Oh no, its "Practice pan, Practice pan" time again!!

[Tcas climb]

It is now time for all pilots, not to keep listening watch on 121,5 while in the vicinity of the British isles. That is unless you wan't to listen to constant practice pan calls.

[twistedenginestarter]

I've got a feeling this is sort of a mandatory part of the PPL nowadays.

PPLs are a important source of CPLs/ATPLs so it's all in a good cause.

Also if people are encouraged to seek help early on when they are lost, they stand much less chance of realizing where they are by that familiar shape of Heathrow .... half a mile of their starboard bow.

[Tcas climb]

twistedenginestarter

You are right. But the only place on the earth they do it on the emerg freq. is the British isles. The rest of the world keep the emerg. freq. free from clutter, like practice pans.

[Luftwaffle]

Why must they actually transmit the practice PAN calls? Isn't enough for the student to state the frequency he would use, then say the "transmission" aloud to the instructor? The instructor could then provide "radar vectors" or other instructions as a demonstration of what the student could expect in such an emergency. If I made an actual transmission on 121.5 about my "practice" emergency, I bet I'd be promptly instructed to "copy a number" for a proper chewing out once I had landed.

[Stan Evil]

Part of the reason for the encouragement of Practice Pans and Training Fixes is that the UK has (uniquely? - correct me if I'm wrong) a V/UHF fixer service on 121.5 and 243.0, and the Distress and Diversion controllers actually want the practice so that, when it's for real, they do their usual superb job. The reason that they can't do it all on another frequency is that their chain of VDF fixers around the UK are set on 121.5 and they'd need another chain to work another frequency.

[Teenyweeny ATC Cdt Cpl]

Luftwaffle-
The only time D&D will notify *anyone* about a call on 121.5 is if there is a resulting accident or incident.

And to everyone who disagrees with this practice:
I (as a PPL student) shall certainly make practice-Pan calls - I know my instructor (not someone in West Drayton) - this is not a realistic environment therefore, and why not use the real thing if it is available?
1) D&D like the practice
2) You can always stop a Practice Pan if a real Pan or Mayday takes place
3) Why are you whinging if it may save someone's life one day?

If more student PPL's were encouraged to famliarize themselves with the excellent service provided by D&D then it might just help them in an emergency.
-tacc

[CaptainSquelch]

Flying around Europe I try to keep guard (121.5) open as much as possible to be of assistance to anybody who needs help. This seems to me the least I can do. I hope that when I need it there is at least one fellow pilot or a controller who listens to my distress call.

The sad thing is that when there is too much useless noise like "Practice Pan" or "Practice Mayday" calls or just stupid chatting on the freq I switch it off so my normal comm can get the attention it needs. I see most of my Effo's do the same.

The result is that less people will be listening in on guard and maybe, just maybe, on that very special once in a lifetime day everybody switched guard off.

Wouldn't that be sad?

[Luftwaffle]

Teeny Weeny said:
---
Luftwaffle-
The only time D&D will notify *anyone* about a call on 121.5 is if there is a resulting accident or incident.
---
And that provides the last piece of the puzzle for me to figure out how you could get away with practice Mayday calls.

In Canada we don't have a separate agency monitoring 121.5. It is monitored by control towers, flight services stations, and en route traffic that have a spare radio. If I were to make a transmission on 121.5 during my working day I would be directly alerting numerous busy air traffic controllers. See why I think I'd be told to "copy a number"?

Conversely, DF steers here are provided by certain towers on their own frequencies. A controller told me the equipment was quite useful, because when a pilot made a regular transmission he could tell from the equipment which direction the pilot was coming from, and not have to rely on student pilots' ideas of what constitutes "east" or "west" of the control zone. The VDF equiipment here doesn't seem to require a network on any one frequency.

[Teenyweeny ATC Cdt Cpl]

I'm afraid I can't comment on Canada, sorry http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif. I can understand what you say, and this is why the system in the UK is excelllent.
However, I know that you can't make practice Mayday calls (because it says so in my RT book here...)
The thing with VDF is it provides a bearing, not a fix. For a plane in distress to be found you need two or three VDF's to produce a position fix. Without SSR and xpdr's this is the best way to find an a/c. In the UK D&D reckon they can find a non-SSR equipped a/c anywhere in the UK above 2500' in about 20 seconds using VDF triangulation, and since this is already on the guard freq., the network of VDF's work best on 121.5.
-tacc

[This message has been edited by Teenyweeny ATC Cdt Cpl (edited 11 April 2001).]

