Defence Cuts.........

[BEagle]

It seems that Trust-me Tone's poodle act with Mad George in Iraq has cost the UK defence budget dear:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-887132,00.html


"MINISTERS are planning to cut the size of the armed forces and to slash spending on conventional weapons in a radical rejig that could save billions of pounds"

(Sorry, overseas readers - the ST won't let you log on for free)

Do I hear the sound of pins being taken out of several black and yellows?

[newshound]

I thought the Govt's exhaustive Strategic Defence Review had established the future size and shape of HM Forces ?

or is that being cynical of me ?

[propulike]

That's not cynical.

That's naive ! ;)

To improve our capability and effectivness, cut the budget by £1bn per year. Need Alastair Campbell back to make sense of that one.

3 thoughts -
a) How on earth has Buff survived this long?
b) Surely even he would leave is this is put through?
c) Who does he think he would be in charge of if it is put through?

[bay17-20]

SDR, Betts, Options........ just keep having reviews until you find one you can afford.

Coupled with "politically correct" procurement and it is not hard to see how we have arrived at this sad state of affairs.

The pins were pulled on lots of black and yellows long ago, it is how much pressure you apply before they go off, and there have been a few bangs of late.

To those left, stay happy, remember " things can only get better " (or at the very least, the bat will start to hurt less with every insertion) :E

[Pontius Navigator]

Good plan really.

Let Buff launch the plan, fire him, and you keep your options open.

[TURNBULL]

Sunday Torygraph reported that MOD is trying to write-off over £1.5 bn due to projects being cancelled - £1.5 bn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Radar for the SHAR, soon to go out of service! A dry dock for nuclear subs that was too big! Not to mention the £5bn overbudget Typhoon.

Now they want to cut the budget - so much for smart procurement.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Many of the commitments made in the SDR have been abandoned - witness the loss of the Sea Harrier (see the Sea Jet thread), the fact that frigates/destroyer numbers have dropped below the minimum of 32 that the SDR said (despite the increase in operational tempo), only four RAF air defence sqaudrons despite that fact that the SDR said FIVE was the minimum needed (and that was before 9/11) etc etc etc....

More commitments + more threats + fewer assets + fewer people + reduced funding* = SERVERE problems.

* Despite all the talk of extra money for defence, the UK defence budget is less (in real terms or as a percentage of Government spending) that when Labour won the 1997 election.

[The Gorilla]

Well there's only two courses of action available here isn't there?

Vote with your feet and get another job,

OR

Stick it out and work harder with fewer resources for no thanks at all.

Dress it up as much as you like, but it is the bottom line.

:ok:

[BEagle]

.....and indications are that airlines are starting to ring people up again! The recovery in the industry is just about to start (unless MYT goes under and floods the market with pilots?).

When is the next election? I do hope that there'll be enough people to vote this bunch out of office.

[MilOps]

And replace them with who exactly?

My black and yellow is being pulled at the end of the month, that'll be 22 years thank you very much. Can't abide the thought of continuing to serve an organisation that is badly led, badly equipped and taken for granted!

Rant over

[right chopper]

I was going to start a new topic to ask this but it may fit in better here after MilOp's rant.
I have met several people who say similar things and appear totally disillusioned with leadership/kit/time away etc. However, despite this they put up with it and still motivate themselves to give everything to their jobs. Now is it just making the best of a bad lot or actually because it's not actually that bad? Whatever the answer I was wondering what people do to motivate themselves through the low times when morale is dwindling-sure it can't be for the money.......?:(

[Matelot B'stard]

RC: Having left the Navy a few years ago, and having carved out a relatively decent existence in civvy aviation, you could be forgiven for meeting men like me and thinking all is rosey in the garden outside of the Forces.. however, show me an ex serviceman with job security, I'll show you a naive fool. Show me a guy earning the big pounds, I'll show you a guy with no life outside of work. Of course I am generalising here, and there are a few who do well, and never look back (I class myself as one), but never lose sight of the fact that more often than not, the grass isn't any greener.

As for the post sept 11th effect, recovery?? Lets wait and see.

And in answer to your motivation question, we do it because thats the type of people we are. We knew that nobody else would do it, and that is why we prided ourselves on being the most professional armed services in the world.

