West Country ATCO recruitment question

[ATCOJ30]

Honest info/views sought please: we have a super new Tower, absolutely excellent kit (inc. daylight viewing screens, superb RDPS/comms etc which actually work) plus very fast-growing commercial traffic (180-210 scehdules/charters a day) and a complex ATC environment, guaranteed to give job-satisfaction. Lovely part of the SW UK to live in too.

So, the question I pose is this: why do ATCOs from NATS or from the larger UK non-NATS regional airports apparently consider us (and maybe other ATS Providers in this situation?) a less-than- attractive place to seek their ATC future? I'm certainly not denigrating those ATCOs who work at other non-NATS units - we've all earned the same "yellow book", after all and almost every ATSU has its professional challenges of one sort or another - but we feel that experience of working at a comparable airport in Class A/D is very important when we recruit. (yeah, I know, everyone has to start somewhere, even if they work their way up the career ladder over time...)

I can obviously guess at some of the reasons for the lack of interest amongst many ATCOs: airspace (or the lack of it); salaries; retirement age; pension etc. That said, are their some misconceptions/myths going round the market-place? I'd welcome the views of NATS ATCOs and perhaps those at the busier non-NATS regionals (EGNT, EGNX etc) on this issue, if you can be bothered to respond. I also have a strong feeling that the much-talked-about UK ATCO shortage will be in evidence quite soon. Any thoughts on that, anyone? Nothing held against future applicants, I promise: this is purely for a bit of research.... many thanks.

[j17]

ATCOJ30

Unless your employers can improve significantly on the re-numeration package that Nats and other ATCOS at busier non Nats units are offered,why should we consider uprooting our families to work at your unit. At the end of the day, what you take home at the end of he month and how you have had to work for it is the deciding factor

[Special VFR]

You are going to have to go some to encourage people out of NATS. Salary and prospects are very high on the list and a distrust of current private airport operators, and let's not forget the pension scheme. From what I hear there is going to be a considerable shortage in the non-NATS world. Market forces will dictate pay.

[Chilli Monster]

Another thing to consider is 'life sequence' as it were.

If you're looking for like experience from the self improver line then the chances are they're going to have family considerations.

They're probably half way through paying off the mortgage. The children are probably approaching early teens. End result - they're not going to uproot the family if they've got GCSE results of the progeny to consider. Once they've got through that trauma then it's uni and the costs involved, or, they're divorced, still paying for the kids and don't want the hassle of extra expense through moving.

It's not just the professional side of the problem you're looking at, but personal circumstances. Most people after all work to live, not live to work.

[flower]

Opportunities regarding progression, chances of taking further professional qualifications, the back up of a larger company behind you.
The knowledge that the government is still a safety Net in NATS unlike other ATC providers.
The chance to move into Area Control if you so wish, and pay and pension.
Would I give up voluntarily working for NATS ....NO. In spite of all its faults we still know that the grass is not greener outside ,in the UK at least that is.

[Scott Voigt]

So ATCOJ30;

Just where is the west country airport???? Outsiders with a couple of years before retirement could be interested. We get to retire with 20 years on the boards age 50 or 25 years on the boards any age... I'll be 49 <G>...

Scott

PS, what does it pay.

[flower]

I am taking a guess here but sounds remarkably like Bristol Lulsgate ;)
Wow Scott, do they let you stay on in a non operational position?
Experience in ATC is of to much value just to retire it off so early.

[vintage ATCO]

Blimey, I'm into my 36th year. They've got to let me out soon!! :{


VA

[ATCOJ30]

Scott - that's a regional airport in the south-west of the UK. Top of the radar scale (after 4-5 years service) is approx £47K (about US $80K). Supervisors are on about £50K (US $83K), plus a few bits and pieces for Examiner- and On-the-job-training-instructor qualifications. Our retirement age is 65 but youy can go at 60 if you have the years in (40 years max for a half-salary pension).

[Standard Noise]

Still, anyone who has been in the NATS training system for 7 or 8 years before validating will always sing it's praises. After all, one wouldn't want to "shoot oneself in the foot" as it were, by running down one's employer in public.

