Racist Saa

[KASAC 7]

I am rather surprised that nobody has picked up on the latest debacle at SAA in this forum! Seeing as they have run out of "previously disadvantaged" crew to recruit, they have now started employing foreign crew from other African countries. Isn't this unconstitutional? It definitely is discrimination on the basis of skin colour! Why is the union so quiet about this?

[SortieIII]

Hi Kasac 7 - Do you have any facts to back this up? There might be pressure to recruit from other African countries, but I have not seen any evidence of it actually happening. As far as I know, the current recruitment policy does not allow this? Give us some more info please.

[126,7]

Don't they own shares in a number of small carriers, or would be carriers all over east Africa? Maybe those governments are forcing SAA to recruit some of their pilots. Tanzania and Uganda probably supplying the majority of new crews.

Am typing under correction here!!

It makes sense from a business point of view. These new guys would probably have a license already and there is no need to train ab-initio students from the previously disadvantaged group. Much cheaper.....

[dejidip]

We in NIGERIA have been made to understand that SAA is bidding for a share in our national airline ,it stands to reason therefore that South Africans wolud be employed in addition to Nigerians if this works out;And be informed we already have over 350 South African pilots both flying fixed wing and rotor driven aircraft here even when some Nigerian pilots were unemployed.So please relax take it easy and be accomodating Africa for Africans is good enough.Tne 2 biggest mobile telecommunication companies in Nigeria are proudly South African and a quarter of thier workforces are South African[MTN/ECONET] cheer up maybe you,ll soon be flying in NIGERIA Good Luck:8 :O

[126.9]

Nicely said Mr dejidip! That racist paranoia is starting to wear a bit thin for me too! The one thing I know about SAA is this: If you're qualified, you pass the selection and you're in! I did! If you fail the selection, don't blame SAA; take a look in the mirror! Otherwise, why the hell shouldn't a qualified Nigerian be allowed to apply to SAA?

[KASAC 7]

I think you guys have missed the point! There are many suitably qualified people in SA who are now being overlooked and not even given the opportunity to attend the selection process. I am a firm believer in the best man for the job, but I draw the line when I don't even get the opportunity to compete for a job in my own national airline because foreigners are being employed just because they happen to be "non-white." I have heard of a number of people that fit into this category who have been offered jobs, one being a Zambian who was flying a B1900 in Botswana. He started about a week ago.

[dejidip]

Sorry KAS the shoe doth hurt on the other foot too just keep trying you are supposed to be advantaged except for affirmative action.Dont give up ill pray for you or come over to Nigeria lots of aircraft to fly,and not enough pilots.And lots of your guys here anyway come build some time and become more marketable

[Warlock2000]

A policy designed to redress past discrimination against women and minority groups through measures to improve their economic and educational opportunities.

MINORITY GROUPS! :mad: :{

Anything else is simply REVERSE RACISM...

[Gimbal]

:confused: Kasac7...those are pretty rich comments coming from one who is building time in another country,namely Botswana.

Anyway...as requested before, please substantiate your accusations with facts, because as far as I know apart from the cadets the only 'previously disadvantaged' pilots hired by SAA constitute less than 20% of the total hired so far...and I won't even go back more than two years. Nowadays its easy to blame the recruitment process and AA, when one doesn't make the grade, its seems individuals are becoming blameless. (By the way there are also cadets who don't automatically get into SAA after SAX or Link, theres one who I know of who didn't make it past the final interview, I wonder who he blames, most definitely not himself I'm sure.)

There are lots of SA,British,American, pilots at Cathay, Emirates etc. but as soon as an African pilot chooses to become an expat, all hell breaks loose, and the whinging erupts, why is that? When will things change?

[dejidip]

Very well said GYM you could not have put it any better,KAS just dont give up it always gets better GOOD LUCK

[Tango24]

About passing the few that battle.....Ask a training Capt if he's ever had pressure from the top to pass someone who was not up to scratch, but was a different gender or another colour? It happened in the Defence force.

I don't think that we can deny the fact that affirmative action is not evident, but there is a little room for it, as the previously disadvantege did take a back seat for a while. However the process should be dealt with to ensure that safety is still the top priority.

