Apaches in fog .... oops!

[Heliport]

The Tennessean
Fog prompts 2 Army helicopters to land beside I-65

Two Longbow Apache helicopters were forced to land in a grassy area next to Interstate 65 in Sumner County yesterday when fog became too thick for pilots to fly.

Both aircraft came from the 13th Aviation at Hunter Air Force Base in Savannah, Ga., and were headed to Fort Campbell.

The 4 p.m. landing caused many motorists to rubberneck and slow down, so the Tennessee Highway Patrol dispatched a trooper to the scene to help traffic and assist the pilots if necessary.

''The fog came in so fast we had to land quickly,'' said Lt. Matt Cole, a West Point graduate who piloted one of the choppers. ''I only have about 80 hours in the air,'' Cole said about his experience. ''So this was pretty exciting.''

''When the weather moved in, and the fog moved in — with a multimillion-dollar aircraft, you set it down,'' said George Heath, spokesman for the Fort Campbell Army post.

The Apache is the Army's premier attack helicopter, Heath said. ''It does not have the sophisticated instrumentation for long-range bad weather flying.'' Two pilots were in each chopper, he said.

Fort Campbell officials dispatched military police to guard the aircraft. Heath said the choppers will leave when the fog lifts, which may be this morning.

[Old Man Rotor]

A very sound and just, Command Decision.

[Bronx]

I guess when they get home they might be asked a few tough questions about how they got themselves into a position where they had to make that "very sound and just, Command Decision".

[Robbo Jock]

I've got over 80 hours in the air. Can I have an Apache ?
Pleasepleaseplease, can I can I pleeeeeeese ?

[handyandyuk]

I've only got 79 hours in me book..... does that limit me to non longbows?

All jokes aside... it's good to see someone who, even though he flies something as big and shiney as an Apache, he has the balls to admit that the conditions are too bad to fly.

[Thomas coupling]

What a load of Bo**cks. Arguably the most advanced helo in the world and it's been given to a kindergarten kid who panics at the sight of a cloud, BECAUSE THIS $3,0000000000 A/C DOESN'T HAVE AUTO PILOT :yuk: :8 :ooh:

Great ad lads, why should the world tremble?

[RDRickster]

Since he obviously isn't instrument rated, he made the right decision. In fact, I doubt he's even finished WOFT with only 80 hours. He was probably doing some cross-country training.

[Rich Lee]

To fly instruments within US controlled airspace you must have approved equipment, a weather briefing, meet minimum approach weather requirements, IFR fuel reserves, current publications and a current and approved pilot.

This Apache was equipped with two Inertial Navigation Units (Embedded GPS, strap down ring laser gyro, doppler. and a highly integrated air data system). It is equipped with a moving map display with stick, chart, dig map, and satellite displays (1:50, 1:100, 1:250, 1:500, 1:1000). In addition it has individual pilot and CPG FLIR. No autopilot but both attitude and altitude hold (with hover capability).

Although capable of flying point to point in instrument conditions, the Apache is not considered qualified for flight in the civil airspace system (except in an emergency) nor is it qualified for a zero/zero approach.

I concur with this pilots decision to land. I believe that this pilot has 80 hours in the Apache, not 80 hours total time.

[Red Wine]

Bet it don't have a compass though!!!!

[FJJP]

Thomas Coupling

To give you the right to make smart a**se derogatory comments means you must be one of the most highly qualified and experienced helicopter pilots in the world. I therefore salute you as a world class expert. (I thought the police helios were only flown in VMC??). How many of us have been in the situation where fog suddenly formed around you? I have - twice - in 36 years of military flying. And it was scary.

Doesn't matter what the equipment fit is on the aircraft...

He's new to the aircraft, clearly under training...

He took the safest option and removed the hazard to human life by landing immediately...

Now convince me that what he did was worthy of your derisory words.

[Thomas coupling]

:E

With all that equipment on board Rich I'm surprised he didn't have a fog horn too:p

Of course he did the right thing - he's made of the right stuff isn't he?

