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View Full Version : Jetstar crewing.. Honest questions


Jetsbest
1st Dec 2003, 13:11
OK, I'll be up front and say I'm a QF mainline guy, and not a regular around here.

I've been concerned about the LCC and the 'options' it gives/doesn't give all pilot groups. I've heard the AIPA position, the QF position, and have tried to read between the lines of both. Neither have inspired me much. I've heard the various arguments re pilot efficiency, pay convergence, and the de-valuation of the piloting profession: generally emotive and therefore, I find, less convincing than just the facts.

Firstly, can I summarise what I think has occurred?
a. Impulse pilots have generally been happy with their lot re route structure, rostering, basing and pay,
b. Impulse pilots felt a job security threat coming if QF did not extend the leases on the 717s,
b. to get a 'foot in the door', they have agreed to fly the LCC A320s for the same pay as 717s, and
d. at some point in the past, they have genuinely tried to be represented by AIPA, and been genuinely told to p**s off.

Rumour has it that Impulse pilots have 'unanimously' supported the recent developments. AIPA is saying that it 'definitely has a seat at the table'. Now, I can understand pilots being keen to preserve their job security... no complaints from me there. But I have the following questions for anyone, particularly a real Impulse driver, prepared to enlighten me.
1. Did Impulse pilots really feel excluded from all chance of benefitting from QF expansion without agreeing to these conditions?
2. Was the prospect of offering to do the job for Virgin pay-rates considered (ie QF-10% vice QF-30%)?
3. IF Impulse had been wound up, did Impulse pilots feel that they couldn't ever get a job in a different wholly-owned-fast-growing subsidiary (eg Jetstar?)?
4. Is there a (Virgin-like) expectation that 'if we help them get it up-n-running, they'll look after us with pay parity in a couple of years'?

It won't be a revelation to some, but I feel that AIPA and the I.P.G have been played to a tee by people with vested interests in bonuses achieved through making a misrepresentaition believable. I think most AIPA members are frustrated that, despite all the QF hype about how Australian Airlines and the agreements reached were a complete success, it has counted for nought this time around.

No, I'm NOT angry at Impulse folks. But, as no doubt AIPA has in the past, is it possible you have been scare-mongered into a deal you'll come to resent to some degree some day?
Is there any Impulse person out there prepared to explain their position. Sincerely, thanks.

Sperm Bank
1st Dec 2003, 14:15
Jetsbest a good post. I think until such time as ALL professional pilots in this country join the SAME organisation and have the intestinal fortitude to guts it out with these aggressive management initiatives, we are destined to a bleak future. Having management pilots in the top end of a organisation for the rank and file is farcical. Hopefully the Impulse lads have not been muzzled from comment.

Australia2
1st Dec 2003, 14:44
A good post, particularly with reference to the vested interests involved. Definately worth consideration by pilots on both sides of the fence. I too feel, the Impulse guys can achieve a better outcome for themselves ( and in the long term everyone) if they are prepared carefully look at all the factors involved when making decisions.
As stated by Sperm Bank, we face a bleak future without some co-operation between each other.

Going Boeing
1st Dec 2003, 14:51
Jetsbest - a good post but point D of your summary is incorrect. After QF bought Impulse the then AIPA president addressed Impulse pilots to assure them of support and offered suggestions as to how they could improve their industrial situation (Gerry would have sacked them if they had tried to join a union). Some legal and administrative support was also provided by the AIPA office staff. They did form the I.P.G but to my knowledge they never approached AIPA about being covered by AIPA.

Labia Majora
1st Dec 2003, 15:46
A good post as previously said.

I wonder were they will get the rest of the crew from to crew all 23 A320s.....

Douglas Mcdonnell
1st Dec 2003, 17:20
Jet best- good post mate. AIPA has been fairly involved, but in the backround. I think from what I can gather, up front representation was, and is, a hot political subject that was never sorted out.

To AIPA s credit, the current president seems to be a realy good bloke who has inherited a very difficult situation.

woftam
1st Dec 2003, 18:15
Agree,but what was the last bloke doing all this time?
:confused:

Skyhawk XP
1st Dec 2003, 19:37
Will the Jetstar pilots use the QF A330 simulator(s) for training and proficiency checks ???.

Jetsbest
1st Dec 2003, 19:45
Skyhawk, I think you'll find that the Ansett A320 sim building is already conveniently located just off Tullamarine Airport, and is available for very attractive rental rates!

