Request to ATC ?

[Goldfish Jack]

I have noticed a large increase in the amount of calls initiated to ATC, in the Cape Town FIR, for a request (from a pilot) and then no request is forthcoming!!

As you know, once you have established 2 way contact with ATC, it is not necessary to establish contact with that ATS unit again. However, recently, when some pilots want to make a request, they call ATC and announce they have a request and then wait for ATC to respond to them before the pass the request. It is not applicable to all pilots and not under all circumstances. Not only does it result in a massive amount of r/t workload, but it is unnecessary. Doing it this way requires 4 transmissions, where if you pass the request at the same time as you say you have a request, the whole "transaction/request" can be completed in 2 transmissions. ':p'

To the guilty parties: you do not establish contact with ATC when you want to request descent/further climb/visual approach(if your company does not prevent you from doing them), yet you establish contact when you want to change a level en-route/divert left or right for wx avoidance? ':ooh:' I know I repeated standard six (ask my old lady - she will tell you that as well!!), but it does not make sense to me.

SO this is a genuine appeal: It is not necessary to establish contact when you want to make a request, simply go ahead and make it. After all, once you have rung my doorbell and I have let you into my house, you do not ring my doorbell every time you want to talk to me ( or do you - in which case I will get pretty ':mad:' off and will ignore you) do you? We are all trying to reduce workload to enable us to handle more aircraft, but these (unnecessary transmissions) are not helping the cause. ':ok:'

Thanks and oh request, maybe if you do not do it properly we might have to ask you to say your request words twice, until you get it right. And then you will upset the bee-keeper.................... ':ok:'

[George Tower]

Goldfish

Just wondering whether the dodgy RT is predominantly from within the GA sector or commercial operators?

[Goldfish Jack]

GT

Believe it or not - the commerical operators. And the bigger the aircraft the worse it gets!!!

[yachtpilot]

Not just in Africa... I've noticed this mindless trend spreading over the past couple of years....a pilot hears it then hears it a couple of times more and before he realises it he's contracted the disease... ATC should admonish the pilot and the rest would sit up and take notice... the disease would then be erradicated very quickly..

[126,7]

Not only does it result in a massive amount of r/t workload

You're joking right? Cape Town and "massive workload" are a contradiction in terms:}

[MASTER H.O.C.T.]

Well said 126,7!!!!:ok:

Goldfish Jack, as a fellow collegue in the "busier sector" in SA I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. The RT time that is taken up increases the ATC workload to an unbelievable extent. The other major problem is the lack of discipline, especially in the commercial sector (the big boys:ooh: ) who appear to turn off their ears once they get into a busier environment. If I had 50 cents for every time I had to repeat a transmission (usually more than once) I wouldn't need to go to Dubai in the future!!:cool:

The "radio-discipline" in controlled airspace in SA is absolutely shocking and that's not just my opinion. The foreign contingent of controllers who have just joined us agree wholeheartedly!!!

[Goldfish Jack]

Hey 126,7 - you are right I am joking!!!!

It only becomes massive when you have to answer all the unnecessary reqeusts because pilots do not know how to make a request.

That makes us busy - not the traffic!!

Master HOCT: I agree wholeheartedly with you. The discipline is sadly lacking in some fleets and companies. They think the bigger they are the more arrogant they can get and we must accomodate them!! Wait until SAATS is up and running and they are in for a pleasant suprise!!!!

Spot you on the phone!! "request...!!"

[REAL ORCA]

Since this has now turned into an ATC bitching session, let me join in.

Agree with Goldfish Jack regarding the addisional transmission for a request to be made.

Disagree with Master H.O.C.T regarding repeat transmissions. To label it as purely bad discipline is underestimating the real probem. There are obviously other comms taking place on the flight deck other than pilot/ATC which is as vital to safe flight operations. In congested air space like JHB AREA, there is virtually a continous flow of information between ATC and pilots. Probably 1% of these calls are directed at you, but you must still monitor all transmissions, which make addisional comms (cabin crew, checklists, PA announcements etc) on the flight deck almost impossible.