Bit embarrassing though to say the least. Hope they made him stand guard until it cleared.

[ShyTorque]

Been there, done that and the old saying "better to be down here wishing I was up there" than vice versa is always true where fog is concerned.

I can't land in fog either and I'll wager my aircraft is a fair bit more capable than TC's.

Perhaps this is just a wind up or he has developed X-Ray eyes from staring at his computer screen for too long ;)

[Bronx]

Sorry, I'm not buying it.
These guys were mil pilots flying multimillion-dollar mil helos not PPL's flying R22's.
They ended up parking Apaches at the side of the Interstate.

Sure weather can close in quick. Sure good call AFTER they'd gotten themselves in that position. BUT, they shouldn't have gotten that far in the first place.

Didn't they plan diversion airfields?
Nashville International is only a couple of minutes about 15 nm S from where they put down on the Interstate.

They screwed up just like any of us can some time and they did good not carrying on and I'm sorry for them, but heroes they ain't. They screwed up.

[Lu Zuckerman]

I was driving through Idaho on my way to Seattle and looking down the road which had a slight downward slope I spotted a lot of police cars and a few civilian cars about a half a mile down slope. When I arrived at the group of cars I was surprised to see two Piper Malibu’s’ parked off the road. I was a bit confused by this sight but I kept on driving. Upon my return through the same area I stopped at the Sheriffs’ office and inquired as to the two airplanes. He told me that it happens quite often. Aircraft would call into the local ATC and advise them that the fog level was too high and the mountains were buried somewhere in the fog bank. The ATC would call the Sheriffs’ office and they would block off highway 90 allowing the aircraft to land unrestricted on the highway.

:E :E

[SASless]

Hey Bronx......

If we use your standards....I am just one big screw-up!

I have parked helicopters all over this great land of ours....one can only push so hard to get through and then it gets to be time to park. I have been so lost that it took walking to the street corner to read the street names before I could find myself. The Pacific Northwest can be a bit challenging for the "Get after it" types.

Personally, I prefer Pub parking lots in the UK to Walmarts and Interstate medians....however when it gets foggy....and by foggy I mean when you cannot hover up the pole or tower and cross over to the other side to hover back down....well it just means it is time to park.

I would never accuse these guys of using poor judgement....the US Army littered Vietnam with Hueys due to accidents caused by flying in bad weather. Inexperienced crews and bad weather are a rather fatal combination I think.

[RDRickster]

Exactly... these guys just saved a bit on our taxes by not balling it up. So, they shouldn't be villified. Hero's... perhaps not, but someone taught them good decision making skills.

[Letsby Avenue]

I'm afraid TCs comments are all to typical of ex RN Police Pilots (not all, but a lot) who think Military and not Civvy when flogging around the bazars - I have lost count of the amount of experienced pilots who a) get into situations their experience should not have got them into, such as flying into cloud, fog etc without a rating and then b) compounding the problem by not landing in the nearest field when they realise that IMC is imminent but flog into said weather at low level whilst frantically trying to dial up some one with a radar, settle down on instruments and worrying about that icing level... Step two is of course landing upside down some 45 seconds later....

TC would of course never do this - but a fair few do!

The Apache crew were spot on.

[My names Turkish]

Theres always someone who will make comments on others Judgement calls. It is sad to say that these idiots can often often make a safe pilot feel like they have made a less "Manly" call, and pressure an otherwise safe pilot to make unsafe decisions in the future for fear of looking over cautious. As a recently qualified low time Pilot I have had this, and yes sometimes maybe not the right decisions made on my part. If theres something that makes me feel uneasy I just say no. I'd rather go on the side of caution and be on the ground learning these things.

I think they made the right decision.

<<Edited, to remove remark mentioned below. Was not refering to anyone in Particular, just an attitude, sorry to have caused a fuss>>

[Labpilot]

I would hope that TC's comments are simply a wind up, and I think SASLESS is spot on. Anyone who's been there knows what it's like to have the seat cushion embedded.

