is when aircraft have been flying along VFR and have experienced an emergency situation. They broadcast the Mayday on 121.5 or 243.0 (because they don't know the local ATC frequency) and with luck there is someone nearby that can lend assistance.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[Captain Stable]

How do you declare an emergency quickly and succinctly? "Mayday, mayday, mayday..."

[Waldo.P]

How would you all react to a "mayday"transmission from an aircraft that is parked at the gate?

[Yankee_Doodle_Floppy_Disk]

The rule of thumb they and their colleagues have discovered has been noted above. Pan is in the vocab of controllers of anglo influenced, trained or speaking nations, some european countries and areas like the Middle East with a strong core of ex-pat ATC staff. Anywhere else is a recipe for a baffled silence.

This is a much more accurate summary than the initial "PAN is only recognised in the UK" assertion.

I quite agree with those that believe you are wasting your breath uttering "PAN" in a country where English is a second language. That is a judgement call which can only be made with experience. I was not disputing that. I was pointing out that such calls will be understood in New Zealand and as Oz Expat has confirmed they will be understood both sides of the Tasman.

I get extremely pi$$ed off with pilots who use wishy-washy phrases like "we have a bit of a problem". You either have a Distress or an Urgency situation or you are just the next aircraft in the sequence.
[/Rant]

When dealing with Controllers whose English is challenged then I guess you use whatever technique you believe will get you the assistance you require.

Perhaps if you fly regularly through a particular piece of foreign airspace, you might want to ask the local pilots what phrase they use or what is the word for "emergency" in that language.

Maybe somebody could post a list here.

[Just a thought.]

[keithl]

Sometimes, some places, you even have to insist a bit with "Mayday".
I only ever declared Mayday but once. Military twinjet, engine fire on take off, I call "Mayday, etc etc". Response, in sleepy drawl: "Aroger, yourra takeoff time 0852, now contacta de appraoch on 119.5, bye-bye".

[Cap 56]

For immidiate danger to aircraft or occupants, requiring immediate attention and /or priority the call is MAYDAY

all the rest is PAN

[overhere]

Mike,

Safety demo usually done during pushback/engine start. The only information we are giving them at the point that will be useful in a ground fire is the location of exits. In the event of a fire before/during the demo they will become very clear with crew screaming from them for pax to come towards them, along with the emergency lighting .

On taxi in, crew are by the doors after they are disarmed. In the event something were to go wrong, the doors can still be quickly armed and opened. The seatbelt light is not swicthed off until engines are shutdown, therefore pax should not be up/in overhead lockers etc until after the threat of fire has all but ceased.

[Captain Stable]

The problem, Cap 54, as has been pointed out already, is that in many countries "Pan" is not recognised. You therefore need, under some circumstances, to consider and make a professional judgement. It's not as black and white as you would like to have it.