Very patriotic I know, but we were a "can do, will do, one way or another" organisation. Trouble is we covered up inadequate policies by "Just doing it".

[RoboAlbert]

Noble sentiments MB

Sadly I think the boys are in general very p:mad:ed off. They also realise that things are very unlikely to get better. It's a quart/pint-pot thing. I think that perhaps you are the one being naive.

[mutleyfour]

Its a complete travesty....

Soon all of our equipment will be as old as the fleet of Green Goddesses that are being warmed up for round 2 of this years fire strike.

[jayteeto]

I have just finished after 24 years and have started a job in police aviation. The pay cut is massive, nearly 20 grand, although the pension will offset that a bit. I am now doing the main attraction... flying. No niff naff and trivia. That is my choice, just remember that despite all the bad bits, the forces lifestyle is pretty good. Do not believe the bull about all those highly paid cushy jobs out here, it is simply not true. Job security?? Insurance policies are now required for everything. The grass is a similar shade over this fence.

[Scud-U-Like]

Absolutely right, Matelot B'stard.

[right chopper]

Thanks for your replies-i guess the good times do outweigh the negatives when you think about it and I quite like the shade of green on this side of the fence anyway...

[The Gorilla]

The grass isn't greener out here, but it is green enough AND it's a different type of grass!!

The money isn't as good as in the Forces but I don't have to spend lots of nights away, do all the niff naff and trivia etc etc. I don't have to look over my shoulder to see where Tonys next overseas event will take me!

I haven't laughed so much in ages, going to work is a real pleasure and I have the blood pressure of an 18 year old!!

Now if I could only have the body!!!


:ok:

[right chopper]

I guess it's just quite disheartening when you're relatively new to the service to hear negative comments from those you look up to for their pearls of wisdom, not to mention their motivating war stories. Luckily I'm still blessed with the enthusiasm of youth and just want to crack on and learn my trade to the full-i suppose I'll become cynical enough myself in my own time. It just amazes me that people can be so cynical and complain so much but still carry on and give 100% to their jobs. Patriotic or not MB, it is testiment to the grit and attitude required in the modern day force i guess. Should have added this to the 'I love my job thread'!

[MilOps]

Chaps,

Having read posts subsequent to mine I thought that my rant deserved an explanation.

My 22 years in the RAF has been spent on the ground in a non aircrew role and on the lowest payband. I have never complained about this as military aircraft operations is my bag and I've enjoyed it immensely. However I'm older now,my expectations of life have changed and more importantly my pay is no longer competetive.

The majority of posters here appear to be aircrew, and commissioned to boot, so therefore your pay and conditions are very favourable. This therefore is why I see a lot of this 'Grass is not greener' mentality, and granted in your cases that may well be the case. However what about personal satisfaction, sense of achievement, worthwhile responsibility et al? For me, a SNCO FOM, there is nothing that would induce me to stay, Flight Sergeant offers nothing, and as for WO, well would you relish the idea of working in the NOTAM office at Heathrow? I don't! My trade is run by Air Traffikers who are a cancer and have mis managed the trade for years and as for Flight Ops Officers.........

Don't misunderstand me , I believe to the very core of my being that military service is one of the finest contibutions an individual can make to society. There clearly are ups and downs, but then what industry doesn't have the same? If it wasn't for the poor pay, crap career opportunities and numpties running my trade I wouldn't hesitate to do the full thing to 55, but I can earn more money doing pretty much anything.

Ah what a bout a comission you may suggest, well I have sat on the fence on that one and have been tempted but to be honest the commissioned lifestyle is not my bag. Plus I have no desire to become an Admin Sec or Supply Officer, and I certainly don't want to be a Flight Ops Officer, even though my service and experience would enable me to walk in seemlessly. I have no time for them and nor does anybody else it seems. So why should I waste effort preparing for that when I feel my intellect can be better spent more productively elsewhere.

No gentlemen the time has come to say goodbye. What will I do, simple go to university! my wife earns considerably more than me, but then that isn't hard.

[soddim]

In 3.5 decades in the RAF I enjoyed my life despite many defence cuts (we never had an expansion despite increases in the threat) and droves of disillusioned leavers - worst part was the dross stayed on and got promoted! Why did I stay? Simply because, on balance, my job was more enjoyable than any alternative I knew.

