747 Crash @ Lagos

[Dogma]

Africa claims another victim. The crew are all fine, but the aircraft is totalled.

[Intruder]

When? Which airline? No info on CNN.com...

[Classic]

Dogma

Can you be a bit more specific? Not a good subject to be vague about.

[scroggs]

Checked Reuters, BBC Online and Google. Nothing....
WIHIH??

[akerosid]

I got this on Airliners.net:

Hydro Air Cargo B742F ZS-OOS crashed in Nigeria (Lagos) yesterday after apparently being cleared by ATC to land on an unserviceable runway.

The gear apparently struck an object on the runway and was ripped off. This caused the one side to drop resulting in the fuselage rolling over and ripping off either one or both wings.

The condition of the crew is unknown, and all that is confirmed is that the aircraft is written off. All info is still very hazy and nothing will be confirmed until the accident investigators have completed their inspection of the aircraft.

(For additional info, the aircraft was formerly 4X-AXD of EL AL, delivered as a 747-258 Combi).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I suppose the reason it wasn't on CNN etc. was that there were no fatalities?

[M609]

From what i hear, safety at Lagos is at a ridiculous level.
Both airfield and ATC have gotten some ( a lot ) of flack earlier.
Was it only a matter of time?

[4granted]

Can this be moved to the Africa Forum please ..its running there as well.
4g

[hobie]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110516

hobie ..........

[colorblind]

Hydro ! were they flying to BRU ?:8

[**777lover**]

Sounds bad! I hope everyones OK and that there is an in depth investigation! Was it in daylight or darkness. If the runway was not serviceable shouldn't the plane have diverted?

Thanks Dave 14 :yuk:

[Avman]

Yes, Hydro Air were regulars into BRU and OST. Nigeria or not, I don't believe ATC would knowingly clear an a/c to land on an unserviceable runway. I imagine there's a bit more to this than we know at present.

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

Operated out of LOS earlier last week. Just before taxy were informed by another a/c taxying ahead of us that a landing a/c had reported a large pothole on the RHS of R/W 19R. Not a word from ATC. Both ourselves and other a/c decided take off on 19L would be the sensible option. Uneventful departures. Informed inbound Virgin of problem at LOS and presumably no problems there. Last we heard LOS supposed to be repairing R/W. Interesting place to operate in/out of!!!

[battraveller]

Nothing wrong with ATC in lagos. Except they cant speak english to well chalk this one up to the french.

[Jerricho]

Nice one BT. :ok:

That only took a week this time.

[maxalt]

Nigeria or not, I don't believe ATC would knowingly clear an a/c to land on an unserviceable runway.

Ever worked in Africa Avman?
Thought not.

[Avman]

Wow guys, you do have double standards about second-guessing the reason for an aircraft accident before the facts are known. Why are you not speculating that it was a cock-up by a cowboy crew flying for a cowboy operator?

[maxalt]

Double standards? Not at all. What about yourself? I'm simply reacting to your statement that ATC couldn't be at fault, now you go blaming the crew.

Who knows the cause?

What I do know is that I've seen ATC in Lagos create more than one crash...with my very own eyes.

For instance, the Learjet with an engine out making an ILS on 19L. When he was 2 miles out ATC gave a Nigeria Airways B737 clearance to line up!
Which he duly did!!

The Learjet tried to go around, lost it, and pranged into the bush between the runways. Everyone got killed!

Lagos ATC wouldn't land you on a closed runway?
Don't ever bet your life on it.

[Slimbitz]

Saw it with my own eyes at 0941Z 29 Nov on T/O from 19L (19R NOTAMed unavailable 1800-0600L), still gave us 19L for departure, soon saw why. B747 off 19R to east side, fully on the grass between runway and taxyway. Wings still attached, difficult to assess damage, looked likely to be few if any injuries.

19R had been unavailable for our landing at 0445Z 28 Nov, and had been for the previous day's rotation, so we were forewarned (despite lack of NOTAM at that stage). Don't know time of accident. Not a word about it from ATC.
:cool:

[chukky]

It's in the notams as having a very poor runway surface.

[411A]

Shades of many years ago, except at Kano then.
Sinkhole on the runway...B707 found same.

Bad scene all 'round.

Not much changes in Nigeria...except the faces of the 'officials' in charge...:sad:

[Dogma]

Yep, same old story. Its just you brothers at MK still keep it real! Total respect to you guys, the money you earn is not proportionate to the risks involved!
A difficult theatre of operations:ouch:

[RRAAMJET]

411A, don't remember what year that 707 shunt was, but by 1989 nothing had improved at Kano. Sh1t layover, too, even with a diverted Birdseed crew for company (the usual seasonal sandstorms in Lagos).

While we're at it, Lagos, Abuja and Port Harcourt are also less-than-perfect....

National TV was a hoot, though.:E


Hope this crew are okay.

[BUMPFF]

I concur with all your comments re the Nigerian airworks. I've known it on and off since the 1950s.

No mention of a recent B742 event on Harro Ranter's excellent aviation safety web site.

