Bangs & Jolts [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

gofer

9th Nov 2003, 00:10

BA 315 on Thursday last (6NOV) experienced a solid bang and slew to the right at FL240 on leveling off on its way from CDG to LHR. Deathly hush, no comments from the crew ... would you prefer the Apple Tart and tea or something else ... then continued.

Felt as though a caterers truck had tried to kiss the tail ... but on reflection, fairly unlikely at FL240.

Couldn't get a view of the aircraft at all when disembarking at LHR - and nobody was saying anything

Anybody got any ideas or even better facts ??? E-Mail me if you prefer not to have the dirty laundry in public - but it was a very strange sound and skid for an A-319....

Cheers :confused:

lomapaseo

9th Nov 2003, 01:35

Typical aircraft reaction to an engine surge, although unlikely on an A319 without other indications in the cockpit of something wrong.

Not a big deal and no doubt the bird is flying today.

NigelOnDraft

9th Nov 2003, 02:36

Gofer...

If the aircraft flew through another aircraft's wake, it will make a jolt enough to startle the Flt Crew, let alone the PAX! I make a point of making a PA is this happens, but maybe not all do...

It is also possible, in negotiating their dinner / the Telegraph crossword / laughing at the latest Mgmt edict, someone's foot slipped off a foot rest onto a rudder pedal. I'd still have made a PA - and blamed the above turbulence!

To be honest, if the Cabin Crew continued without batting an eyelid, I wouldn't worry...

NoD
(BA A319 Capt)

maxalt

9th Nov 2003, 09:32

Certain companies Fleet Captains are in the habit of treating such 'reports' from SLF as if they were the learned observations of aviation experts.
This credulous behaviour then manifests itself in ridiculous phone calls to your home on your day off asking to 'please explain that bump that happened three months ago on flight xyz'.

Perhaps these gullible Fleet Captains should realise that these 'reports' are to be treated with the contempt they deserve and not bother their crews with such nonsense.

The only answer to such enquiries is...I don't remember...the aircraft was not bent or broken...perhaps some turbulence...what would you like me to say?

Oh yes I forgot to tell you about that middair collision I had?

On every flight there are white-knuckle flyers, and to them every bump, jolt, fart or vibration the aircraft makes is a sure indication it is/was about to crash and burn.

Ignore the troublesome MF'ers for crissake, or invent a standard letter to humour them. Use your imagination, but don't waste our goddamn time. :mad:

Radar

9th Nov 2003, 11:39

maxalt

...and, my feathered friend, those 'white-knuckle' 'MF'ers' are paying part of your wages. You'ld like a few of them to keep coming back occasionally, I presume. What a pity the great unwashed appear to ruin an otherwise great life. :hmm:

ceedee

9th Nov 2003, 15:32

Sounds to me like a mid-air handbrake turn.
Or a FO reliving the last trip to Alton Towers?

Did you spot any flightcrew wearing baseball caps the wrong way round?

tee hee :-)

Pub User

9th Nov 2003, 17:53

maxalt

further to Radar's comments.

I would suggest those people pay ALL your wages, and those of your colleagues, both in the air and on the ground.

A simple PA would help reduce the nervousness of those who still have a fear of flying (at least 50% of the passengers). It would also save the valuable time of both you and your Fleet Captain.

maxalt

9th Nov 2003, 18:50

I would suggest those people pay ALL your wages

What they pay for is to be conveyed from A to B by air. I do my job by getting them there and don't feel the slightest need to feel personally grateful to them for deciding they fancy a weekend in Amsterdam. Or to humour their phobia about flying.

Bums on seats...thats all they are...as Mike O'L would say...the rest is just bollixology.

As to the suggestion of a PA every time we hit a burble of CAT, get a ripple of wake, or move the speedbrake lever...oh yeah...I can just see that flight deck.

1010:05 "Ladies and Gentlemen, there is absolutely nothing to be alarmed at. Thank you."

1012:05 "Ladies and Gentlemen, there is absolutely nothing to be alarmed at. Thank you."

1015:05 "Ladies and Gentlemen, there is absolutely nothing to be alarmed at. Thank you."

Result....Alarm and Panic at the nutcase flying the a/c.

slingsby

9th Nov 2003, 19:42

As common with alot of other airlines, the cabin crew have a standard turbulence PA, let them deal with the situation as they see fit. If the seat belt signs go on, then they do the PA, end of story. If you explained every bump and swerve, jolt and bang (most of which are ignored by pilots) you'd be on the PA every five minutes.