Not at all sure what my decision would be now if I was 20 or so years younger (no, I don't wish!) but if the crap outweighs the caviar then find another life just in case you pass this way only once.

[Matelot B'stard]

RoboAlbert:

I'm not naive in the slightest, I know how unhappy the troops are, and have been for some years, speaking purely from a Navy standpoint, we have taken redundancies on the chin, watched most of our shore based jobs get "Civilianised" and still met all of the operational commitments one way or another. That was my whole point.. Yes conditions are naff, sure duties and parades and all the trivia that goes with the armed services are a right royal pain in the rear, budgets lousy, equipment ancient, need I go on? I could throw back free health care, a certain amount of security, and having seen some cracking nights out all over the world, I could say I even had a lot of fun along the way, but my whole point is this:

We did the job through choice, we did it despite all of the constraints placed on us, we did it better than the rest, and at the end of the day, when it was time to relax with beer and good company, it felt damn good.

Lets be honest, there are times when you are proud to be in the services, and its great, but you are entitled to moan, thats ok by me, I had plenty to gripe about too.

Just in case you are thinking "If you think the forces are so good, why did you leave?" Well I am sorry to admit I did it at the request of my now ex-wife, what does that tell you:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

MilOps,
Funny but today heard that the control side will be 30% under manned in a few months.

I have served my time as an Ops Officer, oh, about 9 years, but always as a shift cover not the poor sod who had to open up or close up every day. Still as aircrew it was often welcomed as a rest tour.

In my last job, as the Flt Ops were taking over I heard some interesting RT which indicated things were going to get interesting. The ops officer had heard but not understood and therefore taken no notice of the chatter.

Another time, quiet night NOTHING happening except for the jets getting ready to launch. Oh, one thing was happening. The temperatures were swopping with the DP rising. Then the wind kicked up a couple of knots. Didn't need a window to predict what was going to happen next.

I had the beers lined up before the stack call!

[right chopper]

Beer...motivation enough PN!

[European Crash]

It never ceases to amaze me how bitter and twisted people can become in the course of their Service careers. I suspect that all of us have periods of doubt and set-back, but there are always options - trade/branch change and PVR being two of them! Inevitiably it seems that the first people to get blamed are the 'leadership' but, perhaps, the mirror should be used in the first instance. Above all else, to thyself be true. Being bitter proves nothing - it does not endear one to others; indeed it will single one out as a bit 'odd' and in common with all organisations and companies, it is important for the face to fit.

I have gone through 2 massive career shifts since I was commissioned in the mid-1980s and have ended up with an intrinsically interesting (and well-paid) job, a great family and an enviable lifestyle. This was all due to conscious decisions that I made, realising that the system - whether it be Innsworth or a private organisation - relies ultimately on the individual to come up with the goods. There are inequities in 'the system'; it is one thing to high-light them - but another to let them eat away at your life.

Would be interested to hear about the Flt Ops problesm alluded to in earlier messages.

[MilOps]

PN.

That's exactly what I'm talking about when I refer to Flt ops. My early experiencies of Ops as a lad entailed having old and bold grounded aircrew, usually on their last tour or type expired, ex Vulcan mates etc. What these people didn't know wasn't worth knowing but the knowledge that they would quite happily pass on to young snots like me was priceless. They're all gone now. Flt Ops curently has problems of it's own that it needs to countenance, they know this and are looking at how to sort it. I have had it from a very reliable scource that CT at St Mawgan last year for example, did the branch no favours at all.

EC

I'm not bitter as I feel you clearly think I and others are, just frustrated. I love being in the RAF and am as much of a cabbage as you'll ever get, the day I leave will be without doubt the saddest day of my life, and to be honest for all my posturing and bluster I really don't want to leave. But when the job satisfaction, sense of purpose, quality of life etc has been eroded to the extent that it has then it must be time to go, hasn't it?