[hobie]

it almost makes you think a call to your local Rep, before landing, with the request "take a run down the strip for us buddie and make sure its OK", might be a good idea !!!!


hobie ....


ps. now on ASN .......

http://aviation-safety.net/database/2003/031129-3.htm

[ou Trek dronkie]

I was reliably informed the crew was specifically cleared to land on that r/w, after they had queried its serviceability. They were well aware of wip but, I say again, they were positively cleared to land. What else must they do ?
Comments on cowboys are totally out of line and betray a vast ignorance of operations in Africa.
Thanks be to God no-one was sufficiently hurt to need admission to hospital in Nigeria.
Landing in Africa by night ? I don’t miss it a bit.

oTd

[MrNosy]

Probally a silly question but what was on the ATIS (what ATIS?), was the localiser operating and were the approach lights for 19R on. What was the wx?

[topman999]

Maxalt, The 732 was probably cleared to line up and take off as it would have otherwise acted as an obstacle (potential) to the incoming learjet. It was probably close to the runway on the taxiway and ATC saw it more fit to clear it away before the learjet touched.
BTW, the 742 is a hard one to touch and hold level on finals in non standard conditions. Can often depend on the gyration swing and all else.
Rgds.

[Dogma]

Topman..... What utter S:mad:hite.

There is no justifying the total inadequacies of the Nigerians.

I can guarantee that there was no thought applied to the reasoning behind departing that aircraft ahead of the Lear.

Good point! (Damn beers!)

[topman999]

Dogma, With all due respect your sentence dtructure does not even make sense. :(

[M609]

During my basic ATCO training, I once worked as "blipdriver" in radar simulator for a bunch of licenced ATCO's from Ghana on "radar-refresher" training. Class D airspace if I remember correctly.

They routinely cleared outbound traffic to the same or higher level as inbound traffic, both routing over the SAME VOR! Needless to say it got really close.....all the time. Their explenation to the Santaclaus-looking (HUGE white beard :D) swedish instructor was: "Allways clear Sky, they can see eachother" Cue non PC yelling bye Santa in the SIM room. :E

[topman999]

I am interested to see who was PIC and what the CVR and FDR have to say. For one has flown into Lagos a GA was not uncommon due to the occasions when local wild animals got inside the airport perimeter, and if my memory serves me correct an L1011 burst a tyre on takeoff there b4, and many other rumours I have heard. Having parked a 742 there myself, I may say that the runway surfacing is(at least was) amongst the poorest in the world. What I would deem as serious "holes" in the surface. Generally the further down the 3900M runway you get the better the surface becomes though.

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

Why are there not any photos of this incident yet?
Its been nearly a week and yet nothing in the media.
Anybody have a link to photos to verify the damage??

[freightboss]

Here is some info on the Hydro crash.

Sorry guys, no cowboy crew on this one and not a cowboy operator either...

Hydro WAS cleared to land on 19R - three times. Each time the crew requested confirmation, as they actually had the NOTAM and yes, they actually read it.

A/C landed and ran through some trenches dug across the rwy, damaging the nose gear and LH wing gear. Lost hydraulics and departed the rwy to the left, digging in the LH gear and dragging the LH engines into he ground.

At this stage there is no confirmation of whether the a/c will be recovered, as there is no confirmation of the cost to recover and repair. Just looking at all the old wrecks standing around, it would probably be cheaper (definitely easier) to take the insurance than to repair and recover.

All on board are alive and well, although a bit shaken.

Nigerian officials have prohibited any photographers from taking photos, make sense doesn't it. Apparently the ATC is missing and will probably never be found again.

Oh, by the way the language in Nigeria and Ghana is some form of English (Nigerish in Nigeria and Ghanish in Ghana). Takes some time getting used to.

[A7700]

Is there anyone who can post or give an URL where to find the original text of the notam send to advertise the works in progress on 19R ?
tks

[DVR4G.DEP]

posted 2nd December 2003 12:43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whats ATC standard in Nairobi? Is Jomo Kenyatta Airport well maintained such as:

Is there no Pot Holes on the taxiways?

Is the night lighting good at night?

Do you get sand blowing from Sudan which causes reduced vis?

Also do you get torrential rain on final in NBO?

Does anyobody know any threads they could kindly point me to to see Crash incidences in NBO.

Cheers

[maxalt]

topman999, are you for real? Please explain how an aircraft holding at the holding point is an 'obstacle'? Because if you are right then just about every airport in the world has its approaches dangerously obstructed by obstacles on a daily basis.

I don't believe you've ever 'parked' a B742 anywhere near Lagos, except maybe in a Flight Sim or in your dreams.
If you had you'd know better.

I referred to just one incident...I said I'd seen many. Like the day the ATC radios failed for ten minutes. When they came back on air they'd completely lost the procedural picture (no radar ever worked there so nothing to fall back on). Instead of doing something logical, like directing aircraft into the hold and sorting them out there, the madman on the mike just issued everyone with whatever climb or descent clearance they requested.
We had two very near misses within 3 minutes of each other!

Nigeria is the pits and Lagos is the arse8ole of the aviation world. Don't try making pathetic excuses for them. I just thank Christ I got out alive.

[topman999]

Maxalt,
According to you ever aircraft landing in the skies today is on an emergency landing than ! My post read that it is probably not ideal to have an aircraft waiting on the side taxiway next to the runway where that learjet was landing. It was a good choice to clear the departing traffic....and yes I have flown into Lagos b4.On more than one occasion actually.

[maxalt]

ever aircraft landing in the skies today

Eh?
This is a wind up.