NATS is a madhouse and as ATCOJ30 says, we've all earned the same yellow book (5 ratings in my case, originally), it's just that some of us didn't get the further training opportunities that others did. It took me a few years to figure out that I should have worn more lippy and nail varnish!:}
Nowt wrong with non- NATS, especially if you get the opportunity to work at one of the busier regionals ( and it's busier than it's nearest NATS neighbour).

Come on over and try it Scott, sunny Somerset is ever so nice and so's the beer, and so's the cider.:E

[Special VFR]

ATCOJ30

That's more or less NATS ATCO3 pay. So why would anyone move from NATS to your airport? NATS retire at 60, the CAA Pension scheme is a good one and, for all their faults, NATS are a fairly safe employer. There also other places to go in the empire and earn more if the new WP comes in.

If there was a downturn in traffic at your airport where would management look to save money first? The top earners??

[niknak]

In addition to other comments made, it's also one of the most expensive of the UK to buy a house if you're moving from anywhere North of Bristol.

But, perhaps, more importantly, Bristol has been through several owners over the last few years, and although perhaps the present incumbants have done more than the others to make it an attractive place to work, there's no guarantee to anyone joining that it will not be sold again and that they may be out on the street, as has happened in the past.

Your H.R department does you no favours, I've never applied or even been attracted to do so, but I know atco's who've met and exceeded all the pre requisites of advertised posts, and they've never even had the courtesy of a reply to an application.

[almost professional]

J30
of the last six arrivals at egnx, four came direct from NATS, and one from NATS via blackpool-though the pay and conditions seem to be similar to yours, we seem to have gained a reputation as the non NATS unit to join-can not think of any reason why that should be-has Bristol gained a rep' as a place not to apply to as we did in the 1980's? its not somewhere that the controllers here get itchy feet for when adverts appear-but again its nothing solid that you could point to as a reason!:\

[360BakTrak]

Can anyone get me a job at NX or GD?!?!?!?!?:D

[matspart3]

Oi...360....NO

My office 5 minutes

[Scott Voigt]

Flower and ATCOJ;

Thanks for the info... I do love it out there... I've visited many a time with my wife. She also enjoys it there, but I have to confess and will probably get knocked for it, she does prefer Scotland <G>.

For more info to you, we are forced out of active ATC at age 56. We can try to find a staff job if we want to stay on but those are not in great abundance. For those of us on the older civil service retirement, we as previously stated are fully vested with 20 years on the boards ( staff time not included ) and age 50 or 25 years on the boards any age. After 27 years of service ( my five years of military time counts towards retirement computation.) our retirement pay goes up by 2% a year from the base of 50%. So if I were to go when I was eligeable <sp> I would be 49 years old with close to 30 years of govt. service. If I stayed a few more months I for the 30 years, I would get 56% of my base for retirement. I expect that I am going to stick around for a couple of extra years to pay off the house though.

The folks who are under the newer FERs system which is a stock plan which I won't go into get 2% a year over 20 years. A better deal, but they don't get the 50% after 20 years. They get a lesser amount along with the stock money...

regards

Scott

[Razors Edge]

Why the stipulation for CAS? This surely cuts down on your applicants. Many talented controllers work outside CAS through no fault of their own. How can the known traffic environment of CAS be any harder or more complicated than working outside where traffic can just pop up, call you out of nowhere and without warning? RAS is in essence no different to RCS and indeed is harder to practice.

As far as improving your package, I would suggest you re-instate the final salary pension, check out the latest pay scales at NATS and EGNX and buy half a dozen decent properties nearby to rent to new staff at cheap rates.:ok:

[Not Long Now]

Some of us in NATS would love to move out to the country, but the vast majority of us (90% or so in the last dozen years) only have an area rating. OK we once had a tower ticket, virtually never used, but unless you were one of the select few who were lucky enough to do an approach course, how many employers outside NATS provide an area service?

I suppose we could leave NATS, pay for our own approach course, and renew our tower tickets, but all of a sudden it's not sounding so appealing...

[flower]

Razors edge perhaps i am miss reading your post or you have seen something different in the original post question than myself.
If this is EGGD we are talking about they have a very small control zone, not adequate at all for their needs and all aircraft to and from Bristol have to be vectored outside CAS.
Both RIS and RAS can be very complex at times in the vicinity due to many fast military aircraft flying around the whole of the region.