The best person for the job should be hired, but don't look down upon someone because of gender or colour.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Just my two cents worth:

There are lots of SA, British, American, pilots at Cathay, Emirates etc,

Yes, there are. There is also NO local supply of pilots in Cathay and Emirates either. If Cathay could, they would hire as many qualified pilots as applied. As it is, they are actively recruiting cadets as fast as they can (about 30/year) - not bad, considering the 60 week, AUD250 000 course. Before you sound off about mainland Chinese pilots, quite a few (Hong Kong) Chinese mates have tried, in a previous life, to get jobs with China Southern, Eastern, Northern and others and have been rejected as "foreigners".

Why should SAA be hiring expats (African or otherwise) when there is a vast supply of qualified, experienced, motivated local pilots in SA? Oh yes, I forgot - they're white.

[KASAC 7]

Thank you Capt Underpants for clarifying the point I have been trying to make. Unfortunately, something about this thread has pulled Gymbals chain and he finds it necessary to attack me personally. To set the record straight, yes I am building experience in Botswana because this was the only place that I could get a job due to my low experience level at the time. However, in Botswana the employer has to prove to the labour department that there are no suitably qualified citizens for the job before they can employ an expat. I don't see that happening with SAA! If you want the real evidence, why don't you just ask SAA management and hear it from the horses mouth? It appears that Gymbal is already sitting pretty at SAA with the nice fat salary, and has forgotten what it is like to be battling along at the bottom trying to make it to the top.

Let me also point out that I don't have a beef with the guys from Africa who are being employed by SAA, I would do the same if I was in their shoes. My beef is with SAA who are employing these guys simply to add black faces to the flight deck and meet their quota, at the expense of the rest of the suitably qualified crew who are citizens!!

[orgasmotron]

I agree KASAC. Gimbel must be at the honeypot already. He refers to guys not making the grade of being sour. How can he be so sure we are not making the grade when we have not even been invited to interviews ? Of course we will be sour.

I am under 35 years, with 5000 hours with 2500 on medium jets plus Europe experience, ATP, instructor rated etc. Prospective colleage of mine who failed sim in Europe now with SAA. How is that for making the grade ? This was when Europe still tolerated us with EU passports.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the SAA guys, but there are a few of the SAA guys that firmly believe they are a cut above the rest and are not shy to say it either. These guys spoil it for everybody.

SAA is a proper airline with new equipment, excellent training, high standards and a lot of true proffesionals working there. (And they pay the best). Of course we all dream of such o job. The job stability compared to other airlines is also great.

The problem everybody is on about is not about the pilots, they are normal crew just like the rest of us. Its about the politisized upper management.

After years of applying at SAA without even an acknowledgement of an application, I have finally given up trying. Will now take my chances without SAA.

All I can say to the rest of you oaks, keep trying. I still think SAA is a great company to work for, if you can get in.

[GormanInkarnati]

Blatant reverse discrimination and racism - that is what it is!

Do we not have a Bill of Human Rights that guarantees all citizens of this lovely country that they will not be discriminated against based on colour, race, religion etc.?

Is the AA policy of the ANC above the Law?

And while I am busy - all you greedy moonlighters out there, realize that there are hundreds of unemployed Com Pilots out there who are batlling to find a decent job. STOP IT!!!

GI

[Gimbal]

Firstly, please guys do bear in mind my intention is definitely not to attack anybody(I would merely like to give a view from the otherside of the coin,otherwise this would just become an SAA bashing thread), I know from first hand experience whats it like on the other side of the fence, (as well as waiting patiently for that ever evasive call from recruiting), persevering until I got the opportunity to fly out my dream, and mind you I too spent hundreds of rands on numerous CVs before I got in (with thousands of hours). But one needs to also accept the hard truth, an AA canditate does have the upper hand in the interview room today. But as little as 10 years ago many of the guys who've posted replys above, too had the upper hand. When an individual of colour or even one of our females (always a pleasure having them around too, contrary to popular belief) for example wished they could one day fly Imps, mirages or maybe (heaven forbid) pumas, the then SAAF gave a blatant NO! nomatter how educated or enthusiastic they were. So this is just a small way in which SAA can right the past wrongs, by giving the offspring of these unfortunate individuals a slightly greater advantage in the interview room. (mind you every single canditate does go through the entire interview process fairly, with no pressure on the interviewers, and a beady eyed SAAPA rep present too).

