View Full Version : Pilot incapacitation

E cam
11th Mar 2002, 03:55
In my company, F/Os are banned from taxiing. In case of the old fart in the left seat dying, they are told to land, come to a stop on the R/W, apply the parking brake and wait for a tug. To taxi off the R/W is not allowed. . .. .Do your company have the same rule?

11th Mar 2002, 04:32
I can see your thread getting moved to a different forum in the not too distant future!. .Nevertheless you've got to be joking! Let's say said scenario occurs who the hell decides captain is clinically dead and cannot be revived? Could your airline be running the risk of legal action? i.e. said captain could have survived if only FO taxied to the stand where medical attention is likely waiting?? Personally if my other half 'cream puffed' it in said manner and doc's said they could've been saved I'd shaft the airline concerned silly for every possible penny-and I ain't American! If I'm not mistaken this 'FO doesn't taxi' keeps insurance down? . .. .BUDGIE <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Norman Stanley Fletcher
11th Mar 2002, 04:48
From a UK-based A320/1 operator:. .. .Every sector, both pilots (Capt or F/O) have a complete role reversal (tech log completion, walkround, FMGC loading, pushback and taxiing. There is no job an F/O or Captain cannot do to the same standard of proficiency as the other. Obviously the Captain is usually more experienced than the F/O but both guys are expected to be up to speed. The only limitations come on weather (Capts may take-off down to 125m vis but F/Os have to have 650m. Also crosswind limits for F/Os are 2/3 of the Capt's) . .. .It works well, and the issue of whether the F/O is up to the job of taxiing simply does not exist.

11th Mar 2002, 04:54
The right hand tillers were removed from our Tristars after delivery. Took several years before they were reinstated again.

11th Mar 2002, 05:49
There are still some airlines in Europe where the First Officer is not allowed to commence a take-off/rotation.

11th Mar 2002, 06:25
I know a case where the captain passed out on final approach ,but it was the (training)FO leg and he landed safely ,he was trying to get the plane of the rwy by using the pedals - the plane was a 737 - still on landing "run" and stop on the taxiway when the capt. came around again. The company do not allow FO to taxi. The capt. passed out due to kidney stones (if you ever had that once you know how it can be so sudden and intense that you may pass out in pain).

Ford Airlane
11th Mar 2002, 10:50
After one such incident where the "old fart" (as you put it) kicked the bucket mid flight, there was much questioning amongst the other captains in the bar that night as to how the F/O managed to land the plane all by himself. Meanwhile, the "hero" F/O was asked by another F/O, "Good job on getting it down by yourself, but how could you tell he was dead?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

11th Mar 2002, 22:30
Our SOP's allow the FO's to do everything, taxiing, engine start,RTO, LOVIS T/O and no limits on landing such as airports and x-wind. But we do have some a/c without dual tillers, in that case we are instructed to full stop on the runway in case of incapacitation even though on the 73 it's absolutely no problem to take a high speed taxiway using only the pedals. But if you've never done it before it can be tricky.

12th Mar 2002, 06:05
As a captain I could care less about what happens when I'm dead. But the FAA rule is that the F/O would be in charge if the captain becomes incapacitated; and as such he could declare an emergency and exercise his emergency authority, remove the captain from his seat and land and/or steer and taxi the airplane from the left seat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

Capt Claret
12th Mar 2002, 07:00
Shouldn't the F/O cross the deceased Captain's name of the Seniority List first? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Pat Pong
12th Mar 2002, 07:49
Track - either your company is not JAA compliant and/or not aware of JAA regs.. .JAR state that the a/c commander MUST perform the takeof when LVP's are in force ie. less than 400m RVR.. .. .Norman Stanley Fletcher - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">There is no job an F/O or Captain cannot do to the same standard of proficiency as the other.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">- wow - hopefully a badly phrased sentence. Otherwise, a supremely arrogant and/or ignorant statement from someone who really doesn't comprehend the complexity and requirements of the job. In all good faith I hope it's the former!!

