Pacific Blue & Rishworth

[von Mises]

I started this new thread because the other Pacific Blue threads seem to have deviated off course.


I spoke to XX at Rishworth and he indicated the following regarding Pacific Blue:

1) The initial group of pilots would need to be available (NG rated) by 5th Jan 2004 for the Feb start.

2) Recruiting to be in three batches of 30 pilots, closely spaced.

3) They were hoping to negotiate a bulk deal for the 5 day NG differences course in Seattle normally around U$7,000 (plus airfares and accommodation). He thought they might be able to get it down to U$5,000.

As has been pointed out before, since there are not currently any B737-800’s on the New Zealand register, you cannot put the endorsement on your New Zealand Licence yet.

If anyone was confused by the appearance of Pacific Blue on the pilotstaffCV.com web site, it was a mistake. Contract Aircrew Services are handling the Flight Attendants not pilots.

I was told that the Virgin Blue people are currently looking over the applications and will shortly decide on who to invite for an interview (they will need to get their act together if pilots have to be NG rated by Jan).

E.T.A. are putting together a differences course which I’m told should be ready by Jan (perhaps not early enough for the first batch of recruits?) It will probably be considerably cheaper than the US option. Of course, it will have to be approved by the NZ CAA, which is the intention.

It has been suggested that there were about 700 applications for the PB positions. I would imagine that most of them would be from unrated potential F/O’s. I don’t think there are many NG rated Captains or F/O’s around with significant experience who would be interested but there could be a few Classic rated guys who would be prepared to pay for a differences course. Apparently Jetconnect are having trouble finding enough experienced 737 guys and keeping them (it seems a significant number are heading off to Cathay and elsewhere).

I understand the PB pay will be slightly less than Jetconnect, but an NG based in Christchurch might be enough to entice a few blokes over.

I’m also told Jetconnect are opening a Christchurch base in addition to Auckland and Wellington, mainly because they were worried that they would loose pilots to PB if they didn’t.

Anyone else got anything to add?

[HabibBro]

Yeh all still sounds like a super deal - who could turn down the offer to pay $30-40K get ya NG rating just for the amazing chance of an Interview with a bunch of kiwis. Giddy up dingos go knock their door down!!!:\

[von Mises]

HabibBro ... thanks for the intelligent input. It's always a pleasure to hear from people of your intellectual calibre ... next time don't bother.

An NG or even a B737 endorsement is not required to get an interview with PB.

The differences course would cost around A$7,000 to $A10,000 and a full B737 endorsement about $25,000 I'm told.

I’m not sure what the point of referring to them as a “bunch of Kiwis” is but it’s hardly relevant.

It may be a good stepping-stone for some.

If it’s of no interest to you … don’t apply … simple.

[Beer Can Dreaming]

A good friend that operated around Europe/Japan for years on contract made it quite obvious that these Aircrew Recruitment companies typically take something like 25% of the paid wages for themselves as a commission!

He also indicated that the reason companies use their services is because they are typically disorganised and havent quite got their act together.

Surely VB in Brisbane would be able to co-ord recruitment for Pacific Blue and save themselves a heap of money in the process.
Hey - the money they save they could pay to the pilots!! (Na,fat chance).
Also when it comes to an NG differences course they have some expertise in this area rather than leave it to this recruitment company who will no doubt attempt to profit by it.

[Groaner]

Doubt that Virgin with their low-cost attitude would allow a recruiting company to take a 25% cut, you can be sure this would have been bargained very hard. I suspect probably to be below 10%.

And that might be the gross margin - usually the agency has to pay for insurances and payroll handling costs. Plus deal with the applicants (and Virgin...!). Not necessarily a gold-mine.

[von Mises]

BCD

I have heard that Rishworth (and other recruitment companies) are not exactly the most enlightened employers on the planet and I am not sure what the reason for using them is (I can guess though). Does anyone have any first hand experience with them that they could share? A 25% cut is pretty steep if that's true.

It may only be a short term relationship to get the airline up and running, does anyone know?

I understand that VB currently have to send their pilots O/S to do the differences course. One of their pilots runs E.T.A. (Endorsement Training Australia) and as I mentioned they are trying to get a differences course approved by January 2004.

I'm not sure if the recruitment company gets a kickback on the training or not. If anyone has any info on this let us know.

[Australia2]

Von,

Jobs can only be considered a "stepping stone" for so long.
Most guys just seem to seek fair pay for a job well done, this does not seem to be the case anymore.

[MoFo]

So Jit Connict are having trouble keeping pilots on those pay rates. Well ****** me. I wonder why.

