Check-in first, land second!

[3rdtimelucky]

Can anyone shed a little light over ATC procedures regarding landing priority?

I am tired of battling away at 230kts, checking into destination approach freq and then have Air Traffic slow us down to 170 kts and vector us 45 degrees off track to 'slot-in' faster Jet traffic, from behind! (Ouch!)

Is this a personal dig because we don't have ludirous colour schemes on our tails? Or is there some extra ammendment that says:

" Thou shalt be penalized for having propellors."

:confused:

[vector4fun]

You don't say how far out or what altitude or in what type aircraft this happens, but in my experience if you're 30-40 miles out, and the jet is still above 100, and doing 350-410 kts over the ground, well, sorry chum.

On the other hand, if it's within 20 miles or so, and you can do 210 till base leg, and 160 or so to the FAF, then I'll usually stick you right in line from there on in.



I reserve the right to adjust MY sequnce based on YOUR attitude...:}:hmm: :ok:

[Engine overtemp]

If you are Spanish into a Spanish airport you will be put first, irrespective of other traffic or their position or speed!

[Radar]

vector4fun

"I reserve the right to adjust MY sequnce based on YOUR attitude... "

LOL love it

[Helen49]

I reserve the right to adjust MY sequnce based on YOUR attitude....

This is, unfortunately, the pompous attitude of a small proportion of the ATCO fraternity.......or perhaps, to give the benefit of the doubt, he just chose his words badly.

In response to the original post , it would be more accurate to say that ATC look at the whole picture and not at individual aircraft. Their aim being to reduce the 'overall' traffic delay to a minimum. This will inevitably mean that some aircraft will be delayed but not necessarily those with a windmill at the front!

The vast majority of professional pilots understand this procedure, very often because they have visited a busy ATC unit and seen for themselves....

[3rdtimelucky]

vector4fun, I can understand what you say,


My question was, Is there a set procedure laid down in the ATC 'Ops manual' so to speak?

At the end of the day everyone should be around the 250kt mark at the point they check into approach freq! To sit and listen to ATC giving direct commands to "keep your speed over 350kts and I 'Fit' you in" is just out of order. Especially when it comes to a 5-10 min delay every day!!!

I fully understand the 'Big' picture you guys keep your eye on, and I admire you for it, but I would expect some sort of procedure to be have been laid down by your manual writers.

To put the record straight, if ATC were to ask us for high speed (barring the fact that using the words Jetstream and High speed in the same sentance has caused uncontrolled hysterics in many a sane brain!)
we can keep 230kts up to around 8-6 miles. If we are keen, 4 is not too much of a problem, before upsetting the wage payers!

To further, help you, I am not talking about the likes of MAN, or LHR etc (I have never had a problem here as the volume of traffic stops such behaviour) The biggest offenders would be GLA, ABZ and EDN.

[flower]

There are so many reasons for placing you further back the sequence, it is not just about speed or aircraft type. It may be that both of you would get to the same point at the same time, we have to make one of you no.1 we know above FL100 that the other jet can maintain a higher speed and overhaul you , thus a choice is made, it could be that if we make you number 1 the other aircraft may have to be vectored all over the sky and towards potential hazards. There is also the issue of your position and the other aircrafts against outbound climbing aircraft which may also impact on the final decision of sequencing
The best cure for your problem I suspect is a friendly chat with the ATC units and I would suggest a visit , the world looks very different on a radar screen, but if there is a genuine grievance highlight either directly to the unit or through chirp

The comment made by vector for fun I'm sure was made in humour don't all jump down their throat

[radar707]

3rdtimelucky,

Just put you straight with regards to GLA -

If you're inbound via LANAK, and your on the inside, then you will be ahead of any jet traffic behind and outside you, if you're on the outside then you'll be following whatever is inside of you be it a jet a prop or whatever.

If you're inbound via ROBBO or FOYLE then we have the problem of spurious GPWS alerts to the north of the airfield, this restricts the speeds we lt you fly at since we are required to vector you for a 12 mile (or thereabouts) final at 3500ft.

I am a great believer (as are all the other controllers on my watch) in getting the ATP's and the Jetstreams in ahead of the jets, for the simple reasons you have stated, you can fly a whole lot faster down to 4 than the big boys behind you.