Regardless as to whether the aircraft is legal to fly in civy airspace, in a jam you do what you have to. I don't think the Apache is known for its long legs, so perhaps they didn't have IFR fuel.

For Bronx
Having an airfield 15 miles away is useless if you're hover taxying along a highway; it could be over and hour away! And leaving the relative safety of the highway (masts etc) to strike off cross-country would have been riskier, IMHO.


I say well done.:ok:

LP

[Heliport]

Turkish

Neither TC nor Bronx are idiots. Far from it. They're expressing opinions in a discussion forum.

No-one's suggested the two Apache pilots should have pressed on in bad weather. There is a suggestion, right or wrong, that they should have diverted earlier.

[Thomas coupling]

Inadvertent IMC at our unit is not an option. In ten years of police flying in some very inhospitable terrain, it has only happened twice - both times by relief pilots!


The point I'm trying to get over is that here we have a very advanced helo (Apache) and presumably they don't hand them over to monkeys to drive them.
Add the two together [top of the pile helo and top of the class driver] and this situation SHOULD, repeat SHOULD be a non event.
The pilot should KNOW where he/she is, simply climb to a safe alt, pick up radar and get a talk down to the nearest base.

What happens to Apaches in the 'fog' of war ?

Therefore, my only conclusion is that because he/she landed, either:
He/she was low on fuel.
He/she didn't know what services were available when things turned nasty.
He/she wasn't IMC trained.
The a/c couldn't hack IMC with approved recoveries.


Draw your own conclusions

[ron-powell]

Hello TC:

>Therefore, my only conclusion is that because he/she landed, either:
>He/she was low on fuel.
>He/she didn't know what services were available when things turned nasty.
>He/she wasn't IMC trained.
>The a/c couldn't hack IMC with approved recoveries.

Having parked a few helicopters around in odd places myself, due to un-forecast weather, I do sympathize with them and I also follow your points.

I also think flight lead will probably get a good grilling about the planning and whether the actual and forecast weather was acceptable.

The choices I see they had were:

Land - If they land, they're safe with a little embarrassment
Divert/turn around - If they thought about diverting, did they have fuel to the nearest fuel location? Maybe the only, and closest fuel available to them was at their destination.
Try to maintain VMC in IMC conditions - If they try to maintain VMC, well we already know this is a pilot killer situation.
Climb up and go IFR - If they elect to climb into IFR conditions and contact the nearest ATC facility, are they ready for this transition? It's also a two aircraft formation, which compounds the problem.

Being able to land anywhere, for any reason, is one of our great advantages over airplanes. They did the simplest and safest thing. That's my conclusion.

Ron Powell

[Steve76]

It must've been bad because if you can't fly IFR in the USA then you won't have a **** show elsewhere.
What with all that radar and Cat II's you don't even need the plates you just get vectored down to minimums........;)

[Flingwing207]

Let's put it all in perspective here, gang - you have two multi-gazillion-dollar helicopters on a training flight (not a shooting war).

At least one of those ships is being flown by a pilot with only "about 80 hours in the air". That's the way the Army is doing it these days - training their pilots to the PPL level in TH-57s, then continuing their training in the aircraft they will be flying operationally.

Why are you criticizing a low-hour pilot for electing to land instead of going into IMC, especially when that pilot was not prepared to fly IFR?

It seems smarter to land with a 100% chance of taking heat than to keep flying with a 10% chance of inadvertant cumulo-granite.

Call me chicken.

[Arm out the window]

I fully agree, flingwing.
80 hrs is the key - the pilot is obviously at a very early stage in his or her career by anyone's standards; these machines are v. expensive and capable, but the operators are at all points in a spectrum of experience.
Probably been sent out on a supposedly straightforward VFR navex, struck some deteriorating Wx (and who could say they have never done the same) and then had the good sense not to press on in a bad situation.
Anyone remember the flying safety poster about a timely 180? It could just as easily be about a timely precautionary landing - much easier in a helo than a fixed wing.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

I am among the ranks of those who have temporarily parked helicopters all over the countryside when the weather was worse than forecast. And I have great sympathy (more than some of you non-aviators, obviously) for other pilots who do the same.

