Helicopter instruction: Cost etc

[HeloTeacher]

I would like to pose a question to anyone working (or who has worked) in a flighth school employing instructors with relatively few hours. Canadian regulations require a lot more time prior to obtaining the instructor rating and so my experiences here don't really apply.

What I would like to know, is how a CFI / operator attracts and, more importantly, keeps these instructors. Are there ways to encourage them to stick around after they have the first burst of hours or is it a given that they will leave as soon as possible?

Any input would be much appreciated.

Also, anyone who has experience operating Bell 47 or Schweizer trainers, how have you found their utility and cost versus the R22.

[Hughes500]

HeloTeacher

I operate 300C's with a school that operates R22. All the students who have tried both have always gone with the 300.The most common Reasons stated being
a) It is bigger and more comfortable inside
b) It is more forgiving and easier to fly
c) There is always plenty of power in hand
d) Students never hear anything bad about 300's ie mast bumping and more R22's seem to crash through pilot error ( before everyone jumps down my throat remember perception is very powerful )

All the above is dispite the price being 10% more expensive. However I generally find that a student learns quicker in the 300 so actually from his point of view it is the same price.

As for relibility and cost I would have to say they are about the same ( based on my 300's flying about 400 / 500 hrs a year )

300 uses 3 gal more fuel but does not have a massively expensive rebuild every 2200 hrs or 10 years If you actually factor this in it makes a big difference to your DOC's

If you really want to go cheap pick up a 269B ( £ 35000 ) they have huge lives on components and the purchase cost is very small and like the 300 cheap to insure against an R22 ( this should tell you something about the R22 as a trainer, insurance companies hate paying out, so stuff the R22 with much higher premiums )

Hope this helps, for more info e mail me and I will provide you with a phone number for a chat as my typing is too slow

Have a safe one this year everyone

[fishboy]

MONEY!!
That's what keeps a good instructor.
Unfortunately, in this industry, instructors are still thought of as being at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to respect/money.
I worked as an instructor for several years and loved it (still do). The problem is; after spending upwards of $40000 USD (more in the UK), everyone eventually wants some return on their investment. I think we all love flying and wouldn't want to do anything else, but we have to have a life/make a living as well.
During my time as an instructor, I saw quite a few guys come and go. Most, get themselves a thousand hours or so, and go fly a bigger, turbine engined machine, for more cash, less working hours and more respect. If you want to keep an instructor, give them all three.
An instructor that has been with a company for a long time, will have lots of contacts, respect from any flight examiners, and will know how to attract and deal with new students/customers. They will have extensive knowledge of the local area for any photo jobs you get in, and your insurance rates should be a lot less with high time, proven instructors.
I doubt things will change, but all those reasons and many more are why instructors leave as soon as possible.
Without instructors there would be no pilots.
I hear the Schweizer 300 CB, has recently completed 100 thousand hours without a single fatality. That' pretty impressive considering it's the same bunch of people that fly the R22.

Happy New Year all.
Fly safe.

[HeloTeacher]

Hughes500, where do you operate, i'm trying to get some comparisons. Thanks for the reply about the 300, I have little experience with them.

Fishboy, please let me know what country you are working in, and would you be willing to let me know how much is low? In Canada the reg's are restrictive enough that instructors on helos do MUCH better than fixed wing guys, but there are very few of us around.

I too enjoyed instructing, and have been approached a couple times now to run a school but am researching it first.

[Hughes500]

HeloTeacher

Operate in the VERY WET UK !! Perhaps I should start a thread on UK weather but that would be as about as boring as the R22 posts

[lmlanphere]

the school that I am familiar with in the states (northwest) starts low time instructors in the low teens per hour (USD). It's basically part time work as well, when you figure in scheduling problems and weather cancellations. You can do about as well bussing tables at a busy restaurant.

[fishboy]

I did all my instructing in the USA, I'm in the UK at the moment. I started as a low time 200 hour instructor and saw one or two come and go, from 160 hours. We trained a few people from scratch to CFI and they stayed for a while. Only a few stay much longer than 1000 hours, Usually for personal reasons, definitely not financial. I stayed because I couldn't get a work permit for anything else. I loved it even though I was working at least six days a week from as early as 6 in the morning to 11 at night for around $600 a week. I had it good and I had been doing it for 3 years at that time.

[RW-1]

I'm told by local operators here I have talked to, that I can be picked up for non-paid, supplemental flying by several outfits around here when I have the COMM and 150+ hours. My CFI did a few jobs for some of them when he was at the same place I was time wise, so for me it's get time, get time, get time.

As it is when I bag the Comm I'll start CFI, hopefully when I have the time built up, I'll then take on some odds and end things to grab more time as I progress. the operators that do this know that we might leave when enought time is gained to pursue other objectives, but it's offset by the continuous stream of other people coming in, like me.

[HeloTeacher]

OK, here's the deal, for arguments sake, let's say I am advertising for a helicopter instructor, not asking for high time, just the rating. What would you guys consider to be a fair wage. Not what you necessarily see these days, but what you think is right.

[AdvancingBlade]

HeloTeacher, here's a "downunder perspective", the training outfit where I work operates 2 300C's and a 300CB, on mostly training work with some other jobs here and there.As instructors we are paid on an hourly rate for flying only, as you probably know; this can mean an 8 till late day but with no flying going on, there's no money coming in despite the machines turning all day.
My ideal (and that of all the instructors down here nationwide), would be to at least have a respectable retainer each week, $200 would be fine, and even better than that would be to have a salary that ensures the rent gets paid etc...
This would be at least a recognition of the fact that an instructor does far more than just fly with students, ie:answering questions, managing training, teaching theory classes...

Note:
An instructor will be paid on the same conditions no matter what their experience within the organisation or on type, as a result; they turnover at least every 12 to 18 months or 1000 to 1500 hrs, whichever comes first...regardless of liking the job or not.

What is the lot of an instructor like elsewhere?

[This message has been edited by AdvancingBlade (edited 06 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by AdvancingBlade (edited 06 January 2001).]

[SPS]

It's pretty close to your description in UK and NZ from my own experience, but I never did it for the money.

Saved me a fortune not paying for flying and I really enjoy teaching.

[HeloTeacher]

I was most recently making $60 / hr revenue hours only, no base pay. My co-worker was making $2500 / month plus $20 / hr. How much we flew determined whether he or I had the better month. Both of us were from an operational background (VFR + IFR) and enjoyed the job.

Canada seems to be unique in its instructor rating requirements so I think I may be forced into a unique solution.

[AdvancingBlade]

SPS, I agree totally, I enjoy the job also, and it has proven to be invaluable experience to work with a variety of people and to see them progress throughout their training.
It has always struck me as strange though that some of the least experienced in the business have the priviledge of training the next generation of pilots and are rewarded the least for their efforts.
As a mater of interest, we are paid on revenue hours only @ $30/Hour, what's the average in the northern climes?...

Again, I love the job, but I cant pay the bills with love...

[HeloTeacher]

How much flying are/were you doing?

How do they charge the students for briefings, or do they?

What were you flying?

Just trying to soak up all the info I can...

[AdvancingBlade]

All the training at the moment is in Schweizer/Hughs 300's (2xC, 1xCB), there is some turbine going in an H500, but that is the bosses toy exclusively...
On a good week each instructor would do about 10 hrs and by the end of the month do between 40-50 hrs, sometimes more, sometimes alot less.As far as the billing of students goes, they are charged for the machine only, briefings and "Q&A" time is not included.