Generally, when we are trundling over the far east, nearly every flight has some pretty fair turbulence, especially with the CBs down that way, it's seat belts on, hold on tight, concentrate, reconfigure if necessary and order more coffee. I understand and am sympathetic to nervous pax, but I'm not going to be on the PA every five minutes interupting the films.

Back to question involved, sounded like you may have passed through someones wake turbulence, it does happen but there is nothing to be concerned about, you missed him didn't you?

broadreach

9th Nov 2003, 20:05

Gofer doesn't sound like a white-knuckle passenger, just someone interested enough to ask a question.

The question seems to have been partially answered but would a sudden slew due to wake turbulence provoke something sounding like a "solid bang" on a 319?

I'm just thinking of the fairly horrendous sounds generated by an airframe in heavy turbulence, many of which could be described as solid bangs. Since they're continuous one associates them directly with the turbulence but a single "whack" in an otherwise smooth flight might, in isolation, seem more ominous.

maxalt

10th Nov 2003, 01:09

Why doesn't he just write to the Fleet Captain then...give the git something to do and make him feel needed.:hmm:

gofer

10th Nov 2003, 03:51

I was trained NOT to answer back, but in your case I'll make an exception and rise to the bait. Remember you have achieved what you wanted, to drive a good fare paying PAX from your airline - as I'm elephantine in remembring things that got my goat. :yuk:

1) My company has regularly spent at least US$ 50K on tickets for my transportation for the last 10 year, and many of those dollars went to RTW's and complex nested D class fares so as to get the most bang for our buck.

2) Since keeping score from 1. Jan.94 I'm @ over 700 flights, and an annual in air time between 200 and 1000 hours (av. leg time this year on 68 legs so far is 4h 28m). I have been flying regularly for over 50 years, am around my 7th or 8th of 9 lives flying, did PPL training, and my Godfather, Uncle & Son-in-Law were/are all commercial pilots, my father was an aeronautical engineer. To crown it all my daughter is a Senior Purser and been for over 10 years.

3) I know what bad weather looks & feels like and have seen ashen faced cabin crew before - but usually they will talk when spoken to calmly and analytically. I have been flying A-319's, as SFL, since 1997.

4) Most of the CRM focused Flight crew (CRM in the commercial sense of Customer Relationship Management - not yours) do oftern make an announcement when something unexpected happens, even if it is bad news. This is however much more common now than 20 years ago.

Pure tangent that I can't resist. A recent case I had was a very out of breath Capt. who had just run to the back of the aircraft and back - who apologised for the alarm and the fact that a PAX had insisted on testing the smoke detector in the rear toilet - he managed to make light of it while still informing of the penalties and that the PAX would be handed over to the police on landing - He was.

NoD Thankyou for a plausable suggestion - was it your flight ?? - Anyway I'll write it off to that for now. :D

Slingsby Agree entirely when it is standard turbulance, a one time sideways jolt that skids the whole aircraft enough to require visible course correction, I think not. :D

Broadreach Those kind words most appreciated - Each aircraft has its own collection of funny squeeks and thuds, and serious turbulance can get some fabulous grindings and groans that the Aircraft was certainly built to withstand - its just the bang from the blue that reminds you that flying isn't totally foolproof or absolutely 2 million % safe yet, and that you might just be mortal, after all. :D

Radar & Pub User You are so right - we do pay all the airline staff wages - and I don't begrudge most of the staff their portion, but if there were any tips going around mine would go to the unsung hero's in the hangars that fix them and check them at the most stupid hours, so that the crew and the SLF can fly safely. :D

As far as I'm concerned - subject closed, unless somebody has a better idea than Nigel's - mail me if you prefer discretion guaranteed - I'm not reporting anything to management - they usually are most of the problem, unfortunately.;)

hobie

10th Nov 2003, 05:59

gofer ..... I thought your post a perfectly reasonable question and expected you to only get perfectly reasonable replies ...... but of course we don't live in a perfect world !!!!

as an aside, in all my years of flying around this world of ours I've experienced two flights I would rather forget ...... on one occasion the Skipper announced during a NYK/LHR flight that there was nothing he could do but that the Aircraft was completely capable of handling the very rough time we were experiencing and that we just had to ride it out ........ on another occasion after a dramatic approach/landing into LHR we were advised by the Skipper that if it was any consolation to us, it was the worst landing he had ever experienced also !!!!

these words of wisdom from the flight deck certainly went down well with me ....

cheers ..... hobie

Postman Plod

10th Nov 2003, 06:16

Gofer,

Seem to remember experiencing a similar situation to yours on the way back from Greece this year - Loud bang, slew, silent passengers. Captain came over the tannoy and said it was wake turbulance. Kinda felt like we had run something over!