Anyway I still don't see what all the fuss is about, after all, out of every 10 pilots hired by SAA only 2 (if that many) are AA candidates, the only place where theres a real difference, is during the cadet selection process. And today the most senior cadet has only been at SAA for +- 6 years. The only reason Kasac7 and others are finding it miserable/difficult is because all of his competition wrt getting in , are guys just like him, those whom have had a previously advantaged disposition, and have now flooded the market.

So how many AA pilots from outside the cadet course has SAA hired in the past 5 years, maybe +- 10 ? 'Ja', you say, 'but there aren't any guys/gals available to fill those slots...' Then I say, whats the whinging about? Because in those years almost a hundred new pilots were employed, so your chances were pretty much the same as it was in the 'bad ol' days'. And now you say
its not a question of not making the grade, but a question of reverse racism??

There are white guys at SAA who are about 2 years senior to me even though I started flying before them ( the reason being, I joined the SAAF and therefore took the scenic route). If it makes you feel any better!?

So things are not as bad as you may make it seem, lots of my white SAAF buddies (who were in the SAAF a year ahead or behind me on pupes course) have also atained that so called 'honeypot' which someone has so elloquently put, because they (just like me) didn't give up when the going got rough. So give the system a chance, you'll probably find that it might work for you.


"As it is, they are actively recruiting cadets as fast as they can (about 30/year) - not bad, considering the 60 week, AUD250 000 course. "- quoted from Capt.Undies...

Can you imagine the outcry if SAA started doing what Cathay is...putting a guy in the right seat with only 200 hours!!

(I will definitely shoot a cat !!! :ooh: :ooh: )

[Cpt. Underpants]

Hi Gimbal

Thanks for the sensible reply.

So how many AA pilots from outside the cadet course has SAA hired in the past 5 years, maybe +- 10

One day (I hope not) you may experience that "+- 10" numbers can mean 3 or 4 years longer as an F/O...

Cathay is...putting a guy in the right seat with only 200 hours!!

Not really the case. On average, the cadets spend 4 years as S/O's with at least 500 hours per year, and then have a sim session every four to six weeks. The ones that do pass muster (and it's not easy) are more than adequate. I fly with them on a regular basis, and yes, I have had some scares, but no more than the frights I have had with some of "D/E" S/O's from GA in SA, UK, Canada or RPT in Oz.

Hand on my heart, I would truthfully say that while some of them do lack handling skills, how would you have done in the right seat of a wide-body at "200 hours"? If memory serves me well, you would have just had those bright new wings pinned on your No. 1's and be reading the Part 1's for you next posting! Our cadets are also way ahead academically of their D/E brethren, and truly know the systems and procedures.

On a final note, we have about 12 (and counting) for cadets who have just made command - no slack was cut on the course, I assure you. And no, they don't have any restrictions on who they fly with!

[Gimbal]

:O Hi Capt. Undies....

Do you seriously reckon 2000 hours as an SO really counts for anything. Maybe the sim sessions add to ones experience, but one can't really log SO hours as flying experience surely. I certainly felt a bit reluctant to log third pilot hours in the front of my logbook,(but one has to I suppose). So in my humble opinion (and its only an opinion) I feel that a pilot should not use third pilot hours as a claim to fame , i.e. saying Ï have 2000 hours wide body time." To me he/she still has 200 hours (of which 70% was flown with an instructor in Addelaide! ).

Also as far as I can remember, airlines such as Emirates don't even look at your P3 time.

Anyway at the end of the day we sure as hell aren't flying Buccaneers low level (although I wish I was), and I'm sure its our academic skills such as knowledge, procedures etc. that get us out of trouble in a large commecial airliner, and not our Biggles stick and rudder skills. So maybe the Cathay guys have got it right...? I dunno, you tell me.

