forced to pay for a type rating!

[MadDogDriver]

The modern trend in aviation of airlines demanding pilots to shoulder the training costs of getting a type specific rating is very controversial.

In the past airlines alway paid for these. It was part of their annual training budget and was considered a normal expense when hiring new pilots.
Most of today's pilots with more than 3 years of line experience never had to straight-out pay for any training. It is true they had in many cases to endure substantially lower pay for the period they where financially bonded. But not before they where guaranteed a job. First the contract, then the training, then the bonding. Today it is the complete opposite. They want you to pay now, train later and maybe in the future if they need you, they will think of hiring you.

The concept of paying for a type rating for a SPECIFIC aircraft is to me insulting. Pilots have no choice in what types airlines operate. We just want a decent job doing what we like, which is flying from A to B. If an airline wants us to commit to spending 30.000 plus euros on a type rating that limits our possibilities, they should at least give us some kind of commitment on their part too. You cannot have your cake and also eat it. If you get a 737 type rating for example, you are commited to this type and to looking for jobs at airlines that operate this type! You are actually increasing your odds of employment but at the same time narrowing your possibilities.

Another thing that is mind boggling is that most airlines not only require pilots to have type ratings but also to have TIME ON TYPE (usually at least 500Hrs) and be CURRENT in the last 3 months.
One thing is having to pay for the TR, ****ty but if you have money it is possible. Another altoghether is getting 500Hrs on type and being current. This means that you have to already be flying on this type at an airline. So what happens is that no new people get in. Pilots are recycled from within.

I severly question these practices. Are they legal? Does this not constitute some kind of abuse by the part of the airlines? Shouldn't the local labour ministries check these practices out to figure if employee rights are being abused? It is illegal to discriminate against race, gender or religion. But doesn't it seem wrong to discriminate against Type ratings? The first three items are of a social nature, the last one is of a financial nature. The Airlines are discriminating pilots on basis type ratings; on basis of saving money. It is a financial driver, nothing more.

Shouldn't pilot labour unions tackle this issue more seriously? Shouldn't governments formulate more stringent rulemaking that better protects future pilots rights to descent and fair treatment?
Isn't the European continent supposed to be SOCIAL in it's way of treating people?

Airlines forget that no company can function without people, be it pilots, cabin crew, ground crew, gate agents or office workers. People are key players. Humans are not the same as a computer or a chair or any other peice of furniture in an office. We are not just a ledger in the accountant's expense books. We make the company happen. People are the single most important asset any company has. This relationship must be nurtured, developped, managed with great care. It is a give and take affair.
If pilots feel exploited and abused even before ever stepping in a cock-pit, how can any airline expect commitment or dedication on the part of the employees? Pilots tend to grow resentment towards the airlines and just use then the same way that they feel they are being used. At the first chance they get of jumping ship to a better airline they leave without ever thinking twice. It cuts both ways. You reap what you sow.
It is very short-sighted of airlines to swap long-term planning for short-term financial savings. If you think short-term most probably there won't be any long-term anyway

Is there any kind of organized movement to counter this phenomenom? Can we do something to stop it, or at least regulate it in a more logical and decent way, in order to avoid the curren catch-22 scenario's?
If this continues unchecked it will be the end of aviation as a respectable way of making your living...

[Fancy Navigator]

Could not agree more....;) Unfortunately, some people would be ready to kill to get an airline job...

[Re-Heat]

Of people are prepared to do so, then market forces will determine it as such - simply a demand existing for desperate people with the means to finance and a licence will go for it.

Perhaps however if there were proven to be collusion between airlines and training organsations to force this upon us as pilots, we would have more than a leg to stand upon to take them to the Competition Commission.

Unfortunately it is wholly legal if it functions without the above, and there is no recourse to discrimination laws. Companies have an obligation to act in the best interests of their shareholders, not their employees or recruits - they are sowing the seeds of their destruction however, were the market to turn, and a drought of labour were to arise, as there would be zilch loyalty.

Think of it as them getting their cummupance in the future.

[Gin Slinger]

I've thought for a while there's a story in here somewhere for an enterprising journo, along the lines of "LOW COST, LOW SAFETY? How safe would you feel if your pilot [singular] bribed his way into the cockpit[sounds sexier than flightdeck]? See pages 3,5,6,15,27,28 for tits galore"

Perhaps they could be the pilots' friend after all?

Let's be candid about this, when you buy a type rating, you're attempting to buy a job.

We all know that historically low (along with not so low) hour pilots find their way into various airlines, but these days of money changing hands (en-mass) to do so are largely new.

[CH4]

LOL

Low Cost Low safety?

How many hours have you got ginslinger? Do you deserve a job at your level of experience, in your own terms? Or, should we deny all wannabees a chance, especially those that can demonstrate that they are a 'cut above the rest of you'?

Give me a break, please

MadDog

Give me 3 months and I will come here and make you 'eat your own words'.

Why 3 months? Because in 3 months I will have the first of our pilots out there in employment, mark my words.

[Gin Slinger]

CH4:

Look, I was merely speculating about a possible interpretation of the current trend. I made no inflection of my experience level or the safety of low cost airlines.

I do however find the current practice of airlines and training organisations colluding to encourage desperate people to get even further into debt to improve their bottom line or line their pockets quite distasteful. That is my opinion. I wouldn't be at all upset if popular opinion forced them to stop this practice, and I doubt many on PPRuNe would do on either. You on the other hand have a business interest for the trend to continue.

And it is nonsense to suggest that this would stop wannabes getting their chance. Do you think experienced pilots are somehow grown on trees, or once one's ATPL is unfrozen the ageing process stops? No, of course not.

Before you accuse me of believing that the world owes me a living, I can assure you that isn't the case.

[buttline]

CH4,

Quote: "I will not be the one to show you up as a bitter twisted twit, but the ones that have suceeded will be the ones to prove how you spent your time here so unproductively!"

You're being a little hard on Mad Dog there I feel. His post was a little naive but not twisted - sounded more like frustration - underserving of your harsh response IMHO.

Been reading the posts about GlobalAvSolutions with interest - I'm sure with effort from all sides it will prove to be a well thought of scheme.

However, just some constructive criticism - take it or leave it - occasionally your posts don't always convey the polish one would expect from senior management of a top class training organisation. That would be enough to make some of us hesitate to embark on your scheme.

[Old King Coal]

Gin Slinger - grow up mate !

The bottom line is that when a pilot has a type-rating, no matter by which route they obtained it, i.e. be it self or airline funded, the result is the same - in that the pilot is rated to operate the aircraft type that is written within their license.

Of course in order to become type-rated these pilots have had to pass the ground exams and license skills test ( LPC / OPC ) and that these must all be completed to a certain standard.

It is on that basis only that the rating issued by the relevant licensing authority - wherein the ability, or not, to pay does not remove the fact that the ground and flying tests still have to be passed and that the pass mark does not very according to ones financial status.