No doubt the uniform is blue singlet and shorts with tattoos, just like your average long haul truckie.

Just a stepping stone to a real job.

[von Mises]

MoFo

Jetconnect are a wholly owned Qantas subsidiary (the uniform is the same as QF ... as you probably know).

You may be surprised to learn (I was) that several Jetconnect pilots who left for "greener pastures" in Asia obviously decided that money isn't everything and reapplied to go back. One of the reasons that Jetconnect et al can get away with paying such low salaries is that they happen to be based in highly desirable locations. The Asian carriers on the other hand have to pay through the nose to get anyone to move there and even then often have trouble keeping them.

JC and PB etc know full well what is going on and they are prepared to wear the high turnover and associated costs in the belief that it is to their overall advantage. They pay low salaries because they can, not because they are greedy. If they are wrong they will suffer the economic consequences and it will serve them right.

When I buy anything at a shop or elsewhere it never enters my mind to offer to pay more than I believe I have to. Has anyone reading this ever offered to pay more than the asking price for goods and services because they thought they were undermining the wages of the staff of the competition by paying the lower price. I seriously doubt it.

The higher paying carriers are no different. Does anyone really believe they pay higher salaries because they are generous? They pay what they believe it is in their best interest to pay, not a cent more.

The only serious argument (on pay rates) I would have with the low paying carriers relates to the assumptions they make as to what will ultimately be in their best interest. In other words I believe they have underestimated the ultimate cost of higher pilot turnover. It's an economic argument not a moral one. Perhaps I'm wrong, time will tell. In any case I do not have access to the data that would enable me to make such calculations, my belief is based on my own experience and observations of business and my understanding of economic theory. It's their call and right or wrong they have made it.

If JC, PB etc have enough trouble getting and or keeping suitable pilots they will be forced to improve the remuneration they offer. There seems to be some indication that this may be starting to happen. We shall see.

To those pilots considering a so called "low paying job" I suggest you ignore the snide remarks emanating from some quarters and make your decision based on what you believe is in your (and your families) best interests. Only you can know the relevant circumstances.

In any case, you can be sure that the people attacking you do not have your (or your families) best interests at heart, they are looking out for themselves (regardless of any protestations to the contrary).

[borg]

If you want to fly for a budget carrier its of coure your choice, but don't ever complain about the pay, conditions or about doing to much flying.
You have forfeited this right when you signed on the bottom line.

For those who argue it's just a stepping stone where do you intend to go? CX,EMRATS etc. These great companies have thousands of applicants and they don't just wet themselves because you have a bit of jet time. Think about it.

[DustySlim]

von Mises, agree with you on your commment regarding 'low paying jobs' and life style descions.
Im an NG rated captain and have been flying round europe for the past 5 years and I am seriously considering a move to Kiwi land. PB and JC are obviously aware that there comes a point where money is not the most important factor. Yeah you could work in HK for a big carrier and earn a $h!t load of cash but I dont want my kids growing up in that sort of enviroment.
Give me a nice aircraft based in a nice town and yeah i'll take less money.
For all those who think that there are no experienced type rated drivers around who are looking to repatriate, come to the uk for a holiday and see for yourself.

[wandrinabout]

Good balanced post there Von, not saying I neccessarily agree totally, but good points all the same..........

Now down to the nitty gritty - Salaries/Package.
Von, you say salary slightly less than Jet Connect. What is the JC deal? Or even better, do you know the actual package for PB?

Maybe an easier way to answer - are the figures that have been quoted so far correct??

Thanks.

Ps I for one I know my situation better than anybody. I know what lifestyle means. And I know what I need to meet my/our requirements. So no advice required on rights or wrongs thanks.

[von Mises]

Borg

No body forfeits any such thing when they join any airline. They and anyone else can complain to their hearts content and we are just as free to ignore them (and probably will). I'm sure they don't expect any sympathy (which is just as well).

For many, it is a choice between not flying at all and flying. Not between a low paying job and a high paying job. I'm sure they would welcome such a choice if it ever presented itself.

I used to fly for a 'top tier airline' and there was no end of complaining there. Often about the pay but mostly about the attitude and perceived lack of talent in management. I'm sure the lower paid pilots elsewhere thought we had forfeited our right to complain when we accepted our well paid jobs. We didn't of course but they had every right not to listen to the whinging.

DustySlim - you illustrate one of my points very well.