When I was training I learned this the hard way, told a 757 to keep his speed up to get the overtake, he duly complied, got the overtake and level separation, turned him onto base leg and he virtually stopped, the poor guy in the ATP behind him ended up getting a scenic tour of Stirling.

Ever since then, I'll get the props in ahead, providing they are on the inside approaching LANAK, or an obvious No 1 from the west.

There is no anti prop feeling amongst controllers, we determine what is likely to be the best landing order and sequence you appropriatel.

Next time you're in GLA, give us a call, come and see what we have to work with and manpower permitting we might be able to get you some time on the simulator so you can see just how easy it isn't

[ferris]

3rdtimelucky.
I can't speak about the specific places you've mentioned, but something to bear in mind is that ATC sequences based on groundspeed. This is something that I've noticed is lost, because everyone talks about IAS. Are you at a lower level than the jets you are talking about?
Some other points about sequencing-
-Props are much more flexible than jets. It is far easier to slow a prop than a jet.
-Less overall delay will be caused by telling the jet to go fast and the prop to slow, than vice versa, because you have flexability at both ends of the speed range. The prop cannot speed up to 300kts.
-The 'natural' sequence will usually define the landing order. ie. If untouched, what would happen? If left alone, the jet would reach the field first, then ATC will make that happen, just with the required spacing added. If you mess with this, you are just making your job harder.
-Economic imperitive. This is becoming more a factor these days. The greater good, for the larger number. ie if it's a dead heat, it will cost more money to delay the jet (I realise this will be unfair if the prop is copping the delay every day, and the jet never does. One has to be careful in making that sort of accusation, as every pilot thinks he is being discriminated against. Often, you are not privy to the delay being given to other aircraft- the jet will probably get a speed restriction higher up on another freq and you never hear it, then claim the jet is never delayed).
-Runway use. Are other aircraft waiting to depart? Wake turb comes into it.

I sequence all day every day, and these are the 'big picture' things that I find pilots sometimes don't see.

[foundation digger]

Never heard ATC ask for 350 knts.

Understand your frustration, but such is life.

Its the disadvantage of props, dont go fast enough or high enough.

I have experienced the opposite , being asked to slow up behind
a turboprop 150 miles out and struggling to stay on schedule.

Although controlers may think it unnecessary, if possible explain
breifly what your intentions are. Unusually large speed changes make it hard to meet altitude constraints.

Stanstead controlers are great they never ask for speed change in the desent. Always when level.

[jtstream]

Have you by chance noticed how many times other aircraft have been vectored to put you in?

[stop, stop, stop]

I can certainly sympathise with 3rdtimelucky, being a Jetstream driver out of ABZ. On many an occasion I have been asked to slowup when the only other traffic (apparent) was behind us and at similar speed (EMB 135)

I admit to getting just a wee bit 'short' with ATC who promptly resumed us at our normal approach speed and brought the number 2 in second! Thanx guys!

Recently, the problem has not seemed to occur. Not sure if ATC have been onto the problem before it becomes apparent or it just hasn't been a problem. I don't know.

I am sure that all ATC guys and gals are aware of these problems and the Toes that get stepped on no matter what their final decision, because it is just that, ATC's decision!!

I would ask any ATC out there, is there anything we could include in our 'Checkin spiel' that could help these situations? VMO speed, ETA at threshold, distance from theshold that we turn the fires off?

Just a thought!

[Jetstream Rider]

3rdtime lucky - you win some, you loose some. Used to fly the J41 into Gatwick and at times they peeled us off well before WILLO and popped us into 08 because they knew we could. Gear down at FL 120, props levers fully forward (icing on if it gets tight) and down we go. Great fun. Jets were given lots of extra track miles to get the height off.

Now what really used to irritate was slowing down for an ATP ahead into Southampton when we could have easily overtaken him :}

[hatsoff]

I agree with Radar 707.

From my experience very few jets get past a Jetsream when the nose is down.
Sure the trainees think "slow Prop" and try to put the jet ahead but you only let them do that a couple of times to learn the lesson.

