IFR clearance into airspace??

[Keygrip]

Badly titled thread - but flew a few weeks ago, on an IFR flight plan that moved from Class G into Class B in the USA (Sanford, Orlando - to be precise).

"Instructor" says to me, "Do a 360 turn now, please - we are too close to the Class B".

Having been told that an IFR flight is automatically cleared into Class B, I wondered why, but turned as told - and then got an almighty b******ing from ATC for doing a 360 turn, under IFR, without an instruction or clearance. Made sense - to me.

Was flying today, in the pattern of a Class D airport - when some little guy chirps on the radio that he was two miles out. ATC went ballistic and advised that he may be reported for "possible pilot deviation" for entering (four mile radius) class D airspace without a clearance.

When pilot came back with "But we are IFR and have only just been released from *** center", ATC man says it is pilot responsibility to get clearance before entering airspace.

It would be handy if there was a common rule here. Any constructive comments from any part of the ATC world to help the confused aircrew??

[Thrifty van Rental]

Two different scenarios here.

In the US:

You do not require a clearance to enter class D airspace (IFR or VFR), but you do need to have established 2-way contact, which means persuading the ATCO to read back your callsign.

You must have a clearance to enter class B. This might be obtained prior to departure as part of your IFR clearance. Failing this, one must be obtained from the controller prior to entering the zone.

TvR

[Scott Voigt]

TvR; and Keygrip.

Well not really correct <G>... As to the making a 360 while IFR, that was indeed bad form <G>. Your instructor could have been violated for it since I am assuming you do not have an IFR ticket and are using his... Lots of instructors seem to forget that when they are in the actual IFR system, they are no longer able to do what ever they want for training... You have an IFR contract and have to do what it calls for. Now as to your question, if you have an IFR clearance, you can go anywhere you like while on that clearance. It is up to ATC to ensure that everyone is out of your way... If not, then they will change your clearance.

As to the entering class D while also IFR. You are completely in the clear on this. It is the responsibility of the IFR controller to ensure that the tower knows where you are at. This can be done in many ways but is not of major concern to you the pilot. Now if you are VFR. You do indeed have to talk with the tower prior to entering the class D UNLESS you are getting VFR advisories from an approach control or an enroute facility. They then are responsible by their own rules to get you cleared through the Class D unless they tell you to either contact the tower for clearance through or tell you to remain clear of the class D. Sometimes this is done because they are too busy to call the tower, or can't get through because the tower is to busy to answer right away...

regards

Scott

[Keygrip]

So - if Approach keep the aircraft until 2nm from the field - and then pass it across on a "free call" (without informing the relevant Tower - for whatever reason) - who is at fault??

The first thing that the Tower controller knew about this inbound was a call on the R/T at 2nm from the field - in a frantically busy chunk of airspace (which may be why Approach did not inform them).

I fully understand the Tower controllers chagrin - but who is responsible if Approach keep you until 2nm out??

If the answer is "Pilot" - then tell us how to co-ordinate with ATC who - for reasons known to themselves - have elected to keep the aircraft on frequency for so long (and have the "big picture" in their minds).

[av8boy]

To reiterate what Scott said, if said aircraft is on an IFR flight plan and is talking to approach (for the sake of argument, let's assume that everything else is as it should be), it's a controller/controller issue. So, if you're two miles out, IFR, and inbound to my airport and the first thing I hear about it is a call from you, my response is going to be:

1. "holy crap!" (not on the air though),
2. a quick look around to see whether you're conflicting with any other traffic (or, if you prefer, to see whether any other traffic is conflicting with you...),
3. a question to you as to whether you really are on an IFR clearance, and then
4. a terse word with the approach controller.

That ain't your fault.

Remember though, although you're in the right in the IFR situation, that fact will do little to console your next of kin. If you find yourself on an IFR clearance two miles from your destination and still talking to approach rather than the tower, you might want to mentnion something to the approach controller. He/She is probably thinking he/she already switched you over to the tower.

Again, in the IFR situation, if the tower controller takes a chunk out of you even though the approach controller was the one who failed to switch you, you may feel free to consider this reaction unreasonable. Something bad happened in his/her life just then, and he/she took it out on you.

In any case, you still might want to file a NASA (ASRS) form. If it turns out that you made the mistake, it's a nice tool. However, even if you were completely in the right, the data are valuable when it comes to improving the system.

Finally, you may want to ensure that you know what's going on before you get in your car and go home. A call to the tower may or may not be a good idea (if it was me up there, it'd be a good idea!). If it turns out that you were right, you might want to follow this up with a request that the tapes covering this event be preserved, and then make an appointment with the tower staff to go and listen to them. Some of my brothers and sisters in ATC may disagree, but personally I think it would be a great opportunity for you to get a feel for how coordination is done between the TRACON and the tower. Standing around in the tower cab might be time well spent as well.

Sorry I went on so long!

Dave

[FWA NATCA]

KeyGrip,

As Scott said on an IFR flight plan you are automatically cleared into Class B, C, and D airspace (unless the radar controller instructs you otherwise), so your instructor is lucky that he didn't receive a pilot deviation.

As for the Class D, as Scott said, the IFR controlling facility is responsible for notifying the VFR Tower (Class D) controllers of your Call Sign, Type Aircraft, and Estimated Time of Arrival. The IFR controlling facility should switch your communications over to the VFR tower in sufficient time for the Tower to sequence you into their traffic pattern (usually about 5 miles out).

In an overflight situation the IFR controlling facility is responsible for pointing you out to the Class D VFR Tower, or even in a Class C airspace to the Tower if you are flying through the towers airspace.

If you are flying along VFR but receiving VFR traffic advisories from a Radar Facility (en-route center or Approach Control), again the IFR controlling facility if necessary will point you out to the Tower.

If you are flying along VFR and "NOT" receiving traffic advisiories, then you are responsible for contacting the controlling facility prior to entering their airspace.

Mike
NATCA FWA