[Wee Jock]

MilOps, I left in 1990 for the same reasons as you give and I've never looked back. Best decision I ever made and its worked out fine for me. I was a controller in the RAF and the CAA paid me more as a trainee than the RAF paid me as a Sgt. And when I joined in 1976 the Green Godesses were on the streets covering for firemens' strikes, Jim Callaghan's government were decimating the forces with defence cuts, aircraft sat in hangars for months because there were no spares, and the accommodation blocks were literally falling to pieces (the one I lived in had builder's jacks holding up the ceilings). So looks like nothing has really ever changed and if I had to blame anyone for the state the forces find themselves still in 27 years later, I'd lay it firmly at the door of the Ministry of Defence, which is without doubt staffed by the biggest bunch of muppets on the planet. It certainly is no reflection on the people who serve in the forces, who manage to run the show despite the inept tinkering with budgets and projects by their so-called leaders.

So you pays your money and you makes your choice, and I chose to leave. I had a great time, but I'm also glad I left which makes me very lucky, really. Good luck, MilOps, hope it works out for you, but if you managed to stay in the RAF that long, you'll do fine at whatever you chose next.

:ok:

[Colonel W E Kurtz]

The Grass is a hell of a lot greener on the civvy side! I left military flying last year and everything is a hell of a lot better from where I'm standing flying commercially.

And most importantly I don't work for the Bliar and his evil government any more!!

[D-IFF_ident]

Is there enough gold left in the treasury to buy a new toilet bung? I can't take off without one and there aren't any spares. Still, nice hotel.

[The Fin]

In answer to the question of what keeps us aircrew in, I think it's the chance to do a job you only dream of as a child, to work with superb quality, motivated and talented people, to rely on them, and be relied upon and to triumph in spite of cutbacks, etc.

And when the triv really hurts, one low level sortie through some challenging terrain, fighting through an air threat, hitting a target and dropping some bombs isn't half a good tonic.

As for the bitterness, I think a lot of us would do well to remember just how much we wanted this job when we applied, how many failed to get it, and how many would gnaw off their right arm to do it right now. Sure it has its frustrations, life's like that, but it's still a hell of a way of life any I'd recommend it to anyone.

[Pontius Navigator]

MilOps,
I'm at 42 years and counting. My first mentor in Ops was a grounded Sgt-nav off Wellingtons. The the 5th aircraft type I flew in was an Anson. The one that was built just before the one that Gregory Peck had in Purple Plain.

Aside from the Sgt-nav the other Ops officer was off Neptunes.

What goes round goes round but it takes years of experience to build up.

This really should go in a different thread but here goes:

Flt Ops girly given a 2 for service writing complains to hairy Sqn Ldr Ops (about 20 years my junior), "why have you given me only a 2 for SW? I'm an ex-scribbly."

"Perhaps that's why you're an ex-scribbly."

[right chopper]

Ah that's the stuff The Fin-makes me want to put the Dambusters theme on my Hi-fi and polish up my best blues. Thoroughly motivating...let's go!

[MilOps]

PN

Hah, spot on again. My first tour as an LAC had me working for a Flt Lt Nav who had been jiffed into becoming an air traffiker, his first tour was Wellingtons! I take it your Anson must have been a Mk 20 or 21 then?

Anyway we digress, you're absolutely right this should be on another thread but hey ho it's here now. One of my main gripes with Flt Ops is the lack of knowledge, if you tried to get a job in civil aviation at the same level that the RAF recruits it's OpsOs you would be told to bu99er off and go away to get some experience.

I like to be controversial, so here goes. All Flt Ops Officers should be recruited exclusively from within the Service from appropriate Trades/Branches, by that I mean NCA, FOM, ATC, ASM, etc. and at SNCO level.

There we go, Moggie formation large flock of pigeons starboard 10 angels 15.

[navbag]

What an interesting thread. Just goes to show that nothing changes!
Two to three years ago I can remember getting involved in another disillusioned aircrew, shall I jump, shan't I debate on this very web site! I enjoyed my RAF job, who doesn't like LL in a GR4!! But was getting disillusioned, like a lot of others.
Well, I'm one of those who had the b###s to jump and haven't looked back! Yes, it was a very big decision but enough was enough, for all the same reasons being churned out here. Yes, I do miss the flying a wee bit if I was honest, but the positives far outweigh the negatives.
Life is what you make it, I now have a sound job and new career earning considerably more thankyou (although I wasn't at first!) and respected for what I do, I have a life with my family, stability, no nasty surprises from Bliar and a much wider perspective on what I want, when, where and how.....and I don't winge about what if....Remember, guys, it's your life and if you don't like it, change it! There are jobs out there, but open your scan and your expectations to improve your quality of life
More than happy to discuss!