We are subcontractors to a university based course also; but that's a whole different story.Flight training for tertiary institutions is becoming the norm in this neck of the woods I think; with flight training operators clambering for govt money and student loans, this means steady numbers throughout the year and access to more teaching resources, but a huge headache when dealing with a large buracracy.

What are requirements for instructors in Canada?...in terms of licences, experience, endorsements...?

[HeloTeacher]

To obtain the instructor rating (class IV) in Canada requires:

CPL-H and
w/ 250 hrs PIC in helos
w/ instructor course
-30 hours dual
-40 hrs ground instruction

Hope I got all the numbers right, I'm going from memory on a couple, but the main point is the 250 PIC req'd, so it cannot be obtainined immediately after the commercial without paying for an additional 200 hours-ish out of pocket. Most people don't have an extra $70K for the PIC plus $10K for the rating.

[George Semel]

Well I was just offered employment with the University of North Dakota on Monday as a Helicopter Flight Instructor, for there Rotorcraft Division. They have 300 C/B's and 206 B-3. I had applied back in August, they Interviewed me in December and offered me the job. They are starting me at $ 30,000.00 per year with some extras. I have both Airplane and Helicopter ratings on my Flight Instructors along with Instrument Instructor for both. Being dual rated most likly put me on top. Since I don't have a College Degree. I'm also an MEI too. I think my total time and my total time in Helicopters and total Instrument and Multiengine time,and my total time as a flight Instructor counted for a lot since I lack college. I have recived four more offers since Monday. One for a Beech 1900 C and Metro 3's a BH-206 135 charter job, Twin Otter in LV, another BH-206 job in AZ, and a maybe offer to fly an AS-355 Twin Star. Out side of the Twin Star job, the pay scale is pretty much the same with in 1,000 to 2,500 dollars difference. I currenly fly part time for a TV station doing ENG. So it most likly come down for me as to were I want to live. Its not even Fire season yet.

[This message has been edited by George Semel (edited 11 January 2001).]

[HeloTeacher]

I was flying 50-70 hours a month myself, depended a lot on weather.

50 was nice.

70 was a bag-drive and not much fun.

Some days I miss sliding sideways down the runway at 30 kts wondering how to explain what went wrong and trying not to roll-over, all at the same time. And some days I don't :-)

[AdvancingBlade]

Your thread "Low Time Instructors" is very pertinent in NZ, the requirements for a C cat instructor are as follows:
CPL(H)...(150hrs)
PinC 150hrs
Instructor training 25hrs
Instructional Techniques course

The IT course is required to be run by a teacher not a flight instructor and deals with the delivery of a lesson ie: whiteboard, OHP's, teaching aids etc...
There is no formalised requirement for ground instruction time but a candidate must be able to deliver any briefing that the testing officer specifies, (there are about 30 promulgated briefings).

There is definitely not the luxury of being able to pick and choose work down here even for a very experienced driver!...
So far I havent found any major advantage in having fixed wing and helo instructor ratings as most operators are one or the other.

Any benefit in having an FAA ATPL as opposed to multi I/F in the US or Canada?...

[George Semel]

In the US its just Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. I got one with Single and Multiengine class ratings on it. If you are going to fly for a Commuter or Regional Airline along with the Majors and for any seat in a jet, yep its a must have. I just have a Commercial with Instruments for Helicopters and I'm going to do the Airline Transport Pilot Rotorcraft Helicopter. Why because more and more employers here are asking for it. It's like and Instrument Helicopter Rating 15 years ago it was nice to have now if you don't you may not get hired. About 10 years ago you took the first offer you got in Jan or else you would not have a seat for the season. Now things are a little better. I know what its like to be a low time pilot, its not fun, but on the other hand a willingness to put up with some things will help latter on. The Helicopter end of the business is very fickle. Its going to get better down the road. Some of you guys that Are in training now will end up with some pretty good seats in a few years.

[helimutt]

I qualified as an AFI last year but as I had to stay at work as a marine engineer to pay off my loans etc, I've been unable to find a position of employment instructing as yet. Every company I've approached has turned me down due, I think, to the fact that there are a large number of AFI/FI's at the minute (in the UK that is). Do I just give it all up and forget about ever flying and doing the job I once dreamed of, or do I stay current (more and more expense) and keep my fingers crossed?

[The angry palm tree]

Hello all!

OK, I've just joined this fraternity and the subject of low hours instructors is probably going to be very relevant to me soon, as it's probably the direction I, like all my predecesors, will have to take!

I would also be interested to know what the attitude is towards University flying school and the pilots that they churn out. I've spent the last year or so trying to pay my own way for a CPL, it's been a struggle financially and I managed to clock up around 50 hours, every one of which has been damn good fun! Now, out of the blue I have been offered a place on a University course, which will give me another 150 hours and a CPL (and just over 80 hours fixed wing with a fixed wing PPL). It will also leave me with a rather large student loan to pay off, but there you go!

I know I'll be trying VERY hard to get a job because I'm determined and it's what I want to do. I think I'll have some pro's and cons, I'm 42 years old, so at least I'll look experienced! but then again I'm 42 years old....

I'd hate to think that I was also up against an industry that regards University trained pilots in a bad way.

Have fun

The angry palm tree
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe

[Semi Rigid]

I still get a kick out of teaching someone to pilot a helo. It is one of lifes great thrills to see that grin broaden and spread accross someones face once they have nailed hovering. I will always keep my Instructor rating current as there is always work during the slow times in other sectors of the industry. Put it this way - if it wasnt for becoming an instructor I would not currently be flying in one of the most beautiful countries in the world, on good money, everything paid for & a very challenging if not the most challenging helicopter enviornmet in the world. Instructing on helicopters gives you the only chance to "mess & muck" around with a piece of kit with no boss going to bawl you out for time wasting. Dont get to muck around too much these days with the gear cause trying to get them to turn a buck but I await in anticipation to `learn' that next helicopter enthusiast with relish & excitment. Keep on pulling the world out of the s**t chaps.

[SPS]

AdvancingBlade,

I would have replied eariler but I've been busy and forgot to check this thread.

The pay is better up here. I know where you are now, you'll know of me too as Andy took some copies of my book. Say Hi to Nigel for me, met him last week, we flew a little and I took the pics that are on my website (Rec. flying NZ and visit Schwiezer page, www.helicopterpilotsguide.com (http://www.helicopterpilotsguide.com)

Angry palm is round the corner from me and is doing the northern version of the same course you do down there.

Helimutt - Yes, I agree on the glut of UK AFI'S , I wrote to someone on another thread
about it I think. It's real hard I know but a friend over here gave me some very good advice once. He said "If a man really wants a job he'll GET a job". And do you know, he is right, because aside from the lucky ones it is the people that just put in lots of honest graft that suceeed, so don't give up eh? Future Pilots need you !

SPS

Outside the square on an oblate sphere that shrinks in an expanding universe.

[Abbeville]

Excuse the posh title!. .. .Have done a search but can't trawl anything up. Can anyone indicate an average figure that a QHI can expect to earn in the home counties as an assistant instructor and a full instructor teaching PPLs on Robbies.. .. .Thanks. .. .A

[Grainger]

Well, the exact figure varies but "not enough to make a living" probably sums it up.. .. .Seriously, it helps if you are doing it because you love flying and you love teaching. If you are in it just for the money you will probably be disappointed.. . . . <small>[ 06 March 2002, 20:27: Message edited by: Grainger ]</small>

[Balance!]