Wandrinabout - The Jetconnect pay is as follows (from the PilotStaffCV.com web site):

1) First Officers:

NZ$55,000 (First Officer with less than 500 Flight Hours on a B737-300 or higher), or
NZ$66,000 plus a NZ$9,000 Retention Supplement (First Officer with 500 Flight Hours or more on a B737-300 or higher).

2) Captains:

NZ$110,000 plus a NZ$15,000 Retention Supplement.

In addition the telephone and dry cleaning allowances all Flight Crew also receive a Daily Travelling Allowance (DTA) of NZ$3.20 per hour or part thereof from sign on to sign off whilst away from home base.

I am still trying to get confirmation of the PB salary. The best guess at the moment is a few thousand a year less than JC.

[Gnadenburg]

von mises

Can you cut the stepping stone crap?

As pointed out , airlines such as EK have thousands of applicants due the proliferation of crap outfits like PoohBlue.

Airlines have upped their requirements to type endorsement and widebody experience because of the dime a dozen nature of 737 pilots.

What does annoy me is blokes like yourself a few years down the track-as witnessed by the moaning of VB pilots-who have made their bed and now refuse to lie in it. This affects the conditions of professional pilots in good soild operations that pay a fair wage and invest in the professional training of their people!

Virgin Manilla next-oxymoron I know-with an international arm to encompass Pacific expansion and undercut "expensive" NZ wages.

[Thump & Go]

Anybody know of applicants who have got a response from Rishworth? Heard someone claim to have got an e-mail from them 2 days ago and was told F/O salary would be NZ$70K + NZ$4/hr duty pay. Any truth to these figures?

[Winchester]

Interim salary details;

Captains: $115,000 p.a.

Snr F/O’s $74,000 p.a. (those with B737-3/4/5 & NG experience).

Jnr F/O’s $69,000 p.a. (direct entry with type rating only).



All will receive $3.20 per hour duty allowance.

LOL insurance assistance up to a maximum of $1,200 (depending on age).

[stillalbatross]

From talking to Jack "Bombay Sapphire" P many many moons ago they get a set package from the airline and it's up to them to assess the market and then pay what they want. Pitch too low and the high turnover upsets their customer, the airline, pitch too high and they don't make any money and may themselves not get the contract from the airline. So you assess the market and go from there, which is why they hold out for so long to get a feel for the market before deciding pay scales.

If the market is going to be weak for say the next 5 or 10 years then they could pay say 45 and 75, really lean on the lifestyle angle in NZ as a selling point and possibly fill the contract. They'd be pocketing maybe half the contract and they'd risk loosing people to Parc etc. Would it be worth it? People forget they're a business, they're not an offshoot for the social welfare that helps pilots get work..........

[Misty Air]

I know a couple of the handful of Kiwis flying for VB and they aren't giving PB a second thought,I wonder why:D

[Whiskery]

If you're dealing with "Captain" Jack, make sure you get EVERYTHING in writing before committing - especially the remuneration.

[Maisk Rotum]

Interviews in about a weeks time but we still haven't decided who will attend..................................

[Plas Teek]

Gossip on the ACARS has it that VB/PB tried at the last minute to get out of bed with Rishworth for some reason (possibly $$) but the ink had already dried.

They did manage to get the F/A's out or not involved with them.

As someone said earlier, get it in writing.

Good luck to all.

[Tape It Shut]

Does Rishworth have the resources to handle the PB crew selection process? My dealings with them suggest they are out of their depth with the numbers of applicants.

[bahboy]

I strongly agree with Australia 2 and Gnadenburg,
Having an abundance of 737 time does not make alot of difference to your overseas job prospects.
If you think getting into VB or PB will be a stepping stone to another major international carrier think again,as there are plenty of very experienced pilots on the hold file with companies like EK,that have wide body,heavy jet time.
If your thinking that Australia is the only place that aviation is at an all time low,then take a look at Europe.plenty of unemployed jet jocks there too.
Using EK as an example,they have plenty of wide body,heavy time guys on the hold file,many of which,are from Europe.
If there were a lot of job opportunities for 737 experience elsewhere there would'nt be any unemployed Ex-Ansett guys.

[Sheep Guts]

Well maybe the fact that Differences course has come down in price. Will make a difference. I am asking a question? Someone said ETA is revising its differences course. Are they still using the GECAT sims in Honkers?


Sheep

[von Mises]

ETA are not revising their differences course (they don't yet have one). They are creating a differences course.

Andy expects it to be approved by January. He also expects to be using the Qantas Sim. Rishworth say this won't be soon enough for the first batch of pilots. They will have to do the differences course elsewhere, most likely Alteon in Seattle.