Now this is probably not what you want to hear but I'm afraid that these are the facts of the matter.

Ps. I you want to call-in the press to assess the skills of newly type-rated pilots then please do - wherein what they ( the press ) will find is that these pilots all have the qualifications required to operate the aircraft ( and some of them happen to be bloomin’ good pilots too ! )

[CH4]

Ginslinger

Fair dues

No, I'm not accusing you of anything.

Maybe I agree with you about how unfair it is of the airlines to change their terms and practices, but you have to live in a realistic world. We train people, no matter who pays the bill, and we place people in airlines for a living. Fact. Why do people want to rubbish us for what we do?

Go bully the airlines; they are the ones that set the trend. Don't be-little your fellow aviators for trying to take a step ahead. The ones with the ability will suceed, those that don't have 'it' will not.

Also, no one is encouraging anyone to get further into debt; quite the opposite, those that pass will get an income to pay of their debts; assuming they have any!

Buttline

Fairdoes to you too

I hope I don't appear here as a bully. That is the last thing I would wish anyone to think. Yes, I'm harsh here at times, because I see so much bull**** and bravado from people that hide behind their own identity, with cock all experience, but think they should be the next DFO. In most cases they have little experience to back up their opinions.

I have a great number of pilots that work for me (with me, would be a better expression) and you will never see them here in this forum. I could 'mobilise them' to be vocal here if you want, but most of them are very content to sit at home with their families or better still are down the pub or elsewhere enjoying themselves.

Why would anyone want a polished exterior? Believe me, getting that first foot on the ladder ain't that easy, if it's polished you may slip. I say it as I see it, but you can take my word as fact. Sorry if it hurts sometimes.

[Aviate378]

"Why do people want to rubbish us for what we do?"

Ok- I will try to explain. The reason why I do not like what you are doing is simple: This "training course" you are marketing will definitely add a remarkable amount of cost to any "low time pilot candidate", WITHOUT GIVING him/her ANY GUARANTEE FOR a JOB.

And I do continue disliking it as long as you can prove, with clear statistics, that EVERYONE WHO PASSES THE TRAINING WILL GET A JOB. (as you said, they should have reached the required standart!?)

I always get irritated when I see fellows around this industry, trying to act as your best friend but actually they are only after your money.

And CH4, with all respect, as long as you take my fellow aviators money but leave them without the job you "promised", I will consider you as one of them!

[Old King Coal]

Aviate378, the fact is that - unless of course your're one of the tiny minority who are fully sponsored - from the moment one sets foot on the slippery slope that is commercial aviation, people are taking money from you, indeed typically from the moment of ones first lesson until the arrival of the first airline pay cheque.

Anybody who spends their money on flying training is taking a risk - you spend money on a trial lesson ( not knowing if you'll like it ), you spend money gaining your PPL ( with no guarantees that you'll pass ), you then spend a small fortune on the commercial pilots ground exams ( ditto ), likewise training for ratings ( ditto ) and for the GFT and IR ( ditto ), etc ( ditto ).

All in all one spends a bloomin' fortune on the whole process with no, repeat no, guarantees that there will be employment for you at the end of it - wherein it's a very expensive gamble.

So, just what is it about this, i.e. that nobody is guaranteed a job when ( maybe that should read 'if' ) you eventually qualify, that so many of you fail to understand ?

All the time that young men and women are prepared to beggar themselves - in the hope that an airline will employ them - the beanies at the same said airlines will indeed be delighted to allow wannabes to out supply their demand.

[Aviate378]

"So, just what is it about this, i.e. that nobody is guaranteed a job when ( maybe that should read 'if' ) you eventually qualify, that so many of you fail to understand ?"

What I fail to understand above is that NOW we are supposed to make a COMMITMENT and SPEND a VERY large sum of money for a VERY SPECIFIC type of training WITHOUT GETTING ANY KIND OF COMMITMENT BACK!

You are right, this is an industry with VERY few guarantees indeed, and facing this NEW situation where we are now supposed to give away one of those VERY few things that used to NOT be on our ACCOUNT, strongly bothers me.

Your explanation, that it is okay to go into our aviators pocket because the others do, does NOT convince me at all. THIS IS a NEW thing, we PILOTS are NOT used to pay our specific typeratings, and I DO URGE EVERYBODY TO BE AGAINST IT!!!

WHY??? Let me take a look into the future if this trend continues:
Already now they are offering "initial line experience" for those who are passed and qualified for the type (by paying £ 100,- per sector!). This means that a guy who is QUALIFIED to be EARNING the money is working NOT ONLY FOR FREE, BUT PAYING INSTEAD!!!

You do not have to be a genius to realize that the airline won't NEVER EVER give you a permanent job (and start paying you the salary) as long as there are others who will work for free and even bring in some money while doing that. IS THIS WHAT WE PILOTS WANT?

This also means that in the future, the Captain will be the only one in the cockpit who receives the salary!!! (unless they come out with some "brilliant" plan to "train" Commanders as well :)

[Old King Coal]

Aviate378 - indeed, and this ( i.e. little or no guarantees of employment ) really should be spelt out to wannabes from the outset, but unfortunately many wannabes are both naive and foolish and seem to think that it will not be they who will be the casualties of the whole process.

But boy do these supposedly smart people bleat when the game isn't going the way they'd like and the goal posts have moved along the way, i.e. they've spent the money and can't get a job - which, I'm afraid to report, many of them won't, wherein the path to the front seats of a shiny jet are stroon with fallen wannabes – these being wannabes who've often spent a small fortune, albeit of their own volition.

So, all together.....

“FROM START TO FINISH, THE WHOLE THING IS A MASSIVE GAMBLE !”

and

”There’s one born every minute !”


W.r.t. that NOW we are supposed to make a COMMITMENT and SPEND a very large sum of money for a VERY SPECIFIC type of training WITHOUT GETTING ANY KIND OF COMMITMENT BACK!.....

Then don't do it, but it's a free market economy and if others choose to then that's up to them, just as it's your choice not to partake; veritably there are risks involved with both strategies.

[Danny]

Just a question for those of you who feel you are being 'forced' :confused: to purchase a type rating. If you were offered a job which included a jet type rating but would have to work for the next six months for, say £2.00 a flight hour duty pay only, nothing else, how many of you would take up the opportunity?

Another point, if as I did when I started out on my quest to become an airline pilot, I purchased a Bandeirante type rating after I received my fATPL for £3,500 is that just as abhorrent to those of you who adamantly refuse to be 'forced' to pay for a type rating?

Is it just a heavy jet type rating that you are against being purchased or is it any type rating no matter what type? I purchased my Bandit rating to give me a better chance to gain employment and it was a good move as I was flying for pay on type a week after completing the type rating. It did mean that I spent the next three and a half years flying turboprops, mostly at night, until my first jet job. I fail to understand why many of you don't plan on getting something like a turboprop rating on your licence first and then market yourselves to the many smaller operators and get some good experience and build up the necessary hours.