[clockworkclown]

What a bunch of self oppinionated berks you airline pilots are. Practice pans are part of the PPL syllabus and are meant to both give D & D the practice and to encourage the budding pilot to contact them sooner rather than later when they are subsequently qualified and on their own. There have been far too many pilots who have delayed using 121.5 when lost because they have been indoctrinated with your arrogant ideas. These people have subsequently ended up as a mark on some granite. Don't ever forget that you used to be a green student at one time, one bad medical is all it needs for you to be less able to fly than that student you are listening to on 121.5!!!

[Moonbeam Purple]

Tcas and CaptainSquelch - Well said!

clockworkclown - How about encouraging every single younster in the UK schoolsystem to make a practice call to the Firedepartment and of course the Police department in their neighbourhood just to make shure that tings are as they should be! Naaahh on the other hand, maybe not a good idea - the same goes for making practice calls on 121.5! The result is as allready stated in this thread, and we all know the story about Peter and The Wolf!

MP

[fireflybob]

I believe the military have an alternative UHF Freq (245.1) for practice PANS so that 243.0 is left clear for the real thing. Why can't we do the same with VHF?
However, I do agree that Practice Pans are in the PPL syllabus and that there should be nothing particularly taboo about using 121.5, assuming pilots listen out first.

------------------

[Capt Wannabee]

The idea behind the practice Pan is to show no-one bites. If you were told about it, but never used it, when the day comes you might delay thinking 'Oh I don't think this is serious enough yet'.
Practice Pans do not present a danger as you:
a) listen first
b) Get given a go ahead before you proceed
c) shut up if anything real commences

It may be a slight irritation to people but we have to learn and matters of safety are important. If you know that when you are in trouble a calm, friendly voice is there to advise you (because you have already used it)it will make a difference.

[This message has been edited by Capt Wannabee (edited 11 April 2001).]

[Scando]

Fine.
But don't expect my ear on the frequency if you're at the bottom of some valley yelling for help. I'm not listening anymore.

[bookworm]

It would be interesting to compare:

a) the number of lives saved in the UK by aircraft guarding 121.5

and

b) the number of lives lost because, for lack of knowledge of their capabilities, a timely distress or urgency call was not made to London D&D

I fear that a) is remarkably low, and b) distressingly high.

[Scando]

Bookworm,
You are suggesting British aviators are incapable of turning theory into practice, and that we all should cease monitoring 121.5? Interesting.

[Phoenix_X]

Well said Bookworm, I personally listen out on 121.5 whenever I can and I see little problem with practise PANs. When they distract me from VHF1 I simply turn down the volume for a couple of minutes, after that they're finished anyway.

Scando, if you're seriously saying that there is no psychological difference between beeing tought someone is there and they should be nice and friendly, and KNOWING there's someone friendly there then you might want to do a bit more HP&L in my view.

Practice PANs are a good thing, I think so, and the people working in D&D when I was visiting not too long ago seemed to think so too. As bookworm said I believe they save more lives (or at least emberassments) than they cost.

--Edited to correct a couple of typos--

[This message has been edited by Phoenix_X (edited 12 April 2001).]

[pigboat]

What is the reply to "practice PAN," practice pizza?

(Sorry, I don't know what came over me.) http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif

[Capt Wannabee]

I am glad to see some people realise the importance of new pilots becoming familiar and comfortable with Pan calls.

With regards to Scando and his comment on ignoring my yelping when I am lost in a valley, I totally understand how irrating my crys for help could be. When I watch the news and see footage of fellow humans in train crashes or earthquakes I too become irratated with the yelps for help!

[HugMonster]

To all those who find the stuttering attempts of students to get it right, and fail to see why the heck they just can't say what they mean, why they can't see the runway, blah blah blah...

Ever stop and wonder how irritating you were to professional pilots when you were a student?

Practise Pans are very useful. They not only assist students in seeing how easy it is to use a facility if later they get into trouble, they also assist the controllers in being fluent with their procedures.

Get a life, get a little sympathy with learners and stop being arrogant know-it-all prats.

[Scando]

Thanks Wannabe, nice comment!
If you take the time to read my post once more, you'll see the only reason you won't get my attention is because I'm not listening, my volume is turned down. And happy easter to you too!

Phoenix, The rest of the world (except the Chinese) try to keep 121.5 free from all chatter. Your practice affects listening watch far outside your airspace. Guard frequencys should be left open and guarded until they are needed. To me, it's as simple as that. Happy easter!