Most of us would be happy to advise but, Abbeville, as you do not reveal much about yourself, you're possibly not going to get a straight forward reply.. . . . <small>[ 06 March 2002, 20:42: Message edited by: balance_trim ]</small>

[Abbeville]

Fair call Balance_Trim!. .. .Am currently flying aloominim overcasts and am still an active light aircraft pilot in my spare time. Retirement from airline flying is, regrettably, in sight now and I was thinking of a new challenge to keep the old 2bit brain active. I am seriously considering flingwings, having done a couple of instructional trips a few years ago and really enjoyed it. I couldn't continue then because I couldnt afford it!. .. .My rationale is to do something worthwhile but I still need to work out whether or not I can earn enough instructing on flingwings, to recoup the considerable investment, and perhaps make some beer money as well! I don't intend this to seem mercenary - merely practical.. .. .Any top tips would be appreciated.. .. .Regds. .ABB

[Balance!]

Ok Abbe here you go and all costs are appox. of course. If you're in the UK, you got to look at around £10 - 12000 to get you rotary licence. (You do get a dispensation for the fixed wing but it's not worth considering in the equation until you go try a whirly and see how you adapt to it). Then you have to build 200hrs PI rotary in order to do the FI course (say around £27000) and then you do the FI course (I'd guess around £7000 ish). After that little lot (lets call it around £45000) you come out with an FI(R). If you're jolly lucky you might get some work from a busy school who will provide the FI cover for you while you're restricted. During this time, the rough going rate for an FI(R) is around the £35 per flying hour mark with nothing for giving ground school tuition. Once you've instructed for 100 hours AND obtained 25 signatures (from your CFI, for supervising 25 solo student flights), you can apply to have the FI(R) restriction lifted. Now, as a fully fledged FI you can charge around £40 per hour.. .. .As you can see it takes an awful lot of instructing to get your money back (and don't let my wife see this post!)! However, the joy and personal satisfaction I get from teaching something that I love (not to mention the entertainment value), has it own intrinsic value and far outweighs the financial considerations of doing it.

[Whirlybird]

balance-trim,. .. .Aren't you a bit out of date on this? Since JAR, the requirement has been 155 hours (can count some f/w, but not that many) then CPL ground exams and 30 hour flying course, then after 300 hours TT including 100 PIC (ALL rotary) do instructors course to become FI(R). Now, that may be different if you've been flying f/w commercially, so it may be me who's got it all wrong. Anyone know for certain?. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 14:39: Message edited by: Whirlybird ]</small>

[Balance!]

Whirly - You're quite right times have changed, but the difficulty is trying to put down chapter and verse of the current requirements, made especially complicated if you hold this, but not that and have time on the other (if you see what I mean). If one reads GID26 JAR CPL(H) (17/10/01)there's all sort of changeable parameters that Abbeville might want to consider. Abbeville holds (one assumes) an ATPL so does get dispensations all over the place. I was trying to give a general overview of the sort of costs to be expected, ie lots! . .The payment part is as accurate as I can tell at the moment, based on personal circumstances.. .. .Ps - how's you hour building going

[Balance!]

Abbeville. .. .Whirly's comments made me surf the net to find out how much it has changed. .since I did it. According to JAR-FCL 2.335 Pre-requisite requirements of. .the FI(H) course are. .. .a) At least 300 hrs flight time (of which at least 100hrs shall be PIC if. .holding ATPL(H) or CPL(H) OR 200 hours PIC if holding a PPL(H) - no reduction in the PIC time even if you hold f/w time. .. .b) met the knowledge requirements for a CPL(H) as set out in AMC FCL. .2.470(b) - basically have passed all the written CPL exams (with the heli versions). .. .c)10 hr instrument flight instruction. .. .d) 20 hrs cross country as PIC. .. .e) passed a specific pre-entry flight test within 6 months preceding the. .start of the course.. .. .So in essence, my numbers in the earlier post still seem reasonably. .accurate as they were based on obtaining a PPL(H), building 200hrs PIC, then completing the instructor course.. .The full blurb is available on the CAA website <a href="http://www.caa.co.uk" target="_blank">www.caa.co.uk</a> and the JAA website <a href="http://www.jaa.nl" target="_blank">www.jaa.nl</a>. .. .Good Luck. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 21:22: Message edited by: balance_trim ]</small>

[acc]

Try Oz, 400 hrs at $US150 in R22

[HeloTeacher]

I have a few questions if anyone is willing to answer them:. .. .I was wondering about how many flying hours per year one could expect flying in these positions at 35 pounds per flying hour?. .Also, what is the cost of living in comparison to other locales (I'm Canadian)? Rent, house prices, groceries, etc.. .Does the wage increase with experience?. .. .Thanks in advance

[Abbeville]

balance_trim. .. .you are in danger of getting a free beer from me.. .. .Much appreciate the trouble you have gone to. Lot of useful stuff there.. .. .Many thanks. .. .Abb. ............................... .. .Takatakataka...Mein Gott those Fokkers are Messerschmidts!!!

[Balance!]

Abbeville - happy to help where I can - email me if you want any more info.. .Heloteacher - Hard to answer your questions really and these answers will probably not help much, but here goes.. .Hours - depends on the school and whether you work 5, 6 or 7 days a week. Demand for ppl instruction generally is greater at weekends than weekdays. Some schools much busier than others due to their location. Some only do commercial instruction, some both, some private only. . .Pay - unlikely to go up by much, unless you start getting more qualifications ie Instrument, commercial instruction, bigger machines, twins, TRE etc. I don't know for sure by how much as I'm at the bottom of the scale - R22's, R44's and B206's and without any additional qualifications/ratings. This is typically the freelance rate. Many instructors are on a salary and probably wouldn't care to divulge their income. Perhaps some more experienced instructors would care to comment.. .Cost of Living - don't really know how to provide a useful comparison. You'd need to specify some items and we could let you know how much they cost here.. .rgds Balance. . . . <small>[ 08 March 2002, 21:03: Message edited by: balance_trim ]</small>

[Helinut]

Balance-Trim,. .. .I believe that unfortunately you have missed one important part of JAR-FCL 2 in your summary. Under JAR-FCL 2 you cannot be paid for your flying (whether as an instructor or not)unless you hold a commercial licence. This only applies to those starting since JAR-FCL 2 came into force.. .. .It is not the end of the world, because you only need to add a CPL(H) Modular Flying course to your list. However, it is yet another expense, I am afraid.

[HeloTeacher]

The reason I asked about the increased experience was because of my ratings. I'm and ATPL(H), IFR, multi-experience, off-shore right now in Africa, and have about 900 hrs of instructional time thus far. I enjoy the instructing life and was trying to compare what the options were in different parts of the globe.. .. .Specific cost comparisons I'd be interested in are as above: rent, house prices, average grocery bills, automobile prices, etc.. .. .As a comparison, my last ab initio job in Canada was paying $50.00 per flight hour, no base. It was not pleasant.. .. .Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

[Balance!]

Helinut. .Good spot! I missed it when typing and hadn't re-read my post properly. Add in another £7-8k for that.. .. .Heloteacher. .Without absolute specifics here's an attempt to answer your questions.. .4 bed detached house in London say &gt;£1.5M, in middle England - say £250,000, in out of the way places - say £100,000. .Rent - about the same sort of relationship as above.. .Grocery bill (depends where you shop of course, Harrods v M&S v Tesco v Lidl). Our weekly shopping bill (family of 4) is approx. £150, some friends manage to do it on £80, others £200 (depends entirely on your lifestyle - and choice of wine!!). .Supposedly a good relative cost of living indicator is a McDonalds Big Mac meal - over here it's £2.88. .Cars- small run-around new about £7000, large executive say £35000. However, petrol is currently £0.72 per litre.. .Also, checked with some other instructors more qualified than I and their thoughts are that payment varies very little with experience. Their viewe is that experience gets you the job and keeps the job but doesn't mean you get paid any (much) more for it.