Having castigated Dogma for his grammer you now post this gobbledygook?

Are you a Nigerian? Are you a Nigerian ATC'er perhaps?

It would explain everything.
:p

P.S. "It was a good choice to clear the departing traffic.."
Oh Yeah? Not if you were in the Lear I guess.:mad:

[topman999]

Maxalt - Why must you be so rude ? Perhaps you would have preferred if the 732 was cleared to line up and just hold on the runway. Iff the learjet was 2 miles out than there was no danger at all (hello !). Its common practice to get departing traffic while aircraft on 1 mile final. At 2 miles out the learjet was enough out to let the 732 leave. Safer all round and a good choice in my book.

[alexb757]

Interesting points all around folks.
Just for the record, I have never flown into LOS - nor would I particularly relish the prospect. Just too many "bad luck" stories. Ever heard the phrase there's no smoke without any fire? Also, isn't this the airport (LOS) that has notices posted at virtually every international airport around the world warning passengers that it's security is not up to par? I wonder why such a notice needs to be posted for the general public. And I wonder if they know about the conditions of the runeays/taxiways/ATC etc.
Sounds like a heap of trouble.

Keep safe and don't believe what they tell you....

[Basil]

<<BTW, the 742 is a hard one to touch and hold level on finals in non standard conditions. Can often depend on the gyration swing and all else.>> :confused: :confused:

Never a good idea to line up departing traffic with an emergency on finals.

[M.Mouse]

Iff the learjet was 2 miles out than there was no danger at all (hello !). Its common practice to get departing traffic while aircraft on 1 mile final.

So with the Lear at say 120 kts at 2 nm you clear a 737 to line up and take off. The 737 has exactly 60 secs to do so.

Impossible.

[Dogma]

Topman, you have been standing in the sun without a hat for too many years.

Could you not actually understand what I had written?

Cease to pontificate B. S!

Please can anyone provide more accurate information on this disastrous Nigerian situation.

[Flight Detent]

alexb757 - You're quite right about security at Lagos, my experences include:
a/ arriving at the gate, one time, about 2 hours after the advertised departure time, due to a delay caused by aircraft serviceability, for an 11 hour flight. We found the entire load of passengers had boarded themselves, and were settled down aboard, with the kids running everywhere, waiting and shouting out to us that we should go now!
We had to offload the entire passenger cabin, do a really good security check, get the cabin reorganized, and reboard, which meant an extra delay on the delay!
b/ each and every bus trip to and from the airport to the hotel, about 20 minutes each way, had to be escorted by armed guards.They had loaded automatic weapons in each car, one in front and one behind, and would not stop for any traffic holdups.
Anytime there was a traffic blockage on the 'road' the front car would simply drive up between the lanes and bang on the side of the cars blocking the road, with the butts of the weapons - that usually got them moving out of the way! Not a pleasant way to travel to/from work.

I was there with AAI for several months, the best part was the layovers in NewYork, London and Dubai, otherwise I could not have lasted even that long.

Cheers:yuk:

[Volume]

And this is, how it looks like now :
http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/zs-oos/1.jpg

Hm, the line is ´IMG]http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/zs-oos/1.jpg[/IMG´, don´t know why it shows an Jetphoto.net banner ? The Preview worked well yesterday. Sorry

[Tony_EM]

Errr, looks like a 757 and some shameless advertising to me :E

[Dogma]

Tony em, I want some of what you are smoking!

That is no 757, Volume more info please!:ok:

What the hell, it just changed to an advert for some photo data base!

[BRISTOLRE]

That photodata base has no crash pics only various shots of the a/c in new livery at places like BRU & OST.

[GlueBall]

AirDisaster (http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/zs-oos/photo.shtml)

[hobie]

GB .... you beat me to posting that link by one (1) minute !!!! ... lol

what a sad end for an "Old lady of the Sky" ......

hobie .....

[Tony_EM]

Tony em, I want some of what you are smoking!

Lemsip! Its a bu@@er to roll and almost impossible to light.

I guessed that was an attempt to link to that photo on AirDisaster.com and saw it this morning. Both wings look attached to me, well, at least at the roots.

Edit; can't believe that word was censored

[Shore Guy]

Nigerian airport botch-up costs SA cargo carrier millions

Aviation - By Roger Makings

Incompetence at a Nigerian airport will cost a South African cargo carrier millions of dollars in lost business over the peak Christmas season.

Pretoria-based Hydro Air Cargo's only Boeing 747 was wrecked last week at a Lagos Airport when it ran into a shallow trench on a runway that was being repaired.

Captain Vere Webb, Hydro Air's chief of flight operations, said this week that the Boeing had been cleared to land at Lagos's Murtala Muhammed Airport in the early hours of last Saturday morning.

The Hydro Air pilot twice told the air traffic controller that according to his notes the runway onto which he had been directed to land was under reconstruction. The controller denied this.


The runway appeared to be functioning normally. Its lights were on, navigation aids were working and there were no markings to indicate that it was unserviceable. However, shortly after touchdown the jumbo ran at high speed onto the unsurfaced section of runway, ripping out the left side
undercarriage and severely damaging a wing and two engines of the multimillion-dollar jet.


Reports said the air traffic controller ran away, but was arrested the next morning.

"That, of course, does not solve our problem," said Webb this week. "The jumbo was our only aircraft and we are in the middle of the peak season."