[Scando]

Hug Monster,

This is not about stuttering, it's about what frequency you should do the stuttering on.

Your last remark was uncalled for.

[HugMonster]

No, it's not about what frequency you should do it on. 121.5 is the only D&D frequency available, as has already been pointed out. Or would you prefer the expense of installing an entire bunch of new transmitters and DF equipment?

As for my last comment, it was perhaps a tad strong. However, I have very little sympathy with people who have forgotten what it was like to be a student and now think that because they wear a nice dark uniform with shiny stripes on the sleeve that all students should keep out of their way, be (occasionally) seen but not heard, and not inconvenience anyone higher up the food chain by disturbing their calculations of their stock portfolio.

[Redline]

I'm really shocked that the commercial fraternity ( that I am part of) takes this odd arrogant attitude towards this thread. In times gone by when I was instructing I used to let my students make a practice pan and it was very satisfying to see their genuine appreciation of how wonderful the DD service is and that it can really save a##es if they get in difficulty. It gave them that little bit of confidence to move forward in their cross countries etc.

Did all you arrogant s...bags never start at hour zero and have to learn!

Whenever DD was busy, they politely told us to go away and the student then had a graphic demonstration of people using the UK DD for its intended purpose.

I still stay in contact with some of my students and I know that DD has got at least one of them home. Nuf said!

[slam_dunk]

1. Emergency frequencies are there for one reason: To use in an emergency !!!
2. Every pilot / controller should monitor this frequency whenever possible, it can save your life or someone else life!

Practice pan calls can be done in other ways f.i. On a normal Atc frequency when the frequency is not too busy.
The only place in the world where they do these practices are in England, the rest of the world is not doing it!
This has nothing to do with forgetting how I was trained when I learned to be a pilot, I was never trained to do practice pan calls on an emergency frequency.

[HugMonster]

slam dunk, have you actually read the thread?

ATC DO NOT have the DF capability on any other frequency. They generally welcome the practice. If the only thing to happen was "Thank you for your Practice Pan - goodbye" then I would agree. However, there is rather more to it than simply coming out with the correct info on the Pan call.

It is a gross oversimplification to say that "Emergency channels are for emergencies only". Emergency procedures need to be practised. And a significan part of the practice cannot be done on any other frequency. So allow people (ATC and student pilots) to practise them.

[BEagle]

In a country with congested airspace such as the UK, it is vital that a lost pilot gets help quickly before wandering into controlled airspace and getting in the way of all the lager-lout people-tube drivers on their way to Oybeetha from Lootnairpawt or wherever. Acknowledgment of their predicament and prompt use of the D&D fixer service will achieve this - but pilots need sufficient confidence to use it correctly. For that they need some practice.

Last time a student and I used 121.5 for a Practice Pan, it also assisted West Drayton in locating a duff site.

The inconvenience to others of Practice Pan calls can be minimised by off-air practice first; students WILL still need the odd practice though. The only alternative would be vastly improved LARS in the UK - which is unlikely!

The arrogance of some so-called professionals whining about students practising safety procedures is unbelievable!!

[gul dukat]

Huggy ..."ATC DO NOT have the DF capability on any other frequency." Not true we have the df (qdr/qdm) accurate to plus or minus a few degrees on Tower,Approach Radar,Radar two and 121.5 .So if you want to practise a practice pan you can on all of the frequencies .I can offer general navigation assistance from the df until I can get you identified and then get you home or as near as dammit !!. The thread says that we welcome practice pans ..to an extent this is true HOWEVER if I am up to my ears in stuff it is the LAST thing I want to hear ...maybe for you instructors out there a little call to the tower before hand ?? It is great practice for the guys in radar and helps our trainees.Keeps everyone sharp !!

SLAMDUNK the FIRS in Britain consist of more than ENGLAND!!!!! rant over

[ShyTorque]

The points for use of 121.5 for UK training calls are:

1. The UK D&D organisation wish the frequency to be used for practice calls. It proves the auto-triangulation system works on a daily basis and assists them with controller training.

2. The UK pilot training system requires its use for reasons already stated.

3. Trainee pilots gain from its actual use for practice.

4. By hearing others using it each pilot can be sure that a) he has it dialled and that b)his set is working correctly.

Against it?

It annoys some self-centered pilots, but surely far less than a busy in-use frequency.

Seems to me that the attitude of those against its use is similar to the attitude of those who want minor airfields closing on the premise of noise, but still want to travel to their holiday by air i.e. NOT IN MY BACK YARD.

If it annoys or becomes a distraction then why not use the volume switch or temporarily deselect it. Or is that too much trouble?