[FlyingForFun]

MadDogDriver has actually raised two issues which are, to my mind, completely separate:

Paying for a type rating - although I agree in principal with the idea that airlines should pay for a type rating, I can also see why the current situation has arisen. Simple market forces dictate that if someone has the money to do something which they think will give them an advantage, they will do that, and the market will accomodate it. They then raise employers' expectations, until what started off as something which one or two rich people might do becomes something which everyone is supposed to do.

Then there's the completely separate issue of:

Hiring people with experience. Sorry MadDogDriver, but with respect you're talking complete crap on this one! Put yourself in an employers' shoes - you have a choice between hirnig two people, one with 250 hours on light piston engined aircraft, and one with 1500 hours, of which 500 are on the type you want him to fly. Which one do you hire? It's a no-brainer. There are no laws against it, and the reason there are no laws against it is because it's common sense. It happens in every industry - I have done a reasonable amount of CV screening in the IT industry, and if I want someone with a bit of experience then the CV of anyone who's straight out of university goes into the bin immediately.

There are three reasons why employers will hire people with no experience. The first is that there are no experienced people on the market. This is clearly not the case in aviation at the moment, and probably won't be for quite some time. But logic dictates that if no one ever hires brand new pilots then old pilots will retire or loose their medicals, and eventually the supply of experienced pilots will dry up. The next reason for hiring brand new pilots is because they are cheaper, something which is particularly important to low-cost operators. And the third is because there is no immediate chance of promotion to the left-hand seat, so experienced pilots won't be interested in the job. Those three reasons exist in every industry.

FFF
--------------

[Flypuppy]

Danny,

What is wrong with a fair days pay for a fair days work?

Call me old fashioned if you will, but if I am working for a company that is making money, why shouldn't I make money as well?

£3,500 for a Bandit rating is more affordable than £16.5k for an ATR or £18k for a 737 rating. Even a Shed rating comes in at about £10k. I would love to be able to fly a Baron/Cessna 321/Caravan 2/Seneca on single pilot IFR scaring myself ****less on a rainy February night, but the JAA rules mean that option is closed to newbies until they have reached 700hrs. We are caught in a bit of a conundrum. It is almost as though the JAA system was created *specifically* to produce 250 hour multi-crew F/O's.

If any business is founded on such slim profit margins that the staff are expected to fund the training budget, in this case by paying for a type rating, how long can that business be expected to last?

How many secretaries would the same company be able to recruit if they are expected to pay for their own training? The sums of money involved are different, but the priciple remains the same. Imagine going for an interview as an IT bod, you are offered the job, but the catch is you have to pay your own Microsoft Certified System Admin qualifications at 6,500 pounds, and you will be bonded to the company for a year, and because you are gaining experience in a sought after discipline for the first 6 months you will only be paid 5 pounds for every hour you are needed in the office. I cant imagine many people jumping at that opportunity.

I fully understand the differences between IT and aviation but a type rating is a justifiable business expense, which in my naeive view, allows the airline to make money by having people who can actually fly the aeroplanes, full of passengers, safely and efficiently.

Old King Coal/CH4, the two of you (assuming that you are two separate individuals, of course) obviously have an agenda and a business to promote, but in my humble opinion, your hectoring tone isn't doing you any favours.

[Megaton]

Point 1. No-one is being forced to buy any training from PPL through to a type-rating.

Point 2. If you extend the buying jobs argument, then anyone who pays for any type of training is trying to buy themselves into the marketplace. Should this be made illegal too?

Point 3. Most of today's pilots with more than 3 years of line experience never had to straight-out pay for any training. Well, this is plainly incorrect since many of these pilots paid for much if not all of their training. You could argue that modern aspirants are much better placed to self-fund with the buoyant job market and low interest rates. It wasn't that long ago that if ma and pa didn't have the cash you had no chance. At least you can now get a job to tide you over while borrowing money at sensible rates.

Point 4. Again, not long ago, you were pretty much unemployable without, at least, 700 hrs. So I think overall it's swings and roundabouts. How would you feel about completing your CPL/IR and then told to come back when you had 700 hrs?

Bottom line is that no-one owes you a job. You've paid for much of your training and they're asking you to pay some more. It's crap but that's what market forces are all about. If you don't like it, try Cuba! :p

[Joe_Bar]

Danny

your option of the company paying for the type-rating and a hourly pay of 2 pounds is less risky for the wanabee airline pilot.

Because then you can take a loan for living expense for the six month period. I'd rather take a loan for a job than for a type-rating without the assurance of a job.

Greetings JB

[M.85]

Dear all,

How interesting are all these posts.
I must agree with Mad Dog especially regarding pilots loyalty.
How could one airline expect from his pilot loyalty when he had to pay for his own rating??
I personnaly wouldnt feel bad about giving a 2 weeks notice if I found a "better" airline.On the other hand,an airline which paid its pilots training therefore giving them them the opportunity to prove themselves and feel "wanted"and appreciated.
I would always make sure that the airline I may have to leave for any reasons doesnt get starnded without someone to take my seat.

Treat your pilots right and they will return the favor 1000 times.

Recently having had an aptitude test with an Irish Airline which if successful will pay for the training,made me realise that there are airlines out there that still have the CLASS more airlines should have.
If given the chance to work for them i will never hesitate to give them all my best during my employement..its all about loyalty!


And to answer another post..there are still plenty of QUALIFIED and EXPERIENCED crews struggling to get a job.


BRegards,

M.85

[MadDogDriver]

As initiator of this thread, I must say that I have actually been able with the cooperation of everyone to prove a point.

That Aviation has become a very hostile industry to be in. Today it is more than ever a "me, myself and I" environment. I know that in the world we live in everybody must look out for their own interest, this was always the case and will always be. But today more than a strugle it looks like a battle. We are at war with ourselves. We elbow our competitors at every chance we get in the hopes of landing the all elusive flight-deck job. We brainwash ourselvelves into thinking that, "such is life", "market conditions prevailing" or any other justification we might deem plausible to ease the frustrations we feel.

Just sample the atmosphere in aviation forums! You can feel the anger, bitternes, frustrations and plain fear in the replies posted to almost any threads, but especially those dealing with pilots on the outside. Pilots that are not employed at the moment. We fire attacks at each other, discrediting or insulting. Why do we do this? Because the current situation leads us to it.
Pilots are people first of all and they expect to be treated as such. They don't expect to be treated with white gloves or given any special treatment....No! What we expect is much more simple. That we are treated with respect, dignity and above all FAIRLY! Just this.

If a company wants you to pay for a type rating...O.k. then on the other hand commit to offering me a decent job upon succesfull completion. Like any relationship it is a give an take issue, you cannot just take in a relationship. If this is what you want you should sollicit the services of hookers....but don't expect any love with it nor for it to be a very long affair. I don't think many of us like being treated as hookers.