[Camp Freddie]

the company where I do PPL flight instruction on the R22, has been paying £40 per flight hour to a full FI(H) for years and years.

lately I have heard people saying they are getting £45 or £50, but others saying they are on £35 or in one case £30 :(

I am trying to get a consensus for what the proper rate is before I ask for a raise, so come on how much you guys getting out there ? and remember it is full FI I am interested in not the restricted guys (& gals)

????

[imabell]

if you are a private pilot you should thank someone for paying you at all.

[Whirlybird]

Seems to be £40 in my part of the world; £30 for FI(R)s.

[Bronx]

£40??? :eek:
That's over 60 bucks an hour on top of the cost of the helo.
No wonder learning to fly costs so much in England.

So FI's with low hours must get more an hour than pro's flying helo's in oher jobs jobs like SAR, EMS. :confused:

[Watchoutbelow]

Yes but due to weather costs and hours of daylight they do not get much at the end of the day.
How can anbody be payed on a restricted flying licence?
It seems to laugh in the face of commercial licence holders, or am I way off?

[Camp Freddie]

Whirly,

ta for that, you working now? you allowed to say where?

also anyone else got hard figures?

Imabell,

no I have not got a private licence, thanks for your helpful contribution

Watchoutbelow,

a restricted instructor or FI(R) needs a regular FI present on the airfield or locality while they are flying to supposedly supervise them, they cannot send 1st solo, or 1st solo navex I think (not sure about the last bit under JAR) otherwise unrestricted.
not sure what your point is mate?

[bugdevheli]

Gawd Blimey you didnt tell me you got paid for flyin around:)

[VeeAny]

£40 ish a flying hour,

Still on a PPL and after 1400 ish hours i've realised that it's not CPL/PPL or 200 / 2000 hours that counts it is ability and nothing more, yes time builds experience but experience and inteliigence
are the factors in ability.

Just because anyone has passed a test with an examiner at commercial or private level does NOT make them competent, other than on the day.

I do not mean to denigrate the very low hour commercial guys with this, but the attitude that a commercial licence means you are better than private is b**lsh*t (you may have been tested to a higher standard)

Some of the best pilots (not all) I know are private, (with experience) and some of the more mediocre (not crap) are commercial.

Sorry for being contreversial but truth hurts.

I have a J.A.A CPL(H) test in the next two months and pass or fail my attitude will not change.

V.

[Watchoutbelow]

VeeAny, I would agree with you, but having a commercail licence should mean you can earn money and ply the trade, just as a Taxi driver can charge for carrying passengers.

A Private Licence is the equivalent of a drivers licence, and yes a lot of Drivers out there are better then Taxi drivers, (As we all know)
But they shouldn't be allowed earn money from it, or what chance do Taxi drivers have in making a living?

[VeeAny]

WatchoutBelow,

In some respects you are right, but just because an individual passes a test on a given day does not make them competent.

I try and instill a survival instinct in my students.

I know a lot of people in the industry, and the only thing that matters is to me is that they fly well, and come back alive. We all make mistakes (that's how we learn) but I know that some commercial guys could not cope with say a stuck lever at near max power, and some private guys could.

There is no industry way to allow for this, but ability is ability nevertheless.

I am ALWAYS happy to learn from the examiner(s) who do my check rides , coz one day they may keep me alive.

Fly safe

V.

[Camp Freddie]

Mr VeeAny,

I dont disagree with you that a PPL guys can be more switched on the a CPL munger, ultimately it depends on the person, it is like saying someone is clever because they have a degree, when all it really means is thay have jumped through a greater hoop.

getting the CPL will I think get you more respect from your professional colleagues, as you have got through the entry barriers to an exclusive club.

there has to be some barriers to restrict entry and although their are many people with a PPL + instructor rating still plying their trade (training only of course), it is a bit of a silly system when looked at from the casual observer where you can do engine off landings with someone but you cant fly him to a local hotel for lunch.

2 or 3 years ago there were 10 unemployed AFI(H)'s on every street corner, now there seems to be barrell loads of really low time CPL's around. its still hard to get your foot in whatever route you take I think.

anyhow can we hear some more of what people get paid please ???????, I want a raise and I want to justify it.

[Whirlybird]

Camp Freddie,

I'm doing a very small amount of instructing...only trial lessons so far, and it's lucky I don't have to live off it or I'd be starving! But it's a start and I'm not complaining. I'm not going to say where, because although most people know who I am, I'd just as soon absolutely everyone didn't. :) Is North-West UK close enough for you? And from what I hear, the rates I gave you are fairly standard in that area, although some people in the South get more...as with most jobs. :(

[Helinut]

Whirly,

we are/were all keen to full exercise our new found instructor skill, not to mention our ability to be paid to fly. However, I think that starting by doing the "odd" trial lesson is really a pretty good way of starting. It gives you time to develop your own technique (no amount of "teaching" an FI instructor is a substitute for teaching a real ab-initio student / trial lesson customer).

You also have time to reflect upon what you did last time, before you get your next victim. Before you know it, one of "your" trial lessons will turn into a full-blown PPL student, and away you go..........

I still miss doing TLs - seeing the pleasure people get from a simple hele flight - Enjoy it!!

[deeper]

sorry freddie,
i misunderstood,.... again.

i thought you meant you were a pp with an instructor rating.
a pet hate of mine

we pay instructors, grade two $40 australian per flight hour.

grade 1 instructors get $50 per hour to fly and if they have someone in the air solo supervision at the same time they
get $65 per hour. some like it some don't.

it works out at $45000-$50000 per year average. not too bad over here.

again apologies.

[Woss goin on..?]

Guess it depends on your deal....better to do loads of hours at 40 rather than a few at 45.

However, I reckon 35 for a new fi(r) and 40-45 for a full fi is about as good as you'll get at most places. However, if you've got multiple types to your name and need to keep them all current, and use them at your school, you should be able to justify a bit more than a bloke with just the R22 for example.

Get the best you can for yourself and study the area carefully. There are schools about who are desperate for consistant instructing staff but there are others who have a ready supply of folk waiting to jump in at a discount.

And also don't hang around....winter in the uk aint the best time to look for a raise in this industry.

Dont forget its your life on the line when your'e doing that eol and that's worth quite a bit an hour to me!

(FYI rates now are no more than they were in 89/90)

[Fatigue]

Hey there guys and gals,

Just wondering on what sort of pay helicopter instructors in the UK get paid, per hour/ annually.....how many hours a year do you fly and if you get any pay teaching groundschool subjects??

many thanks,

Fatigue.

[Crashondeck]

The answer to this one is going to vary wildly. It depends on you and the company you work for. The company will dictate how ,many people come through the door for a trial lesson. It will depend on you to get those people who want to get a ppl to learn to fly with you. A newby instructor will earn less than an established instructor - fewer clients.

I worked in the south east for a biggish company and earned about £17k pa gross in my first 2 years instructing, but there are people out there earning a bit more. That was based on about 400 hours a year, working full time. WE did get paid a nominal amount for ground school.

[cyclic flare]

You can earn a bit more if you own your own machine. I earn around 40K flying my own machine i pay £20.00 per hour to the FTO.

Oh yes and i get to pay the fuel, insurance, and repair bills / servicing.

So all in all i make about £50.00 a week. Good job i have another job

Wouldn't swap it for anything

CF

[Charlie Hewitt]

Hi!
I am currently studying for a BSc in Agriculture at University. I have always had a passion for private planes and helicopters, and my ambition is to gain my PPL(H) while I am still young enough (23) to learn and master new skills without too much difficulty. Although i do not underestimate the hurdles that one must overcome when undertaking a pilots licence! Also, having read some of your e-mails. the job is lousy, and the pay is even worse!!