Standard noise i am saddened by a couple of your comments, i don't actually think anyone was making any adverse comments against EGGD at all just stating why we were unlikely to leave NATS. Whilst there may be a few NATS ATCOS who take many years to validate the vast majority of us hold our own Yellow Book reasonably quickly, again that shows that NATS also realises that sometimes people need longer to get there but still after all the investment they have put into the student they are willing to give the individual an opportunity to succeed. There are some cases which are questionable but the vast majority who take longer go onto make a valuable contribution within the company.
As for the rather sexist comment
:mad:

[Barnaby the Bear]

I would go anywhere, provided someone wants to sponsor me to do the Approach course. A valid ADC only licence seems to be somewhat restricting to future career development. :{

[Standard Noise]

flower - Where I come from, we are blunt and speak as we find, so I make no apologies for any comments that I make. I'm just more than a little hacked off by the attitude which pervades NATS that those of us who work elsewhere have little else to do all day than sit about twiddling our thumbs. Go to any party or outing where everyone else is from NATS and all you will hear is how miserable they all are and what bad people the NATS management are. If there's one thing NATS ATCO'S are good at, it's bitching about their lot! Then in public (ie here) the attitude changes and suddenly NATS is the all wonderful entity.

Bristol is the third non-NATS unit I've worked at, and by far the busiest. OK, the pay scales may not be the highest, something the management need to take note of, but it's not all about money, if you want to be rich, go be a mortgage advisor.

As for my sexist comments, I know of more women in NATS who have got what they want than men. If you really want, I'll give you some examples, but by PM only. I may be blunt, but I'm not a complete s**t.

[360BakTrak]

Standard Noise.........WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[ATCOJ30]

Many thanks indeed for your comments, everyone who's posted: Not sure how (why?) the original theme of this post seems to have been side-tracked into other issues, mind you... Whatever has been said, relations with the NATS near-neighbour in Wales are PDG, I'm very pleased to say. 4 Cardiff ATCOs from the "opposite" Watch at a recent Bristol ATCOs retirement "do" is testimony to that.

As I suspected, the significant points seem to include Ts & Cs; cost of housing (surely it's an even bigger problem if you're posted to EGLL/KK/SS/ LACC or TC?); career development opportunities; job security; ADC/Area Ratings limitations and family ties - schools, working partner etc. Still not sure how EGNX has managed to attract the attention of former NATS ATCOs in such numbers though in recent years, unless the Ts &Cs are so much better than ours'? Maybe there's a perception too about the "big airport" scenario and operating within CAS? That said, take a look at the relative passenger figures and you'll see they are not so far apart: 3.5 - 4 million each, both pushing 5 million in 2004, and growing fast. Not much chance of a long-sleep on nights there either, I'd guess?

As for ATCOs with experience of Class A/D, it's indicative to me that those folk have probably worked at one or more of the UK's commercial airports perhaps, and may have experience of mixing IFR/VFR (in Class D). I readily accept that someone may have worked in an equally challenging environment from an ATC viewpoint (and worked harder too?) at a busy GA or military aerodrome in Class G (EGBJ, EGTK, EGKB, EGVP, EGKA come to mind). In our case, as Flower rightly says, there is the matter of providing RIS/RAS to 180-200 IFR "biggies" a day in Class G, of necessity, which some find more troubling to cope with than others, from experience. Having intensive military ops/gliers/balloons/GA so close to the small CTA/CTR boundaries is a good game to play but then we're not unique in that, I'm sure...

Scott - on your next trip across the Atlantic to the UK, come and pay us a visit. Same goes for any other ATCOs/ATSAs/pilots reading this who fancy an hour or three at Bristol (there, given it away now...)on a liaison visit: you'll be made very welcome indeed. An e-mail or a phone call will be fine with a couple of days notice.

[Special VFR]

Whoa!, Standard Noise and BakTrak, it's not our fault you are not happy with your lot. I think what's been said is that, warts and all, NATS are OK to work for and not something to give up lightly and move out into the unknown and unpredictable private sector. As I said earlier, given a downturn in the market, who gets dumped first? The high earners, that's who. Maybe.

and leave flower alone.