Another thing. It is not about new-bies or old-bies. If you have 275 hours freshly out of school or have logged 5000+ hours on heavy jet, these modern employment tendencies will effect us all in one way or the other. Even if you are employed today and feel that this does not apply to you anymore...Think again, what happens if by horrible chance your present employer goes bust or just feels like making you redundant (cut-backs you see, after all the only thing important is "share-holder equity", right?) We are all affected by this, either we like it or not.

This if why I feel that something must be done about it actively. If not, if left alone it will eventually evolve. Time changes eveything. In the future trail and error, supply and demand, hey maybe even legislation will change how hiring and training is done. But my concern is that I live now. I need a job today. I don't have the luxury of time, and many other pilots don't either. We have expenses, mouths to feed, debts to repay, mortgages etc.

Let's not point our guns at each other but at the problem.

[cleared24right]

Hi all,

The way i see it, is that i have no option, you see at the moment i am barely earning enough to cover my loan re-payments and re-paying a mortgage, so i am in the fortunate position to afford a type rating to get into an airline job and therefore earn more to provide myself with extra.

Yeah it sucks, but if you look at it as an investment then i don't think it seems so bad. I am only 21 and should be off flying round Africa but they pay nothing so whos gonna pay my loan then?

Just my 2 penneth!

C24R

[Aviate378]

...first of all, if one buys "just" a type rating without any guarantee of the job after successfull completion of the training, this is what's going to happen:

- Fact number 1: You have just spent a huge amount of money that you are hoping to earn back some day, right?

- Fact number 2: There are still hundreds of pilots with both RATING and hundreds of hours LINE EXPERIENCE unemployed, so you will have to compete against them.

- Fact number 3: To be able to compete against those guys, you have to get some initial line experience on your type, right?

Well, do not worry, your "friends" who just took your money to "train" you will make a generous offer to you. You may get some experience on the right seat as long as you bring £ 100,- per sector with you! So, you will end up "having" to spend even more money (and time) to reach your ultimate goal.

You try to impress the airline with your skills, but why should they hire you and spend all that money into your salary because they will be able to get other guys to replace you any time for free? You will end up into this same long line with the guys who have the rating AND some operating experience...

So, as you see, this whole scenario will just make your bank manager happy, but it doesn't really help your situation at all. Please, try to understand that there are NO shortcuts or tricks available. The best thing to do is just wait, build your hours with some less fancy equipment (and keep your money) until times really change better again.

You don't have to believe what I'm saying here, but please, don't come back to this forum and cry that you lost all your money...

[MadDogDriver]

Having someone pay to perform labour that would otherwise be remunerated should be illegal. And this is exactly my point.

You are not only not making money,
not only working for free,
But on top of it Having to pay to work!

Once you have:
1. Paid for your licences
2. Paid for your Type Rating
3. Paid for your line experience

You will not get hired because now you will cost airlines money. Now they will have to finally pay you for your services and why should they, there are plenty of other free pilots from where you came from.
Now you are in the middle. You have more too much experience to be a new entry (meaning free pilot),
But too little experience to be a captain (A legal and expensive requirement companies have yet to be able to by-pass)
What now?...catch 22!

Free labor should be out-lawed straight-out.

[Old King Coal]

Aviate378 - w.r.t your Fact number 2: There are still hundreds of pilots with both RATING and hundreds of hours LINE EXPERIENCE unemployed

Actually, I think you're wrong.

Yes, there are lot's of pilots with type ratings. However the ratings that they hold are typically not for aircraft that are in demand. E.g. at our airline we see lots of applications from folks with L1011, B747-200, RJ100, BAC1-11, A300, and the like - whereas the types that are in demand are, of course, the B737 ( classic and NG ) plus the narrow body airbus's.

That said, there are indeed some pilots who do indeed have the in-demand aircraft ratings but who are not employed, wherein one might be so bold as to suggest that the predominant reason is anything from bad timing and / or no luck ( sound familiar ? ), and / or that they're dodgy operators, and / or that they've managed to get bad reputation / burn bridges - and trust me when I say that I see the old boy network doing its stuff on a daily basis; you'd be amazed at how some rated & current pilots don't even get a sniff on the basis of a nod and a wink from somebody they've ‘dissed’ being passed along the network ;) ( but therein hangs a whole new thread ).

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good debate shall we ?

[Danny]

Still no one answering my question directly. I'll repeat it here for arguments sake:

If you were offered a job which included a jet type rating but would have to work for the next six months for, say £2.00 a flight hour duty pay only, nothing else, how many of you would take up the opportunity?

With reference to Flypuppy, there is nothing wrong with a fair days pay for a fair days work. That was not what I was implying and you very well know it. Please answer the question, yes you would or no you wouldn't. I'm curious to see what the response would be to my question as I remember just over a year ago when we ran the PPRuNe/Astraeus B737 Cadet scheme that over 200 of you who had the required qualifications applied. How many of you would apply again to those terms? How many of you would accept a type rating and job experience for even less?

Just food for thought.

[Aviate378]

...to answer into your question; Oh yes, surely there would be some guys desperate enough to take even a job like that! (NOT including me...)

I would like to ask one question from you as well (and I would like to include all employers after "cheap" work force). Have you ever given even a single thought where this road is leading you all on the long run? Have you ever given a thought what motivates a young fellow to choose a pilot career?

It has become very clear to all of us pilots that you are taking the whole and full advantage of the lousy job market situation we are experiencing at the moment, but do you really think that this will last forever? Cos if you do, I think that you are wrong!!!

How are you going to attract young and educated people to spend all the money for (what's these days extremely expensive) initial training, force them to buy the type rating, sell them some experience on the right seat and then reward some lucky one with your £ 2,- pay scale??? HELLO??? Where do you think you will find drivers 10 years from here???

Let me quess the answer: You really don't care because,when that day finally arrives, YOU KNOW THAT YOUR COMPANY DOES NOT EVEN EXIST ANYMORE!!!

[Flying Farmer]

Danny thought I should post a reply to this.
£2 an hour but you get the type rating, would I do it, at the risk of upsetting a few guys here to be honest the answer is yes.
This needs some clarification, as some cases are not as clear-cut as others are.
In my case at the age of 41 time is not on my side, after deciding on a career change three yrs ago, funding my own training, instructing for a pittance for a year and also having redundancy thrown at me last December I would say things really couldn't get a lot worse. I originally downsized my house to fund my training and now that situation presents itself again as I struggle to gain enough experience for the airlines to consider me. Hours at the moment around 750.
To all that have posted, the situation is not clear-cut. Although I dislike the idea of self funding type ratings or working for less than the what I think I'm worth, if the opportunity arose I would have to consider it.
Flying Farmer

[Aviate378]

"....HAVE a job on excellent equipment with excellent pay. It's amazing to see how quickly people forget how it was, or fail to see themselves in a situation where you have to pay up thousands of pounds on top of the inflated loan that made you a pilot...."