Sick Squid

10th Nov 2003, 06:37

I hit the wake of a preceding 320 about a week ago on the way to somewhere in Europe, (they all blend into one) ..... was just one very quick, but fairly large bump.... got on the PA, told the pax exactly what it was, exactly how far ahead the aircraft was, and that it was the aerial equivalent of running over one of those infernal speed-bumps so beloved of UK county-councils at 30 miles an hour.

Everyone happy. Passengers are adults, they are in an environment they do not understand, one in which they would LIKE to have control, but don't. Treat them like adults, give them the facts, and they are happy... and that applies to ALL aspect of flight, delays, tech. problems whatever. Honesty really is the best policy.

bizflyer

10th Nov 2003, 07:21

Hobie - "on another occasion after a dramatic approach/landing into LHR we were advised by the Skipper that if it was any consolation to us, it was the worst landing he had ever experienced also !!!!"

This will sound like a nothing to you guys but I'd like tell you about one of my experiences as - from a passengers point of view - I guess it's relevant to this thread. I was on a flight (BA 744) JFK/PHL (Can't remember) to LHR around this time last year, as we crossed the Irish Sea and started descent PA along the lines of ETA and "we're expecting a bumpy ride into LHR", what actually transpired scared me and from the look on they're faces - the cabin crew too (I've taken enough flights to know).

In summary we had what I thought was severe turbulence all the way down or at least it seemed like it, huge bumps, shaking cabin, flaps going down and up! engines screaming, passengers screaming (I could deal with everything else it was the passengers screaming that really made me twitchy) this all continued all the way into LHR - the last 60 seconds of the flight were particularly disconcerting as we were getting thrown up and down at a v.low altitude, we landed well off center and as the wheels touched I had a clear view down (our) runway from my window over the wing! Rapid correction and what seemed like particularly heavy braking & RT followed by this announcement...."ladies and gentleman etc etc thank you for flying BA, I'd like to apologise for our lack of finesse during the approach and landing, I'm sure you will all appreciate that our number one priority is to get the aircraft and passengers on the ground safely and in one piece, if it's any consolation we are as relieved to be on the ground as you are! Once again thanks for flying BA, safe onward journey etc etc”

I’ve had plenty of comfortable flights and a few uncomfortable flights but as far as I'm concerned - and this one was no exception - they were all 'good' flights with incredibly professional crews. I like to be kept informed by the guys up front and a bit of advance warning is always welcome if things are going to be rough, even a short 'sorry about that but alls well and nothing to be worried about' after the event, but unless this particular captain has an incredibly dry sense of humour, I'm not sure I want to know how relieved he was to still be alive afterwards! Anyway, whatever the conditions - serious respect to all the guys sit up front and deal with whatever comes their way.

Solo Hire

10th Nov 2003, 07:57

Would just like to encourage all you CPL's that a little PA goes a long way.

I was in the back of a B737 on a perfect flying night over Europe recently at FL35ish, when we had a bit of a bang. I'm only a PPL, and it felt like wake turbulance... but then there followed quite a bit of auto (presume) throttle activity which gotme wondering. Thanks to the captain for a prompt announcement.

The other thing that gets us PAX sometimes is an abrupt altitude capture, esp when it's on a SID - it makes your stomach go if you're not expecting it, and then the engines run back aswell!

Keep up the good work!