For instance, TC states:The point I'm trying to get over is that here we have a very advanced helo (Apache) and presumably they don't hand them over to monkeys to drive them.
Add the two together [top of the pile helo and top of the class driver] and this situation SHOULD, repeat SHOULD be a non event.It *WAS* a non-event, you ****. Only the media and you lot are turning it into something it was not. ...A helicopter landing by the side of the road in deteriorating weather? *YAWN* What else is new?The pilot should KNOW where he/she is, simply climb to a safe alt, pick up radar and get a talk down to the nearest base.

What happens to Apaches in the 'fog' of war ?

Therefore, my only conclusion is that because he/she landed, either:
He/she was low on fuel.
He/she didn't know what services were available when things turned nasty.
He/she wasn't IMC trained.
The a/c couldn't hack IMC with approved recoveries.TC's "conclusions" are pretty presumptuous and shallow. We have no idea what their mission was or what this particular exercise was, where they departed from, nor the particular route they were taking to their destination. There's plenty of other stuff we don't know either. But none of it matters anyway.

I'm sure they knew where they were. That's about all I'm sure of. Other than that, the Apache pilots' situation interests me not. In fact, I've already forgotten about it.

[B Sousa]

Many years flying in the Arfmy and I agree they made the correct decision. The guy is a Ring Knocker (West Point) so hes gonna be a General anyway. Glad to see someone like that making those decisions. I have also landed all over the place rather than press on. Weather is funny and "its not nice to mess with Mother Nature...." as the saying goes. Last year I landed three different times down Louisiana way because of Fog, Scud whatever. You meet nice folks who come out and offer you coffee etc...How do you think those Farmers Daughters Jokes got going.
He probably only had 80 hours in the Aircraft, but had much more in the logs. Flight School alone as I recall was at least 210 (33 Years ago) All leaving Flight School are Instrument rated, just some of the Aircraft are not.
I lost a good friend in a Cobra in Vietnam who pressed on and made his mark where the Fog met Terra Firma. Lost another in Hawaii a couple years ago. These decisions are necessary and I do hope that he gets nothing more than a well done.

P.S. Im betting based on his profile Bronx is one of those NYPD boys with a budget that would choke a horse. They can go to FSI, have all those IFR flights in the sim and quite frankly never get mud on thier shoes. 412 with toys is better equipped for that than an Apache.
Again Well done to the Apache Drivers.

[Thomas coupling]

Prudey fart: I thought you'd shrivelled up and died. After that pasting everyone gave you a while back.

Good to see you're back.... and back on form, too.

Watch your six sweetheart.

[Joker's Wild]

TC. obviously a prat, not worthy of rebuttal.

Our lads in question did the right thing, full stop. Last time I checked, nobody EVER was shat upon for not bending an airframe.

If we as an industry of "professionals" are still having this type of discussion, then I dare say the accident rate will continue to remain constant, as we obviously have stopped learning from others mistakes.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

TC:Prudey fart: I thought you'd shrivelled up and died. After that pasting everyone gave you a while back.

Good to see you're back.... and back on form, too.

Watch your six sweetheart.You know Thomas, you'd be a LOT more interesting (and relevant) if you'd get a rotorcraft rating and actually have something constructive to contribute.

And which "pasting" are you referring to? That one about the guy in the 47 who flew an annoyingly shallow approach to an airport with well-known noise-sensitivity issues and then tried to convince everyone that it was in fact NOT an annoyingly shallow approach? So "everyone" gave me a pasting over that one, eh? Oh yeah.

Oh...and "watch your six?" What is that, some sort of veiled threat?

Grow up.

[High Nr]

Your like an exwife, [which I am sure you are one]......a big mouth with stuff all else.

If your on a come back, then think again dick.

[Nigd3]

Foe what its worth, I think they made the right decision in the end. So what If they cocked up on mission/flight preperation, send them for some extra schooling and them make them clean the ****houses out so they dont forget it!!!! You cant retrain a dead pilot.