I stand by my assertion that PB may be a good stepping stone for some pilots. The implication that B737NG time is essentially worthless or detrimental to employment prospects is of course nonsense. It won't guarantee you a better job but it will certainly help in that quest. You won't help your cause by avoiding B737NG exposure.

A step up from PB doesn't necessarily mean a leap to CX or EK, they aren't the only decent carriers around nor the only carriers that would be a step up from PB.

Yes, the pilot employment scene is crowded at the moment and there are only limited places available at the prestige carriers. For some of those that miss out there, PB may well be the best they can get. If anyone knows how such people can stay in aviation and improve their personal situation by not taking a job at a discount carrier, don't be shy, let us all know. You could probably make a fortune selling the information.

Regards, von Mises

[CT7]

Any idea when ETA might get the almighty and most likely costly tick from NZ CAA?

[Gnadenburg]

Victor Mike

A regional airline would be a stepup from PoohBlue.

Good luck mate, honestly, it just seems very tragic the deterioration in conditions of airline pilots.

A little secret. A few years ago, plus or minus a few years, everyone "made it" to airlines. The pay fair and most securing their retirement at the stage where current players seem to be going into debt to finance endorsements.

And who else apart from CX and EK a step up from Pacific Blue?

What do you think a hundred Pacific Blue applicants(and a hundred QF Impulse crewed applicants) will eventually do to the above conditions?

[Al E. Vator]

Gnadenburg...very good points, wholheartedly agree.
What worries me is this subservient, "Upstairs Downstairs" thinking of 'thank you M'Lord for even looking at me' mentality being exhibited by so many pilots and in some of the statements from Von Mises (sorry, that's considered criticism Von Moses, not like the first one).

This lickspittle attitude is a natural result of competition for jobs as there are in Aust/NZ more pilots than jobs. However this is not the case globally. LCC's in Europe (Ryan and Easy for example) employ newbies and stepping-stone types but they rapidly get paid not too badly - because demand for them is greater than supply.

The much rumoured global pilot shortage may well be on the way but I think it will be a long time before it filters through to Aust/NZ. It was happenning before Sept 11 and is now starting to slowly creep in again.

Globally, basically nobody is taking up aviation as a career, there are many older pilots retiring and the airlines are planning major growth (just look at Emirates and their 45 A380's). Basic laws of economics must prevail and the LCC's will suffer hugely unless they up salaries significantly, and that includes the Virgin Blues and Jetconnects of the world.

Aus and NZ are not too bad to live in (if you look past parochial thinking and the taxation) but there is so much more out there to do. The thought of relentless NZCC-NZAA or YMML-YSSY shuttles personally bores me to tears, but that's just my thinking.

Rather than all this forelock-tugging to employers, why not get out of NZ or Aus, get overseas, expand your cultural and mental boundaries, learn languages, bless your children with cultural knowlege (oh don't live in Pommyland then) and experiences AND potentially earn a fair whack of cash in a rapidly expanding airline that is grateful (or gratefulish) to have you.

Take the initiative and stop being doormats.

[slice]

AL, easy to suggest up and move but for anyone without Airline experience and large financial resources it is basically a non-starter. If you are single then it is a possibility, but probably only to somewhere wild (Africa (excl SA), Carribean, PNG). Unless you can get visas, the US and Europe are out. With the UK you will need to have alot of quid to gain the JAA licence. ME and Asia do have alot of expatriates but for the most part these are previously airline experienced. Australia/NZ is unusual in that there are Legions of poorly paid/treated GA guys that the LCCs can recruit from. Europe,ME, Asia don't have this - hence the need for expatriates, cadets etc. The US is different again but GA there seems to have more sustainable employment positions through Biz, frieght, EMS etc.

May I suggest that if there was one union in Australia (+ one in NZ) representing ALL pilots pushing for reasonable conditions for all there would not be the situation of GA/Impulse 'barbarians' at the LCC gate hammering down pay and conditions basically through desparation.


Pilots need something akin the AMA where as part of looking after its members the number of licences issued is restricted to more or less demand

[bitter balance]

Slice, AMA analogy doesn't quite work. Doctors are regulated and overseen by state government registration boards. Do you think the government should regulate pilot wages? The AMA is also not the only group that represents doctors in Oz, just the largest and most vocal.