He said it was not clear if assessors would write off the 747 or deem it worth fixing. "Whichever way they go, it's going to take a couple of months, so we are trying frantically to source aircraft to meet our commitments to customers."

Hydro Air Cargo's chief executive, Frik Knoetze, said this week the accident was a severe blow to the company.
"We are looking to lease aircraft and crews that are going to cost far more than what it costs to run our own jumbo. "But, more importantly, we need to protect our markets. Other carriers will
be happy to take our business away from us."

Knoetze said Hydro, with a turnover of more than $30-million a year, flew almost a million kilograms of mainly perishables and dry goods to Europe from South Africa every month. Out of Europe it transported 1.1-million kilograms of freight to Nigeria, Spain and South Africa.

"We are operating in a highly competitive market, and in peak season aircraft and crews are not easy to come by. We are the only South African-based cargo carrier competing in Europe and you can bet the opposition are more than ready to move in on our markets. This will have a major effect on our business."

[hobie]

with "ATC and Crew" conversation recordings being available I presume financial responsibility can be quickly established, allowing a replacement aircraft to be sourced at no cost penalty to the company??? but just how easy would it be to get a replacement Aircraft? .......

[Little One]

With ref to departing taffic infront of emerg traffic Although it was probably done cause the RWY would have been blocked by the Lear and the ATC didn't want to hassle with taking the B737 on a taxi tour but still this is something I would not have done personally. ACFT on final with emerg don't want to cause more trouble to them

There was a picture in the Buisiness section of the SA Sunday Times Yesterday.

pic

http://www.suntimes.co.za/2003/12/07/business/news/1-bt07air.jpg

[halo]

As someone who works at a busy twin runway airfield somewhere to the west of London, I would like to point out that lining a 732 up with an aircraft at 2 miles on an engine out is quite definitely career suicide!! :rolleyes:

I don't think any of us that value our jobs and other peoples lives would do something so stupid..... even with both aircraft operating normally. I refer you to the BMA Airbus and the BA 744 a few years ago if you want evidence of how tight 2 miles is!!

[topman999]

"I don't think any of us that value our jobs and other peoples lives would do something so stupid..... even with both aircraft operating normally"

Am I the only one who regularly sees and indeed is granted permission to line up and expect immediate rolling departure with aircraft on 1 or 2 miles final ?? This is a very common practice folks.

[AfricanSkies]

topman do they do that on the moon, where you're from?

kano, abuja, PH, yola etc will make you wait if they've got a *turbine* aircraft on am 8 mile final, they're that sharp:E

lagos is different, they will only hand you over to tower when you are established on the glide and often you can't get a word in on the frequency because the tower freq is also the ground and the delivery freq, too. so you can get right down to 2 miles in IMC and only then manage to make contact with a tower controller who has just lined something up in front of you....this after doing the dance with all the other arriving and departing aircraft in and thru the hold at LAG.

and the most important thing then?

"report souls on board":suspect:

but its not normal procedure to knowingly line up something with something else at 1 mile... :ugh: 30 seconds out?

[320DRIVER]

Saw the hectic line up a few weeks ago at MAN ... clearance given to a 74 to line up with a 73 on about 2 miles final with a previously landing turboprop still to vacate.

I was lucky to bet on the go-around (which was inevitable really)...

[Dogma]

Topman, you are good value.

You have raised your head above the parapet again only to have it shot off.

Where is this place that you speak of:confused: The moon and beyond.... sounds interesting.

[topman999]

Thanks Dogma ! I aim to please. Where/what/who is "man" ? Manchester ??? Who knows. Anyway, the funny thing is I probably have 10 times the experience you have. Keep taking the tablets :ok:

[Dogma]

Oh dear struck a nerve there!:ouch: :ugh:

Anyway... any one got the latest on the Hydro / Nigerian situation?

[maxalt]

Just to clarify your position then Topman.

You are saying that the action by ATC Lagos in giving permission for an aircraft to line up, when a crippled aircraft was on short finals, was completely OK.
And therefore the subsequent go around on one engine that the Learjet was forced to execute, which resulted in a loss of control and the destruction of the aircraft, and the loss of all lives on board, was entirely normal and represented good industry practice.

Correct?

[topman999]

For the last time,

It is not ideal to line up any aircraft while another aircraft is on 2 mile finals, but the alternative in lagos was to have a 732 holding short of the runway and a potential obstacle to the learjet on finals. Remember folks, the learjet was on an emergancy approach and infact ended up losing control in the end. Thus it could so easily have slammed into the 732. Only chance prevented this. ATC cleared the 732 for take off to facilitate the learjet on finals. The learjet lost control according to this article, which further proves that ATC was correct to clear the 732 away. Would you like to be told to hold short of the runway knowing that the aircraft approaching you is going to crash ? Wake up :rolleyes:

[maxalt]

Actually I've got a better solution.

Why didn't they just tell the Learjet to ****** off and crash someplace else?
Perhaps a local scrapyard could have used the bits.

Would've saved a lot of messing about, wouldn't it.

[BEagle]

I cannot believe the total and utter crap posted by so-called topman999.

If you were completing a OEI approach in a twin jet ac at 600 ft on final, what possible excuse could you imagine for some dumb idiot moving onto the RW and blocking it - even if a highly dubious air trafficker cleared the movement.....