[Scott Voigt]

Hi ATCOJ

I'll try to take some time to come visit the next time over. It will probably be a few years though. Was just over in the UK in Feb. ( had a bought with the shingles too <sigh>) and was not to far from you as I was visiting with cousins and an Aunt in Newport, Wales. Same cousin is going to come visit us in another five months.

regards

Scott

[Eira]

To Standard Noise and 360 baktrak.
If someone in my family annoys me I will moan and whinge about them but low betide anyone outside of my family who has a go at that family member as I will defend them totally.
The same goes for Company loyalty, I work in NATS and thus can legitimately have a good old whinge or moan , I make it a policy of mine not to criticise other units be they NATS or not, I do not have the inside knowledge to back up any arguments. I certainly have inside knowledge though to make complaints about my company and my company is also big enough to take those complaints on board. Very seldom do they act upon them but at least I know i can say what i like within all the normal reasonable parameters without fear of retribution.

I am quite frankly appalled by the derogatory comments made about females, i thought such comments had gone out with the Ark but it seems there may still be few out there not living in the 21st Century. Everyone of course can cite cases where someone has got away with things, I can however cite more men than women but that is simply because there are more male ATCOs than female ATCOs, should there be a 50/50 split i am sure things would even themselves out.

We are supposed to be a profession I wouldn't expect to hear such blatantly sexist comments from fellow professionals, be they NATS or non NATS

[360BakTrak]

I wasn't agreeing with the sexist comments, whatever they were, but with Standard Noises other comments. Having worked for both NATS and non-NATS units Standards statement seems to be fairly accurate.
Special VFR - Who says I'm not happy with 'my lot'?

[Bright-Ling]

Ignoring the waffling abuse above...

It is quite smple. As said, there is no serious guarentee of a job for ever. However, there is far more job security within NATS.

Also - whilst we bitch and moan about pay, it is not THAT bad within NATS compared to externally.

At least one who left NATS from LHR Twr (18months ago) went to EGNX beacuse they offered him an extra £20k or so IMMEDIATELY!! (He was on the bottom of the scale) OK - it might not top off so high, but nowadays when you want to buy a house people understandably take the money and run. East Mids area is considerably cheaper on the whole than Bristol, is it not? Same story for the guy who left for Leeds I believe.

With regards to moving house, in NATS we are very fortunate with the housing relocation scheme. What would you offer me by way of remuneration if I was to return to my home town?!?!?! :)

To be honest, apart from the fact that I would want to work at a prosperous airport for job security, I don't really give a stuff about pax numbers/tonnes flown in or out and movement numbers if I was selecting an alternative location.

I for one don't get up at 0530 for any other reason than the dosh. Sad but true!! If you can exceed what I have let's talk!!! :)


:O :O

[aluminium persuader]

ATCOJ

If you are who I think you are we grew up in the same town, although we didn't know each other then. I applied for a job at GD a few years ago but didn't get it. I would still consider working there, however I'm working overseas at the mo. The guy who did get the job at the time, though, I heard left very soon after starting and although I haven't directly asked him why, I did hear something to do with internal politics, which made me wonder.
That said, I'm sure no-one would write it off without looking more deeply, & I've only not re-applied since because of family circumstances.
I agree with some of the other posts - despite the management wrangles, NATS does provide a nice warm feeling in the security dept. The pay ladder raise every year plus whatever else, also promotion etc.

There y'go!

[360BakTrak]

The successful applicant from the july 03 interviews subsequently decided to go to Canada, but that aside, was offered an extremely good re-location package, probably on a par with NATS! Although Bristol itself is expensive, if you're willing to drive half an hour to work you can get a lot of house for your money.

[almost professional]

bright-ling
I would be very suprised if the ATCO in question (who is on my watch) gained £20k from us just for coming, the situation is normally open to some negotiation on spinal points-but my colleague was lacking radar experience (mind you he has taught me a few things about going for gaps in tower!):O

[Gonzo]

"When I was at Heathrow, we did..............."

;)

[Bright-Ling]

Are you suggesting that Mazda boy is a liar!?? He said he was getting £150k, ne whouse and a new MX5.

Git!