[Scando]

I have now reread the whole tread. Not one single negative comment about "newbies" or students anywhere. We are discussing the use, or misuse of guard frequencys, thats all. We differ in opinion. Fine.
Maybe we all should read first, and answer later? Preferably with a 10 minute cool-off period in between?

[piston broke]

Forgive my ignorance, but who are all you people that listen to guard, and how /why do you have the inclination/time to do it?

The arguments for practice PANs is surely self-evident, training pilots that it works, and operators in making it work, but why why why do people (presumably Airline crews) listen to it.

A call put out on guard anywhere (well, in 99% of Europe above 250' is going to be picked up by a ground agency or five. I can see the point in Canada/Africa/ocean routes, but Europe?

Frankly I cant believe anyone has the time/spare capacity to do this in Europe, or is this a contributory factor in all those missed RT calls?

For info in nearly 3000 hrs of airline flying in 4 companies I have never seen or heard of anyone doing this, hence my surprise. (apart from the surprise that any prof pilot would object to a stude being trained in safety procedures)

[This message has been edited by piston broke (edited 13 April 2001).]

[Hew Jampton]

Piston Broke
How many of your five ground agencies are going to pick up a signal from somebody down in a valley in a mountainous area, eg Alps, Scottish Highlands, or in a Mae West in the Bay of Biscay, Mediterranean etc? You must have worked for some pretty callous companies and/or flown with some callous individuals where guarding 121.5 on Box 2 is not SOP over such areas. Satellites will probably pick up such signals eventually, but only on the next pass over the area, which might be too late. Having made, heard and relayed several 121.5 signals in my career so far, perhaps I can vouch for how important it can be.

[slam_dunk]

Scando, I agree with you. We all just have a different opinion about the use of “guard” frequencies.
I think this is a healthy discussion, and I would like to sum up some conclusions.
Maybe my first input to this thread was a bit too offending, I’m sorry if I stepped on somebody’s toes.

1. We all agree it’s good airmanship to monitor 121,5/243,0 whenever possible.
2. If these guard frequencies are too much “misused” people switch them off or turn the volume down (and forget to switch them “on” again)
3. It is possible to do DF on “normal” ATC frequencies (see gul dukat’s posting)

Question:
If you train a student a procedure “What to do when you get lost” is it necessary to use a guard frequency in this procedure?
By the way : I am an airline pilot and an instructor pilot on small aircraft.

[HugMonster]

Gul - sorry, I over-simplified. Of course you have DF on many frequencies.

However, many units are not so blessed as yours. Furthermore, I am prepared to bet a month's pay that you cannot triangulate on ANY of your frequencies.

One of the main reasons for permitting Practice Pans, as has been stated time and agin, is to allow the guys at D&D to practice as well.

If people find it's too tiring having to listen to it, then I have lots and lots of sympathy. However, they are far better kept on 121.5 (forget 243 - not many C152's are UHF-equipped) than on a busy APP frequency.

[excrewingbod]

During my RT training, the RT instructor - active ATCO, advised to make the initial distress/urgency call on the active frequency, as someone was more likely to hear it, especially here in the UK.

He also pointed out, that D&D do actively encourage practice pan calls on 121.5 so they can check that the fixing kit works and use it for training. There was also an excellent article in Pilot magazine last year about this very subject.

[incubus]

excrewingbod:
In some parts of the UK (Up here in Scotland where there are fewer airfields and plenty of obstructions to line-of-sight), D&D does have its limitations at low/GA altitudes.

The main reason I was given for making calls on the current frequency is that you are already talking to someone, hopefully they have you on radar and can advise you better and certainly the last thing you want to od is change something you don't need to and end up not being able to talk to anyone :-)

If you can't raise anyone or if you are talking to a "roger, out" FIS, you may be better off switching to 121.5 if you are temporarily uncertain of your position :-)

[twistedenginestarter]

For the UK, I really don't know why you're listening out guys. If I'm in a little plane - which I hope to be this weekend - I don't calculate on you entering the scene so don't listen on my behalf.

I want someone to know exactly where I am an d to be able to guide me to a field in the event of a problem. Most likely I've gone IMC without radio aids or with some radio aid problem.

Or my engine just went bang and I'm over the Peak district. My needs are not information and support but an ambulance and a fire engine.

[ShyTorque]

It could be argued that if you never make a practice call on 121.5 then you will never know if it actually works in your local area at your typical operating height. Sometimes it may be the best option, sometimes not.