After my course finishes in June, I intend to travel the world for 6-8 months. I have heard that it is cheaper to take a PPL(H) overseas. Do you know of any problems associated with taking part or all of the licence overseas?

There are a few other golden nuggets i'd like to geen from you if i may.

- I wear glasses for close work. Would this deem me unfit to train for a licence?

- What would be the average cost for someone taking their PPL(H) with no previous experience? I believe that its based on the period of time you intend to do the course over, but an estimate would be of great help. if i hoped to complete my PPL in, say, 2-5 months?

- Is there much call for new pilots for delivery or VIP Business flights with companies? I understand that if i decided to go down this path i'd need a CPL. What does this involve over and above training for a standard private licence in terms of flying hours, cost and exams?


Thank you for taking the time to read the e-mail. Any information (published or personal suggestions) you could pass on to me would be of great interest.

Many thanks,

Charlie Hewitt.

[Ascend Charlie]

Charlie: (are we related?)
Most of the info you need can ge gleaned from reading other people's posts, but the simple answers to your questions are:

1.No
2. About 45 thousand.
3. No way on earth. What VIP wants a zero-time bograt driving him around? What manufacturer / dealer wants their multi-million dollar machine delivered by the same bograt? When you got your car licence, did Rolls-Royce ring you up to offer a job delivering their cars?

Search the other files and search your inner desires and your bank account, then make a decision.

[Whirlygig]

45 grand for a PPL ???

Mine totalled (including exams, medical, books, materials, accommodation, bribes etc) about £18k and that was for a Schweizer 300c. If you learn on a Robinson R22, the hourly rate is cheaper (but I have heard that the average time taken to pass is longer).

As for all the rules and regs concerning CPL here and abroad - what you can and can't do, what you need to take, get a copy of LASORS 2004 - if you can get through that, then you can get through anything ;)

Basically, to start a CPL course, you must have 155 hours (includes the hours taken for PPL), take a 30 hour course and pass more exams. For instructor rating, you need to have 300 hours.

Most companies would not take on a pilot with less than 500 - 1000 hours. You might get part time work doing pleasure flights but have another income.

That's it in a nutshell; check out the other fora here and flight schools own websites.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[3top]

Hi Charlie,

for private you need about 10 to 12 GrandUS$ (18.000 Pounds - that's nuts!!) in Panama, plus about 4 to 8 weeks, depending how much time you spend on the beach chasing girls. This PPL can be convalidated for 3 month at a time, but you also can work on your British Licence after that (one of our clients did just that), all your hours will count just fine (actually he did the Spanish Licence and uses it also in GB....)

a) Big soul-search: Do you REEAAAALY want to fly Helicopters for a living?
b) If just for fun and private, stay away from Europe! It will be boring and expensive. For the money spent for 5 hours you can also get a ticket fly to the US or Panama and fly these 5 hours here! Better yet safe the time for your vacation, get a 2-3 hour refresher (after you got your licence...) and fly here in your vacations - Adventure!

Contact me at [email protected] if you wish to learn more.

c) Soul-search again: CPL is about 35.000 US$ for around 160 hours and no job. Lousy pay for lousy jobs, just to get a couple hours ferry time per month, count on 2-4 years to land a job to get going......you REEAAAAALY need the NEEEEEED for rotors.....

d)Go to a FAA certified doctor and have him check you out if you can get a 2nd class medical you should be safe for a long time for private flying (3rd class medical needed there...)

e) ....see a) and c) again!

3top
:D :D :D

[Whirlybird]

Hi Charlie,

As you can see, you'll get as many answers as there are people. :confused: Still, I'll try and tell you as much as I know, and as has been said before, you can get the details elsewhere.

A PPL in the UK, on an R22, assuming you do it in close to the minimum number of hours, will cost you about £12,000. It's far cheaper to do it in the US, Australia, or South Africa. However, you'll either need to do a JAR PPL, at a school which does these, or sort out converting what you get if you want to fly afterwards in the UK...and that last bit I don't know about. Other disadvantages are different radio terminology, not being used to UK weather, different charts etc. Most people who get a US PPL need a few hours extra training when they get back to the UK. You should save money overall though.

Short sight...not a problem for a Class 2 medical for private flying. If you want to go commercial you'll need a Class 1, and won't get it if your eyesight is outside certain limits, which I'm not sure of. You could do a search on the medical forum to find out. However, if you're serious about getting a CPL, it's worth getting a Class 1 early on, just to make sure that you can. Again, rules are different in other countries.

If you want a CPL you need 155 flying hours in total, and to do 14 ground exams. You then do a 30 hour flying course, with a test at the end of it. What does that qualify you for? Very very little, with the industry as it is now. There's loads of low hours CPLs around who'd love the sort of work you mention, and the chance of getting it is virtually nil.

If you want to know anything else along these lines, have a look back at old posts on here...do a search. Most of this stuff his been covered in quite a lot of detail.

[Blue Rotor Ronin]

Charlie H,
first of all, forgive Willygig's catlike response to Ascend Charlie's truthful and honest response as to the cost of a CPL in the UK. Secondly 18 grand for a PPL is about 8 large too much and you can do much better off in the States with Helicopter Adventures in Titusville, Florida. They do JAR ops wonderkits of everything you'll need at about two thirds of the price. It's where Bristow send their raw recruits, and that's got to be worth a fair bit as they train the pilots well and on the cheep (like the budgie).
As a big plus you're right next to Cape Carnivore where many folk stalk the space shuttle launches and if a 1000ft hover watching the Endeavor launch is anything to go bye, it's unforgettable.
However, should you pass your exams and your requisite hours you still need a job. The current situation in Europe is sh*t, or at least North sea, uncertain even for those with 5,000hrs so think wisely before spending any savings.
Good luck
Redraven




:ok:

[Bronx]

£18,000 for a PPL? :eek: £12,000 for a PPL? :eek:

Which ever figure's correct that's way too much.
The difference in gas prices accounts for some but the biggest problem from what I've seen is instructors charge way too much in the UK. I've seen figures between £25 and £40 an hour quoted in this forum. :rolleyes:

When doing the math you'll have to allow for flights, housing, checkrides with an instructor when you get home but I reckon you're better off training in a country where gas is cheaper and instructors teaching PPL don't charge so much.

[Whirlygig]

Charlie,

If my response came across as catlike, as Blue rotor ronin suggests, then I apologize. £18k is not the cheapest option and, as I have said, I learned in the UK, on a Schweizer (quite a bit more pricey than a R22), at a v. reputable school. It took me 65 hours and in that figure I also include EVERYTHING, having kept full accounts.

Ascend Charlie - perhaps I misinterpreted. If you meant 45K for a CPL then, yes, that is about right.

[Whirlybird]

Ascend Charlie did in fact say 45 grand for a PPL, whatever he might have meant.

As an instructor, I quote that £12,000 to my students. But £18,000 could easily be closer in reality. Let's have a look at the figures.

Hourly rate: £210 plus VAT and landing fees where I am. You can get it for a bit more or a bit less, but I think that's probably typical. If it's a lot less do some research; in my experience you get what you pay for...and I learned that the hard way. :eek: OK, so around £250/hr all-in. Minimum required is 45 hours, but most people take 60-70. Since Charlie is young and plans to do it over a relatively short time, let's say 50 hours, though this may be over-optimistic. That gives £12,500 (which is where I got my figures from). Of course, he might do it in minimum hours, which would mean it'll cost around £11,000. BUT...books, charts etc - probably another couple of hundred quid. Ground school - usually learn it by yourself, but some places teach it, and would cost a bit. Exams - can't remember what they cost, but not free. Medicals and so on.... So perhaps £14,000 would be more accurate, as an average. Though for plenty of people Whirlygig's figure is probably closer.