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/direct.gif

[goddammit]

ATCOJ30

I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR STONG DESIRE FOR NATS ATCOs. FEW WOULD HAVE EXPERIENCE OF RAS/RIS IN A SIMILAR ENVIRONMENT, ELECTING INSTEAD TO FOCUS ON THEIR 'PRIMARY TASK'.

THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF BRISTOL GETTTING A REPUTATION, THAT MAY BE WELL DESERVED OR YOU MAY HAVE FALLEN FOUL OF THE RUMOUR NETWORK.
YOU HAVE STATED A NEED FOR THOSE WITH RELEVANT EXPERIENCE, BUT THE ADC POST A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO APPARENTLY WENT TO AN APPLICANT WITHOUT CLASS A OR D EXPERIENCE DEPSITE SOME APPLICATIONS FROM INDIVIDUALS WITH CAS EXP.
OVER RECENT YEARS A NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN ACTIVELY ENCOURAGED TO APPLY ONLY TO BE REJECTED WITHOUT ANY FEEDBACK.
YOUR HR DEPARTMENT ARE ABBRASIVE TO APPLICANTS SEEKING INFORMATION DURING THE DRAWN-OUT APPLICATION PROCESS, UP TO 5+ MONTHS.


THERE ARE A NUMBER OF VERY ABLE ATCOs AT NEARBY AIRFIELDS THAT WOULD CONSIDER A POSITION AT BRISTOL A GOOD CAREER MOVE AND WOULD NO DOUBT REPAY THE OPPORTUNITY WITH LONG TERM LOYALITY. OKAY, SOME ARE EX-NATS FOR ONE REASON OR OTHER BUT THAT'S NOT UNCOMMON OR A BAD THING. (HOW MANY OF YOUR CURRENT ATCOs WERE ONCE A NATS SUCCESS STORY??!!) AND THEY'D COME WITH THE BENEFIT OF LOCAL KNOWLEDGE, INC THE CHANGE OF PROCEDURES WEST OF MALBY.

iF YOU GET ENOUGH NATS ATCOs WILL YOU BE EDGING OUT YOUR CURRENT WORKFORCE? OF COURSE NOT, THEY'VE PROVED THEMSELVES. GIVE SOME OTHERS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY.

[Bright-Ling]

STOP SHOUTING!!!!!http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/soapbox.gif

Anyway, I don't think that he was exclusively after NATS types, just asking what it would need to lure one out!

As for NATS ATCO's not doing RAS/RIS, here are "some" units that do, often in complex airspace and frequently...

Cardiff
Farnborough
Luton
Essex Radar
Thames Radar
Gatwick Radar(occasionally)
Birmingham
Edinburgh
Aberdeen
Glasgow

(apologies if I have missed any!!)

B-L

[goddammit]

Your just having a laugh now!

Birmingham are very selective, and why not, their not lars.
same goes for luton.

Farnborough do an excellent job, as do aberdeen

[Bright-Ling]

At least making you laugh stopped you from shouting!
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/Cartangry.gif

B-L

[Belzebub]

I really don't see why Bristol have such a problem recruiting- I would love to work there, I dont want to leave the area, Im not near retirement age, its a fantastic working environment, but they don't appear interested as I only have ADC/APC (no Radar). I have also tried offering self-sponsorship - where am I going wrong?

[Standard Noise]

Have I upset some of you? Oh well, c'est la vie. Can't please everyone! But as I have said, I speak from my own experience of working for NATS. It was a bit of a kick in the teeth to see some who got 3rd and 4th chances in NATS while I was kicked out after only getting a half chance.

Incidentally, 3 months before my contract was "terminated", my 6 month old niece passed away after a short illness and the week I was leaving, my terminally ill mother also passed away. I was told that another position would be sought for me at an airfield in the NATS group, only to be kicked while I was down. Had it not been for my friends, I may have lost it totally. But no, one of those friends put in a word for me at a non state unit and things slowly got better. That in a nutshell is why I have no particular love of NATS.

As for the world outside the asylum, I have enjoyed myself immensely in the last 8 years. My first two units were great fun and enjoyable places to work, but my current unit is not only an enjoyable place to work, but also busy enough to hold my attention for many years to come. Oh, and I didn't have to pay a penny towards the move either, bargain.:ok: Life's too short to worry about your mortgage and house prices.

Come and live in sunny Somerset, it's great (as far as living in England can be!)

