Sorry, same good-old topic of speed restrictions below 10K

[greg1]

Asking about what is legal here, not likeable or preferred or practical or safe. Reading all and especially http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/012947.html, it is my understanding that speed limits below 10 in uncontrolled airspace are not for ATC to lift, no matter what. I am particilarly interested as to what applies in the US. Any moves in Europe?

Thanks to DEFPOTECI know about the Texas (class B) restriction lift at ATC discretion (http://web.wt.net/~iahi90/250.htm). Has this been applied anywhere else in the US? Any problems?

Cheers

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(Th)ink Rate! Don't (Th)ink! Don't (Th)ink!

[FooFighter]

Greg,
Summary from the UK Manual of Air Traffic Control:

The 250kt limit does not include:
1. Flights in Class A or B
2. IFR flights in Class C
3. Flights in Class C and D when authorised by ATC
<Some other stuff>

Importantly:
1. ATC cannot relax the 250kt limit for traffic leaving a "known traffic enivronment" such as Class A and entering F or G where primary separation method is see-and-be-seen.

2. In E, F & G ATC cannot relax the 250kt rule.

Hope this is of use.

Cheers
Foo

[askcv]

Both LAX and ANC air traffic give clearances for departing airplanes to exceed 250K by using the expression "Cleared high speed climb". If they want you to maintain 250 they will say "Maintain normal speed". I don't know what authority they have to do that, but they do it anyway. If you question them they tell you to use "pilot discretion".
I have noticed though that many pilots do not understand the difference between the calls.

[West Coast]

Askcv
I would be very carefull about exceeding 250 based on the phraseology you have recieved. Controllers cannot authorize you to do(HOU being the exception). This is well established within the ATC community, not as well known outside. I have no doubt that was the phraseology you recieved, and it was probably the controllers desire that you do so. My guess is it provided him an operational advantage. Of course should anything happen, it would be denied. If a climb in excess of 250 was authorized/desired by ATC, the phraseology used wouldn't be cryptic.

[askcv]

I feel the same way, and I accept the higher speed if I am overwater (outside 12 sm or about to be) but having flown these routes with three different Asian airlines, I have seen limited knowledge of US rules and procedures. I have asked the FAA in LAX to clarify the matter with the airlines concerned but they will not do it. If the controller tells me, unprompted, to maintain "High Speed", I will take him at his word and I can hardly blame a pilot whose first language is not English for doing the same. It may be well understood what is meant by US pilots in the US, but I know the FAA controllers are aware that the many foreign pilots who fly into the US are not so knowledgeable. It also does not help that the US is the only country that does not allow the controller to permit higher departure speeds. Perhaps if the US followed international rules this confusion would go away.

[Prof2MDA]

Having operated out of ANC and LAX for many years now in widebody heavy aircraft, I have to say that I have not heard the expression "cleared high speed climb" at either location, but I am pretty sure that if they do say that they aren't meaning what you think they are.

Many of the heavier aircraft require climb speeds in excess of 250kts. Although aircraft are not required to request clearance for those higher speeds, many pilots do so as a common courtesy. I would guess that ATC is anticipating that and just saying that they know and approve of the higher speeds. Unfortunately, the meaning is different in other parts of the world, so I would not be surprised if some aircraft are climbing at much higher speeds.

The statement "normal speed" means just that, and does not restrict you to 250kts if you require a higher speed. The only thing that will do that is the statement "maintain 250 kts".

[askcv]

You are right, I have a letter from the FAA confirming that "normal apeed" means just what FAR 91.117 says; an airplane needing to climb at, say, 280k does not need permission to do so since it is the "minimum safe". Many pilots, not aware of the rules, request "High Speed" in order to fly above 250 for this reason and ATC will often volunteer this permission without it being asked, by using the expression "Cleared Normal Speed".
But lately at LAX, and usually at ANC, I have been given "Cleared High Speed Climb" or just "Cleared High Speed". This without my asking for it.
If the ATC guys do not mean what they say, they should stop issuing such clearances, since most of the pilots hearing this will respond in accordance with their understanding of the English used.
Either that or the US authorities should switch to ICAO procedures...Now that's a thought!

[West Coast]

As far as switching to ICAO regs... the airspace re-classification, then METAR/TAF. You may get your way if your willing to wait.

[Iz]

Well airspace classifications were a hell of a lot clearer to me in the US than over here in Europe! :)

"The speed is yours" is what we usually hear over here. Probably not standard phraseology but it works for me.

[West Coast]

I was under the impression that the airspace classifications were the same, or nearly so. Going to have to do a little studying.

[Iz]

They're more or less the same in terms of classification, but you won't find the American-style Class B or C or D airports. Airspace is just cut into blocks here and given a designator which determines the restrictions, VFR/IFR limitations, seperation et all.

[Zeke]

Its is common to be given a ATC requirement to use max speed on descent, and to "cancel speed restrictions" on the star in Australia.