A late-notice go-around at a critical phase of an emergency is an extremely tricky manoeuvre. I'm not surprised that the Lear had an accident as a result.

Any pilot who thinks that lining up in front of an aeroplane carrying out an emergency approach is in any way acceptable simply doesn't deserve to hold a pilot'slicence of any sort.

Please NOTAM any flights in which you may be involved, topman999, so that the rest of the civilised world can arrange to be elsewhere at the time.

[Dogma]

"for the last time"

Lets bl@@dy hope so!

When you have a concept (experience) of heavy metal operations give us a call.

[canadair]

999
have to agree with the rest mate, you are a twit!
you dont suppose that the LJ crash was the result of... GA power on 1 engine!! and the subsequent loss of control, due assymmetry??
Hold short is just that, hold short, an aircraft is not a factor there,
perhaps you can tell me just how many aircraft on engine out approaches, have missed the runway altogether, and wandered through the hold line??

"further proves that ATC was correct to clear the 732 away. Would you like to be told to hold short of the runway knowing that the aircraft approaching you is going to crash ?"

that is an unbelievable statement!!! and just how did you know it was going to crash?? oh yeah, cause you were going to try and make it by shoving off directly in front of it!!
I think I, along with everyone else who has read the complete crap you have written, do not for a minute believe you have ever been in control of any aircraft, let alone a transport cat a/c.
You do however, seem perfectly qualified to be a controller at Lagos!
I have flown into Lagos many many times, it is without a doubt the worst controlling I have ever seen, Hyrdo is just their latest victim.
so please do me a favor, 999, shut up!

[uffington sb]

In my 29 years in military ATC, any aircraft in emergency was given absolute priority. The rwy was 'sterilized' well before the emergency aircraft was on finals, and other traffic was told to b*gger off until everything was sorted. To line up an aircraft with an emergency at 2 miles beggers belief.

topman!!!!!!!!!!!

[maxalt]

Actually folks, just to clarify this further, the Lear had his engine failure about 90NMS OUTBOUND from Lagos on DEPARTURE, so the controllers had probably (at least) 30mins from his turnback to prepare for an emergency landing.

Carry on as usual though, eh.

SNAFU.

[Flybob]

Where's 411A when you need him. He would sort this mess out quick smart!

Anyhoo... Ref Hobies comment on a previous page where he refers to financial compensation.......no financial loss to airline.....!
I am sorry matey, but there are two Hope's of Hydro getting a cent from The Nigerian authority, and Bob aint here!
They dont pay for standard airline operations as has been the near or actual demise of several airlines to get sucked into working in Africa.
Even the big boys have been bitten, with carriers like BA and VA getting cash up front in US dollars for any "guaranteed business"!
Not wishing to be the harbinger etc, but I would have to say that that might be the last we see of Hydro for a while.

One last word. Just hope all the crew are well and good and at home! I know a few of them. For the most part total professionals ! I wish them all the best over this (if not so) Merry season.

[Paladini]

Glad to hear that all aboard are safe at home now...

Wonder if Paul T. can wangle this one into an insurance claim as a "mugging"?

[loaded1]

I have the dubious pleasure of operating into LOS very soon, and having never been there before I would be most grateful for a succinct summary of the pitfalls that await.

I get the general idea from postings in this thread, but any and all specifics will be gratefully received.

[Idunno]

Make sure you arrive with LOTS of FUEL!

They have the charming habit of closing an airport without notice for a full hour around the time of a 'VIP' departure. This VIP could anything from el presidente down to some rural chief, or his wife.

Besides that the approach aids (such as they are) go off with regularity, as do the lights!

Be prepared for the worst...as Ernie Gann said...'Always have an out in your back pocket'.

[topman999]

Just back on a sector through Japan. Well, what can I say ! Differing opinions out there in aviation I guess. One can only devise their own conclusions on this. Convenient though how Maxalt changes the particulars of the situation after the debate.:rolleyes:

[billovitch]

The name Walter Mitty springs to mind... This week I am an experienced controller - next week on a "sector" through Japan...

He ain't going to go away folks - ignore.

[Paterbrat]

The persistance in sticking to a dodgy statement/opinion/judgement would seem to indicate the hide of a Rhino, the common sense of a four year old, and the testicals of a bull elephant, unfortunately this combination is generaly considered dangerous in a cockpit or a control tower.
Sorry 999 the opinion you have valiently stuck to does not seem to be the one chosen by the majority here. Perhaps you are in the Nigerian ATC, in which case be advised that it was not thought to be a wise decision and probably only succeeded in excacerbating an already dangerous situation. It piled extra pressure on an already loaded pilot, at a time when he least needed it, and may well have contributed to his death and that of those on board. In short a right pigs ear.

[seacue]

Or is 999 an industrious TROLL (http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm)??? Positioning a bit outside "reasonableness", yet near enough as to not be instantly recognized as a troll.... T'would be an odd sense of humour since we're talking of life-or-death situations.

[NoseGear]

topman, you are a :mad: wit. I have been reading your ignorant tripe here and had to reply. Any sane (real) pilot would know not to line up in front of an inbound OEI emergency, especially one at 2 miles and 600 feet. The subsequent asymetric go around no doubt contributed heavily, if not completely, to the accident.