[Pontius Navigator]

MilOps, you missed another important category, knockers.

NCO aircrew such as AEOps and Air Eng. We had one of each. The AEOp knew his stuff and was extremely laid back (sorry Jon) but the Air Eng was something else again.

He was a walking on water variety pushing for Sqn Ldr in his first tour. He rated 10/10.

They got in with a commissioning carrot to make up for loss of flying pay.

[propulike]

PN

I really must agree.

Knockers are great.

They put a smile on your face in the morning, give you something to watch when you're bored and can keep you afloat in a storm when everyone else is going under.

Fortunately there are a couple of good ones in the Ops setup at our place too. Depends on the shift though...

[BEagle]

Personally I prefer the 'knockers' one used to see in the Sun Calendar!

Little did Sam Fox ever know how much she did for Cold War thawing when her piccie was held up in the window of our Vickers Funbus for the Ivans in their Bears to see! Much grinning and friendly gesticulating at an A3 sized topless Sam against a black background - initially from the mate in the rear turret and then from all the other Ivans in their little leather hats from every available window of their aeroplane!

Happy times.....

[MilOps]

PN

I did include Kockers in my line up, re NCA. That's what they're called now. However I do wonder what rear crew have to offer, after all they only muck about with radios, radar, airframes and loads. Not much relevence there then!?;)

[Pontius Navigator]

MilOps,
The rear crew or SLF do pick up quite a bit as they follow the antics of the hired help up front. We had one pearler in a Shack. The Nav, every 30 minutes duly got a fix and updated the ETA for Keflavik. After one fix he duly called the updated ETA which was about 35 minutes later than the previous one, ie we had lost 35 minutes in 30!

You could hear the WRONG echo up the aircraft without intercom.

Propulike,
I had one, in the command sense you understand, at Ascension Island. She had her hair up in a bun and could not lie on her back. She was also uncomfortable lying on her front on the campbed, so I used to get a couple of hours zeds each night shift.
1984 that was.

[MilOps]

PN

I know they do, hence my childish snipe. Good story though.

[Unmissable]

Navbag

You say life outside is great but you can't help spending your free time on MILITARY aircrew forums. Perhaps you miss some aspects more than you would care to admit?

[Rev Caption]

Another round of defence cuts. The sun goes up the world spins round we have a war the NHS squeaks, the government cuts defence. the sun goes down... hmmm, there seems to be a pattern emerging over the last 30 years. The only things that seem to be constant when we embark on yet another military excursion are:

New untried weapons
New untried, unpractised tactics
New SOPs
New rules
Redundancy notices
Increased long-term commitments
Followed by defence cuts

My major beef is that there are so many essential, but unfinished "initiatives" underway at the moment that we cannot possibly succeed. I wouldn't claim to know them all but there are:

Defence Training Review
UK Military Flying Training System
UK Maritme Command Training System
Armoured Vehicle Training System
Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft
Future Defence Supply Chain Initiative

....and no doubt loads more to boot. Funny how some of these have been running for years, but don't seem to be getting anywhere. And they call this "smart" procurement?

Plus Ca meme chose

Father forgive them......

Rev C

[bigley]

Before I start my drip at people like milops, I must state that I am not a flight ops person. The reason the flt ops branch is in such a state is because many members of the RAF, and I hasten to add they are not aircrew by and large, have not given the branch a chance. I have worked with excellent flt ops people who are trying their best to establish the branch's reputation. It has only been in existence for 5 years, give them a chance, after all the RAF was universally mocked when it was new.

[MilOps]

Bigley,

Don't misunderstand me, I feel overall that flight ops is a good thing, however IMHO it's inception was poorly thought through. When these people hit the streets nobody really knew what to do with them so they just ended up doing all the sh1te that aircrew couldn't be ar55ed to do.

Now I don't dispute that there are excellent examples out there, clearly there is good and bad in all things, but remember I work with them all the time, and I have to say that there are an awful lot more who really do try your patience, as a hugely experienced SNCO I despair at the stupidity and arrogance of many in their ranks. I have been doing this job for 22 years, have civilian OpsO's qualifications and consequently feel that I am commenting from a reasonabley strong standpoint.