A sollution to this would be to open up more sectors to cut down on the number of transmissions per frequency, BUT then we will probably end up in the HOLD again!:{

[Goldfish Jack]

Hi Real Orca

Interesting comments from another point of view!! Maar ek wag vir jou!!

Geluk ':ok:' with the course and putting up with Sker for so long!!!! ':p'

Request: When you buying the drinks??????? (sorry I missed that say again??) ':ouch:'

Groete

[Current Limiter]

Having flown in many parts of the world, it is my experience that the general RT is as good or bad as the ATC allows it to be. So if there is something that isn't according to procedures then remember that it was you that issued that radio licence in the first place. Say something to the offending party, and he will never do it again, don't just let it pass and wind yourself up about a situation that you have the power to change.

I was also wandering if - like aircrew - is it mandatory for controllers to do CRM courses? After all, they are as much part of the successful completion of any flight. I have never been on course where there has been an ATC. If not required for your currencies, why not come along and join in with us, then perhaps we can all work in the same direction........

[Donald Dunbar]

I am wondering what a "boer" is, but something tells me that Goldfish Jack qualifies as one. Am I right?


Love Don

[REAL ORCA]

Goldfish Jack, WE thank you! No requests this time.....:ok:

[V1 Rotate]

I don't know how busy Cape Town is these days.
At the moment I am doing a lot of flying in the US where the traffic is probably slightly busier than Cape Town.

Due to the high volumes of traffic here, The standard phraseology would be "New York Centre N1234 request", and then wait for the controller to say " N1234 go ahead the request ", when you would say " N1234 request climb 350...or whatever".
This is because the controller is so busy controlling a multitude of targets at the same time and cannot bounce around out of the sequence of his controlling.

Goldfish Jack, try flying in and out of DFW with five parrallel runways a pumping on a Monday morning, then you will see what chaos you would cause if you were to burble out your whole request without invitation from the controller!

Maybe some of these pilots of big birds that you refer to have had exposure to such traffic in London or the US.

V1 Rotate

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[orgasmotron]

In my opinion I tend to agree with Real Orca. Many a time, just getting right to it by saying "xyz request right of track due weather" as ATC would like us to do, it is often followed by "Station calling ABC say again your request" or "XYZ say again". Now we are bombarded with extra RT by ATC and the meantime breakfast is getting cold. I have found this to happen more often in the less congested airspaces in SA.

I can only assume that this is due to ATC being human, same as us, and when it is not so busy, like us, start digging into serious conversation about who knows what.

I think, "ABC, XYZ request, is often a nice way not to spill the oaks coffee al over his newspaper in order for him to promptly tend to your request, especially on the rustige days.

Thanks anyway for the brilliant controlling in SA.

[Goldfish Jack]

Hey Donald... NO i am not BOER, but a South African and very proud of it.

I can say this has certainly stirred up a hornets nest! I think that we all have got a lot to learn and having just spent some in the UK and visiting Gatwick, We have got a lot to learn down at the bottom of Africa!

Oh for a system like the UK that works efficiently and well, not that SA's does not, but there is a hell of a lot of room for improvement, both from ATC and pilots sides!

There are exciting times ahead, with ATNS upgrading their systems and with some of the work being done. Lets hope all the participants come to the party and we can achieve everything we are talking about right now!!

Dont say your request - just type it!!!!! Roll on CPCDL

[George Tower]

Goldfish

Seen as you've visited LGW perhaps you could tell us what you think of the system we have over here. I have little knowledge of the workings of ATC except from my experiences as a PPL but the perception is that the UK system is seriously overstretched to almost dangerous levels.

[V1 Rotate]

George Tower,

In Europe the whole thing is governed by slot times, so the volumes are controlled by ATC themselves. So it is not possible for it to become-

" seriously overstretched to almost dangerous levels. "

If you think Gatwick is busy, try Chicago or Atlanta!

I have personally flown in South Africa, The US and Europe and always found the controlling to be of a high standard in all three countries.