As for our pay, £30-40 per flying hour is hardly a fortune. Briefings are free, and in most places tend to be thorough. With the UK weather, instructors still find it hard to survive. But unlike f/w instructors, who are paid less, it is just possible to make a living out of it. So they tend to be career instructors, rather than the airline wannabe hourbuilders and retired folk you get in the f/w world. As such, I'd say the overall standard is better...and I've been a student in both.

Anyway, even if you paid the instructors less, say, £20 an hour, it would make little difference. Students would pay about £230/hr, and the whole course, for 50 hours (to save my maths!) would be £1000 less. So you'd save a grand, and have instructors who cut corners since they probably weren't making enough to cover expenses! Not a lot of point really.

Flying is so expensive in the UK because of the cost of fuel in particular, then there's land prices, CAA fees, etc etc etc. Don't blame it on the instructors.

[jerry712731]

Hi Charlie
I started flying about 18 months ago and here is my 5 pennies worth.
I visited Helicopter Advdentures in Titusville and had a good look round, met the instructors and had a couple of trial lessons.
The costs published on thier web site of $13,230 is very good. I chose not to take a full course as I was unable to allow the 6 weeks (a mortgage to pay and a job to maintain) it would take.
The exchange rate at the time was no where as good as it is at present.

If I was in a position to spend 6 weeks over there at todays rates, I would be over there in a flash.

However, in the real world, I had to fit my flying in when weather and holidays permitted and the costs of £12000 are about the best you can expect. I know people who have spent about £18000 and that it not the limit.

I trained in a Schweizer / Hughes 269C and the above prices include VAT

Hope this Helps

Jerry

[Bronx]

I thought the prices students paid in England were bad, I had no idea they were astronomic.
£250/hr all-in? For a R22?? :eek:

"As for our pay, £30-40 per flying hour is hardly a fortune."
I disagree. I think it's a fortune, and a rip-off. That's the hourly equivalent of about £1400 - £1600 per week.
FI's in America don't earn anything like that, and they don't expect to.

"Briefings are free, and in most places tend to be thorough."
Free? The stude's about to pay £30-40 for the privilege of an hour's instruction. Of course they should be free. And they're only thorough in "most places"??

"So they tend to be career instructors, rather than the airline wannabe hourbuilders and retired folk you get in the f/w world."
Whoa there. I don't mean to be disrespectful Whirlybird, so please don't take it the wrong way, but you've only recently qualified as a FI. What's the problem with the guy/gal who qualified with you and wants to build hours instructing to go on to work as a professional pilot? And what's wrong with "retired folk" with decades of experience to impart? It depends upon the person not why they're instructing.

No wonder so many Brits come to America to do their training.

[Whirlybird]

Bronx,

Of course it's astonomical. But not much of that is due to instructors' pay, a point you conveniently ignored. You don't have something like 80% tax on fuel in the US. You don't have VAT on everything in the US, or not at UK rates anyway. You don't have landing fees in the US. These account for most of the costs.

£30-40 a week most definitely does not equate to the amount you suggest. You can only fly one hour in two anyway, on average; briefings for most exercises are 30-40 minutes. Instructors drag helicopters in and out of hangars, preflight everything, answer the phone etc, answer groundschool questions - all unpaid. Four hours is about the maximum flying you can do in a day, except possibly during the very long days of mid-summer, if you happen to work at an airfield that's open all hours. That's not even allowing for days you can't fly due to the weather. That means we're talking about £1000 a week as an absolute maximum for a six day week. That would only be during a heatwave in mid-summer at a school that's fully booked. I don't know, but I think half that is probably more realistic, as an average over the year. That's £20,000-25,000 a year at most. Not an absolute fortune really.

What you say about hour builders ought to be true. But my experience of f/w ones is that they resent the low pay, can't wait to escape, and take it out on students by cutting corners. Not all, but many. Some even think that this is justified - read various recent threads on the instructors forum. Yes, of course it depends on the person. But it's nice to have the occasional full time instructor who wants to be there and can actually afford to stay.

I agree that it's unsurprising that so many Brits train in the US. But as I've pointed out, even paying instructors half what they get now wouldn't alter that. You ignored that bit; why the focus on instructors' pay? Jealousy?

[Bronx]

I realise England's amazing taxes account for a lot and that airfields charge incredible fees for landing. I think I read somewhere it costs about £20 to land an R22 at Biggin Hill.

I don't agree instructors' pay is insignificant, but I dont see why helo FI's should charge any more than fixed-wing FI's. As a FI, you may not think £20 less sounds a lot but if I was a student, the difference between paying £230 and £250 an hour plus tax would seem like a lot to me. And yes, I think £20,000-25,000 a year is a lot. What do school teachers get paid in England?

Jealousy? No. :) I haven't done any PPL instructing for more than 20 years but I know students here only pay about $15-20 over the rental rate for instruction and it was less than that 20 years ago. The UK used to have a good system of PPL-FI's. Shame they stopped that.

I don't buy this living wage stuff. If you carry that through, if a FI has only got two students doing an hour a week does he charge them each £250 pr/hr so he gets a living wage at the end of the month/year? When I was a freelance/contract pilot I had some lean times but that's the deal if you get paid by the hour. If I'd put my hourly rate up I would have gotten even less work.

[Helibusdriver]

FI's are underpaid and overworked in every country in the western world.

Any FI with an ounce of common sense flowing through his veins will be finetuning his CV to "get out of jail" and into a real job.

Postings that claim FI's should have their pay reduced based on the assumption that they are overpaid are at best silly and ill informed.

The helicopter industry does not need pilots go slumming it for the first few years after they have qualified for their commercial licences, having invested anywhere from €70.000 to €100.000.

The demand for pilots is already greater than the demand. An insufficient number of qualified applicants are available for positions in the North Sea, despite what some posts claim.

In the next few years the situation will get even worse, as the retirement bulge is already starting to take effect.

Happy New Year to all!:cool:

[Camp Freddie]

seems to me having been a full time flight instructor for 3 years before I got my north sea job, that whirlybirds figures are spot on, I earned about £20,000 3 years in a row and worked far harder for it than I ever have before or since. and I do not think it is high pay in fact is is less than average pay in the UK

given that someone deciding to become a flight instructor now will have to spend £60,000 and even in my day (late 90's) I had to spend nearly £40,000 that doesnt seem an unreasonable salary, given that I was working 6 days a week for ages and ages and never had a holiday because I couldnt afford to.

the Figures Bronx gave assume we can fly 40 hours revenue per week or 160+ per month, which is not achievable in the UK , I think I averaged 40 hours per month and once achieved 75 in July one year.

I think Bronx is out of touch and unrealistic and thinks everyone should have it really crap cos he did when he was lad !

[Hoverman]

What's "ill-informed" about Bronx's posts?
Which 'facts' has he got wrong?
If there are'nt enough students about to keep you busy full-time how does charging more per hour attract more students/more work?
Or do you just keep charging more and more as the number of students fall to try to keep your monthly/annual earnings up? Sounds potty to me. In any world except 'designer' fashion and fancy restaurants, charging more doesn;t increase demand. Lower cost = more customers.