12th Mar 2002, 08:20
From the NTSB website:. .. .On June 8, 1996, at 1100 mountain daylight time a Lockheed 1011-385-1, N11004, operated by Trans World Airlines, Inc., as flight 840 from Los Angeles, California, to New York, New York, notified Denver ARTCC that the captain had apparently suffered a heart attack. The aircraft landed without incident at Denver International Airport, Denver, Colorado. There was no damage to the aircraft and no injuries to the 12 crew members and 190 passengers. The flight was operating under Title 14 CFR Part 121 when the incident occurred and an IFR flight plan was filed. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed.. .. .According to information provided by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), approximately 30 minutes into the flight, the captain began experiencing chest pain. The flight diverted to Denver, Colorado, where the first officer made an uneventful landing and the captain taxied the aircraft to the gate (the L-1011 has no nose wheel steering on the first officer's side).. .. .The captain was transported by ambulance to Aurora Presbyterian Hospital, Aurora, Colorado, where he was seen by emergency physicians. According to emergency room records, he had no history of cardiovascular disease. He reported he had been experiencing intermittent retrosternal chest pain since the previous day which was becoming more continuous with radiation to his left jaw and left arm. The clinical impression was chest pain with possible unstable angina, Although his electrocardiogram (EKG) was normal, and was inconsistent with acute myocardial infarction. He was admitted to the critical care unit in stable condition and transferred to a medical floor.. .. .The 56 year old captain had his last physical on May 20, 1996, with no pathological codes present. He had no significant medical history and took no medications. He had approximately 18,000 hours total flight time, approximately 1,100 hours in this make and model aircraft, 57 hours in the last 90 day, 35 hours in the last 30 days, and 2 hours in the previous 24 hours.. .. .He has since been released to the care of his personal physician.

13th Mar 2002, 14:13
Great management CRM ! You can fly but you cannot taxy?

13th Mar 2002, 20:34
I,m a Captain and I totally agree with Glueball. I've flown with F/O's who have just come the turbo props and they do a perfectly fine job of landing and takeoff. So why such a scepticism of the F/O's landing and taxing specially in an emergency.

Willit Run
13th Mar 2002, 20:56
In my little ole company, the ops manuel says only captains are allowed to taxi the aircraft, that soon will change and its for the better! However, most of our captains allow the F/O's to taxi, because it realy is no harder than any other phase of the flight, and anyone who thinks so, is just plain full of themselves.. .How is the F/O supposed to get experience if he never gets the oppurtunity to do these things that are considered dangerous or hard? What a great time to figure these things out when you've just been released from IOE on your first captain leg!. .There are many captains that have F/O's who have 4 times the experience than the captains, but are in the right seat due to furloughs, and seniority issues. Just cause your the captain, doesn't mean you have the most experience or talent.

E cam
14th Mar 2002, 00:29
What I'm wondering about is.... .. .1. What if the incapacitated captain dies through lack of medical attention whilst waiting for a tug?. .. .2. What about the other aircraft needing to land on that runway?

Hew Jampton
14th Mar 2002, 02:04
Things a co-pilot needs to do when the captain dies or becomes incapacitated:. .1. Note the time - from now on you can log it P1. .2. Amend the seniority list. .3. Wear his epaulettes (unless you keep a pair in your bag for just such an eventuality, on the basis of a field marshal's baton in every private's kitbag). .4. Call the cabin crew to help get him out of 'your' seat. .5. Amend your allowances claim for the captains' rate. .. .Can anybody think of some more?

16th Mar 2002, 00:44
Although it was 6 years ago it still a very saddening to think about the fate of this guy.. .. .Aircraft Type and Registration: Boeing 757-2T7, G-BYAM. .. .Injuries: Commander died during or shortly after the flight. .. .The AAIB report is here in full, I'm sure some of you guys probably flew with the poor fellow.. .. . <a href="http://www.aaib.detr.gov.uk/bulletin/apr96/gbyam.htm" target="_blank">Commander died during or shortly after the flight</a>. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 19:46: Message edited by: Fraudsquads ]</small>

16th Mar 2002, 01:50
Does the F/O get to log PIC time?. .. .MJ

Ignition Override
16th Mar 2002, 11:33
Fraud Squad: Thanks very much. The report is very interesting and educational; will leave a copy in our pilot lounge. . .. .Ford Airlane; another good point about deciding what the medical condition is. Once, an interview question at a regional airline was to find out if you, as Captain, after hearing from a crewmember that a passenger has a heart atttack (could be severe heartburn from spicy food etc, or an old lady who only wants personal attention-it happened and the plane had barely enough pavement to stop in ATL etc), would now divert to a very short runway (or maybe near crosswind limit etc). There is often no perfect decision, but many lives are on that plane. Should not the Captain give the FO the plane and ATC while he/she consults with FAs?. .. .Can European and other foreign airlines contact a physician while inflight and help determine a passenger/crewmember's condition? Here in the US, we can pick up a Flitefone from a passenger seat and dial a certain code (i.e., *---) in order to contact the Mayo Clinic, in case no medical personnel are onboard.