DC10RealMan

10th Nov 2003, 16:01

Sometimes it doesnt need a member of the crew to calm nervous passengers down. On the approach to LHR a few years ago, I was a passenger when the aircraft took a lightning strike, Loud Bang!!, the five year old kid sitting with his parents in the seat in front leaps to his feet and in a loud voice says "What the f**k was that!!!. Cabin dissolves in to laughter. Exit mortified parents.

trytofly

10th Nov 2003, 16:09

maxalt

you are a complete and utter baffoon..!!!!! You are exactly the
self inflated and opinionated pratt that gives all us professional pilots bad names. Not only is an airline pilot supposed to be able to drive an aircraft...he has a duty of care to his customers...and if
he values the industry he is in and the company he works for he
would not feel inclined to ridicule customers when they feel the need to ask perfectly reasonable questions. These customers may not be blessed with the same knowledge that you have about this flying stuff.... but how many times have you quizzed the doctor or dentist during your visits?? I bet they don't tell you to take a hike !!
I bet your colleagues love a day out with you...AAAAAAAAAARGGG.

u is a dipstick

Groundloop

10th Nov 2003, 16:32

You should excuse Maxalt his tirade. He was only following his Ryanair SOPs re customer service and care.

BRISTOLRE

10th Nov 2003, 16:57

BA A319
Was on a BA319 LHR-MUC recently and suffered a similar 2 second jolt and bang whilst climbing away on a Dover departure in clear Wx.
FO immediately came on and apologised for getting too far to the aircraft infront which was a BA B757!

Even more recently was on a LH A320 LHR-MUC again in clear Wx and suffered a similar jolt and bang but this time no PA announcement. I knew this was casued by Royal Jordanian A340 that we had just departed from LHR behind!
With that in mind, obvious it was a bit of wake turb.

One "frequent" SLF whom I was sat next to said "Is it me or are these Airbuses more succeptable to turbulence"? I agreed and commented that I have had better rides on B73's & B75's.

simfly

10th Nov 2003, 17:05

Whilst in the cruise somewhere over the Midlands, flying Glasgow-Turin, had similar encounter. Sitting in the back of a 757, when it suddenly started to bounce about then a sudden drop, but what concerned me was the rather large force pushing me sideways to the left and almost knocking my old man out of his seat (he didn't move much from the force, bit more mass in that one!!). Then engines sounded like they were brought back to idle. belt up sign immediately on, and cabin crew running about looking concerned. Captain came on p/a and said it was just the a/c going from one air mass with wind in one direction, to another air mass with wind opposite way (or possibly coming out of jetstream at right angle??). Anyway, descended to smoother air and had a great ski hol thereafter!! :ok:

BahrainLad

10th Nov 2003, 17:19

Just taken-off from Larnaca on a BA 777 on the way to Bahrain during the most recent Gulf War earlier this year.

About 10 mins after depature, a large sudden onset of turbulence.

A number of worried faces as we were on our way into the 'hot' zone.

But then quick as a flash "Ladies and Gentlemen, that bump you felt was the wake turbulence from a passing aircraft. I repeat, wake turbulence from a passing aircraft."

I have to admit that there's nothing quite like the soothing voice of a Nigel to reassure even the most experienced of fliers.

maxalt

10th Nov 2003, 18:22

Hi there 'trytofly' (good name...keep trying). What is a "baffoon"?
Tripped over your finger trying to get it out did you?

Seems to be a lot of nervous flyers on this thread.
I guess you all come here looking for reassurance as to the steely character of us heroes who transport you around the globe. Yes, its true, we are not ordinary mortals. Its why you love us so much. ;)

So forgive us if we cannot get inside your terrorised minds to reassure you every time we hit a little bump!
And NOTE...I always said 'little bump'...if the engine just fell off, I promise, I'll let you know...and I'll give you such a soothing PA you'll just pop straight off to sleep again while I handle the beast. Either that or I'll be sure to advise you to kiss your ass goodbye.:p :D

If you're so scared, maybe you should all consider taking the train or a boat next time.

BRISTOLRE

10th Nov 2003, 18:39

Nervous fliers ?
We seem to have hit a few nerves on this thread, I agree.
Its no so much being nervous but folks back there dont like getting chucked and thrown about when in rough weather or encountering wake turbulence nobody really knows the outcome, it could get better or worsen.

I think it's this psychological thing of passengers and the "wanting to be in control" feeling but sitting strapped into a seat being unable to control that environment causes the unease.

maxalt

10th Nov 2003, 18:48

Hi BRISTOLRE.
Anyone who dislikes "getting chucked and thrown about when in rough weather or encountering wake turbulence..." would probably also be terrified of waves, so maybe taking the boat isn't an option either. Perhaps they'd be best just staying at home wrapped up in their cosy little bed and dreaming about that dirty weekend in Amsterdam.:}

"I think it's this psychological thing of passengers and the "wanting to be in control" feeling but sitting strapped into a seat being unable to control that environment causes the unease."

