View Full Version : emulating the US?

chief wiggum
4th Dec 2003, 12:10
If we are emulating the US airspace system, which is "OHHH so safe" .......... does this mean that we also should be flying wearing our baseball caps backwards, a six-shooter in our hip pockets, and Jerry Springers biography in the seat pocket in lieu of the "inflight magazine' ?

WHY WHY WHY are we to follow the US in almost everything that we endeavour ? Why can't we be recognised for what we are ? a smart, independant country which has the nouse to change operations to adapt to our unique country !

What happens next ? we get "De-iceing equipment"at DARWIN? Snow ploughs in Cairns? I mean, the US have them everywhere... why don't we ?

What part of Australia is DICK gonna F**K with next ? maybe a push to have tomato sauce renamed "Ketchup " ?

If Dick likes the US so much... why doesn't he F**K off and live there? I will even chip in for your airfare!... and take 'the minister for Qantas" as your carry on baggage please

4th Dec 2003, 12:27
You can't blame dick he has made money all his life ripping others off. Dick Smith Electronics = Tandy, Australian Geographic = National Goegraphic, Matches, biscuits, airspace systems. Easily the most unoriginal person I have ever seen. To note though is that he gets in, makes his buck then runs before it all goes wrong. If I were a V8 super car driver or a professional dancer I would be very worried because when he runs and hides from this one, you may be next!

Sheep Guts
4th Dec 2003, 19:56
The current NAS debacle, to me is tsill in need of review and if the Ministers cant get that vibe by now well, lets give them the arse in the next election I say. I just wish I knew who Latham was never heard of him.

Back to the airpsace. Emulating the US system is ok ,BUT really we are never going to emulate the same traffic numbers. Probabaly at any time over Australia there are 200- 300 aircraft max flying around compared to 4000 aircraft in the USA ona normal day, with a peek of 7000 for this last thanks giving weekend.

To me I dont think were are ready for this stuff next. The world media, CNN, BBC WORLD, are latching onto this debacle and its making the current government look like a bunch of GOONs, do something proactive . POSTPONE THE IMPLEMENTATAION NOW!


5th Dec 2003, 08:32
Let's see - dentention without due process a la "Woomera" centre, inhumane traeatment of children in said centres, illegal invasion of foreign nations, increasing jingoistic arrogance from politicians - yep, Australia is pretty much like the US!

You called??? :}


5th Dec 2003, 08:41
NAS........... It does work. The only major difference between the U.S. and us (apart from the volume) is that they have the appropriate numbers of controllers to provide proper coverage.

You hear this debacle about a "near MIS" down near melbourne the other day. They were in Class C (or A.. whatever they use down there). It was the controllers stuff up!

Its not a case of "using everything the yanks use" but there have been several costly and expensive "australian Self efforts" in the past that have cost the country billions. One good example is the Collins class Submarine Debacle.

All this system is essentially doing is mimicing that used in the U.S. which is very similar to that used un Europe. Maybe we are the backwards ones for not using their system in the first place. Isolating ourselves from the rest of the world, making us tand individually rather then a global effort.

5th Dec 2003, 08:46
Bula you are obviously the latest in a long line of sacrificial lambs being thrown in here to sprout off unresearched idiocy. Please befor you type again have a think and have a read. 65nm Melbourne at F175 is in E. Modify your post thank you.

/me pats Bula on the head. Drive through thanks. Next?

5th Dec 2003, 08:54
Bula, here is a quote from a previous post of yours...I had the unfortunate situation of being the aircraft on Finals for the northern Runway at the time. For those who like to speculate keep your traps shut. As anyone knows in this situation anything could have happened Now, what was that advice about speculating and traps shut ? Moron. Do you even understand the difference between class C and class E, or have you been to the John Anderson flying school? All this system is essentially doing is mimicing that used in the U.S. Yes, except without most of the infrastructure. Sort of like building a bridge, without any of the supports. At least it's a global-looking bridge.

