Fun and Games in ZRH

[Few Cloudy]

This weekend at ZRH - always a pleasure to operate to/from - the new German appeasement rules came into effect, whereby approaches over the Black Forest (that means ILS approaches to the main runways 14 and 16) are banned at certain times of day / certain days of the week.

The result has been non-precision approaches in theoretically open conditions which actually proved to be worse than marginal. Several Go Arounds and several changes of runway led to big delays and short of fuel situations, while the nice ILS installations on 14 and 16 went unused.

The ZRH ATC has to contact the Germans to get exceptional permission to use these approaches and if the actual wx looks open to them, they don't give it.

As we mentioned before, this is what you get when you let politicians interfere in complicated technical matters - and as for appeasement, well that didn't work once before according to Basil Fawlty.

On the good neighbours front, local action groups south of the airport have been protesting that their houses are being overflown - to the amusement of the rest of the locals, who get much more traffic still.

As for the German reaction, they say it is the fault of the Swiss, who should have installed ILSs on all runways (lead time around 2 yrs by the way) way back.

So the scene is set for a jolly time for all but spare a thought for ATC and the Crews, who are trying to do a professional job in the face of farce.

[middlepath]

Just two simple answer:


1: What is stoping the swiss to install ILS on the other side? give me just two good reason.

2: Swiss has to learn to stop the habit of taking advantages only, they have to learn to share burden as well with the rest of the EU when you are situated in the middle of EU. enough said.

[Robert Vesco]

In last months Swiss inflight magazine, ZRH was called a "comfortable and efficient HUB" and "one of the world´s largest airports!" Hahahaha! Sweet dreams! :zzz:

[320DRIVER]

And lets remember that this was one of the factors which led to a Swiss RJ100 being scattered on a forest floor (not to mention the loss of human life) not too long ago ... alas, what short memories...

[Juan_Moment]

Had the very untenable position a few months back where we were inbound to ZRH on a Sunday night, dark but reasonable wx and told to hold at Ekrit, delay not determined.

Fuel situation was OK as were tanking fuel in so the 40 minute hold (as it turned out) was do-able, but on investigation the reason was due to ATC trying to launch 18 aircraft off 32 and so all inbound aircraft had to hold. As an ex-controller this is a ludicrous example of setting priorities, as the airport was empty when we arrived so there shouldn't have been a problem with stand allocation. There were several diversions.

I notice BA have linked up with Swiss to use the 'major hub' of Zurich. Laugh, I nearly bought a round...

[ZRH]

The TWR at Zurich would only use rwy 32/34 for departing aircraft if the wx was below minima, but still letting inbound aicraft land rwy14/16(due noise) I think they cancel the use of rwy 28 if the vis drops below 5000m and/or cloud base is below 1500'.
Dont know why they would start so many aircraft in one go and then leave the inbound tfc turning away in the hold. Maybe some ATC on delivery or ground got carried away..........
Having said that: The TWR guy has to get the departures out before a certain time and the arrivals in before a certain time every evening if he wants to avoid getting penalized by the state to the tune of CHF20000 if an aircraft lands or departs after the "curfew".!!
ZRH was called a "comfortable and efficient HUB" and "one of the world´s largest airports!" Hahahaha! Sweet dreams!

Yeah, I think that pipe dream is long over. The politicians and all the other disney characters that are running the show made sure of that.:yuk:

[Few Cloudy]

Well, Middlepath let's see -

Firstly the prevailing winds in ZRH are west and south - seldom north winds so strong that 34 or 32 would be required, so an ILS was never needed until the present situation. When needed (very rarely) then a circling was flown.

Secondly the approach from the north, although over hilly terrain is less problematic than the appproaches from the east or south.

So until the Teutonic (and, it has to be said lobbying from villages south of the Rhine) input no ILS was needed or envisaged for 28 or the other runways. Now, as mentioned above, it takes a long time to plan, measure, get permission for, order, install and evaluate an ILS. It also means a complete reorganisation of the airspace - holding areas, ATC training and coordination to incorporate it into an existing system.

So the impatient cutoff date imposed by the Germans quite simply didn't allow time to carry out the work.

Also, the people who live in areas previously far from aircraft noise don't take easily to the change, so you get inquiries lasting quite a time too. As a matter of fact, they are being overflown, even as the enquiries go on.