I guess I'm one of those you were referring above, but let's just IMAGINE a situation where there would not be even a single qualified pilot available for any airline. Do you agree that, to be able to continue flying, the airlines would be forced to give full sponsorship from zero time untill fully type rated? And most probably, they would have to pay a fair salary from the beginning?

Okay, I admit, this is just dreaming, but do you see what I'm trying to proof here? If all unemployed pilots are now going to invest typeratings WITHOUT guaranteed job offer after successfull completion of the training and if everyone is willing to pay while working in order to gain some experience, does it really improve our chances to get a job OR is it just adding expences???

We should remember that these choises we are making today are going to affect the whole airline industry and our very own future. And if we really want to spend a whole fortune for our training & ratings and then work for free, I don't think that Airlines would have anything against it...

Final thought: We GET treated the way we LET others to treat us!

[Spartacan]

>>>>If you were offered a job which included a jet type rating but would have to work for the next six months for, say £2.00 a flight hour duty pay only, nothing else, how many of you would take up the opportunity?<<<<

No I would not. I do not think airline pilots should effectively work for nothing under any circumstances.

Equally, I do not think hospital consultants should work for peanuts whilst they are learning the latest medical techniques.

Ditto for oils rig safety managers, nuclear power station controllers, paramedics, dentists, the military and anyone involved in safety critical work.

The job of an airline pilot is just to critical for training to be skimped in any way.

Even though we might love flying the following must be upheld:

Work = Pay.

[Dogma]

£2.00 a month, Let's rename BALPA the Mother Theresa Institute for pilots.

Flying Farmer, This is the reason that starting commercial flying at your age was grounds for having your class one medical denied to you because of mental health issues.

Paying for ratings is deeply flawed, any company that is worth working for will pay for a rating and proper training.

Good Luck

[Joe_Bar]

Danny

I have answered your question earlier, but maybe I was not clear enough.

I would work for £ 2 /hour for 6 months if the company payed the type-rating. I'd rather get the funds to get through those 6 months and have a job than a loan and maybe a job.

Would the money not spend by the company in those 6 months be deducted from the bond?

JB

[Flying Farmer]

Dogma

guessing that was a tounge in cheek comment.

Yes it stinks paying for a type rating and I am all for employers paying for them.

Until recently I would have argued against self funding my own type rating, being the principled person I am, but my bills need to be paid and my family fed. 40 yrs old or 25 changes nothing and sticking to principles will not put food on my table!!

Try not to knock guys who are considering this route without knowing the facts behind the decision.

FF

[aardvark keeper]

As many have mentioned, there is too much "pull up the ladder" happening here & I'm sure many don't realise the future of an airline career is being mapped out here.

If this carries on, every time you want to move on to a different company or fleet, it will be expected that you will always have to foot the bill for the rating - regardless of your time or experience

I'm afraid by being short sighted, this industry has only itself to blame

[Danny]

Just for information purposes, I remember when I was flying around in my Bandit back in 1994, about a third of all the pilots who had a couple of years experience flying turboprops went off and paid for their own B757 or B737 type ratings. Most of them applied for and got jobs with the large IT airlines.

If there is anyone who set out to get their licence and didn't consider that once they had their licence that it would be a cut throat world out there, subject to market forces for the relaively few jobs that would become available on jet equipment, then they should seriously reconsider their prospects. The market will change and I believe that we are at the beginning of an upturn which will manifest itself when we see sponsorships being advertised once again.

Unless you live in some kind of communist era state where jobs are guaranteed for everyone irrespective of market forces then you are not going to see a utopia where all the airlines bosses go all mushy and decide that they will recruit loads of freshly licenced fATPL's and put them through type rating courses with reducing bonds over 3 years and a guarantee that there will be no lay-offs. If you want to get angry with anyone then blame Al Quaida and SARS for the present downturn in the market and the lack of jet jobs. Blaming the recruitment companies and those that offer type ratings for exploiting the situation is futile. We live in a capitalist society and that is the way the market operates.

I don't believe many of you out there who have a fATPL but no experience would turn down a type rating and six months of line experience (no bond beyond the 6 months) for little more than flight duty pay. Whilst it would be nice if all the airlines were offering sonsorships for cadets, that is not the case and anyway, those of you who went down the self improver route were not eligible for those cadetships anyway.

Be honest with yourselves. There are very few jet jobs available for newly licenced, low experience pilots. At the moment there are some opportunities for a select few who are able to raise the money and are prepared to pay for their own type rating. It is an extremely risky venture but for some it will pay off. No one is forcing anyone to pay for a rating. It is a choice and will be argued to death.

Those of you who claim that the quality of pilots who pay for their own rating must somehow be lower have very little idea of what is actually required and are probably unsure of your abilities and what will be required of you during and after a course. To blame others who are prepared to take the risk for the lack of opportunities available for you will not get you anywhere.

Once the demand for pilots goes up again, and I believe that it is swinging in that direction, you will find that those of you who waited patiently will get on that bottom rung of the ladder. Those that took the risk and were successful by paying for their own type rating will be that much further up that ladder. It's a choice. Just pity those who do pay for a type rating but are unable to gain employment as there will also be a few of them about too.

If you are going to invest any money in your future as a pilot then you could do much worse than pay to see if you have the qualities and psyche that will be expected of you in your planned future carreer. Unfortunately, for many who go to the expense of gaining a licence, they are quite shocked at how cut throat the real world is out there. Remember that the number of applicants for every job will outweigh vacancies by about 5 to 1 or more.

Just remember that no one is forcing anyone to pay for a type rating. By using that analogy anyone who was not an ab-initio cadet must have been 'forced' to pay for their fATPL... I don't think so.

[MJR]

Hi Danny,

Not wishing to sound like an aviational Judas, but I'm prepared to undercut all my fellow Wannabes and request only £1.50 an hour flight pay.

I always thought that the Astraeus sponsorship scheme was bold, particularly for a young airline. If such an offer came along again I would gladly apply.

So can we have another sponsorship scheme please and perhaps limit applications to fATPL holders aged between 38 and 40 with over 670 hours but under 710 and slightly balding, it is nearly christmas after all

cheers

MJR:ok:

[Flying Farmer]

Have to go with MJR on this one, raise the limit to 41 though.:ok:
Would make my christmas.
FF

[Flypuppy]

Danny to answer your question; NO.

I cannot afford to work for a maximum possible take home pay of £180 per month.

If I was single I would maybe consider it. £180 would maybe just cover my monthly groceries and nappies bill.