5th Dec 2003, 09:28
NZer - not to mention insulting behaviour to our neighbours (some with bigger armies than our population) and Return to the Cold War with Son of Starwars. The real issue I have is the compaceny of Aus - but I wonder if we really have a choice - just do as you say chaps and everything will be just fine.

and where is the safety case for ABM's in "E" I wonder!!!!!!!

(Got to admire the Kiwis - they are their own people - courage and national pride for NZ - not wanting to be a 53rd state of anywhere.).

5th Dec 2003, 10:17

It was the controllers stuff up!

Was it just?, and how/why so, please enlighten us!

5th Dec 2003, 11:59

Don't forget the Canadians. They are also a fine people with plenty of backbone.

5th Dec 2003, 13:58
Yep, this seems about as popular as 'Dr Pepper'.

5th Dec 2003, 14:26
hey, I like Dr Pepper :}

5th Dec 2003, 15:15
....Vegemite in Kentucky ?

5th Dec 2003, 16:17

Admire the Piwis!:yuk:

Isolationists in the South Pacific. Piss poor help in a regional security role too.

Never in their history have they faced a national challenge and gone out on a limb.

And they are all here like NZER! Bludgers.

5th Dec 2003, 19:35
That's what I enjoy so much about this Bulletin Board... there's always at least one "wind-up artist"... :p

6th Dec 2003, 04:25
Brisboy - correct and agreed - good bunch the KANUCKS (I have friends!!!). Don't mind saying GOLF FOXTROT if that's what they believe to be true.

Gnadenberg - you hit the nail on the head - that's the point - They do what THEY want to do. The stuff about military support is out of order though. They are ALWAYS there mate.

The real talent of these chaps eg "The Gang of Three", their humble servants and especially the latest comedic presentation by our foreign minister - They do so well at not bursting into laughter at what they are saying. And some people actually believe this stuff! Me - couldn't do it - no self control.

But - never flown in NZ although I believe they had a toe-cutter chappy wander through and fairly stuff things up in the eighties - just before he came here and did the same. Believe he escaped to Singa with the Feds in fast pursuit.

I guess we are The Best at letting people do that - must be an Ausy ******** gene or something????

Must go - gotta build a bunker.

Chris Higgins
7th Dec 2003, 00:41
Flying since 1983, primary training in Port Macquarie, flown in New Zealand (1988) and in America since 1990......never been in a near-miss incident in the US.

I actually nearly hit a Macchi at Williamtown who was out of the firing range by more than 25 miles in 1989. So close that I could smell the kerosene in the cockpit of the piston single I was flying, (the airframe nearly filled the window).

There is one caveat to the airspace dilemma you are facing, that all VFR pilots comply with reporting procedures and transponders remain on at all times. Additionally, Part 25 turbine aircraft are kept on a descent profile that for the most part alleviates conflicts with VFR traffic. Many of you are correct in your assertations that the American Airspace, (which is actually the ICAO model, not American), does have it's limitations. I would really prefer to have all aircraft on a full reporting basis, whether VFR or not.

Can you imagine trying to get a word in edge-ways going into New York with that proposal though? Really not a practical solution.

A lot of you have been critical of the "American" system and that of your own. Remember, both are inherently different environments. There are less than 10,000 aircraft on the Australian register and the Yanks now have almost 250,000. The Canadians have almost 25,000.

Another interesting set of numbers. The American Airspace System represents more than 48.6% of world traffic, but has less than 7% of the world's accidents. It can't all be just "good luck".

7th Dec 2003, 01:01
I wonder how many of those people who are opposed to the US model as a basis for an Oz system have ever flown there? Or anywhere else apart from Oz? How much of oppositional argument is based on local prejudice? There was a similar situation in the early '90s with the last great system change.

Similarly, how many of those for NAS have experience elsewhere, and under what system?

I realise that differences have been raised between NAS & US. How significant are those differences? Many people comment about lack of radar in Oz. Not all of the US has radar available although most places do. In terms of trafic mix & density ie comparing like with like, how much does the application of NAS in Oz differ from the US?