Problem in South Africa is that the controllers aren't paid enough which results in a continual "Brain drain" of good controllers.

V1

[George Tower]

V1,

I should have said that was the media's perception not necessarily my own.

Interesting to note your comments on the "brain-drain" as I know this is the case not only in ATC but across most professions in SA with pay not the only issue. Funnily enough I was speaking to an ATC from a certain place that is my pprune name, and he said that he refused an opportunity in the UK due to the poor pay. So perhaps the grass isn't always greener?

[Donald Dunbar]

Great country's, South Africa and Europe, also atc in Northern America is good, that's because it's a great country also..... Geography at its best.....

[Warlock2000]

"Oh for a system like the UK that works efficiently and well.."
Not too sure about that, been bounced about a bit going into LHR, LGW, MAN, BHX in the past. Yes we're all human and the system works, but it's not flawless...
As for SA, I have always found ATC to be of a good standard, just don't understand why JNB always repeat your callsign after a tranmission: eg:
ATC: "XXX, Climb F310"
XXX: " Climb F310, XXX"
ATC: "XXX"

As for CPDLC, all I can say is YEAH, BABY, YEAH!! No more HF

[REAL ORCA]

Goldfish Jack

These people are talking about a "brain-drain" of ATC's from South Africa! Isn't that a contradiction in terms?:} :} :ouch:

Relaxxxx, just joking:ok:

[Goldfish Jack]

I am not in the mood to talk about a brain drain, suffice to say that it was a pleasure to see some of those people join the brain drain - enough about that!! Yes we lost some great controllers, but we have some even better ones coming through the system (and let me tell you a few of the youngsters under training now are ':mad:' hot.

As to the US system, the only reason it survives and can move the amount of traffic is that it relies on VFR weather and puts most of the responsibility into the cockpit for separations!! That is why they manage to land aircraft on top of each other, amongst things. It is no doubt that the worst pilots in the world, iro ATC and procedures come from the states - ask any one in a civilised western country and I speak from experience - they have the same problems with them at EGKK as we do at the bottom of Africa!

The UK system is a very good system and, no, does not rely all the time on slots, but to a great degree, yes, it does. It relies on level headedness, common sense, initiative and pilots that respond to ATCs and vice versa, as well airline despatchers/ground handlers that understand a system and how to work in it - that is a major problem in Africa. The are all geared to move aircraft efficiently and safely and if you have that a system will work. It was very intersting to see it and how it comes together.

Go to the states and see how the system COLLAPSES in bad weather - then you have total shambles and complete chaos. You can tell me as much as you want about the US system but ti only works in VMC.

Right, seeing as I is still in the UK, let me get back to warm beer, food heated in the microwave and ice cold red wine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Orca hope the circuits went well and I am back on the 11th and we need to drink seriously................................................

[AfricanSkies]

Firstly, thank you to the ATC's in South Africa - you are great and it's an absolute relief to get handed back to 126.7 after being north of the border for extended periods of time! There's literally smiles all round in the cockpit! it's like, 'FINALLY ! Someone who knows what he/she are doing, who's actuallyexpecting us, and not only that but knows our 'registration and souls on board', even!!!'

I'm sure a list of 'pet' grievances would be appreciated by all, it would be by me, so that we could smoothen each other's lives more! Don't even leave out the silly ones.

[the wizard of auz]

Hey golfish jack, seth efrican and proud you may be, but I bet you don't love the springboks right now. :)

[126,7]

Just some quick comments about the "brain drain"

Certainly the SA ATCs are some of the best, otherwise you wouldn’t hear the jaapie accents all over the place from several centers in Europe to EVERY center in the UAE!
The youngsters coming through the ranks now have certainly profited from the brain drain as far as salaries are concerned.
On the flip side, they have lost out. ATNS cant offer enough time off, and they made sure the guys don’t leave so soon either by cuffing them to the radar screen with horrendous training bonds over a five year period.
Joburg is the center suffering the most under the brain drain. Then again, those are the main manne what counts ek sê!! They are also the hardest working and the best paid in SA. All overseas ATC poachers are only happy to take the applicants if they see JNB on the chaps licence. (no offense Goldfish)

Comair, SAA and charter operators each have a seat or two on the ATNS board and they would rather have their aircraft fly holds all over than pay the poor ATC a proper salary that would probably keep him in the country. So it must also be cheaper bringing 11 Danes into SA to help out and pay all their relocation costs etc etc. Strange that after only 2 months there were only 7 left. The exodus continues.