The aircraft holding short posed no obstacle whatsoever to the Lear, thats why they paint those yellow lines, they're called Holdpoints, to keep holding aircraft safely clear of the runway enviroment. Look for them when next you park your 742 on flightsim on a sector thru Japan.

Can you also, being 10 times more experienced than any of us, please explain "non standard conditions"? And what the hell is meant by your statement " the 742 hard to touch and hold level in non standard conditions. Can often depend on the gyration swing and all else"..........:hmm:

Methinks you have overstepped your very limited aviation knowledge, so time to back off, people died because of an extremely poor decision on the part of ATC and you, obviously not a pilot, are trying to defend them with experience(?) gained on flightsim and by standing in the carpark at Manchester trying to guess the separation between arriving/departing flights, probably all done in a pilots uniform to boot.:rolleyes: :suspect:

Nosey

[Mariner9]

From todays LLoyds List...

A Hydro Air B747 freighter was cleared for a night time landing at Lagos, on a runway that had been closed for resurfacing work.

At aircraft touchdown, the landing gear was ripped off after lodging in construction holes. The jet then collided with heavy equipment and machinery, only for one wing to torn off.

All the crew escaped unhurt but the plane, Hydro’s only B747, was a write-off.

[Basil]

<<only for one wing to torn off>>
It wasn't.
Port wing gear off, port inbd T/E flaps severely damaged, #1 eng didn't look too clever.

[no reds]

Very simple really,
airborn at night you have to have fuel to get to the ex French protectorates or you don`t go there.
You do not rely on anything. I have bribed atc there from FL250 in the hold but that info is on a need to know basis only.
Gave a brief on radio to a Swissair A340 pilot who couldn`t compute the procedural approach one day - had to he was in front.
Nobody has mentioned the downwards dip in the only ILS - at 500ft - that has rattled some experienced crew in the go-around whilst visual . . not to mention the pax.
Anyone out there remembers the poor sod in the bamboo cage west side of NAF base ?
Not a figment of any imagination,
Be good now girls
:E

Sorry ladies
forgot to mention, the Lagos VOR isn`t exactly where it`s supposed to be. Who`d have thought it
:suspect:

[topman999]

No Reds,
What on earth are you talking about ??

[NoseGear]

Ahhh, topman, your back, how nice.........maybe now you could answer my question from above? I really am waiting with baited breath you know:p :p

[Ignition Override]

What a mess.:hmm:

[AerocatS2A]

Topman, I think you may need a refresher course in reading comprehension.


Remember folks, the learjet was on an emergancy approach and infact ended up losing control in the end.

It only lost control after it did a single engine missed approach. It did the missed approach because the other aircraft had been cleared to line-up.


Thus it could so easily have slammed into the 732. Only chance prevented this.

No. If the 73 had been holding, the Lear would have completed it's SE approach and landed without incident. Remember, the Lear crashed during the missed approach. It conducted the missed approach because another aircraft was on the runway.


ATC cleared the 732 for take off to facilitate the learjet on finals. The learjet lost control according to this article, which further proves that ATC was correct to clear the 732 away. Would you like to be told to hold short of the runway knowing that the aircraft approaching you is going to crash ? Wake up

Would you like to be told to line up, knowing that this would cause an accident. The ATC was not correct lining a 73 up ahead of an emergency landing. The proof is in the consequences.

You reckon it was the right thing to do. A smoking crumple of metal would seem to indicate otherwise.

[topman999]

AerocatS2A,

I am only going on what was meantioned in the thread. If people cant be bothered to mention the exact details of the crash and rather edit their own version than thats their business, but on the description given on this site of what happend, logic kicks in, and logic states that its not safe to have an aircraft waiting by the side of a runway with god knows how many hundreds of passengers on it while a learjet is approaching with only 1 engine. Was the learjet not told about the departing 737 ? Could the learjet pilots not see this ?? Again such vague material on this site and suddenly all get a surprise when one draws logical conclusions ON THE INFORMATION GIVEN. I didnt start this thread about the 737 and learjet accident. Maybe the person who did would have the basic respect to disclose the proper details and respect that people actually died in this crash rather than giving a vague half ass description purposly designed to spark ill comment.

[Viggen]

Oh for crying out loud Topman ... I've tried to stay out of this one, but you're making my blood boil with the stupidity of your comments. I don't pretend to be an airline pilot or ATCO, I am a lowly PPL holder with just 75 hours. But even I can understand the basic fact that a Learjet with one engine out can make a perfectly safe landing without endangering another aircraft at the hold. What do you mean "was the Learjet not told about the 737" ??? What could the Learjet pilot DO about it, if it had already been cleared onto the runway? The only answer is "go around" and it is whilst trying to do that with only one engine that aircraft and crew came to grief.

If you're posting with the sole reason of winding people up, I think you've achieved your objective, so why not leave it there and retire?

[topman999]

"But even I can understand the basic fact that a Learjet with one engine out can make a perfectly safe landing without endangering another aircraft at the hold"

This being the case why did it go around ???

"What could the Learjet pilot DO about it, if it had already been cleared onto the runway? "

Eh... wait for it to clear the runway ??? :rolleyes:

[AerocatS2A]

This being the case why did it go around ???


Because a 737 was on the runway.


"What could the Learjet pilot DO about it, if it had already been cleared onto the runway? "

Eh... wait for it to clear the runway ???