[Orion1]

Pistonbroke, I cant understand how you regard monitoring Guard (what should be a quiet freq if it wern't for all the practice PAN calls out there) as requiring 'spare capacity' Come on, it's not that hard. The freq should only be used for real problems. I monitor it all the time, and have heard a number of real calls, long before the ground agencies have picked them up.
D&D could surely oranise a dedicated test aircraft to ensure they get appropriate training couldn't they?
As for all all the comments about getting lost and needing the service - simple answer- more nav training to ensure the chance of getting lost in the first place is remote! Who are all these pilots flying around and not knowing where they are anyway?
"twisted.." made an interesting comment, and perhaps I missed something in my training, but going IMC without the appropriate radio aids then needing ATC help to get out of it? I always thought you checked the Wx BEFORE flying, and made a sound airmanship "D" as to whether ot not you and yor A/C were fully equipted to go flying in such conditions.
Leave 121.5 for real problems, not practice ones.

Deep blue ocean, calm blue sea...

[twistedenginestarter]

This is a real Mayday.

Light aircraft (say PA28) flying at night from Ireland to Southern England. Approaching English coast the pilot is disturbed by the low readings on both fuel gauges. To satisfy himself this is an error he switches to the emptier tank. Shortly the engine dies. He switches to the other tank. Not many minutes to go now.

Mayday Mayday Mayday.

Unbeknown to him a baffle has moved in the silencer and fuel consumption has doubled.

D&D don't seem to do much. They simply tell him who is open (say Valley), freqencies, direction miles-to-go, and make all the necessary arrangements. OK he or others should have been able to do the same things. But this is an emergency and every second is precious. The professionals are fast, accurate and don't waste a single syllable of airtime. They know the pilot is under deadly pressure and fighting to save lives.

They all make it with not a moment to spare.

If this sort of thing requires a bit of practice pan. I think it's worth it.

[Speedbird252]

Twisted, I offer to have your babies.

It has been said proper - accept.

Yet again TES arrives - agree.

Well said mate - Speedy.

[PanicButton]

Is someone crying wolf?

------------------
Nothing to see here, just making use of the internet!

[aiming point]

Yes the Brits. are a pain in the ear with this archaic practice of practising on 121.5.
There are numerous reasons for pilots to tune VHF2 to 121.5 for silent monitoring aside from a possible "mayday relay" or notification of ELB signals, including having a second common frequency to allow ATC or other aircraft to contact you on to provide timely notification of an unnoticed failure of VHF1 or mistuning of com. frequencies.
Manys the time in busy European airspace l've heard ATC chase up and locate an aircraft on 121.5 that had missed or misset a frequency transfer.
The rest of the world seems to be able to train and nurture perfectly safe and competant pilots without this need to continuously practise on 121.5 so whats wrong with the UK.

[Tcas climb]

I wonder what would have been said on this thread, if it was the French that had come up with a system like this?

[Delta Wun-Wun]

I have made one "Practise Pan" call whilst with an Instructor when I was training for my PPL.I was very impressed with the accuracy of the D and D controller.It certainly helped my confidence should it all go wrong that there is help available out there.

------------------
GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!

[PeeToo]

Hey, thats a thought...

I'll stop making practice pan calls in the UK, when the US pilots stop perpetually inadvertently activating their ELT's in the US.
Then we can have 121.5 silence on both sides of the pond

[Stroppalot]

Aiming point - a very well made point. Of course, the US never clog up 121.5 with anything other than genuine emergencies, do they?

Oh. Hold on. What about ELT's? Oh dear, that's blown that argument.

But of course, unintentional ELT activation is far less likely to cause un-warranted SAR activity than an RT call preceeded by >>>>>>PRACICE<<<<<<< PAN, >>>>>>>>PRACTICE<<<<<<<< PAN, isn't it?

[aiming point]

Unfortunately PeeToo and Stroppalot you missed the point.
Yes an inadvertent activation of an ELB is a nuisance to be avoided.
But one is an accidental pain in the ear and the other is a deliberate pain in the ear.
Now go figure it out!

[HugMonster]

Yes, one is an accidental pain in the ear that can carry on for hours on end, and totally jam the frequency, and does no good for anybody.

The other is an intentional pain in the ear that familiarises studes with the procedure, encourages them to use the facilities at their disposal, helps controllers stay current with the RT/phone/liaison and triangulation procedures, and can be cancelled at any time that the frequency is required for an emergency.