You've hit the nail on the head. Its also the reason why they drink too much, and/or pop pills before a flight and then create havoc on board by their bad behaviour, which I've seen ranging from simple constant abuse of Cabin Crew right up to nutters attacking other passengers. The cigarette thing is another example of their utter lack of self control when faced with being locked in a metal tube doing 500mph at 35000 ft. They just lose the plot.

But hey...when pilots are in industrial dispute, what do those self same weiners say?
'Its an easy job...they get paid too much already'. :E :mad:

pulse1

10th Nov 2003, 19:44

You've hit the nail on the head. Its also the reason why they drink too much, and/or pop pills before a flight and then create havoc on board by their bad behaviour, which I've seen ranging from simple constant abuse of Cabin Crew right up to nutters attacking other passengers. The cigarette thing is another example of their utter lack of self control when faced with being locked in a metal tube doing 500mph at 35000 ft. They just lose the plot.

If these are typical Ryannair passengers, and if maxalt is a typical Ryannair pilot, I shall certainly not be using them.

Pity really as I was thinking of giving them a try for my monthly flight to Sweden.

EDDNHopper

10th Nov 2003, 20:06

Off the original topic, I would like to draw your attention to a thread
"Do you trust your pilot´s voice?" on this forum end of october, re PAs.

maxalt:

Its also the reason why they drink too much...
They just lose the plot.

Millions of pax, all "they" and "them"!
Isn´t it a comfort to know that "WE" stay sober while all "them" give "US" such hard times?

trytofly:

how many times have you quizzed the doctor or dentist during your visits??

Very well put!

keithl

10th Nov 2003, 20:37

I know I shouldn't really react, but it's a quiet morning before my next sim trip (how I wish maxalt were my next customer).
If Maxalt is not just trying to wind us all up, then his attitude is out of all order. Taken with the "smoking on the flight deck" thread, I get such a bad impression of Ryanair attitudes that I will certainly not be flying with them any time.
If you are just winding us up - look at the effect you've produced and stop it!!

UNCTUOUS

10th Nov 2003, 20:55

.
......and tripping over someone else's happy trails......

The greater incidence of bumps and jolts in the cruise probably has more to do with RVSM intro - than anything else. Wake turbulence persistence at height is greater (than at lower levels) and the air is being displaced at knots TAS. That's also happening at a much higher AoA if you are cruising fuel-efficiently. Those vortices tend to be stronger and more vocal at high AUW's and higher AoA's. Tracking accuracy of most of the traffic cruising at those levels would also mean that the random mean scatter of traffic to the left and right is also minimal....so the likelihood of a jolt is magnified manifold.

At height, "wake" can easily settle (downwards) that mere 1000ft and so be "oft felt" (whereas previously it would only go that far and not a lot further - and notwithstanding its persistence, NOT be felt - when there was 2000ft height separation at RVSM altitudes).

Ergo we all tend to hit each other's happy trails more often than may have been the case five years ago. So what? Well, come the A380, it may be necessary for ATC to think of an alternate to RVSM height follow-ups - otherwise following traffic is going to be frequently bumbling into something more than just the odd irritating jolt of preceding traffic. A wake-induced upset at coffin corner might just end up with a 737 rudder type accident (pilot with stick back in gut desperately seeking to raise the nose of a momentarily [but now permanently] stalled airfoil.

Met a Chinee chap who did that to a 747 SP. The airplane looked much the worse for wear. He'd have been better off allowing itself to seek its own equilibrium. There's probably a few Scud pilots around who'd agree that it (wake) can become a much magnified self-induced problem..., when you're caught by surprise.

Not much chance to turn on the seat-belt lights either. Pax who get seriously thrown about the cabin tend to not fly again unless they have to - and probably by choice, not with your company.

Man Flex

10th Nov 2003, 21:31

I am aware of an incident a couple of years ago involving an Airbus and a crossing 744. The autopilot tripped out and the aircraft rolled 40 degrees left not once but twice within a few seconds. In flight conditions up until this point had been as smooth as silk. This occurred in RVSM airspace.