FYI The latest batch of Ab Initio OpsOs that I have dealt with are excellent and feel pretty much the same way as I and my colleages. These guys joined wanting to do the job and are not these branch changees that jumped ship hoping to kickstart failing careers and who consequently brought all sorts of preconceptions with them, or the branch failures who ended up doing flt ops because that's all they were offered. Remember FOTS at one point was refereed to as 'Failed other training systems' not good as I am sure you will agree.

The Branch is 5 years old, has a further five to go before it's full integration and has a considerable amount of work to do. Some of the worst critics of Flt Ops as you say are not aircrew but other ground branches, and in particular air traffic who continue even now to muscle in on the act.

To go forward Flt Ops really must put as much space between it the air traffic twits, get a full time branch sponsor and stop being suckered into doing triv.

In a way I'm a great fan but despair at where it's currently going

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

MilOps, I am an Air Traffiker, I work on a daily basis with flt ops officers and I can assure you that ATC has no inclination to "muscle in on the act"; can you give a recent example of Air Traffic trying to do that? Indeed, if you talked to those in the know, you would realise that FOTS has recently taken on the responsibility for managing TTF. Accepted, FOTS is still part of CATCS but that is for 2 reasons:

a. The Flt Ops organisation has no staff support - I suggest you point that one at the sponsor.

b. There has to be some sort of command structure - we are military after all.

FYI, the latest FOTS cse that will graduate next Thursday has a number of re-treads. Indeed, it is my opinion (if I was at work I could give you precise statistics) that a very significant number of FOTS students are still re-treads (NCA feature high on the list and I suspect that this will increase). Just look at the officers on the instructional staff right now - one ex supplier and two ex SH loadies.

Can I suggest that, if you are really interested in the development of flt ops and the FOA/FOM specialisation, you actually speak to the people (including air traffic twits) who are desperately trying to make it work. PM me if you wish to get involved.

PS. Flt Ops isn't a Branch - it is a specialisation within the Ops Spt Branch.

[bigley]

Totally agree that the specialisation needs a sponsor, I know for a fact that snr Flt Ops Officers are pushing hard for it to happen. As for the retreads jumping ship fo the promise of quick promotion, a terrible generalisation I am afraid, again I know for a fact that the instructional staff of whom you write, are all volunteers for the specialisation for other reasons than a quick route to air rank. Furthemore, it is the staff of FOTS that are in the thick of attempting to establish Flt Ops as it should be established. So there!

On another point, I also totally agree that there have been ex aircrew, amongst others, who have been appalling at the job, but then is everybody in every branch good at their job?

[propulike]

If I could just change the subject of this thread for a moment -

Has anyone heard how these cuts (sorry, savings) are going to be implemented? Mates in the Ivory Towers have 'heard' rumours about losing 11,000 personnel! Forget about from where, just are they going to offer redundancy again :D

[Shackman]

Further to 'savings' or 'cuts' - local TV news up in this end of the country were reporting that the unions and local council were getting up a petition to save Stafford from closing. Apart from the MU side of things, an extremely useful refuel site and home to the good guys of TSW (or whatever it's called now). Again, nothing official but plenty of rumours!

[MilOps]

Sorry to drone on , but I feel WBS and Bigley at least deserve a response.

WBF.
Thanks for the info, I am more than conversant with events at TTF thanks. My accusations levied at ATC are more aimed at the day to day interference experienced and the idiot superior mentality displayed by the average controller to Ops staff. Also I am very interested in the development in the trade of FOA/FOM, and have never shyed away from voicing my thoughts and offering solutions to problems. The main reason for my decision to leave is due to this very point, nonexistant career progression and a succession of crap unstimulating employment opportunities that I am expected to 'enjoy'. All this courtesy of the Trade sponsor, and his team, all Air traffickers bar one, the solitary Ops rep who can't get a word in because he's only a WO. Get out a bit more and find out the feeling in the front line, you might get an unwelcome shock. Also, how long does CATCS expect to have control of Flight Ops? Again you have made my point for me, and you don't need to patronise me with comments about command structures, not having a commission doesn't mean that I'm unaware of how the organisation works. By embedding flight ops into the ATC world, you chiselers can maintain a very tight grip on what happens and where it goes. to it's detriment I believe.