[Skaz]

if there is a shortage of controllers, why is atns being so stand-offish towards new applicants?

I have a friend who wants to become an atc, but is being mucked about by atns?

[Little One]

Warlock
Its only on JNB Area that they acknowledge every Tx with your call sign. Those are speial people that work there so we will let them do it cause they still doing an excelent job.

My pet hate for africanskies is when you should be expecting a radio call and we have to keep calling ie approaching the holding point and expecting a X-ing clearance Or lined up on the RWY the next thing you expect would surely be a Take off Clearance. I understand that it is best to be sure but surely you should be expecting us to call you and then listening out.

[Mr.Qte]

boyz and girlz,
use your common sence...........
if its busy on the freq........keep it short, but clear........you hear...but clear...
not busy, no bs but the call should be alowed to make at once......
we are all proffesionals!!!!!!! i hope....... so stop complaining and use your comon sence.........

keep it up......safe..........and fun.

qte :ok:

[gofor]

Brain Drain - more like supply and demand. A few years ago only select few with more than a good few years ATC experience could go to the Middle East from JNB. If You think only Jnb'rs got there recently - try again - some very shady characters got there. Speak to some Jnb'rs and they'll tell you some who left couldn't seperate the cheeks of their ass let alone have any experience to talk of or a Jnb ticket. ATNS management sucks I'm told - always out to offer their controllers some or other " sell your soul " type package. The UAE salaries have been pretty much fixed , SA salariies have averaged at 10%pa increased and the Rand strengthened over 30% in just over a year. Sure you pay tax in SA but any Seth african will agree that SA still has a good quality of life. A good few (very capable) ctlr'rs left in jnb still doing an excellent job - just cause some know your name doesn't make them shi**Hot is worth knowing too!
As for USA type controlling - they don't subscribe to ICAO as FAA rules there in a big way - so , yes you can land 4 following acft on the same rwy at the same time with reasonable assurance no-body will hit - hows that! Sometimes they get it wrong, but per US acft movement they would still have safe skies. Which lets them also have the top 10 bussiest (iro airport movements) airports in the world. Incidently some wiser person could do the sums iro traffic movements re JNB - for the amount of APP/RDR traffic moved in JNB per controller, Heathrow would move a 1/4 acft per controller if not less, pay high taxes, have reasonable quality of life (incl crap WX) and earn 55K sterling+. Over and Out

[CEP]

Hey Gofor

Are you still getting the stench from the septic tank other side 03L? Glad to see you are still as negative about the woppleheads as usual.:yuk:

[gofor]

CEP -Call youself a wopplehead if you like - seems you may be a 'company man' after all!!

Apologies to golfish jack who began this thread as we seem to have missed the topic a tad. The format of transmissions is typical of any international carrier who has to deal with Africa/middle east/asia/ far east/oceanic regions etc where the carrier often speaks to someone who only expects exact std r/t. So to get the ctlr ready with his pen paper etc , back at the desk or turn down the TV, the pilot normally would say "XXX....Request" or "XXX....position". Also the guy on the other end is often not native english and all you will get after a lengthy request is " ....eh? last call say again callsign". Even lengthier unnecissary RT results. So eg, a DLH would enter your space and give the "DLH573, position" etc a less prudent up and coming aviatior would think this is obviously the way to go and begins that trend in SA space. This type of RT is standard for may regions / carriers. Hope this may shed some light as It would frustrate me too.

Oh yess , CEP forgot to mention that your pension is coming up soon - gold watch an all. Stench is great, surfs up!!

[wheelchock]

-Request-

Request to close this thread........................