BTW, special vfr - who said I wasn't happy with my lot? It certainly wasn't me.

PS I also do recommendations.........for a fee!;)

[Evil J]

bright-ling

I assume this is your usual fishing for a reaction, but I can assure you I took a pay cut to leave Heathrow (only equivalent to London weighting, but a cut non the less), had I stayed I would be on far more now than I can ever hope to earn up here. But as many people have pointed out thats not the point. I've just bought a house for 70K ,15 mins from the airport, I can eat breakfast whilst doing GMC, I now have a radar ticket and a met certificate (and am on an OJTI course in the new year)

And i can't vouch for other non-NATS employers but I feel my job here is far more secure than any more aerodrome job in NATS(and I certainly feel far more valued here as a member of staff than I ever did working for NATS).

And I can assure Gonzo that almost professional has no shortage of "when I was at Luton...." stories!!!

[aluminium persuader]

360bt -

The recruitment I was referring to was a few years ago.

Bright-ling -

Essex? RIS & RAS? You what?!

;)

[Bright-Ling]

Evil J... Got ya!!

how's life up there???

AP....

Essex radar...... mmm typo ..... sorry!!! :)

[vintage ATCO]

And I can assure Gonzo that almost professional has no shortage of "when I was at Luton...." stories!!!

And I can tell a few stories about AP! :E :E :E

:D

VA

[ATCOJ30]

Nice to see I've provoked a lively discussion, then...

As I said in the original post, this was purely for a bit of research and nothing else. With a number of retirements pending over the course of the next few years, it's always useful to know where the next bunch of ATCOs are likely to be coming from. From my viewpoint, I've never said that I only want to recruit ex-NATS ATCOs. Had I done so, there would be a lot of empty seats...that said, I'm not in the game of putting bums on them just for the sake of it.

The experience issue is valid. Many of you who read this will be only too aware that in days past (?), some non-NATS regional airports ATSUs had a reputation (deserved or not) for being somewhat parochial: "We do it like that here, son, and that's the way you'll do it" etc etc. Many non-NATS regionals have a very static ATC workforce and that's not always an entirely good thing. I would suggest that with NATS, there is probably a healthy combination of experienced ATCOs and new starters at most units as ATCOs from other units get posted and newly-qualified Cadets are posted-in. At least, that's the way it looked to me when I worked for them.

The policy of recruiting/sponsoring internally from the ATSAs on my unit has been hugely succesful but does little to introduce additional experience of life/procedures/ideas/practices at other ATSUs. It's potentially very expensive too if you have a failure at college- or unit-validation stage and a limited training budget, not just in terms of money but also in time.

Having an operational input from someone from "outside", NATS on non-NATS, with relevant (and I make no excuses for using that term again) experience can make a very positive contribution to the way a unit runs and works, I believe. I come back to the word "relevant" again. Sure, if your total ATCO compliment is comprised of 40%, sponsored ex-ATSAs, you may be able to happily add a %-ageof ex-military controllers, a %-age with ex-GA-only backgrounds and a %-age with experience at an aircraft manufacturers ATSUs, for example. Wouldn't it be advantageous though, in an ideal world, to also add a sizeable number with comparable or busier civil, commercial airport backgrounds, to preserve some semblance of balance to the team?

Don't listen to rumours, either - many of our team will dish-the-dirt on me to your face, or on the phone! Thanks again to all who've been bothered to post. Much appreciated.

[almost professional]

and some of them might be true Steve! ;)

[Spiney Norman]

Whatd'ya mean, 'some of them'!!!! :)

[letMfly]

ATCOJ30

Why not headhunt at Aberdeen. A poster in their restroom several years ago boasted of all the units which they had supplied with "highly trained ATCOs". They included Newcastle. Teesside, East Midlands, Heathrow, Stansted, Southampton, Honk Kong, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Manchester, Leeds, Prestwick, Dunsfold, Bailbrook, Mastricht, Gatwick, Bahrain, Jersey, Bristol (briefly), CATC, Scottish and London Centres + many others. I hear that they have a surplus of ATCOs now, so it may be worth sniffing around if your package is big enough (so to speak!).

letMfly

[boynefly]

ATCOJ30 - Steve? And I thought it was Julian?