Skyhawk XP
1st Dec 2003, 20:16
Jetsbest the ex AN A320 simulator was sold some time ago and has since been removed from the centre.

404 Titan
1st Dec 2003, 20:58
Skyhawk XP

Jetstar will require an A320 sim as an A330 will not cover the endorsement and on going training/renewal. Whether they get their own or use someone else’s will depend on availability and costing it out. I would suggest that when they eventually get 23 aircraft they will need their own sim.

Le Pilot
1st Dec 2003, 21:37
JetsBest

HISTORY:

When QF acquired Impulse I with another TC from the Pulse had a meeting with CM in his apartment next to South Bank.
We asked him if we could join AIPA.
He said "not possible at this stage"
We went to meet the AIPA pres to work with QF, not against them.

We also had a few discussions with the AFAP but to align with them was to give us no say within the QF group.

So the IPG was formed.

Jetsbest
1st Dec 2003, 22:27
SKyhawk, thanks...that answers that then. D'oh.:O

Le Pilot, thanks too. It's a shame that the chance to revisit that meeting and pursue it more vigourously was missed by each group. 20/20 hindsight I guess. Good luck with your arrangements if you're still a 'pulser'... would you care to comment on my points 1-4?

Le Pilot
1st Dec 2003, 22:42
Can't really help with your questions.. Left the Pulse 2 yrs ago but have regular contact with a few.

The current IPG is made up of mostly the original B1900 blokes who are now Capts on the B717.
They felt that their current wicket was pretty good, why dig it up?

I do feel that AIPA could have been more pro-active when the Pulse was consumed.
AIPA should have found a way to bring the Pulse pilots into the fold as requested.

Rich-Fine-Green
1st Dec 2003, 22:45
I wonder if the Airbus deal of the century includes an A320 sim or access to one.

With a common fleet - maybe QF/Jetstar and AirNZ can at least 'share' a sim without the ACCC getting too upset!.

Beer Can Dreaming
2nd Dec 2003, 06:41
The Sim is really a mute point.
They could use the Air NZ sim if Airbus wont come to the party and supply a sim to Oz.

The question I'm keen to ask is why did Impulse offer to fly these aircraft for lower rates ($120,000 I believe) compared with Virgin Blue who pay their Captains $150,000+ !!!

Even VB think their pilots are worth more than the K120 Impulse has offered in order to prostitute themselves and pilots in general.
Bet your gonads these guys (apart from a few management pilots) will have to pay for their own endorsement!!

Capt Claret
2nd Dec 2003, 07:28
The version I heard from a friend, who heard it from his Impulse friend, is $150k, not the $120k as touted.

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

ER2nd.
2nd Dec 2003, 10:11
Rich-Fine-Green "....maybe QF/Jetstar and AirNZ can at least 'share' a sim ..."
And why not share Engineering too - fly the Airbus across the dutch for the heavy maint....what a smart move....oh but THEY do that. No spare capacity to do other work whilst that is continueing. How about Geoffs old mate (and business partner at the old Ansett Eng Base) Chris at Patricks? They could use JetCare seeing as they don't do much for DJ these days..

Douglas Mcdonnell
2nd Dec 2003, 11:41
Beer can dreaming. I think you will find that the base rate is about 120K. However, the overtime deal is quite good. Average will be between 150 to 160 K.

Now thats not to bad is it. I have never come across a hooker that earns that much. By the way the average wage in Australia is close to 32k per year.

Who ever said pilots were whingers?

Like the paint scheme!! Cheers DM.

vigi-one
2nd Dec 2003, 12:07
Once again the loyal regional pilots wont get a look in. Good luck IPG as it appears the AIPA supports you as much as much as the regional group.

Icarus2001
2nd Dec 2003, 12:26
Lies, damn lies and pprune posts...

Last Update: Thursday, November 13, 2003. 12:21pm (AEDT)
Average wage growth slows

The average weekly wage in Australia has risen to $929.60 a week.

Seasonally adjusted figures released by the Bureau of Statistics show full-time adults' ordinary time earnings were up just 0.6 per cent in the three months to August.

There was a 2.5 per cent surge in the previous quarter.

The Wage Cost Index issued on Wednesday showed a 1 per cent rise in salaries.

$929.60 x 52 = $48339.20

So Douglas how many hookers have you come across? :O

amos2
2nd Dec 2003, 13:33
I think you got too close to the sun again Ic.