Better we are discussing the failings on their planning and their "embarassing" landing than starting a thread off with "our condolences to.......................................

PpruneFan 1 - I aint gonna slag you off because I have read a lot of your threads and tried to take the meaning from what you write, funnily enough much of it I agree with, but to anonymously call someone a tw@t is a bit unprofesional. If someone said that to my face, I would quite happily lamp them one, not very professional either but there you go!!!!! The people who responded with similar names are not much better either.

God I'm so angelic when I read what I think:E :E

[B Sousa]

TC Writes:"The pilot should KNOW where he/she is, simply climb to a safe alt, pick up radar and get a talk down to the nearest base."

Not that easy in the Army. Aircraft NON IFR may have some ability to keep one from crashing. However entering IFR in a NON IFR Aircraft is a big no no in the rule book.
They did it right. Missions come down that sometimes you cannot forecast weather ahead. Mainly from lack of reporting stations.

[Lu Zuckerman]

I have posted this on several occasions but it may shed some light on the Apache problem discussed in this thread.

Many years ago a flight of US Army H-34s was flying in a mountain gorge in Europe. The lead pilot entered into a low cloudbank and he told the rest of the flight to come to a hover and make a 180 turn and fly out of the gorge. All but the lead pilot were in a position to see the walls of the gorge and they were able to fly out. The lead pilot came to a halt and entered into a hover.

The H-34 because of the rigging will hover tail down and left side down. The HSI reflected this position showing the pilot that he was in a climb to the left. He checked his VSI and it indicated no change in altitude. He then put on pitot heat thinking he had ice in the pitot tube. He did not know his position relative to the walls of the gorge and eventually vertigo set in and he crashed.

Had the pilot of the Apache entered the fog/cloud he too could have suffered a similar fate.


:E :E

[Thomas coupling]

You're all right...of course. I couldn't resist it though, sorry about that. Good stimulating reading.

Lu, can I have some of that, you're smoking too?:confused:

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Nigd3:but to anonymously call someone a tw@t is a bit unprofesional. If someone said that to my face, I would quite happily lamp them one...Ahh, but what if someone said that to your anonymous face? I doubt Mr. Coupling uses his real surname here on this board, and if you do, it seems unpronouncable in the English language. "Nigd3?" So if one anonymous poster calls another anonymous poster a "****," don't get your panties in a bunch. To paraphrase John Hancock speaking about King George as a tyrant, TC *is* a ****, whether we call him one or not.

Nigh Nr:Your like an exwife, [which I am sure you are one]......a big mouth with stuff all else.

If your on a come back, then think again dick.Perhaps with anger issues like that, High Nr would be more comfortable on the riotous Just Helicopters forum. It would seem to be a more appropriate place for his vitriol.

See, High Nr made it gratuitously personal. Whereas I was responding to someone (a non-pilot?) who was slagging a real pilot FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING and setting down before he crashed the ship, High Nr comes along and pastes me just for the fun of it. Nice!

For the record, I am not an ex-wife, nor do I have a big mouth. I am not on a "comeback," for I never left. I just have such disdain for most of you that, while I read these posts just long enough to put me to sleep, I'm usually disinclined to reply as over time this forum becomes less and less relevant to professional helicopter pilots. But I will happily depart this forum if the participants continue to question pilots who make proper decisions, like the Apache pilots did.

[Thomas coupling]

Prude fart: where does all this non pilot come from???????????

Don't you read profiles?

Don't wait for another thread to make the decision to leave. You should have stayed where you've been for the last few months...in the gutter.

Sad sad man - probably not had much of a career methinks, having 'tried' offshore, realised it was too difficult for you and come back to what one can only call nebulous flying...picking up scraps from tourist companies, taxi driving holiday makers around the sights, and worse for them -having to listen to you gobbing off in the front as if you've done it been it all. Only we know better don't we, prudey?

Never mind you're not far off retirement are you..then it's onto the scrap heap where you belong.