:confused:

[dejidip]

HEY GUYS enough of all this brouhaha,step out of SA and cross multiple borders to NIGERIA jobs are beckoning and theres a shortage or be patient SA will soon begin a recruitment drive if it gets lucky and wins the Nigerian jointproject said earlier it can only get better.ciao

[Kiwi Flyer]

I keep seeing "Reverse Racism" mentioned in this thread.
There is no such thing.......Racism is Racism! Its just PC drivel! Look in a dictionary at the definition of Racism.

Just a point, cos it really annoys me!!!:mad:

KF

[126,7]

Hi K-Flyer
How about Neo-racism??
Just kidding:}

[George Tower]

July 16, 2003 - 16:01
First Black Female Trainee Pilot Completes Training


South African Press Association (Johannesburg)

SA Airways' first black female pilot trainee moved one step closer to her dream after she successfully completed her multi-engine and instrument rating training, the airline said on Monday.

SAA spokesman Rich Mkhondo said in a statement that 23-year-old Asnath Mahapa already held a commercial pilots licence when she entered the company's cadet pilot training programme level two, which caters specifically for people from disadvantaged backgrounds.

"She is now in the final stage of completing her airline transport pilot subjects.

"Mahapa joined South African Airlink last week Monday (July 7) where she is undergoing training for conversion to the BAe Jetstream 41, a smaller aircraft which carries about 30 passengers and is flown by SA Airlink at smaller airports.

"The training will take place in the United States. Upon her successful completion of this conversion course, Mahapa will become a first officer on the Jetstream 41."

Mkhondo said Mahapa would have to train for a minimum of three years and accumulate 1500 hours of flying before she could acquire an airline transport pilot license and command an aircraft.

He said it was envisaged that Mahapa would spend about three years with SA Airlink, where she would gain the necessary airline experience prior to becoming eligible to be employed by SAA.

SAA's executive vice president for operations, Johan van Jaarsveld said: "SAA would like to congratulate Asnath on her achievements so far. We are looking forward to her entering our pilot group as SAA's first African female pilot."

Mahapa was also nominated as woman of the year in the science and technology category as a result of her achievements, van Jaarsveld said.

http://www.amanjordan.org/english/daily_news/wmview.php?ArtID=2022

Stumbled across the above whilst searching for something else. What interests me is the part which says "SAA spokesman Rich Mkhondo said in a statement that 23-year-old Asnath Mahapa already held a commercial pilots licence when she entered the company's cadet pilot training programme level two, which caters specifically for people from disadvantaged backgrounds. "

I was always under the impression that SAA cadet had to have no more than 60 hours when applying - and it appears that this lady has a CPL. I wonder if anyone can clarify as it appears SAA have broken their own rules here.

[KASAC 7]

I would say that by now everyone in SA is familiar with the term affirmative action. What I don't understand is how Gymbal equates expats from other African countries with AA? They can hardly be classified as "previously disadvantaged" by any stretch of the imagination! So lets focus on the real issue here. AA is something we have all had to live with since 1994, but employing the foreign nationals under the guise of AA is not on!!!

[Skaz]

Howcome this lady pilot can enter the cadet program with a COMMERCIAL LICENSE :confused: when the rest of the applicants cannot apply with more than 40 hours?

Maybe she got a Cpl and still building hours:} :mad: :yuk:

maybe me slow, but dont get it:*

[gofor]

Hiya All

Gimbal, anti Cathay and pro Emirates?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cathay is...putting a guy in the right seat with only 200 hours!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also as far as I can remember, airlines such as Emirates don't even look at your P3 time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So where do the EK cadets go after their Adelaide stint as they have had numerous courses there and only just enterd the real long haul market very recently with the A340's??

We also all know emirates are increaseing their fleet by one (or is it two) a month to double their fleet by 2010. Just where do you think all the pilots will come from.

Also some Cathay drivers (expats) might be slightly upset if you call them inexperienced as many of the CX boypilots (sic) have many hours, big jet, command time.

Just a thought.

[George Tower]

This thread has turned into a bit of mine-field as there several issues all running in parallel here.