Bigley.
Correct it was a horrible generalisation, unfortunately there is more than just a grain of truth in it. I accept that the FOTS staff are attempting to train people but I question the validity of the course content, many, many guys and girls who have completed the course have admitted that the course is whoefully inadequate and is missing vital aspects of Ops work. Breaking out ATOs is a good example. There are many more but frankly I can't be ar55ed anymore dealing with halfwits.

[Pontius Navigator]

The first batch of Flt Ops I came across were: 1. Non-assimilated nav, 2. ex-scribbly, 3. comissioned Air Eng, Good, 4. Commisioned AEOps, OK, 4. ex-scribbly - she thought she was OK.

Now a question. What exactly do they do? Stn Ops certainly but then what? Are they going to run the mission planning at HQ? Weapons Employment etc? Are they going to be the Blue side of Int?

In the US Navy Ops Officer and Sqn Eng are, I believe aircrew billets. At least they have a vested interest. Correct me on this please.

[Civil Servant]

Left in 97 after doing 22. Things were pretty bad then with civilianizing everything which left the boys doing AF every three months or so instead of every 18.

Went into airline ops and did very nicely thank you. Had a couple of bad experiences and am now in a very happy state with a job as secure as it gets these days (hence the handle!) an RAF pension, War Pension and current non contributary pension for when I retire.

Not earning as much as when in the mob but don't have the hassle. (The pensions help a lot)

In fact, life's pretty good these days. I never forget that it was my RAF experience that got me into civvy aviation and the management experience both in and out of the RAF that got me my present job, so no matter how bad it became before I left, I'll always be grateful for the experience.

Best of luck to you all.

[moony]

it's everyone else.

[HOODED]

Loosing 11,000 personell eh! Would'nt surprise me as the powers that be who did all this civilianaising years ago are about to get it all come home to roost. All these ex service ready trained men with a pension that took these jobs paying £10-12K are starting to retire, and places like Valley, Cranwell, Barkston etc are struggling to recruit. Contract prices will increase as pay will have to or they'll have to start training people with the resulting costs!
Saw a job advertised the other day for a qualified deep strip engine fitter at a certain front line unit and they were offering £12,700 for a 38 hr week, strange they haven't filled it yet though. A certain Civilian contractor can't get drivers to do refuleling as they're offering £14K and need HGV plus Hazchem. In real civvy street these guys normally get £20K plus as there's a shortage.
So 11,000 redundant/natural wastage may mean more ready trained guys to do these jobs most with a pension/pay off. Makes sense to me!
Thats if these guys wouldn't rather do a HGV or Plumming course and get paid £20K+ with their pension on top or work at McDonnalds for better than the contractors are offering!

[RubiC Cube]

Haven't heard the one about 11000 losses, but have been told that there is a freeze on FTRS and extensions of service to save money. Perhaps that's why they can't replace me with less than 2 months to go?

[MilOps]

Hmm, and the rumours just keep on getting better.

The latest one I heard today is that the Jag force will go much sooner than expected. Usual thing, some bloke heard it from someone else in the mess at lunch...........................

Anyone like to add to this?

[BEagle]

Non-sustainable policies to solve short-term economic problems never work. If you attract the first cut of ex-Mil people to augment their pensions with lower-paid jobs in newly-civilianised posts, then there won't be anyone to replace them when they ultimately retire. Hardly rocket science, is it?

If the civilian contractors can't recruit people with adequate experience, they'll have to train their own people. But where will they find the trainers or facilitate their newly-trained people to gain even adequate experience? And salaries will have to be competitive to attract employees of sufficient quality if disasters like the St Athan Tornado damage are going to be avoided in future.

I have a feeling that the whole thing is starting to bite - well, hardly surprising, is it? Too many rushed stop-gap 'management initiatives' with inadequate assessment of their long-term effects, perhaps?

[Chinese Vic]

PN

If, by the 'Blue' side of Int you mean ATO/ACO breakout and plotting, CSAR procedures/words of the day, ISOPREPS etc etc then you'll find that the OS (Int) specialisation would be quite glad to have the Flt Ops guys and girls take it on; it would allow the Int Os to get on with the job of doing their best to ensure the aircrew come home in one piece! :ok:

I'm told the F3 guys are integrating the Flt Ops guys into their squadron mission planning/Int cells effectively. I've seen it work for the tanker fleet during Veritas - perhaps it's just the rest of us in the Muds that need to come up to date.....