OK, some "hot shot" pilots dislike students impinging on their nice comfortable worlds, would prefer to forget that they were once studes whose RT was slow, hesitant and unsure, and would prefer them to be neither seen nor heard.

It is generally considered that the British system produces the highest standards in the world. Having seen standards in many other parts of the world, this is certainly my view as well. How far would you like standards and safety margins here to be degraded?

Those who dislike having to listen - you don't have to. Stop whingeing, have a bit of sympathy for the tyros and trainees and get a life.

[slam_dunk]

Sorry Hugmonster, I totally disagree with you.
This has nothing to do with “Hot shot pilots” ! We’re just trying to keep the emergency frequencies quiet as long as possible !!
Both emergency frequencies are misused for practice pans by the military and civilians in the U.K.
I’ll repeat my question: Why can’t you do this practice- which is a very good practice for a student - on a “normal” Atc frequency (which is not too busy) ??
Also it sounds quite arrogant if you talk about the “British system” which produces the highest standards in the world. Get alive !!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Listen up.

PPL's lives have been lost by hesitancy to use 121.5

I have witnessed D&D cell - with me acting as Shepherd - save a light aircraft from certain death.

Therefore ANYTHING that dis-inhibits an early call to 121.5 is NECESSARY in my book.

The argument about a practice frequency is totally spurious. It defeats the ENTIRE point. Which is to use the real live thing and find out that it doesn't bite and you won't be arrested for using it.

For various pyschological reasons a pratice only frequency would not be fulfill the requirement.

WWW

ps its our airspace, our r/t policy and we WON'T take any help from the US in this respect.

pps D&D controllers are happy with the status quo, as are the PPL holders, as are the flying instructors, as are the CAA. Seems to me the only whiners are having their coffee chat distrurbed by a long promulagated flight safety training activity...

[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 21 April 2001).]

[slam_dunk]

Hi WWW,
Say do you lads OWN the 121,5 and 243,0 ??? because in your post that seems to be what you’re telling us.
So if we overfly the isles should we switch guard frequencies off ? so you can practice on them.
“Seems to me the only whiners are having their coffee chat disturbed by a long promulagated flight safety training activity... “
You totally miss our points, this issue is about making flying safer, keeping guard frequencies open all the time, not about coffee chat.
Slam_dunk

[HugMonster]

slamdunk, it is you who miss the point.

[list=a] 121.5 is the only frequency on which ATC can triangulate an aircraft's position ATC welcome the practice in use of the service Yes, the Radio and Telcommunications Agency in the UK "owns" the frequency within UK national borders If you're a foreign visitor to our skies, are you likely to be able to assist with a lost PPL if you don't know whether you're near Maidenhead or Maidstone? Dungeness or Dungeon Ghyll? If a genuine emergency occurs, you can cancel a Practice Pan under way All the evidence is that allowing Practice Pan calls on 121.5 aids in safety, rather than endangering it If you are a visitor to our skies, what entitles you to tell us what we permit? Yes, it may sound arrogant, but I have flown in every continent of the world except Antarctica, and in a huge range of countries. And I still maintain that a UK flying qualification is as good as, or better than any other.[/list=a]
If you don't like what goes on on 121.5, yes, you can always turn it off, or just turn it down temporarily. This is unlikely in the extreme to be a contributory cause of any accident.

[Scando]

Hug and WWW,

Transmissions within UK airspace do NOT stop when they hit the border.
This is NOT a US vs UK discussion, the world has other parts as well.
Those UK aviators who are incapable of using a service when it's needed, should be GROUNDED. They do NOT display English SUPERIORITY the way it should be done.
Emergencies are NOT limited to PPL drivers.
Evidence, Hug? Go ahead, the floor is yours!

And yes, your right, I did not observe the 10 minute cooldown period between reading and posting.

[HugMonster]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Transmissions within UK airspace do NOT stop when they hit the border.</font>Nobody claims they do. <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">This is NOT a US vs UK discussion, the world has other parts as well.</font>Agreed - so? <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Those UK aviators who are incapable of using a service when it's needed, should be GROUNDED.</font>Does this include PPL students, those who ask most for "Practice Pan"? <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Emergencies are NOT limited to PPL drivers.</font>Nobody ever claimed they were.

As far as I can see, your post bears no relevance whatsoever to the issue under discussion, and totally fails to understand the issues involved.

[Scando]

HugMonster,

Quote No1: You may own the frequencys within UK, but you can't stop transmissions from polluting far outside your airspace. Is this difficult to understand?

Quote No2: This was a response to WWW's post.