Clearly someone is still learning , so 3XLucky , I'm sorry you've had the Grand Tour Treatment .

[Data Dad]

I will stick my oar in and give you an Aberdeen ATCO's opinion....

Personally, my own preference is to get the J32's and J41's in first - putting a larger vortex category aircraft ahead of you (most times) only makes my task harder as I then need to increase seperation! HOWEVER....

...What might seem like a quiet frequency to you may be very misleading - it may be that you are at the end of a sequence of many more aircraft BUT you (being at the end ) are not transferred to the Director frequency but vectored in by the Initial Controller.

.... With regards to the comment about Embraer and "same speed", well sorry - thats NOT what I see on both observed groundspeed and our radar groundspeed readout! Left alone (ie: no ATC Speed rrestriction) most Embraers (BACX probably dont do it so often - maybe they are better at "obeying the 250kts below FL100 rule :D ) are doing 400kts+ downwind and still doing 300+ on base.

.... If 34 is in use, the straight-in approaches can be a REAL PAIN! - not helped by the "hump" that some EZE pilots take at being doglegged a bit so they can be fitted in - the alternative is to let you run to the ATF at FL90 and vector you from there!

....as an ATCO I do EVRYTHING possible to get you in as quick as I possibly can - to do anything else means I have to "control" you longer - the sooner you are gone from my "sector" the better! I have lost count of the number of times I have offered an EZE an out of wind runway for landing or take-off to save a) a bit of time and b) a few track miles - I KNOW that I can rely on them in these situations to us the opportunity ASAP and not dither around on the runway.

...Don't schedule ALL your flights to arrive and depart at the same time! :D

.... I KNOW that some Jetstream pilots layover during the day at Aberdeen - do we ever see any of you in the ops room? - NO! Why not give us a call and come over - we can provide a coffee or 2 and talk about these things and you can see exactly what we have to deal with... (pm me if you want more info)


DD

[vector4fun]

This is, unfortunately, the pompous attitude of a small proportion of the ATCO fraternity.......or perhaps, to give the benefit of the doubt, he just chose his words badly.

Hmmm, and some of the Brit controllers thought *I* was humorless...
:hmm:

3rdtimelucky,

I'm in the U.S., but don't think the problems and considerations are much different here than there.

As you surmise, there's no obvious reason for a controller to work at putting your turboprop behind a jet once the jet has slowed to 250 kts. But there may be some less than obvious ones.

Let's take a case where you're five miles in front of a turbojet on an extended downwind or base to the final, doing 230 kts at 4000'. If the following jet was, for whatever reason, handed off to me high and fast, I may make a poor situation worse by slowing the jet to follow you because many new generation jets can not slow and descend at the same time with any "enthusiasm". I could always vector the jet for descent, but that may not be possible because of the limits of procedure, my airspace or traffic. Then I'm left with a less satisfactory solution of slowing you, because you can, and letting the jet descend at best rate and high speed.

Another situation arises at my airport where we run downwinds to parallel ILS finals. You're going to rwy 35L let's say, but the Jet's going to 35R, yet you're both arriving from the NE. A situation may arise where it's preferable to hurry the jet's arrival, because of gaps in the final for that runway, yet I know you're going to have to extend to 20 mile final for your runway anyway to fit in line. There again, it may make sense to slow you now, and let the jet run on ahead.

Also, as others have said, it may be newer controllers who are simply unaware what your aircraft is truly capable of. When I got into ATC decades ago, the running joke was you could always tell a new controller because they'd try to "beat that Frontier Convair" (580) to the airport with a jet. Something increasingly difficult to do as they got within 25 miles of the airport, and nigh impossible within 15 miles. However, the flip side of that coin is that an experienced controller knows that a turboprop can also slow in a heartbeat. I used to fly MU-2s myself. So some may use it as a "crutch" I suppose, but not as much as pilots think.

Hope that helps! ;)

[BJBATMAN]

I always thought ATC was picking on me also when I could have clearly beat a jet buy sustaining 250kts while the jets need to slow down. But a ATC friend of mine said the reason we get all the vectors and requests is they know we are a lot more flexible than the jets. I have also had this work in my favor and got ahead of jets because ATC knew that I could keep the speed up all the way in.