How exactly? Hover? Conduct an orbit on one engine on finals? :rolleyes: yourself.

[NoseGear]

Topman, you are now contradicting yourself!!!
I had an engine failure once in a light twin and returned to the international airport where I had taken off from. I had no pax on board at the time and the engine was shut down, so there were no problems with control etc. When I landed, about 5 to 10 minutes after declaring my problem to the tower, I found out that all aircraft movement was stopped immediately and aircraft were not even allowed to start, let alone line up and take off in front of me, do you not think that courtesy should have been extended to the Lear crew? You are a bloody idiot, just read your own posts to see that.

Now go back to Flightsim and line up in front of whoever you like, and by the way, I am still waiting on an answer for my question from above???:mad:

[obiukwu]

Could someone please point me to some references about the Learjet crash. I've searched, but can't seem to find anything.
When did this happen, and how come there's been no official mention of it?

[MayorQuimby]

Guys guys guys,

Everyone here (including this low hours private pilot) can clearly see that topman999 is a pilot in his mind only. He is well and truly rumbled. I suggest you just ignore him, as responding to him only encourages his delusions.

MQ.

[topman999]

AerocatS2A,

So you have never seen an aircraft on 2 miles final while another aircraft is departing ?
And I am called a ficticious pilot :rolleyes: Frankly with my credentials you guys should be graced by my presence, but so many amatuers here to many of you just dont understand. All ahead of you I guess.

[feet dry]

topman999…this is sick.

I very rarely post as I prefer to read and learn; your perseverance to maintain the rightness of your belief in this matter is becoming somewhat distasteful.

The thread originally began with the 747 crash at Lagos after an appalling error by ATC, thankfully not a soul was lost though a great deal of money probably will be.

The discussion then turned to the 737/Lear incident which I have followed with interest; it has been your ramblings which have finally led me to contribute and the fact that lives were lost following an entirely avoidable set of circumstances.

You asked aerocatS2A:

“AerocatS2A,

So you have never seen an aircraft on 2 miles final while another aircraft is departing ?”

The answer he well probably give is that yes he may well have seen an aircraft on 2 miles final while another is departing. The difference will be however is that the arriving aircraft will, in all likelihood, not have a crew trying to contend with a single engine approach (and possibly other system failures). According to various sources, the ATC had 30minutes notification of the Lear emergency. That is 30minutes in which to plan and activate a suitable response. The 737 should never, not ever, have been given permission to line up or depart; not in front of an aircraft trying to operate beyond it’s normal flight envelope. It was the single engine go around which the Lear crew attempted which caused the loss of control, which was directly attributable to the 737 being allowed to enter the active runway for departure.

Now (if you are a pilot) please, for the sake of the crew who lost their lives stop defending the woeful error of judgement on the part of the ATC.

If you are not a pilot and are merely trying to stir, then you are one sick puppy my friend.

[Bob Upndown]

Topman,

If your knowledge of aviation extends as far as your knowledge of the English language (spelling AND grammar), then you may be forgiven for your fatuous and ignorant stance. Best bail out now.

Bob

PS - Before you go, please just let us know what '744' operator you work for so we can all ensure we'll never to be near one of their a/c, whether on the ground or in the air just in case you're driving. (Or does that '744' have 'Intel Inside' on the tail????:rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

Add to 'ignore list' methinks................

[SLFguy]

Guys Guys Guys!!!!

Had an a/c cleared for departure with another on ONLY 1.5 mile final just last night.... mind you I was on the same Nintendo game as Topman must have got his hours. :p

[maxalt]

Date: 22 JUL 1983
Type: Learjet 25D
Operator: Imani & Sons
Registration: 5N-ASQ
Msn / C/n: 25D-344
Year built:
Crew: 0 fatalities / on board
Passengers: 0 fatalities / on board
Total: 0 fatalities / 3 on board
Airplane damage: Written off
Location: Lagos (Nigeria)
Phase:
Nature:
Departure airport:
Destination airport:
Remarks:
Crashed on landing.


http://aviation-safety.net/database/1983/830722-0.htm

Not much detail given, but it proves I didn't just make it up.
Nobody killed it says there, but that's not my understanding.

Doesn't change the point anyway.

Lagos ATC = Disaster.

[MrNosy]

The details of the Lear Jet (5N-ASQ) crash as published on Airclaims CASE database are as follows;-

!While en-route from Lagos to Ibadan and in normal cruising flight at FL110, a 'loud rumbling noise' began to come from the right engine and it lost power. The thrust lever for the right engine was retarded and then moved forwards again slowly but the noise then returned together with vibration. The crew shut down the right engine and elected to return to Lagos. The flight back to Lagos was apparently normal until the aircraft was descending through about 1,000ft on final approach to Runway 19L when the left engine reportedly began to surge between idle and maximum power. With no power from the right engine and the left engine surging, the crew found maintaining control of the aircraft very difficult and were unable to keep it lined up on the runway. The aircraft touched down hard, on a heading of 220deg., on a taxiway beside the runway. The aircraft then ran forward, across the compass swing area, down a slope, across a road and eventually came to rest in a rough maize field. The aircraft caught fire and was destroyed. !

If this is correct, looks like they had enough troubles themselves!