Quote No3: Applies to all of you. As you are the best in the world, this practice should not be necessary. Unless, of course, you mean the "Practice Pan" bit is what sets you apart from the rest of us. I firmly belive British pilots (coffee drinking types and wannabes alike) to be levelheaded and quite capable of using a facility when it's needed, without being spoonfed the procedure.

Now, as for the evidence part, do you care to produce some?

[HugMonster]

Scando, this is in danger of becoming ridiculous.

What makes the general standard of aviation in the UK so high is the level of the training, not some innate quality of the pilots. As for your ridiculous assertion that students should all be grounded because they are not up to scratch, well, it's plain to see that you've never been an instructor.

The simple facts of the matter are that:-
"Practice Pan" calls do not block the frequency for genuine emergencies "Practice Pan" calls would be inappropriate on frequencies other than 121.5 since[list=a] They would jam up a "working" traffic frequency It would be pointless from ATC's view since they would not get to practice their procedures[/list=a] Instructors will tell you that a PPL student is likely to be concerned about using 121.5 - putting out a "Practice Pan" removes that concern and shows them that it is no big deal, so they can use it without fear should they get themselves lost The only opposition to "Practice Pan" calls that I have seen on this thread comes from pilots who listen out and don't like hearing these calls Nobody has come forward with any evidence that[list=a] Commercial aircraft failing to listen out on 121.5 has contributed to any accident "Practice Pan" calls ever "blocked" the frequency for a genuine emergency.[/list=a]Until such evidence is forthcoming, other than people's irritation with student pilots, I see no reason to change the system when there is a very good case to be made for its continuance, with support from Students, Instructors, the CAA and ATC.


[This message has been edited by HugMonster (edited 22 April 2001).]

[Scando]

Hug,

Your opening statement is quite correct.

Now, when you say: "All the evidence is that allowing Practice Pan calls on 121.5 aids in safety, rather than endangering it", I trust you have some documentation to back this up.

As for: "The only opposition to "Practice Pan" calls that I have seen on this thread comes from pilots who listen out and don't like hearing these calls." I think you should reread the whole tread. It's about safety, it's about SOP, it's about keeping the frequency open for genuine users as it's done in most other countries. It's not about hating students, stuttering, or feeling superior (well, except for one who keep pointing out the fact that Britain Rules The World, aviationwise).

You are, or have been an instructor? You are correct in assuming I'm not. You are in possesion of knowledge I do not have, I grant you that much. In fact, you have now convinced me British students will rather crash and burn, than dial 121.5, ask for a fix and vectors for the nearest airfield. They need to be trained in this very complicated procedure.

Thank you!

Scando

[slam_dunk]

Scando,
Well said !!!

Hugmonster,
Can you please stop assuming that the reason we "complain" about this practice is that
"we don't like hearing these practices". the only reason is : to keep the frequency quiet all the time, otherwise people switch it off or turn it down !!
Furthermore as pointed out earlier in this thread :
a. Students CAN do their practices on a "normal" not too busy freq.
b. you CAN get a QDM/QDR on a "normal" freq.
c. ATC still gets it's practice.

As a matter of fact I flew with a collegue who told me he was saved once by listening out on 121,5 while ATC was calling him on that frequency.

If there's a button on the wall to call the firebrigade in case of a fire, do we all need to train our students by instructing them to press the button ? Or can we just tell them : If you would press the button in case of a fire you can expect ……

Slam_dunk

[HugMonster]

Scando:-
[list=1] Yes, I am an instructor. The frequency is still available for emergency calls. It is very easy (I've heard it happen) to cancel a practice pan when a genuine emergency comes up. I don't know anyone who would rather crash and burn. Your sarcasm does not aid this discussion. Please bin the attitude. However, many students (and PPLs) of my acquaintance who haven't used 121.5 for a practice pan are intimidated from using it, and many would, instead, bumble on, often into Controlled Airspace, when lost instead of calling up and asking for a position fix. This would not be a satisfactory state of affairs. It helps if they are confident that some ATCO will not make them feel a fool for having got lost. You and I know it's not a complicated procedure. Until they've tried it, many of them don't realise this. Practice helps them.[/list=a]
slam_dunk:-
[list=1] I don't see much effective difference in the reason you claim people don't like it. There are very few frequencies where practice pan calls could be made. It would require an ATC unit, not AFIS or Radio. 121.5, on the other hand, is generally very quiet. Yes, you can get QDM/QDR on many frequencies. However, you can not get a position fix by triangulation. ATC does not get their practice, since they don't get to practice. Have you been asleep? Position fixing by D&D Cell is ONLY AVAILABLE ON 121.5! Perhaps your colleague should have been listening on a normal watch frequency instead of listening to 121.5?[/list=a]

I reiterate - I see no sufficient reason to change the system. Nobody has produced any evidence that safety is being impaired, that the practice is not worth the effort. The only hard evidence for change is those pilots who don't like listening to practice pans and turn the volume down. Well, tough.