I've worked with some absolutely top-notch Flt Ops guys, but as has been said, they need a more clearly defined role outside Stn Ops.

Cheers

CV

[DH98]

Getting back on track. Now that it has been reported over the last two weeks in a variety of journals that defence cuts in varying forms are on the cards, the Army being told that it is expected to wind up 10 regiments so that it can lose 9000 personnel for example, Typhoon order being cut to around 143 ac, Type 45 destroyers going from 12 to 10 and so on and so forth, what do we all reckon to personnel redundancies?

I for one can't see it, there should be enough natural wastage to easily account for any manpower cuts, but if there is an expected reduction overall of 11000 people they might not achieve that figure in the required timescale.

I'm just about to PVR, makes me wonder whether it might be worth waiting for the white paper to be published before I sign any paperwork. One thing I do know, if the MoD did have a redundancy programme, and my trade (FOM) was included, I suspect the the trade would pretty much cease to exist.

[Vage Rot]

Have to agree with Fin,

It's a great job that many youngsters would give anything to do.

Trouble is how much other cr@p comes with it and how few people are left to do the other cr@p! Not many 'rest' tours available away from Sqn but still close to the flying either!

Still, keeps the bills paid and the chicks rolling in!

[propulike]

Well, looks like the announcement is on the way. Not cuts you understand, just spending less and trying to do more with what's left.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3304867.stm

Will there ever be good news?

[escapee]

Who the hell is CDS trying to kid when he says the changes are not driven by politicians or accountants! :yuk:

[RubiC Cube]

Attended a 4* brief yesterday (Chatham House Rules). Throughout he talked about smaller forces. When asked about redundancies, he replied that it would be naive to think that all 3 services would not be affected. Study groups are to report in April.

[Biggus]

Rumours circulating at work of reducing the RAF down to a force of approx. 38,000-39,000. The impression given is that of a politician's/bean counter's number pulled out of a hat, that the RAF then has to decide how to achieve.

Has anyone heard any more on this subject?

[Lionel Lion]

Interesting that the FSTA announcement has been delayed again (todays Torygraph). No cash or a different size contract I wonder?

[Jobza Guddun]

Anybody else remember hearing whispers in the mid-90's about a "secret" team within Innsworth named "Project 38"? Something to do with studying how to downsize the RAF to 38000?

Also seem to remember the AMPLT briefers hotly denying that one....no smoke without fire perhaps?

[insty66]

Jobza you should know better

Anybody else remember hearing whispers in the mid-90's about a "secret" team within Innsworth named "Project 38"? Something to do with studying how to downsize the RAF to 38000?

Every thing Innsworth does is a secret or is that a mystery

The only thing we know for sure is at the end of all this we will still be doing the same job with less for longer with even less appreciation from our lords and masters.

The current government is no friend of the Armed forces and will continue to "rationalise" as long as it is in power.

Before you all jump on and tell me to PVR/Leave "if you can't take a joke" etc etc I'm only hanging on for the money check previous posts to see just what it means to many other people!

Still I did stack early yesterday so it's not all bad news!

[Unmissable]

What the Defence White paper failed to address was the fact that every war we get into involves us leaving several hundred, if not thousands military personnel (grunts and airmen ,even occasionally the Navy) in theatre. How many people do we still have in? a) The Falklands. b) Sierra Leone c) Bosnia d) Kosovo e) Middle East after GW1 (Northern and Southern Watch) f) Afghanistan g) East Timor not to mention home issues such as NI or the current Middle East commitment.


Whilst I agree that numbers of aircraft is not the be-all and end-all of any particular battle, nor is the number of grunts who occupy the ground. The issue is, how many bodies / or aircraft have we got to cover all our commitments and how often they get rotated.

THE NUMBER OF PERSONNEL NEEDED TO SUSTAIN OPERATIONS IN THEATRE(S) AT ANY ONE TIME IS NOT EQUAL TO THE NUMBER OF PERSONNEL REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN THE MILITARY'S CAPABILITIES.