You'll have trouble convincing me that that average wage is 48K. :)

Icarus2001
2nd Dec 2003, 14:30
Yes indeed. In the real world I reckon most people on the bell curve earn between $28,000 and $38,000. That conclusion is reached by talking to a cross section of friends and acquaintances.

The post above was actually from the ABC News website...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s988228.htm

More info here...

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rn/2003-04/04rn09.pdf

contradicted here...

http://new.theage.com.au/articles/2002/02/28/1014704981571.html

and more confusing data here...

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs%40census.nsf/4079a1bbd2a04b80ca256b9d00208f92/7dd97c937216e32fca256bbe008371f0!OpenDocument#Income


At the end of the day a few very well paid people skew the data...but are they happy?
:{

cunninglinguist
2nd Dec 2003, 16:30
150k+ for VB pilots ??, actually ( from the EBA on wagenet ) it's a shade over 130k ( unless you do what most do and times the tax free allowances by 2 ).

If the IMP base is 120k and O/T is 30-40k, that would be around 200hours at $200, sounds suss.

Whatever it is, it's sure to be another nail in the coffin of pilots wages and conditions in Oz, and for the GA pilots thinking " who cares, more jet jobs " don't worry, it will filter all the way down.

longjohn
2nd Dec 2003, 16:55
If it only takes a 3 month endorsement to train the GA guy into a jet guy, and no more skills than that, then what really is the difference?

Better still, when I can take an 18 year old out of school and 12 months later make him /her a Qantas pilot, then what special skills are being used?

Lawyers and Doctors spend at least 5+ years at uni to earn a measly $35k when they start work, yet we airline pilots seem to think that 15months after leaving school or training we are worth $80k PLUS, with no minimum CASA educational standard and only minimum pass marks.

The sooner than pilots accept that the only way to better wages is to accept a skill / experience based pay system, the better off we would be.

Chocks Away
2nd Dec 2003, 18:14
Here here, :ok: Well said ITCZ ! (sorry, his post seems to have gone)

Le Pilot :"We also had a few discussions with the AFAP but to align with them was to give us no say within the QF group." ...certainly, to align yourselves with your cousin Regionals and gain strength in numbers was out of the question!:hmm: ... the fact that most didn't pass the QF Entry Level Testing or failed the Sim rides has nothing to do with it either :hmm: .

BCD:"The question I'm keen to ask is why did Impulse offer to fly these aircraft for lower rates ($120,000 I believe) compared with Virgin Blue who pay their Captains $150,000+ !!!

BCD that is confirmed. $120,000 for the Nopulse Capts and $110,000 for the Direct Entry Capts they admit are req'd due to inexperience levels... oh and the direct entrys' go to the bottom of the list after their 2 year "help out", to let the NoPulse Commands happen. But wait, there's more...:yuk:

Cunninglinguist :"...be another nail in the coffin of pilots wages and conditions in Oz"
You're damn right there, sunshine! This has made me
:mad: ck'n sick to the stomack. Selling themselves, their colleagues and the future of the Industry out, on flying a bigger type. :mad: your mates then (those you have left), for lowering the benchmark so much.

amos2
2nd Dec 2003, 18:53
What planet are you from Longjohn?

virgindriver
2nd Dec 2003, 18:56
With regard to the sim- why wouldn't the 'Pulse guys just go overseas once a year like they do now for sim training when the 'bus happens? Must be the cheapest option....

LetsGoRated
2nd Dec 2003, 19:40
"Selling themselves, their colleagues and the future of the Industry out, on flying a bigger type."

Chocks, what would you have done given their situation?

"Bigger type" What crap, most guys at the pulse would much prefer to fly the 717. Fantastic aircraft to fly and the technology leaves the 320 for dead!!

Jetsbest
2nd Dec 2003, 20:01
Usual tangents creeping in here folks. Back to the topic, and is there any 'Pulser able to answer my original points 1-4?

Douglas Mcdonnell
3rd Dec 2003, 04:47
Chocks, you seem bitter and upset. Miss out in the past did you.

Lets go rated well said.

Chocks Away
3rd Dec 2003, 07:00
LGR: "Negotiate" , seems to be word that comes to mind, with all interested parties at hand, working together to utilize a maximum outcome FOR ALL aviators both for now and the future. A cheaper carpet has just been hastily "laid".

Bitter and upset MD, or miss out out in the past? No on both accounts. I just feel sorry for the aspiring aviators out there, when they have the likes of these at the top of the tree, determining and needlessly further erroding conditions.

It was mentioned in an earlier post/thread... "are they not experienced enough to know their true worth?