What about the safety implications of such an offer?
Let's take an imaginary situation:
Pilot X is in his mid-30's, got 2 young kids a wife and a mortgage. He has used up all his savings and re-mortgaged part of his house to pay for flight training. The offer of a position in an airline comes along following your proposal; £2.00 per flight hour, nothing else. Pilot X doesnt live in the S.E. of England, and the airline is based out of LHR, as an example. Pilot X needs to find accomodation close to the airport. There isnt a chance he could cover any rented accom for £180 per month, so whatever savings he has left gets used up, and maybe another loan to cover living expenses.

Everything is going tickety boo for Pilot X, ground training is completed LPC/OPC passed etc etc, he is now flying the line and the financial worries are starting to slip away, apart from the phone calls from his wife asking when he is next going to be coming home?, when can I buy the kids new clothes? when is that airline going to start paying you? The usual sort of things that wives ask. Then one day pilot X has been working close to the monthly limit, he is tired, getting a bit tetchy. His missus manages to get in touch with him to let him know that the central heating boiler has packed up and there is no warmth or hot water in the house, a repair man has been and the estimate for a new boiler is £1800. Where is the money going to come from? Pilot X is now under considerable strain, not only from a demanding job, but also from his personal life. His family is now really suffering because he wants to fly a 737. Too late to worry about that, the captain is badgering him for loadsheets, LMCs, weather charts etc etc. The business of flying keeps his family worries at bay for a while, but they are still there. Once established in the cruise, pilot X starts to worry about his family, no hot water for the kids to wash, £1800 to find for a boiler, only just enough money to scrape through each month, credit cards maxed out, car making a funny noise, is that going to cost money?

Pilot X misses 2 radio calls, the captain is getting pissed off with his new F/O. The wx at destination is at or below minimums. CB's and +TSRA being reported. Stress level in the flightdeck starting to increase, workload going up. Pilot X can't totally get rid of the worries in his mind. He's not concentrating fully on the job, because of the money worries.

I could carry on with the mythical pilot X, but I think you get the gist of where I am going with it?

A lower salary while someone is under training is reasonable, even if it just enough to cover at least living expenses (I don't mean that it includes mortgages etc, the wife can put on a short skirt and go down the docks and earn enough for that ;) ), and would ease the burden of trying to live as well as learning to fly a very expensive piece of aluminium around at 3/4 the speed of sound.

Maybe this is also some food for thought?

[redsnail]

Pups,
That is so close to the truth it ain't funny. We have guys with us who are working 2 jobs because the FO's salary is so low. (Supporting a family with 2 teenage kids). Sleep is a precious comodity for him.
:uhoh:

[MadDogDriver]

Flypuppy.
Nice peace of literature. You should consider a carreer in writing.

I think the way you exposed it clearly explains what most people mean with safety when adressing this issue. It is not that pilots that pay for their own ratings are no good piloting, they are as good or as bad as any other. That is not what people mean, but that the added stresses, as a result of stretching ones financial resources to the max and beyond, can compromise safety in the cock-pit to a greater extent than under normal circumstances.

another thought!
Let's take an average pilot's carreer. During the 30 years or so of flying an average pilot would fly on average about 4 different types. Imagine that he has to pay for each of them, let's say 40.000 Euros a pop. That makes a total of 160.000 Euros of (unnescessary) post ATPL training expenses. If we add to this the average cost of 60.000 Euros for flight training up to ATPL level, we get a lifetime total of 220.000 Euros.
Does anyone know of a more expensive carreer!

[Tosh McCaber]

Old King Cole,

Are you really saying that the experience and knowledge of a guys who have logged up 1000s of hours on “L1011, B747-200, RJ100, BAC1-11, A300”, to quote you, should be ignored when it comes to them applying for a job as a 737 driver? There’s nothing magic about the 737, other than it happens to be the Plane of the Moment. Let’s wait for another 5-10 years, when a replacement arrives- different aircraft, and, by then, different airlines. Will the experience of the 737 drivers count for anything if the Ryanairs and Easyjets of today go belly up? There they are- 1000s of hours on the 737, which has been displaced as flavour of the decade.

The whole area of self paid type ratings with no guarantee of a job is a scam. A person should receive a day’s pay for a day’s work.

Danny

To answer your question - the answer is yes- BUT- only if the 6 months of penury is compensated thereafter with a long term Contract (not 6- 12 months) which assures me that I will be remunerated by the airline on a pay scale above the Industry Standard, which will make up for my 6 months of working “at risk”. After all, if I take the risk of helping an airline out for no pay, in return for a Type Rating, (also taking a risk that the airline will not go bust in the foreseeable future,) then the there must be a balancing gesture on your part.

[omnidirectional]

I would take the £2 per sector, it would be better to be gaining the experience rather than sitting on your bum moaning about the state of the world and waiting for someone to bring along a silver platter with a job on it.

[CH4]

I'm glad to see that at last there is now some sensible arguments being put forward on the subject that are indeed very worthy of reply.

There are a lot of interesting points that deserve a reply here and time permitting I will add some of my own views to some of them this weekend.

Here's a quick one, in the meantime. FlyPuppy's scenario, regarding wife and kids at home with the usual financial demands etc and the pressure put on poor pilot that has extended himself to pay for TR? FP, sorry to say this, but maybe said pilot in that position should have first got wife and kids to 'sign up' to the concept and the realities before hubby made that commitment? The other side is that no matter how much hubby wants to indulge his passion to fly, his circumstances might dictate that an alternative carreer would be more prudent?

His financial situation or his family scenario is not the aviation industry's problem, but more his own.?

Outrageous view you might think, but food for thought.

CH4

[Danny]

Thank you for some of the replies. As was pointed out by Redsnail, at the lower end of the food chain there are indeed some pilots earning a pittance. It has always been so and probably always will remain so. Unfortunately, for many of you with shiny new fATPL's and few hours that is where you are going to have to start off.

Just remember the adagae that it is far better to be looking for work from within the job than from without. At least those pilots struggling to make ends meet whilst paying off debts who are in a job are getting valuable experience and they probably won't have to wait too long for a command on their type and then eventually move on up the food chain to the shinier stuff.

Flypuppy, your scenario could equally apply to a very successful pilot with lots of experience who just hasn't planned his life very well. There are plenty of pilots who, either through their own lack of planning or through scenarios out of their own control, are in financial straits. I know of a few who have large alimony payments to ex-wives and children and have not been fortunate to work for the same employer since starting out. Many pilots have been made redundant over the years and have become migratory, working wherever thay can find a job and they have many if not more of the problems you highlighted. It is not the responsibility of the airlines to change their criteria just to suit an individuals circumstances.

The scheme I was referring to with a Type Rating and six months line experiece earning only £2 an hour flight duty pay was offered with no guarantee of a permanent contract at the end. If no contract was offered then the pilot was free to hawk his or her wares to the highest bidder. They would be low houred B737 rated pilots with six months experience on type and maybe 300-400 hours. Fortunately all the pilots we recruited were offered permanent contracts at the end and are now very experienced but there were no guarantees at the time. Also, they all had to make sacrifices as we all do when starting out. Some were married with a young family and some had to move from another EU country! So, you have to be prepared to be flexible and you have to know your own limits. No one owes you a job, no matter how much you sacrificed to get your licence.