[slice]

Bitter Balance - yes, but as I understand it the AMA has a fair amount of political clout and its influence is felt far and wide through state/fed government. What I was thinking of was an umbrella body that covers all aspects of Aircrew training, ciriculum, licencing, testing, certification, industrial representation, professional issues etc. Not suggesting that the Govt set Aircrew wages, but have this umbrella body control the numbers of Commercial licences issued thus preventing the endemic oversupply of trained Pilots. Without these thousands of desparados the ability of any Company to offer ever decreasing salary and conditions becomes extremely limited.

[Al E. Vator]

Slice...excellent suggestion indeed.

In Australia the AFAP and AIPA should join forces and they should integrate with their NZ counterparts. It won't stop the young or desperate undercutting colleagues but it will allow ONE cohesive voice, vocal on such aspects as minimum salaries and Airspace etc with far more political clout than is at present the case.

Don't think this will happen as the egos and/or pride within the respective associations are too precious.

[bitter balance]

Slice, try getting that through the ACCC. The proposed entity restricting the issue of CPLs etc would be in a bit of strife with respect to the Trade Practices Act. Change the act you say. Should the Trade Practices Act be tossed to allow pilots to maintain their remuneration levels? I expect I know the answer most on this board will give to that one ;)

[slice]

So how do they get away with it for doctors (?)

The answer of course is that medical students are put through a rigid and highly institutionalised system deeply embeded in the University structure where numbers are tightly controlled - no Trade Practices act intruding there!

I admit basically the whole paradigm (what a wanky word that is!) would have to shift. The plethora of commercial training schools, some of dubious quality, would be rationalized and put under the broad control of this mythical umbrella organization I am dreaming of. Say a dozen or so schools teaching commercial flying around the country with G1 & G2 instructors paid a good full-time salary being efficently put use by doing alot of flying in trainers doings 750-100 hrs pa. Umbrella organization ensures standards and standardization (up to a point of course) and candidates are screened by a selection commitee to determine basic aptitude. G3s cut their teeth at PPL only schools that are not affected.

The current lassez-faire free market approach has failed dismally to maintain consistent standards of training and needs to be fundamentally changed.

This is just food for thought - you could pick holes in what I have proposed till the cows come home but my point is that the current system is poor.

This thread has gone way off the PB topic(apologies) so I will post my vision of a glorious future on the sunny uplands in the land of aviation milk and honey on a new thread! :)

[Wirraway]

Dow Jones
Monday November 17, 9:35 AM AEDT

NZ Pacific Blue: May Not Start Domestic Service From Auckland

WELLINGTON (Dow Jones)--Pacific Blue, an offshoot of Australian airline Virgin Blue, plans to start flying domestic routes from next year, but might not start with flights out of Auckland, said Virgin Blue's head of commercial operations David Huttner Monday.

"We hope to be flying domestically nest year," Huttner told Radio New Zealand, but refused to put a timetable on the move.

"While we see Auckland as important to our long-term plan, it isn't necessarily the first step."

Huttner was responding to claims by Ralph Norris, chief executive officer of Air New Zealand Ltd. that Pacific Blue won't be able to start a New Zealand domestic service because it won't be able to get terminal space at Auckland International Airport Ltd.

Huttner denied the airline is having trouble getting the terminal space in New Zealand's biggest city.

Pacific Blue will be "working with the folks at Auckland Airport in the coming weeks to try to identify a suitable space to build our own facility."

Pacific Blue will early next year start flying from Christchurch on New Zealand's South Island to Melbourne and Brisbane and plans to become New Zealand's third domestic airline, to compete with Air New Zealand and Qantas Airways Ltd.

Huttner said that even if Pacific Blue has to build its own terminal facilities at Auckland Airport, it wouldn't stop it from flying there in 2004.

"It's not a complicated process if we can design the right facilities," he said.

After the New Zealand Commerce Commission rejected the planned alliance between Air New Zealand and Qantas last month, Air New Zealand withdrew from the conditional agreement it had with Pacific Blue for terminal access and ground handling facilities.

-Wellington Bureau, Dow Jones Newswires; 64-4-471-5990; [email protected]

===========================================

[TIMMEEEE]

Just the thought of having to build a terminal at Auckland means a serious spanner has been thrown into their works.
Auckland is the passenger capital of NZ (a bit like Sydney in Oz) and the cost of building their own terminal (albeit a tent or even shack) can be a major expense.

Couple that with them supposedly trying to get out of the Rishworth contract makes us think all is not as smooth as suggested.

Rumour is also that those that applied to VB and missed out will probably not be considered for Pacific Blue either.
There are alot of Kiwi expats that are flying nice equipment overseas and keen to get home.

As the man said, "It wont happen straight away, but it will happen!"