Anyway, Keep the blue up.:ok:

VB_Capt
3rd Dec 2003, 07:39
I reckon that pilots will have zero input into what QFs LCC is going to pay. It will be just likeQF or Australian back then, and AN post 89. They offered contracts, and if you wanted one you signed. No negotiation, no input, just sign or don't bother. Plenty signed and there was no shortage just as there will be no shortage for this LCC. Plenty of ex AN A320 pilots walking the streets, or workin OS and wanting to come home at whatever price.
Negotiate is a nice thought, but that's all it is.
Call this negative if you want, but how can pilots have any input? Thee is a job offer at a price, and you won't convince piolots to boycott because there isnt enough money in it. Human nature will take care o f the situation once again. You want to eat? OK, sign here.

Gudija
3rd Dec 2003, 08:33
I must have been in GA too long, I thought $150k was a lot of money.

E.P.
3rd Dec 2003, 13:27
Letsgetrated

"717 leaves A320 for dead"

717 is the first and only jet you have flown, correct?

With that attitude, you will struggle to comprehend what the most advanced technology available. A little apprehensive, perhaps?

Is "McB" earmarked as Chief Pilot? Nice to see him get his A320 endorsement at last!!:sad: :ok:

mppgf
3rd Dec 2003, 16:54
EP
Yes the 717 is the first and only jet I have flown.There are a lot of guy's in the Pulse who have wide ranging experience from the 146 to 747 400 and everything else in between.Every one of them states that the 717 is the most technologically advanced aircraft they have flown.You obviously have no idea about this aircraft.
Just have a look at airliners.net to see the difference in the flightdeck layout.
As far as McB goes, he will probably end up being the number three or four banana in Australia's second or third major airline which is more than most of us pilot's can say.
And if you can comprehend the technology of the 717 I'm sure you can work out the A320.
:ok:

longjohn
3rd Dec 2003, 17:34
I would be so proud if my Flight Dept had a known fraudster in their ranks.

Bargearse
3rd Dec 2003, 18:17
"Bucket Head" McB.

Haven't they got rid of that lowlife yet?

mppgf

Maybe you should research the guys' history a bit before you declare him immortal :)

mppgf
3rd Dec 2003, 19:47
Ep
Stop flying your wire and leave fat Warren alone !:yuk:

Douglas Mcdonnell
4th Dec 2003, 04:34
What ever happened to fat Warren? No doubt he will pull himself through any situation!!

DM

Gnadenburg
4th Dec 2003, 09:57
Don't tell me another person in a position of aviation authority with scorn toward AN?

No wonder they sold themselves short. Protection from the qualified masses.

Well one thing for certain, you won't need HSC to fly Impulse 320's!

:)

mppgf

Your a professional pilot in your own right, qualified to give an opinion but...

Cap10 Caveman
4th Dec 2003, 13:25
You'll have trouble convincing me that that average wage is 48K.

amos2,

I can't remember exact figures but I've heard that something like 85% of the world's wealth is controlled by 6% of the population.

Think about this, about a year ago Bill Gates was worth $243 billion. If the average person was on $530 a week (a figure that is easier to believe than $930, but not correct), then Bill Gates can sacrafice his worth and bring 458,836,858 people up to $930 a week, nearly 10% of the world's population. It's amazing how one person can make so much difference to the average wage, so I think that is how the figure gets so high. If you did a survey on the 90th percentile then I think you would find the figure closer to what most people are making.

Sorry for dribbling crap, it's pretty quiet at work today.

CC

(edited to correct my figures)

Tape It Shut
4th Dec 2003, 15:12
Bill Gates wealth is based on the Microsoft share price. If he wanted to cash up his large holding it would send the share price plummeting. His wealth is huge but not readily converted into cash.

Planned Root
4th Dec 2003, 15:55
Haven't they got rid of that lowlife yet?

Man, what a small industry this is. He is not the only one at that place who well qualifies for that title :yuk:

Seco
5th Dec 2003, 06:38
Sorry guys, but i am still at flying school but I like to read whats going on.

What exactly did McB do wrong?

FluffyBunnyFeet
5th Dec 2003, 11:26
Crikey! mpgf/letsgorated, have a look at yourselves!

Lot's of guys out there lining up to take a shot at 'Pulse, do you have to hand them the ammo? Pull your collective heads in, I for one don't want to be judged by the sort of shite posted earlier.

Do you really want to emulate the likes of Prop & Conrad. P.?