Getting back to the title of the thread "racist SAA" I think it's quite a complex issue. Here's my two-penny worth albeit through the eyes of a British person that chose to make SA my home.

Should SAA be running a cadet scheme - answer yes. I believe that it is good that previously disadvantaged people can have this career option open to them. However what I object to is the political window dressing that goes on with these things.

Lets take the example I quoted in my previous post:

First of all she already has a CPL when entering the cadet scheme - SAA specifically limit their applicants to having a maximum of 60 hours so what is so special about this applicant that the rules get broken?

Next how disadvantaged is she - to have obtained a CPL before entering the cadet program. She or her family must have had a minimum of R100,000 to support her so in most people's eyes that is hardly "disadvantaged".

Next she is up for an award "woman of the year in the science and technology category" - I'm sorry but Amy Johnson and Emelia Earhart were doing their trail-blazing long before most (if not all) of us reading this thread were born.

Most people that are struggling to make a career out of flying have to struggle against the odds to get where they want to be. They read the article I posted and immediately they resent these cadets. That's a problem as they could be decent people and decent pilots, but because of SAA's overtly political postering a rift is created. Hardly a good thing. Most of the non-white cadets will have to carry the mantle of not being thought good enough by their colleagues which again may not be fair or accurate but trumping up such facts like this press release did simply adds fuel to this fire.

As for SAA recruiting people from other african countries specifically on the basis of them being black - that is racism, and therefore wrong.

I actually believe that in this day and age that no restrictions should apply as to the nationality of pilots so long as they have the qualifications and meet the company's requirements. I think it is hypocritical for SA pilots to fly for Cathay etc or to build hours abroad and yet to be unimpressed with foreign nationals getting jobs in SA. There are many Australian, South African pilots in the UK and yet we don't have a shortage of pilots as some people would like to suggest.

PS one last issue - 200 hours and a F/O position. BA an airline with one of the best safety records has been doing this for years, although not post 9/11 due to the economic down turn.

[afroair]

Apparently the Lady Pilot in question is not currently FLYING at S.A.AIRLINK..............

[126,7]

Most European carriers have co-jos with around 200hrs. They come straight from their own internal flying schools with a Seneca rating to the right seat of a B737-300 to 900 etc or A230s. Seems pretty safe considering the statistics.

[skyvan]

My understanding of the Second Tier Cadet scheme is that it is there to provide a leg-up for the previously disadvantaged, who, even though they have aquired a CPL, may be battling to get a job. Even though you may not like the fact that some people seem to be being advantaged, the reasons behind the helping hand is not so much SAA's, as SA's. The SAA PR machine, while being remarkably blind to the "okes what drive the aeries" normally, are quite quick to raise the profile when the policies agree with the current government ideals.

Potentially silly comparison, but why little or no noise about the way Comair and Nationwide suddenly found a group of female pilots acceptable when the AA deadlines loomed, and no cadet schemes had been put into place. (yes, I know that Comair now have a cadet scheme in place)

As to resentment against the cadet pilots, sure, there will be some, the same way that civvy trained pilots resented the "boys in blue" who swaggered around at airshows.

But once you are in the airline, those resentments should not be allowed to colour your judgement about anyone. Whether you are ex-cadet, ex-civvy, ex-SAAF, whatever, you are there to do a job, the past is not important. Do the job, preferably well, that is what you are paid for.

For the guys waiting for a chance to get in, all I can say is "Keep trying" More than just a few of us were on our third or later interview before cracking the nod, and there were preferences being exposed then (in those days it was "which squadron were you in?" ) I do think that at least now, more than ever, the opportunities for pilots to move and fly around the world are better now than ever before. You may not get a job flying for SAA, but then, you may not marry Britney Speers!!

Last comment, I believe that all the "foreign" pilots still have to comply with SA citizenship, and SA CPL. How they get around that is between them, and Dept of Home Affairs and the SACAA.

[White Knight]

GOFOR:

Just looking through the EK FOM (Flight Ops Manual) in the section regarding minimum hours for command upgrade - Chapter 3 page 15 -

P3: Is defined as operating with another airline as a second officer, or as augmented crew, or as a systems panel operator.