PAXboy

10th Nov 2003, 22:06

Unctuous The greater incidence of bumps and jolts in the cruise probably has more to do with RVSM intro - than anything else.

This makes sense. In the past 25 years, we PAX have all got used to smooth cruising, mainly due (I think) to the development of smart WX radar. Not to mention that airlines have learnt that nauseated pax tend to blame the airline not the weather!

RVSM might take us back to the kind of bumpy rides that we had in the 60s and 70s. That's if my ancient memory serves me well!

Stockpicker

10th Nov 2003, 23:56

Having enjoyed an evening at dinner with a whole bunch of BA FO's, I can only say that the timbre of the voice must be a recruitment factor - listening to a large group of them all together is quite uncanny (not unpleasant though ...;) ) Even the lady pilots (what's the term? Nigella?) sound as though they take honey in their morning tea!

More seriously, though, folks, can I put in my two ha'porth from another SLF - feel free to tell us anything you can about what's going on - flying's fascinating, and part of the thrill of it is understanding what's going on as much as possible.

As for Maxalt - I can also confirm that his rants have put me even further off ever flying Ryanair - it's at the stage now where I'll choose a different destination if I have to!

Globaliser

11th Nov 2003, 00:30

To this piece of SLF, it sounds like another good reason for an official policy of (random?) track offset. At first glance, I would never have thought there were so many disadvantages in accurate navigation.

maxalt

11th Nov 2003, 00:48

More Bollixology! Nobody chooses to fly Ryanair because of the sound of my voice...or anyone elses.

The reason we are the biggest airline in europe is we are CHEAP.

People like you 'Stockpicker' (a City Broker type I bet) are completely out of touch with the ordinary punter. Obviously you can afford to pay the inflated premium for a Sloaney accent on your BA flight, but don't imagine everyone else is.
Wake up and smell the bullsh1t.

BRUpax

11th Nov 2003, 01:10

The only thing that's CHEAP about your airline maxalt is YOU and YOUR BOSS:mad: . Could even be that you and he are one and the same :yuk: .

maxalt

11th Nov 2003, 01:22

Hehehe...sticks and stones BRUpax.
If only I was de boss...a few squillion quid excuses all ones personality failings, eh?:p

trytofly

11th Nov 2003, 02:54

Ha ha ha.....
and I guess you especially would need a few million to excuse all of yours !!!

u is still a dipstick

maxalt

11th Nov 2003, 06:44

I bask in your reflected glory.

TaTa.

:cool:

Stockpicker

11th Nov 2003, 16:25

Oh, maxalt, what IS it with you? I suspect most of the other readers of this realised that my comments were made light-heartedly ... couldn't you have taken them in the same vein?

Your lightning deduction is almost correct - I don't recommend stocks (that's what a stockbroker does) - I actually invest real money in them. It's therefore my job to understand as well as possible what is happening to market sentiment (I'm reluctant to talk about "average punter", in my experience there's no such thing!) and my concern is simply that Ryanair, which is already facing challenges on many fronts (market saturation, competition, high fuel costs, legal challenges from Brussels etc) is going to be getting no help at all from an attitude like yours, because, like it or not, you're in a service industry. Mike O'Leary has done brilliantly well so far, and I enjoy meeting with him when he comes in to talk to us about the business, but in general, he knows where to draw the line with his robust pronouncements.

Oh, and it's probably more accurate to refer to Ryanair as Europe's largest low fares airline - at least, that's how they referred to themselves in yesterday's press announcement.

slingsby

11th Nov 2003, 16:30

On the subject of Ryanair, how does a carrier style landing into Stansted sound? My one and only flight ended with, lets say that I have never had such a horrendous drop and impact with the runway. Yes I said impact, it was that bad. BTW, weather was good, light wind and no preceeding traffic. As we taxied in what remained of the aircraft, the first officer came on the PA and apologised for the hard landing, the runway was higher than he expected and was different to when he landed here last. You could here the smirk in his voice as he finished his PA.
Now, is this the kind of PA you want to hear?

Mind you, when we disembarked, the Captain was berating the FO with some very choice language and questioning his flying ability.

Just remember when knocking other pilots, they passed the same exams and training as you. As for airline knocking, are you sure your airline is better than the rest. I'm amazed how quickly this debate about PA's descended into an airline/personal knocking thread. :D