I can't see how landing fees make the problem worse for r/w than f/w. They're extortionate but f/w pay them as well. Do airfields charge more for R22's and H300's than light fixed-wings?
Helis do less landings during training so the student's bill for landing fees should be less than f/w UNLESS airfields charge a landing fee each time you set down in the hover square. Do they?

There's lots of jobs where training costs a lot of money and newly qualified people work long hours for poor money in the beginning. Doctors and lawyers for example.

[Camp Freddie]

the reality is and I know because I have done it for a long time that being a flight instructor for people doing there PPL is not a proper career, you work far more hours than a regular job for less money than a regular job. generally with no sick pay no no pension and no benefits.

and where did this stuff about charging more as you have less students come from. the instructor rate is £40 per hour more or less regardless of number of students, unless the school paying the instructor a retainer or different deal etc.

In the UK I worked endless days where the weather was bad or the aircraft u/s so earned nothing. even when there was student demand.

I dont understand this negativity about what is already a poor sector of the profession to go into from a "trying to justify it to your wife point of view as to why to spend £60k" and unlike doctors or lawyers the pay never goes up with more experience, there is only so many hours you can flying in a week given all the factors.

there is obviously a balance to be struck, just like on the north sea the guys up the front were at one time generally the lowest paid people on the a/c, then a reasonable pay structure was fought for which is more equitable.

there is nothing wrong with fair pay for hard work, some of you guys wouldnt be happy till the instructor was flying for free " just so it keeps the rates down"

flight instructors have had there keeness to fly exploited for years and it seems even worse in the US, and I dont think the answer is to drag everyone down to US levels of pay.

[Heliport]

CF
"and where did this stuff about charging more as you have less students come from. the instructor rate is £40 per hour more or less regardless of number of students"

I think it comes from some FIs above saying the hourly rate has to be around £40 pr hr to make a decent income spread out over a month/year because FIs don't fly 40 hours a week. What Hoverman and Bronx are saying is that's counter productive because demand would go up/there'd be more students if the cost was lower.
I suppose (I'm guessing) they'd argue that the £40 pr hr to make a 'living wage' argument doesn't apply at a busy school where FIs fly more hours so could charge less and still make a living wage.
I don't think anyone's saying there shouldn't be fair pay. The difference of opinion is whether £40 pr hr for PPL instructing is fair or too much.

BTW, no self employed people get sick pay, holiday pay, pensions, benefits etc whether they're instructors or not.

NB: I'm not taking sides, just trying to help you follow the opposing argument.

[Shark Attack]

Charlie

If you are going to convert a foreign commercial rating to a UK (JAA) commercial it realy does not matter where in the world you get it.

You can take any ICAO commercial and return to the UK, take the ATPL exams (5 months of hard grind at Cabair or 7 at Oxford - the only two residential courses) and take a flight test. Kaboom - done!!

The real question is where are you going to get your first job. The only realy even half guaranteed way of doing it is to become a flight instructor in the US. This is not half as scary as it might first appear, is actually great fun and hones your basic skills in ways that no other job can.

If you train in the US many schools will give you a J1 visa which allows you to STUDY AND WORK for two years. The key is to have as little time of the two year visa on the study and as much as possible on the work. I would recommend coming out to do your private (and instrument if poss) on an M1 visa (study only) and then returning to the UK and applying for the J1 visa. Bear in mind that you cannot apply for a J1 visa if you already have a Commercial from any country. This will give you maximum time to work and maybe even get an ATPL.

The instrument rating is crucial. Most jobs will ask for it later on. The UK instrument costs $40,000 so get an FAA one. Some schools have special dispensation (141) to teach this on lesser requirements so that you can do it post private pre commercial. What a great way to hour build!!! Having an FAA instrument will also reduce the cost of the UK Instrument by a substantial amount.

Helicopter Adventures has been mentioned in these listings and I would recommend them. They are the biggest civillian helicopter school in the world, are extremely professional and the maintenance is the best (which does make graduates a little spoilt on that count). Graduates can be found in most big Helicopter companies around the world which never hurts for later job prospects.

If you are looking for a more rounded education, mountains, fun flying and adventure then I would recommend NAC in Cape Town, South Africa to get your PPL. Cape Town is an incredible city and very cheap. After the PPL go to the US for the rest. The sensible way is to do it all in the US but who needs sensible.

Helicopter Adventures also does a joint JAA/ FAA commercial program - may be worth looking into.

Take everyones figures and double them. Take every time quoted and double it. Take your expected cost of living double it. Add these together and if you have this money and this time prepared then you are well prepared. I have seen too many people have to give up on their dream because they ran out of money. Many of them were pulling down big salaries previously and found it difficult to change spending habits. You are going to be a student which means a crappy car, no restaurants cheap rent and cheap brand foods. This will continue for the first couple of years.

Good luck and let nobody deter you...

And to all you prats out there asking someone if he realy wants to be a helicopter pilot - butt out and let someone live....


SHARK ATTACK

[Bronx]

Mr Selfish
"It was "Bronx" who suggested that FIs could get 40hrs pay per week. This contention is at best"ill informed" He ? also was responsable for the 250 pounds an hour nonsense.

Nope. I never said that. I said the figures Whirlybird gave (£35-40 pr/hr) were "the hourly equivalent of about £1400 - £1600 per week." Do the math yourself if you don't believe me.
Whirlybird's starting point was £210 pr/hr for training in an R22. £210 + tax = £246.75. OK to be accurate that's £3.25 short of what you call "the 250 pounds an hour nonsense".
Whirly added landing fees averaged out and came up with an 'all in' figure of £250 pr/hr and other folks agreed that was about right.

What beats me is this idea you put your hourly rate up if you're not working all day every day so your weekly earnings are in the region you think you should earn. I started out doing freelance work and in the early years was only working a day or two or week so my money was poor. That's the way it is if you're starting out self employed in any field not just aviation. Your earnings are low until you build up a reputation and customer base. Most folks who go into business earn very little money or even lose money in the first few years.

Yeah FI's are professional pilots but most, I say again most, are low time guys building hours to go for jobs they won't get until they've got more hours. If a career instructor with a few thousand instructing hours charges high fees good for him/her. You're paying for experience.

You think newly qualified FI's with a paper qualification, low hours and not much experience are worth £40 pr/hr. I don't. I think it's stupid money but the best of luck to you if you can get rich people who don't care what it costs and folk with family commitments who can't go to another country to train. The rest will go to other countries to do their training at a more reasonable cost.

[Whirlygig]

I think one of the problems here is that the cost of living in the UK is much higher than in the US.

The UK national average wage is £20,000. If you take a scenario of say, a young copper (salary £25,000) married to a nurse (salary £14,000) who wish to buy a property in the South of England (cost - average - £180,000 and deposit £20,000), then it doesn't take much to work out that they cannot afford to buy a house. Mortgage required £160,000 - lender's requirements being 3 times joint salary (i.e. 25k plus 14k times 3 = 117,000). This is usually the maximum that anyone can afford and still be able to eat.

So you see, £40/hour equating to 2 hours a day and a gross annual wage of £20,000 is not a wealthy salary.

Bronx - there is NO way that an FI can work 40 hours a week!! The £40/hour is for flying only. Everything else is unpaid. It is not stupid money. But yes, heli flying in the UK is for rich people (or very committed people) but there are so many economic reasons why the States and Antipodes are much cheaper - all to do with supply and demand.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Whirlybird]

Bronx,
One thing that may be different in the US and the UK is the way instructors get paid. You seem to think the instructors decide what to charge, and maybe that's the case in the US. Here the schools have a rate for the students, and pay their instructors an hourly rate. This varies, but seems to usually be £40/hr for QHIs, and £30/hr for FI(R)s. So your new instructor is not getting £40/hr anyway. This is usually so even if you're freelance and not getting a lot of flying, though I believe there are other ways it's set-up sometimes. So it's not up to us to be willing to take a cut in pay. I don't think the schools would agree - though I'm relatively new to this, and not certain.