[straight&level]

1.I have been an instructor teaching commercial students in the UK until recently, now flying for an airline and I do monitor 121.5 when over remote area's.
2.Practice pan's were certainly part of the UK r/t syllabus.
3.As huggy put it it can be readily cancelled in case of genuine emergency-call prefixed London centre, G- ABCD request practice pan- if busy told to go away.
4. Perhaps most importantly regularly requested on our flying notice board that London had requested practice pans from us for controller practice-incidentally giving my students valuable practice,obviously in the us the controllers need no practice.
5.Will you please listen-121.5 is the only freq in the uk that offers autotriangulation-we do regularly practice vdf from suitably equipped atc units but it is only with practice that atc can offer a quick response with a position fix with a position overlayed on aviation chart or ordinance survey, and believe me they are quick.
6.If it is too much bother to monitor 121.5 without getting upset by the occassional practice pan close to uk airspace then don't-but personally I have never flown with anyone that it seems to upset as much as it does some of you-I would rather the speedy and competant response from practice than any other.
Question-As it is airline pilots who seem to be complaining,why in the simulator do you practice,practice,practice emergency handling until it becomes second nature???-would you deny ATC the same benefit of practice.

[This message has been edited by straight&level (edited 23 April 2001).]

[Scando]

Hug,

1. OK.
2. The frequency is not supposed to available for emergencies, it's reserved for emergencies.
3. Bumbling on into controlled airspace instead of calling up and asking for a position fix is the prefered method for British students temporary uncertain of their position. I'm sorry for suggesting otherwise. As for my attitude: "Get a life ,get a little sympathy with learners and stop being arrogant know-it-all-prats, and stop whinging and blah, blah, blah, certainly promotes love and understanding within our community.
4. I think you really, really underestimate your students.


Straight and level,

1. Ok.
2. But not the rest of the world.
3. See my answer to huggy.
4. In general I understood London ATC to be pretty busy (all sectors) but I'm relived to find this is not the case. I now get to practise my (poor) english.
5. Will you please listen-121.5 is the only frequency in the rest of the world thats reserved for emergencies ONLY.
6. We practice, practice, practise in the simulator because in the old days pilots used to die practicing in the aircraft. ATC (UK style, and I give them 10 points) hardly gets a heartattack if you ask them for a fix. My personal opinion, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Regards,

Scando

[HugMonster]

Scando, until you can come up with some evidence that UK practice endangers aircraft, does not result in ATC being able to practice their D&D Autotriangulation and emergency procedures for real, does not make for more confident PPL's and occupies badly needed resources, I suggest that this well-established procedure will continue, whether pilots from other countries like it or not.

This reply was originally longer and rather more scathing of your attitude. I thought better of it.

I shall leave it at this:-

The case for such a practice has been made, several times over. No case has been made against.

You disagree. Tough.

[ShyTorque]

Talk to yourselves, you silly and incompetent people who weren't born qualified pilots. Ignore your silly national procedures.

Don't you know that these selfish radio calls sometimes wake up real pilots who have to catch up with their sleep on long commercial sectors? That is very inconsiderate and annoying, especially if the volume is set too loud. There is nothing so tedious as reaching out to switch off the alarm clock.

Actually, I've not heard a single practice call on 121.5 in the last 3 weeks, but quite a few on other in-use ATC frequencies, which hassled a busy ATCO on one occasion.

[Checkboard]

It's always nice to have a thread that goes on for a while, but I think that all would agree this one is getting a little circular.

I like the fact that ATC actually monitor 121.5 in the UK. In Australia the only people monitoring 121.5 are the satellites (beacon signals only, please) and the airline pilots! As for a country wide position triangulation on the frequency, I am impressed!

As an aside, if you are a UK pilot visiting our skies, calling any emergency on 121.5 will only wake up a "coffee drinker", so be nice if you want a relay :)

Now in a total abitrary abuse of my moderator-ship, I am going to close this thread on the grounds of length (and lack of original argument :)). Those with separation anxiety may start again on a new thread.

------------------
Tech Log forum moderator

[This message has been edited by Checkboard (edited 28 April 2001).]