[B Sousa]

PPF#1 Writes:"I'm usually disinclined to reply as over time this forum becomes less and less relevant to professional helicopter pilots."

Brings up a good point and maybe something to start another thread on. What is a Professional Helicopter Pilot? Here in the States "Professionals" or Pros are what we use to describe Prostitutes. So I guess that may mean that we sell ourselves to fly helos.......OK, I can buy that.
OR does that mean we are above talking bad about others, courteous, brave, clean, reverant..........oops thats the boy Scouts..... Hmmm lets see.
Or is it we have time in aircraft other than Robbies....that would do it.... I dont know, maybe someone could help out....in the meantime I just tell all the Ladys. "Why Yes, I fly helicopters.." as my long white scarf blows in the breeze....

[Nigd3]

PP fan 1

Panties in a bunch. Who you been talking to? Thats a vicious rumour that was started years ago. I'm cured of that fetish..........

I for one, hope you don't F..k off from the forum, if nothing else but to chuckle as you get the pot boiling with your somewhat wacky sense of logic that you use to put your point across, rightly or wrongly.

I would still give you a slap though if you called me a tw@t !!!!!!

BS - pros are experts with choppers, how you read that is up to you.

[Lu Zuckerman]

BS - pros are experts with choppers, how you read that is up to you.


There are many definitions of the term expert but here is the real definition.

An expert is a person that knows how many sticks of dynamite must be inserted into bulls’ ass in order to blow his horns off of his head without killing the bull.

How many of you can apply that level of expertise to your jobs as helicopter pilots.


:E :E

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

Lu,

I thought X was the unknown quantity and spurt is a drip under pressure!

[Nigd3]

Lu, Giovanni

I think my poor attempt at humour has gone missed!!!!!
The inference is more on the 'chopper' and 'pro' bit. Forget about 'expert'. Read 'good with'or 'handles well' or whatever description that means similar things

:) us Brits arent known for our brilliant wit

[B Sousa]

NigD3 Writes:"BS - pros are experts with choppers, how you read that is up to you."

I knew someone would enlighten me....I have met a few experts in choppers. In fact in 33 years of flying, I have been to a couple of their funerals....They were very very good at times, its that one time.........

Lu.....Im just getting off the floor on that Bull thing.....Good One.....

[Nigd3]

BS

Me thinks there is a UK/US mis understanding of slang terms going on here.
In the UK "chopper" can be slang for a dick/penis/willy/todger/old boy/cock etc etc.

Do you realise you have 999 more posts than me????

Anyway, back to the apache thread !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ShyTorque]

I hope that the term "Professional" could be applied to some PPRuNe'rs and not to others.

A professional PPRuNer is someone who has paid Danny for a personal title.

How about it, you lot with a lot to say, quite a few posts, but only a sarcastic hint next to your usernames? Get your PayPal chequebooks out!

That might sort out those who are serious about being on the forum, from those who aren't, as I think PF#1 himself suggested. :p

[old heliman]

TC you are truly amazing...no instrument rating and an expert to boot, I have to agree with those other wise gents who say why pick on people for making a safe and wise decision by landing. Who cares about embarrasment?

As for what someone else is smoking, don't ask for it because it'll probably come right out of your ar5e like a lot of other cr*p you drivel about.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: B Sousa

An expert is a person that knows how many sticks of dynamite must be inserted into bulls’ ass in order to blow his horns off of his head without killing the bull.

Bert, I am suffering from terminal old timers disease as I forgot the punch line.

This is how it should have read: An expert is a person that knows how many sticks of dynamite must be inserted into bulls’ ass in order to blow his horns off of his head without getting the bulls eyes bloodshot.

Sorry for the confusion. Hopefully this new version does not drop you on the deck.


By the way, I have a questiion. Regarding a previous post in which you said "once one always one". One what?

:E :E

[B Sousa]

Lu "By the way, I have a questiion. Regarding a previous post in which you said "once one always one". One what?"

Once A Marine Always A Marine.