Whirlygig is right; the cost of living here is much higher than in the US. So are the costs of things like medicals, travelling to the airfield (that 80% tax on fuel again) and so on. Your newly qualified FI(R) couldn't possibly fly more than four hours a day, which is £720/week. To do that he/she would be working about ten hours a day - checking helicopters, giving briefings, etc. And that's also assuming perfect weather, a six-day week, and a constant supply of students. And those just don't happen.

[Datcon]

Some of you seem bent on misunderstanding what Bronx said. He never said a FI can or does teach 40 hours a week.

Now I'm confused about what the FIs are saying. Some say FIs get £40 an hour. Some say the school charges that for instruction but keeps some and doesn't pay the FI the £40. If that's true either the student is subsidising the SFH cost or the school gets a hidden profit.

I've done some training in the States and you know where you stand. $XX for the helicopter and $YY for the FI. The school gets $XX and the FI gets the $YY. Your not expcted to pay extra for any time he spends checking helis, doing odd jobs around the school when he's not teaching. I don't know if they get paid by the school for that extra work or they accept it as part of being on the low rungs of the aviation ladder but it's not included in the amount you pay for the FI. Either way, the student isn't paying for it in his FI charge.

I agree with Bronx. £30/40 an hour for PPL instruction is way too much. As Whirlygig says, its all to do with supply and demand. If the cost of learning to fly wasn't so high there'd be more people able to do it and the demand would go up. You might get less per hour but your overall earnings would go up.

Part of the problem is because the CAA abolished PPL Instructors. It wouldn't be so bad if we had the US licensing stages, but a UK CPL is OTT and unnecessary just to teach PPL. It costs people a fortune to get a CPL and they want to recoup some of the cost and also it looks like it gives FIs ideas above their place on the ladder. Yes they're professional pilots, but usually with low hours and only an R22 rating. There's no way they'd get a 'professional' job other than instructing until they've built up some hours and they need the hours as much as the stude needs the instruction.


Moderators.
This is wandering away from what the original question. Would a thread comparing SFH rates and FI rates around the world be a good idea?

[Whirlybird]

Point of information: instructor pay was the same (less a bit becasue of inflation) pre-JAR when instructors only had a PPL.

[Shark Attack]

In the US most schools I know pay the instructor less than half the amount the student is paying for instruction.

Starting at $15 an hour is not unusual taking home less than $1000 a month some months.

MacDonalds pays better.

How much do you pay a plumber??????

Flight instructors should be paid AT LEAST GBP40 per hour. A professional job with so much at stake should elicit a professional wage.

Remember the first job will quite likely be as an instructor for the first 1000 hrs. I would rather pay more for the first 200 hours instruction in order to reap the benefit of the extra money for the next 800hrs.


SHARK ATTACK

[Whirlygig]

Some of you seem bent on misunderstanding what Bronx said. He never said a FI can or does teach 40 hours a week.

I am sorry Datcon, I have to respond to this. Bronx said, in his original post that £40/hour equated to £1,600 per week. Maths tells me that that means 40 working hours per week.

I cannot comment on the actual pay structures of instructors in the UK since I am only a PPL ( I hope my lovely instructor will reply - if he's reading this)... but it doesn't take an economist to realize that the major part of the high cost of learning to fly in the UK is NOT with the instructor's wage.

If my old instructor was paid £50/hour - I would not begrudge it but I do begrudge the high cost of fuel, the extra, apparent regulations that seem to prevail in the UK and the elitism that seems to pervade the helicopter world. In the US and down under, a helicopter is perceived to be more of a necessity in being able to get around such large areas of countryside. The UK is so small that helicopter travel is considered to be very much a luxury and so the demand is not there.

I don't think that global comparisons are necessarily worthwhile in a forum such as this. It well may be more cost-effective to go to the States to learn but country-wide conversions have to be taken into consideration as well as the hidden costs of flying full-time and living abroad away from friends and family.

If I decide to go for CPL, I might well go to Helicopter Adventures in the US but only after weighing up all pros and cons. But I am glad I did my PPL in the UK, trained by a v. reputable school and having full ATC to deal with as well!!

But please guys and gals... these trans-atlantic arguments don't do anything to explain the situation to a newcomer. The economics behind air travel in various parts of the world would be enough to fill a book!

Back to Charlie's original questions - allow for 2 months at least to get a PPL and that would be largely full-time. This is mainly to allow for the vagaries of the weather and aircraft servicability!! Five months and you would be able to earn some money in between flying perhaps!!

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Hoverman]

Bronx didn't say an FI can earn £1400-1600 a week. He said £35/40 an hour is "the hourly equivalent of about £1400 - £1600 per week." It is, based on the traditional 40 hour week though 35 hour weeks seem to be the modern trend. It was an illustration that the hourly rates are to high in his opinion.
:rolleyes:
The main reason for the elitism that seems to pervade the helicopter world in the UK is that helicopter flying is so expensive only well-off people can afford to learn to fly, self-fly hire, charter or own helicopters.
I've followed the arguments but nobody's explained yet why helicopter FI's should be paid a higher hourly rate than F/W FI's.


I've just done a quick web search. Rotary instructor rates across the US from Florida to California are generally about $20-30 pr hr. (£12.50 - £18.75). The most expensive I could find was a school in Colorado which charges $40 (£25). Quite a difference between the UK and US and nothing to do with fuel.

[Hoverman]

1 If you're right things must be very different in Oz. A newbie with a shiny new CPL here would be very lucky to get another job in the UK. What's he got to offer an employer? Check out the advice in loads of threads where newbies with low turbine time ask how to get a job. Advice = build hours and get as much turbine time as possible or employers and insurance companies won't be interested.

2 True

3 The entire time spent flying you are less than 2 seconds from death. You're not a Robbo fan then?

4 In the UK the FI doesn't pick up the bill for damage to the machine. Maybe different in Oz.

And thousands of FI's across America go to work every day and do all this for $20-30 per hour. I hope they don't see your post. :D

[Whirlybird]

I've followed the arguments but nobody's explained yet why helicopter FI's should be paid a higher hourly rate than F/W FI's.[

You've got this precisely backwards, and you obviously don't read the Instructors' forum. Virtually everyone there is agreed that f/w instructors should be paid more. They absolutely cannot make enough to live on. For that reason, you don't get any PPL career instructors. At many schools, they are all low hours hour builders aiming for the airlines. A lot of them don't really want to be there, and won't put themselves out for the students; not all, but some. It's even been argued on a recent thread on the Instructors' forum that they SHOULDN'T bother too much, since they're paid a pittance. There are discussions as to how to increase instructors' pay, since it's so obviously necessary. The only people who can live off f/w instructing are those who specialise in something unusual like floatplanes. The general standard of teaching in the f/w world reflects this. Do we REALLY want to emulate them?

People are confused by the STATED hourly rate. Instructors are NOT actually paid £30-40 per hour. They are paid that per flying hour, and each flying hour includes another hour for helicopter moving, checks, paperwork, and briefings. Most schools book each hour lesson within a two hour slot for that reason. So the actual pay while working is usually about £15/hr for FI(R)s, £20/hr for QHIs. Is that really so high? It's lower than virtually all professionals, and lower than most plumbers, builders etc. It includes unsocial hours, weekends, and is dangerous. If it wasn't that we loved flying, we wouldn't do it.