My main point is that there will always be people who are prepared to do anything to get that coveted jet job. Very few will be lucky enough to go straight into it. Many would be prepared to sacrifice their grandmothers. There will always be some who are prepared and able to raise the money for a type rating and there will always be companies who are prepared and able to offer them. It is market forces that dictate how we go about getting our jobs as pilots.

To those that feel angry about it, I can understand your frustration. I have been there and remember the year and a half it took me to get my first job. I did something about it and went for a reasonably cheap bandit type rating and I have never looked back. I'm not rich and had to wait until I was older and had enough equity in my home before I could raise enough money to get my licence. All I could afford by the end was the cheapo bandit rating.

Don't try to use the excuse that it is only the rich kids with wealthy parents who pay for type ratings either. As msot of you will know from when you started your PPL's, the pilots you met down at the flying club were mostly ordinary people from varied backgrounds. The same applies to the pilots you will meet as you progress up the ladder as a professional pilot. Anyone venting their anger on here at those who have decided to pay for a rating had better look at themselves before taking their frustrations out on others.

I'll repeat it again, no one is forcing anyone to pay for a type rating. No one forced anyone to try and become a professional pilot. Just get used to the idea that you have to be extremely flexible and adaptive if you want to get anywhere in this job. Those that just wait and hope that their CV will catch the eye of a benevolent Chief Pilot somewhere and something will come along in the end may just be lucky one day but I wouldn't be holding my breath if I were them. I'd suggest being proactive and getting involved. If it means that some are prepared to pay for a jet type rating then so be it. At least take some aptitude testing first though. If you can't afford a jet type rating then do a bit of research about smaller types and who operates them.

It's a cruel world out there but hopefully one day you'll be able to look back and remember how hard it was as you settle down to your first sector as a new F/O. Caveat Emptor.

[Flypuppy]

CH4,
His financial situation or his family scenario is not the aviation industry's problem, but more his own.?

Probably very true, until a 737 goes cartwheeling down the runway because the F/O gets so far behind the aeroplane due to being lost in his own problems, and the captain can't get it together in time. Maybe if Silkair and Egyptair had paid more attention to some of their pilots alleged financial problems maybe history would have been different?

Outrageous view you might think, but more food for thought.

Danny,

the situation I have outlined is hypothetical, but as has been mentioned in other threads, once something becomes established as "the norm" in aviation it is difficult to turn back the clock (MCC courses a case in point, IR's being another).

Also the scenario I have created could very well apply to an experienced pilot but the difference is, I would suggest, that the experienced pilot may be better equiped to "pidgeon hole" his life and his experience allows him to multi-task his thought processes as he has more spare mental capacity to cope. I could of course be talking out of my hole but just a thought.

Of course it isn't the airline's responsibility to change criteria to suit individual circumstances, but, in such a safety critical profession, would it not in the airlines interests to ensure that the people who are making strategic decisions with company assest worth >$35,000,000 are happy? I do accept that I could be thinking about this from a utopian point of view, but maybe worth kicking around for a bit.

The scheme you refer to that paid only 2 quid per flight hour, I was under the impression there was also another monthly (re)payment, or did I misunderstand that? If it is the case then that puts a slightly different complexion on things....

[CH4]

Well said Danny

I hope you will allow me a little latitude, given the circumstances.

Are we a scam? Do we place pilots?

As of today I am looking for the following;

2 X B737 NG captains...Immediate start.

4 X F100 TRE's and Captains

2 X ATR TRE's

Can I find them? No!

At this time in the winter period in EU?....What does that tell you guys out there? Now is the time to get yourselves ready, for sure.

February, last year, I could 'shake the tree' and got no end of qualified Airbus guys falling out..... 3 months later, I could not fill orders I had. The pilots were not there!

As to how dangerous it is filling the positions with minimum hour guys, go think on. Every airline has to maintain a sufficient level of experience. Those that will accept a wanabee pilot are in fact doing you all wanabees a favour! They don't NEED you , but invariably acept that they would like you. They can only dilute their overall experience level to certain standard, acceptable to the authorities.

As always, they can only accept a certain percentage of 'inexperienced pilots'.

[Tristar Freak]

CH4, choose you words carefully here. 'Bite the hand that feeds you'....well, go figure!


You wouldn't be trying to stifle debate by quite unsubtly throwing threats around? Are you interviewing people by stealth on these supposedly annonymouse forums? I have seen you crticize people's CRM because they disagree with your viewpoint. Ever thought that some of the people posting here might not be as they seem? The more I read what you write the less I would be inclined to want to do any business with you (although now that I have criticized you, I am sure my CRM is crap and you wont want to do business with me!)

I think the majority of sensible and reasonable people who hold fATPL's are well aware of the fact that "the world doesnt owe us a living" - how sick am I of reading this phrase?
Only the very brave, stupid or stinking rich would embark on such a project without first assesing the risks/possibility of employment.

I have heard said that pprune is a "virtual pub", well if we can't have a whinge, anonymously, when most of us a separated by distances and geography where can we moan?

The other thing I have noticed, in many cases a persons "onliine persona" can be diametrically opposed to their real personality.

Anyway, you have a nice night.

[opsmaneurope]

CH4 obviously has an involvement with Global Aviation however if it wasn't for all the rumour-mongering going on I guess he wouldn't feel it necessary to come here and defend, what appears to be, a legitimate and honest business.
I recall my first boss in this industry, he had been a ramp-basher at London/Croydon airport, telling me how he had to salute the flight deck each time an aircraft taxied off stand.
Likewise and again in the good old days, anyone who dared to question or indeed critise the Royals would have been executed.
We all need to move with the times whether we like it or not, wannabes decide to be pilots because they know that at the end of the day they will be earning higher than average salaries, much the same as university graduates will also earn higher than average salaries.
Until such time as climate conditions change wannabe pilots, as do university graduates, need to accept they will accumulate a debt before earning 'big time'.
Any that don't like nor accept that, well nobody is forcing you, in fact I was at the local Tesco's today, they're looking for staff with no mention of any training costs nor bonding!

[High Wing Drifter]

Likewise and again in the good old days, anyone who dared to question or indeed critise the Royals would have been executed.
Just looking at my HPL notes:

-P+G: "Brooks no discent and praises obedience. Will follow orders blindly from above." Not the sort to have on board in these Captain Piccard sound-a-like days. Won't be long and Counselors will be required equipment on the flight deck!