And - 25% of P3 or FEO time may be credited towards total time, up to a maximum of 1000 hours.

Hope that clarifies:cool:

[Gimbal]

Nice post SkyVan...we need more people like you and less whingers who always seem to feel sorry for themselves.;)

[gofor]

White Knite - I understand your point, but where do the EK cadets then go after Adelaide. Your FOM also mentions the hours required for "command upgrade" not FO! So if there isn't any more to add - you too could have a 200hr FO? Thats if P3 time does not count or a 1200hr cojo??

[Jangys]

Nigerians should stay in Nigeria, too many Drugs lords here already....

I applied for chance at SAA, but they told me from the start that my skin is the wrong colour.

My CV was put on a pile that was marked, "White applicants"

What da @#$%@ does that tell you, buba...

Africa here we come.........

"God has left africa a long time ago"...Bruce Willis

:mad::mad: :mad: :{

[gofor]

Janguys,

Your quote reminds me of an American president when asked on why they don't intervene in african atrocities during the Croatian thing (Ruanda was pretty hot then). His reply :

quote " Africa is for the Africans".

Pretty much of no one is going to help us unless we help ourselves. Nevertheless even if it goes on the whitie pile - hey at least it is on the pile - you will hear from them and eventually supply does meet demand and I hope all those who qualify meet their dreams. I know a few who were called into saa this year who did their first interveiws 2+ yrs ago. Holding thumbs!!

[Jangys]

Gofor

Yes, I hope you re right boet, Im also holding thumbs.

:ok:

[Fluffy flyer]

You all miss the point here, it is indeed so that they stopped "them" from buying their licenses, so tey can't find valid pilots. The ones that was chosen to go on training can't get up the mast. Saa have never take in direct first officers, about 3 months ago they advertised in the sunday times for experienced first officers to fly with the "exelerated" commanders (reach for a dream children). They want to make these persons from aba-netio to captain of a jet aircraft in only 5 years. It took up to 10 years for the "normal" pilot to get command. SAA is STUFFED UP!!!!!!

[Gimbal]

:yuk: Fluffy flyer, you obviously get your int. from the same people that our friends Tony and George do !!

Get the facts before you decide to throw your toys out the cot.:mad: :mad:

[George Tower]

Gimbal

Or may be you wear the same rose-coloured glasses as Mr Mbeki when he looks across the Limpopo......

Seriously though I feel that many people will feel agrieved at the amount of political interferance there appears to be with recruitment in SAA. As SAA is a state owned company it would seem right that they were open and transparent in all aspects of their operations, however there seems to be so much smoke and mirrors and political spin put on everything they say in public it is very disconcerting for pilots low down in the food chain.

[V1 Rotate]

I actually feel sorry for the recipients of affirmative action privlege. Because even if they are very good pilots they will always be labelled as having gotten where they are simply because of their politically correct appearance.

I think it is very unprofessional for SAA to keep moving the goal posts so much to suit those whom they so obviously favour!

V1 Rotate
:cool: :cool: :cool:

[jominnaar]

.....may the best man win!;)

[Rhodie]

I know the thread is getting old now - but, just to add my two cents...

I personally know of a "previously disadvantaged" FO, who since his return from Oz, has used his three year allocation of sick leave, plus all annual leave (in debit), who has missed flights and caused stand-by crew to be called - and absolutely ******-all has happened. No reprimand, no warnings, no fit in or FO, nothing...

Why - politics, that's why..

Daddy is connected, everyone is too sh!t scared to say boo because the cry of "racism" goes up faster than a bride's nightie..

Previously disadvantaged - my a$$ - Iv'e worked my butt off to make my house and home, and all I see are so called PD's laying waste and still putting the blame on "the illegal regime etc.etc."

23 years down the line, Mugabe still does it, so what's stopping S.A. doing the same.

Until (unless) S.A. moves from 3rd world, starts being accountable for itself and not allying blame, starts putting the 'best person' in the job, and not the 'quota' person - then we will continue to be left behind and viewed as a hand-out and beg continent. :mad:

Damn, where are my pills.... :{