I was in the southern Black Forest a lot this wonderful summer - mainly by racing bike - and I saw quite a few ZRH inbound flights. I say saw, because I hardly heard anything. When you compare flights over 5000 ft clean and in idle thrust in approach with the racket you get with gear, flaps and thrust spun up at low height over the newly affected regions, there is no comparison.

Add to that Middlepath, that for most Schwarzwäldner ZRH is the home airport, I would say that your rant above about sharing the burden, is way out of line.

[Robert Vesco]

I was in the southern Black Forest a lot this wonderful summer - mainly by racing bike - and I saw quite a few ZRH inbound flights. I say saw, because I hardly heard anything. When you compare flights over 5000 ft clean and in idle thrust in approach with the racket you get with gear, flaps and thrust spun up at low height over the newly affected regions, there is no comparison.

Very true Few Cloudy, the noise complaints are indeed very artificial in nature.

But hey, now that Swiss Int. Air Lines has chosen for BA´s One World and not for Lufthansa´s Star Alliance, I guess that ´zee´ Germans are smelling blood and are going for the kill.

Who needs a Swiss HUB in ZRH if Lufty can fly all the pax to MUC and FRA? It´s just one more nail into the coffin of Swiss... :ouch:

[MPH]

Where all these residents around the south side of ZRH there before or after the airport was built? Maybe they could suggest a new location for the airport? Or, maybe they could all go and live in the 'black forest'? Complain..complain..complain, don't they love doing that in certain areas of the world.:hmm:

[Bearcat]

i hate to say it but will another aircraft scattered on the local forests of ZHR in marginal condts doing a NPA solve all the problems? i dont say this lightly and I hope it doesnt happen. for me i think 40mins extra fuel will be a done deal for all flights to ZRH even if its severe CAVOK. Fly safe.

[AN2 Driver]

Robert,


are you saying that Swiss should have chosen Lufthansa instead just to tell the Germans how well we appreciate what they are doing to us?

I personally was rather reliefed when the BA decision became known.

In my view, not only selling off SWISS to a competitor set out to eliminate it sooner or later would have been a very poor decision, but on top rewarding the behaviour of the German government towards a neighbour state would have been totally unacceptable.

----------------------

MPH,


the area south of the airport, particularly the one now most affected by low level final approach flying, has been there at the time the airport was built. It is a major suburb, actually several of them on the main traffic axis from the east of the country into ZRH city.

Also, it has to be noted that the north approaches are leading over relatively sparsly inhabited lands whereas in the south there is a good 200'000 people affected by the noise.

The German villages that apparently are behind this restrictions house some 3000 people, of which, according to local news, some 250 are organized in anti noise leagues. I have trouble believeing that the German Government would risk the good neighbourly relations with a neighbour state over these few guys, I rather think it came as a convenient excuse to eliminate a then very active emerging hub (bevore the Swissair bancruptcy). In any event, as it is now, the situation is totally unacceptable.

Best regards
AN2

[Max Angle]

Perhaps time for ICAO to step in and blacklist the place. Nice recieved this honour some time ago, nor sure if it is still blacked.

[EDDNHopper]

Robert Vesco:

Right. Now doubt, had Swiss opted for LH, most of this political show-down would have been stopped within a few weeks´time!

Also, this whole business must be seen as only a tiny part of a major EU-Switzerland controversy on traffic flows and environmental impact etc. The latest issue in line is - believe it or not - the future routing of freight trains into Switzerland and Italy. There are plans (and some agreements have already been achieved) to have them routed on the right (northern) side of the Rhine, i.e. on German territory, due to capacity problems in Basle. As you may guess, much to the "delight" of the German communities along the border. Now you are talking about 24 hrs of noise! Under these (new) circumstances the villages and towns concerned will remain adamant regarding the north approaches into ZRH. It all mingles together....

[Donald Dunbar]

bearcati hate to say it but will another aircraft scattered on the local forests of ZHR in marginal condts doing a NPA solve all the problems?

Hate to ask this, but if one would have to do, a non-precision approach in ZRH, down to minimums, and at the map had to do a missed approach, due to no ground contact, would this mean you are expected to end up in the forrest???? Strange airport if so.... :*


Don