I have Oz, UK & US ATPLs. I vastly prefer the US system over anything I've seen so far - including Oz of up to 20 years ago. I'm not entirely sure, but I think I'd rather Oz contracted out it's need to the FAA & ditch DoA/DoT/DoTaC/CAA/CASA/Air Services.

Kwaj mate
8th Dec 2003, 08:51
Remember well that one of our Labour PM's brought the troops home during WWII.
Where were we when the times got tough.
The K1w1's stepped up to the plate when required after the japs decided to join in & were up to their necks in the stouch.
We may not like them but they don't step backwards when their mate needs a hand in a fight.

8th Dec 2003, 14:29
GNADENBURG - "Isolationists in the South Pacific. Piss poor help in a regional security role too.

Never in their history have they faced a national challenge and gone out on a limb"

I'm not sure what Aussies get taught in history class these days, but you need to check out NZ's ratio of troops to population in WW1 and 2 !!

Of course facts can be disturbing to some ........

Capt Claret
8th Dec 2003, 15:14
Reference your comment, turbine aircraft are kept on a descent profile that for the most part alleviates conflicts with VFR traffic.

I fly a 146 in and out of Alice Springs on a regular basis, as do many others. We're in Class E from FL245 to A045. There is no descent profile we can fly that alleviates conflict with VFR Traffic.

Conflicting VFR traffic moitoring the appropriate frequency, could be on Alice Tower - 118.3, Melbourne Centre - 128.85, though they are encouraged not to talk on an ATC frequency, or 119.8 the local Class G frequency.

As IFR I'm handed from Melb Centre, 128.85 to Alice Tower 118.3 or vice versa. I've only got two VHF and can't monitor both of the other two logical possibilities.

As an aside, I was asked about the airspace this weekend gone by two lawyer friends, one a Law Dean at a Southern Uni, the other a high flyer in the Attourney General's dept. Both were aghast. :oh:

Chris Higgins
12th Dec 2003, 09:51
I have been especially busy with the snow these last two weeks, luckily the company paid me a whole bunch of overtime, now I can afford to sit by my fireplace and write back.

I used to fly for the old Tillair and actually lived in Alice Springs in 1987.

The basic problem that the Australian Airspace model continues to have is:

1) Too much IFR with non-reporting VFR.

2) Too little radar coverage.

3) Non Controlled Airspace that extends too high, close to trunk-line airports.

Your BAE-146/ Avro experience on descent actually sounds very typical for any airliner. Although I fly Hawker 1000s now, I am typed on the 73' and used to teach the 75/767 for a major airline here in the US.

The NAS could benefit from what I can only refer to as a shallower upside-down wedding cake. I would put the top of the E Airspace at only around 15,000 feet. Anyone that needs to be on supplemental oxygen or needs to have traffic cleared for an emergency descent, shouldn't be doing it VFR anyway.

Anything above, say 15,000 feet should be Class A ICAO, requiring an IFR clearance, end of story.

Like Americans, Australians value their freedoms, but there is one underlying freedom that we must not ignore. The general public, who may or may not partake in aviation, has a right to be reasonably protected from aircraft crashing through their living room windows while they eat dinner with their families.

Most countries, including the United States, require instrument ratings for commercial rated flights outside of 25 miles radius. This is certainly a difficult propositon for pilots that fly for months in the outback without seeing a cloud, so I don't really see it as a practical Australian proposition.

Restricting airspace between RPT and GA flights that are not operating IFR is the only sensible response to a country that does not have adequate radar coverage to emulate the "American" system. There is no reason to prevent IFR flights by private and other General Aviation aircraft in a positive control zone, they must simply be IFR equipped, rated and reporting.

Something tells me, I'm probably going to have to go back down there one of these days to help sort some of this mess out.

12th Dec 2003, 17:28

The troops brought home to protect Australia and NZ from invasion. What are you suggesting?


Bloody good rear echolon troops the Kiwis. Nothing more and nothing less.

The tokenism nature of the rear echelon to efforts abroad usually has Third World nations contributing. What a bonus to have English speaking Kiwis in the rear.:p

And on boat people . How about we fuel them up and send them onto NZ like our Muslim friends up north do to us?