South African ATC, is the best with in the whole continent, one question though for for Goldfish Jack, why is it, you guys reapeat our callsign as confimation to our readback?? We are talking about clogging up the frq, right?


Chocks In, Brakes off

[Goldfish Jack]

Wheelchock

thanks for the comments - I agree with you that the comments have gone off the thopic. So maybe that is a good thing.

I am not sure why we do it, apart from the fact that ICAO require a acknowledgement of a clearance. But then if you keep quiet when it is correct that should also be good enough. Only correct the uncorrect (English grammar - was never my strong point at school!)

I am not sure why my colleagues do this - I agree with you that it wastes time. A lot of it is due to inexperience and also many of my colleagues think they work in a busy environment!!! Wait until they see how real ATC is done!!

One day...

Now let me get back to sleep and think of another topic to stir.

ps Did you know that we have employed an ex NATS controller to attend to some of our problems and see how we can impove our service and speed up things?... One point to come out so far is that runway occupancy at FAJS runs at 90secs per aircraft, whilst it is approx 55 at Gatwick and approx 50 at Heathrow. NOw if we can only speed that up, we will start to improve the service. SO you see it is not only ATCs that hold the boat up. Now get your fat :mad: off my runway :D :hmm: :ok: ;)

But thanks for the comments - have a good day

[CEP]

Greetings

A lot of it is due to inexperience and also many of my colleagues think they work in a busy environment!!!Wait until they see how real ATC is done!!

And you and your colleagues are going to work at JHB when????

[4HolerPoler]

There's not too many high-speed turn-offs at Joburg Goldjack. There's highspeeds all over the place at Heathrow & Gatwick. In fact the only 90 degree taxiways that I can remember at Heathrow are the ones at the end of 27R; you're normally off well before you get there. Gatwick has high-speeds on both runways and they only go 90 towards the end. In fact they're running a trial program using the Rapid Exit Taxiway Indicator Lighting System (RETILS). Nothing like that in Joburg. These issues, IMHO, explain why the runway occupancy times are greater in Joburg.

Closer to home, Cape Town, Runway 19 requires turns in excess of 90 degrees to clear. I'll bet you a case of Castle that runway occupancy averages are a lot less when using 01 than when 19 is is use.

Have you ever gone around a 90 degree doing 60 knots? You don't want to be there.

4HP

[V1 Rotate]

I think you'll find that density altitude has a little bit to do with it !

V1 Rotate:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Goldfish Jack]

Howzit 4Hp

Won't argue with you about the time on 19 vs 01 as I tend to agree with you, but having spent some time recently at Gatwick, I was amazed at how the attitude of the pilots varies there to over here in SA. Sorry to say it. I have recently also been involved in timing aircraft on the runways at CT and it is quite amazing. The best was 3mins and 48 secs from echo taxiway hold to line up and take off in a B737-800!!! and he said he was ready for an immediate!!

Aircraft can get off runway 01 quicker than 19 agree, but my word some of them can take their time getting going. The Cat 1 (visual ) holds at the thresholds do speed things up a bit, when it gets busy, but you know with certain of fleets you do not clear them for an immediate t/o, as they take too long on the runway. Ask me - I am getting too old to get bold!! Only this week I had a schedule flight call me ready and when I told him (twice PLEASE) to line up and be ready for an immediate due traffic on a 4 mile final, (it was a BE20)he stated it wont be possible to do that.

ACSA has got plans for a high speed turn off on runway 19 and it will be in by the end of December, but we do not know which year that will be yet (do they??)

It was very interesting in the pub the other night at a well known hotel, to discover that out of 3 captains, none of them knew that an "immediate take - off " means "enter the runway and commence your t/o roll in one continious move," (ICAO definition) without any stopping on the runway !!

4Hp, It is about time you bought that 4 hole machine to the Cape so we can drink those castles and have another bash.

Right after the depressing news about the bomb blasts in Turkey - (WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD TODAY???), I think I must go out and have a drink. On this sad note, and it really depresses me, my sympathies to all of those who lost loved ones in Turkey recently - hell it REALLY is depressing.