[FlyOff]

I had a simmilar experience of ATC maddness, IMC cleared for the ILS approach into Libreville (correctly named FOOL), 732 Cleared behind me for same approach, problem - I was in a 182 on the way to the USA.

[maxalt]

I'd agree with everything written there except the final reason for loss of control. I saw this accident with my own eyes.
Who did the investigation and wrote the report?

Nigerians perchance?

[HercBird]

Now back to FlightSim

Hey, this might seem arrogant, but I am just an avid flightsimmer and a "virtual controller" in the worlds of VATSIM (http://www.vatsim.net) and I still know NOT to line up anyone when I have a jet on approach on that runway with less than a 4 mile run...

I am not going to even mention Emergencies and keeping runways sterile....

As for topman's reasoning "Get the 737 out of the way from the holding point", in my opinion, with the advance notice, the 737 should never have been allowed to taxi even to the holding point...

Yeah, I might be a bit overcautious, but in my book, that is the only way to be with an aircraft emergency in the air.. Everyone on the ground can wait....

Topman, you say you see aircraft departing when others are at 2 miles final all the time... Departing as in being instructed to line-up, or departing as in rolling with aircraft on 2 miles (even then...) ??? Might be the ignorant here, but there is a substancial difference between the two...

Anyways, glad to hear the 747 crew made it out alright, hope Airdisaster is right and the Lear ones did too (although if I was the one to make it out of that Lear I would have a "serious conversation" with the ATCO that cleared the 732)...

Just a flightsimmer's point of view (sadly)...

[Ignition Override]

Wow! How much less can we all learn from this incident in Lagos because some amateur (no name mentioned, out of diplomacy) knows so little about an emergency aircraft's total priority regarding any, and maybe all runways?

This might have been already stated on a previous page, but Ignorance+Arrogance=Danger. A cockpit or (pc) FlightSim "Maginot Line"?:=

[NoseGear]

Allright Topman, why don't you give us an idea of your superior credentials? Not that I am holding my breath, you don't seem to be in the habit of answering questions. I am still waiting on an answer for the "747 hard to touch and hold level in non standard conditions, it all depends on the gyration swing and all else" comment. Its amusing to see you, a self-proclaimed expert with such superior qualifications being out thought by people who call themselves amatures. They and the flightsim folks have a far better grasp on real operational issues than you, and quite frankly come across as more professional than you could ever hope to be. I would rather fly with them than you anyday. If this topic did not involve the tragic deaths of 3 people, your sad views would probably not be as disgusting as they are to me.

Now, answer the questions, or :mad: off.

[fcom]

I saw the a/c and it doesm't look well.The right gear assemble is missing with various pieces missing from the wing but still stands up straight without any support.Despite this I still think the Nigerians are some of the best air traffickers in the business second only to the Greeks.

[4granted]

I dont know if its been posted but here it is again....
http://aviation-safety.net/pubs/BCG-Lagos.pdf

[ayrprox]

4G:ok:
thanx for the photo update, you dont always see the clean up and recovery of accidents (thos that leave enough to recover that is). Its obvious all involved put in sh@tloads of work to get the 747 back where it should have been in the first place, on a SERVICABLE runway!. With regards to topman or topshop or whatever the hell he calls himself, yes aircraft are regularly launched with small gaps but usually everybody is kept in the loop eg the pilot departing knows of the lander (so he can expedite) and vice versa
BUT the proviso to this is that they will BOTH BE OPERATING NORMALLY . In the case here the learjet crew were perfectly in the right not to expect an aircraft to be cleared to depart in front when they are only a couple of miles out ( to do so here in the UK would be both career suicide and morally wrong). Think about it you have been flying your lear on one engine for 90 miles or so (according to report) and are approaching the most difficult phase of the flight when the only engine you have left starts playing up, Now you with your immense experience should be able to work out that these pilots were both up Sh1t creek without a boat let alone a paddle! and then just to make their day a commercial (passenger carrying?) plane is lined up in front. What do you do? In the unenviable situation that this crew were put in, the results were tragic, and a sad inditement on the controller involved, god help him coz from what i've seen on tv justice in Lagos can be swift and brutal:(

[exexpat]

"Nigeria or not, I don't believe ATC would knowingly clear an a/c to land on an unserviceable runway." itain'tnecessarilyso!!

Flew for five years out of Lagos Avman, ATC is still in the stone age, it's a two-week course for them just to learn to key the mike at the right time. Worst incident for me was, in conditions of low vis, cleared into position for T/O in a Dakota (DC-3) and looked up to see a UTA four-holer doing a low overshoot/goaround. They had simultaneously cleared us to take off and him to land, perhaps to save time?? Pretty clever!! The UTA Capt. filed papers with everyone in authority he could think of, I blessed the man and shut up--I lived there!! Had visions of what a DC-3 might look like after its bigger DC-8 sibling did a full body press on it. Also flew with indigenous co-pilot trainees (There are 17 states in the country and 21 major local dialects). Unless the copilot and atc controller were from the same area, they could not always understand one another--both speaking English!! WeatherWISE, three months of the year, during the low-vis dusty conditions of the annual hamutan, a pilot who regularly uses Nigerian airports had better be big on situational awareness and have a strong survival instinct. You guys know the National Motto there?? "If you can't beat 'em, eat 'em!!"

[Fangio]

I can recall some years ago that there was a flight bag sticker which said "Happiness is V1 at Lagos"