I think the majority of sensible and reasonable people who hold fATPL's are well aware of the fact that "the world doesnt owe us a living" - how sick am I of reading this phrase?
Yup, very sick of it. along with the "Nobody is forcing you",etc, etc. However, prooners generally do seem obsessed with jet jobs and Easy and Ryan in particular. Now I am just about as inexperienced and naive as it is possible to be this industry and can only look from the outside in (for now). However, one thing that I have noticed is that ALL the CPL/IR bods that I know who have moved on (about half a dozen) ended up getting jobs with operators I had never previously heard of and neither did they have to pay for their type ratings. Experience ranged from 1000hrs to 250hrs. Jobs ranged fron 737s to Turboprops.

Could it be the case that folk have one thing in mind and are assuming that firing off 1 million CVs covers all the bases?

Feel free to toast me if I am talking b*ll**ks.

[Aviate378]

(quote from CH4's message on top of this page, that has now been "edited" away):
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
choose you words carefully here. 'Bite the hand that feeds you'....well, go figure!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OKAY!

Your message is clear now: Keep your mouth shut!!! Otherwise I won't give you a job!!!

[CH4]

Aviate378

Yes, I did edit my post. That's CRM for you; it works both ways. I accepted some feedback given here from some of the guys and realised that I was being a bit harsh, so I changed what I said! It just goes to show that even some of us older ones still have things to learn!

[Aviate378]

CH 4

I'm happy to see that! Maybe you aren't such a "bad guy" after all...

Peace, and have a nice one! :ok:

[Spartacan]

Creating a situation where an airline pilot is working for a pittance having funded his/her own training is hardly ideal for the pilot. It is, of course, good for the bean counters.

My view is that these financial 'deals' are just another form of commercial pressure (to add to all the others) on today's airline pilot. It must make the job more onerous.

Could it be a safety problem?

Well, we will see. However, if there is ever a public enquiry following a major airline accident involving one of these poorly paid pilots then the issue will surface prominently.

'First Officer Bloggs had flown 99 hours in the previous 28 days. At the time the aircraft left the runway he had just completed his fifth sector at the end of a 7 day roster pattern. First Officer Bloggs had previously been the subject of criticism within the crewing department for refusing to operate the aircraft into discretion. The enquiry considers that this subtle pressure may have influenced his decision to operate when he was probably in a fatigued state'

'First Officer Bloggs had agreed to have the cost of his type conversion training deducted from his first six months salary. As such he was only being paid £2.00 per flying hour. This meant a maximum gross monthly pay of £200.00. The Enquiry noted that he was heavily in debt at the time and was unable to afford accommodation in the Heathrow area. Thus he was in the situation of commuting daily from his sisters house on the south coast. This daily journey involved a round trip commute of 4 hours.'

'The Enquiry recommends that airline pilots are paid in accordance with the national minimum wage. It further recommends that airlines are required to fund and provide their own type conversion courses.'

[Chokdee]

It's a tricky one the self funded debate, but I reckon it has to be a consideration. After working as a Joiner/Carpenter (Net monthly income 520 stg) I decided to become a pilot. Sacrifice number one. A few loans later, interspersed with loads of hardwork, I finally became a Flying Instructor (Net monthly income 400 stg). Financially, sacrifice number two but great fun. Next came the ATP/CTC, whatever you want to call it, scheme. Huge sacrifice this one, six grand loan, pass the course, no salary, flying allowance only and no guarantee of a job at the end of the summer's flying. Assuming the course was passed, the six grand was paid back to you in monthly instalments, so the bank manager quite liked that. It's one big struggle, but you need to be willing to make the sarifices, because the guy next to you sure as hell will. Almost eight years have passed since the ATP/CTC course, but even now if I found myself out of work I would again make sacrifices, depending on the severitiy of the situation. I hope this gives some people the motivation to continue in what can be a very frustrating industry,
Rgds.

[Mr Magoo]

Hey Danny - Sign me up for the type rating and two quid an hour for six months deal. If you do the sums it's the ideal scenario as I get my type rating worth 20K+ with a job waiting at the end. Like flying Farmer I'm 41 now and can't afford to either wait the proverbial year or two for the market to turn round or pay upfront for a rating with no prospect of a job at the end of it.

Maybe you could organise something with Hamrah and give us keen old 'uns a go. Are you on for it Capt?

[Flopsie]

Ditto...

It's another "Depression" and times are hard. I can't afford to pay for my type rating but if it means low (or no) pay for 6 months, then I'll do it. In my case, that's better than being unemployed for 18-24 months.

[nicosnoko]

Danny,


Which airlines is doing the 2 pounds an hour no basic pay business, in other words it means that you are changing F/O quite often as new guys keep coming and the old ones have to leave.

I can in someway understand getting paid 2 pounds an hour during your line training and still.....

I agree that doing this scheme is better than being unemployed, but on the other hand what about the F/O allready qualified for this company.....?????

Ciao Danny...

...

[scroggs]

I think that many wannabes' expectations are far too high! When, in a time of high aircrew unemployment, the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet demand a type rating and a minimum of 500 hours on type, who do you think they're looking for? A bunch of newly-qualified guys with the minimum qualifications? Or some of the large number of unemployed who already meet their specifications?

The answer to that is fairly obvious. Some here have already intimated that airlines do need to look to the future, even in tough times, so they set their minimum qualification requirement at a level that will ensure that some newish guys get in. However, most of their recruits in these times will comfortably exceed these minimum requirements. Of course, schools will pick up on these minima and offer to train you to this minimum standard - at a cost, and without guarantees. Hey, they're out to earn a living too! But you are presumably intelligent, and can distinguish the opportunists from the long-term operators.

Times are now beginning to look more positive, at least in UK. The market is gradually realising (as CH4 implies) that there are fewer experienced guys out there. The minimum qualifications will soon drop, and at the same time the remunerations will improve - especially at those operators who stand to lose their experienced Shed/F50/Bandit pilots to the entry-level jet operators. That's the way the market works.

Those of you who have an fATPL and feel aggrieved that you don't have a jet job have no concept of the way the world works. Even in the high times in the USA and Europe, very few left training with an intro to a B737 or whatever. Right now, there are 5000+ hour jet pilots in the US scratching for B200 jobs. Such was the impact of 9/11 there. Even here, there are still many experienced jet pilots made unemployed post 9/11 who haven't come back. Some of them never will.

So, should you get a rating? I personally disapprove of newly-qualified fATPLs getting a jet rating. In general, I think you're wasting your time - but I recognise that some succeed this way. If you're determined to do it, then at least make sure that you use a reputable trainer. A turboprop rating is a different matter. Most TP operators are never going to be able to afford to pay your ratings for you, but if you'll meet them halfway they'll give you great experience in the certain knowlege that you'll move on in time. If, after a few years in the TP business, you're unlucky enough to be looking for a jet job when there aren't many about, then maybe you'd be justified in paying for a jet rating. I just don't see the need when you're brand new to flying. As for those who complain about the commercial organisations who charge you large amounts of money for the qualifications you want, ask yourselves whether or not you are playing into their arms with your expectations to be flying a jet a few months after you've achieved your CPL?