QF LCC to recruit externally..

[vasdeferens]

You heard it here first..

Qantas will be recruiting externally for their new low-cost operation,more specifically,DJ 737 rated and experienced pilots will be "encouraged" to apply.

And why not? Seems to me like a very smart ploy to attack "Skimpy's" obvious target...Virgin Blue.

It's no secret that all is not well in the DJ camp,and I have no doubt that most would jump ship given half a chance,and surely GD is aware of this.

This is not a wind,my source is VERY close to the pulse,and can be regarded as extremely reliable,however,i'll believe it when I see it.

What do you all think? And DJ drivers,what would it take to lure you over to the self appointed "SKYGODS"?

:p

[Metro Boy]

Not too much. Where do I sign?

[rammel]

I heard today that the Line Maintenance or possibly all Engineering is going to be outsourced whatever type of aircraft is decided on. I also heard that the only pre-flight check done by Engineering will be the first flight of the day. The new LCC might be going to be crewed by Mainline but it could be interesting times for alot of other staff.

Cheers Rammel

[Poto]

I think there are few S/O's getting around who would like a 73 F/O slot that would not like to see external recruitment of this LCC. This will put back upgrade dates back a long way.
The logical answer to who will crew it is Mainline but stranger things have happened in this industry since my humble beginnings:suspect:

[loungelizard]

Wiff Wiff, can I smell a little nervousness in amongst the mainline 73 lads. Capt's on mid 200's and F/O's low to middish 100's. MMMMM, will this last ???? Sadly. me dont think so. It's only a matter of time before the faggot bean counters begin to rape yet another part of the profession. As many posts before this have said, "What are we going to do about it". Well, I dont think working from 9 till 5 will help and yeeeekks, let's not mention STRIKE.!!!!!!!!!!

[TAY 611]

where is Jakethemuss when you need him most..

[Cactus Jack]

There seem to be three types of people in this world of pprune.

1. Those who work for QF Mainline and enjoy reasonable (but still substantially less than their US and EUR counterparts) pay and conditions. Though sometimes appearing divided in their opinions, they generally work hard to keep their lot, and expand it where possible. They believe that pilots have for the most part worked hard to get to their position, and that a decent wage for their skill and experience is deserved.

2. The silent majority. These people who work for other carriers than QF Mainline (such as regionals, airconnex, VB etc) and believe that they need to earn more for what they do, have advancement potential, and sound job benefits. These people generally keep their tongue, and if anything deserve respect for it.

3. Then there are the "others". These people work at undermining the QF mainline pilots at any cost. Ironically, they don't seem to care if it affects their own lot, as long as it casts doubt in the beancounters minds about what QF drivers earn. The self destructive behaviour of these people has to be seen to be believed.

The purpose of this post is to highlight the lack of logic behind comments like yours, Cruze. Whilst you have every right to have your opinion, IMHO you should be looking to raise your benefits, rather than bring down the benefits of your QF cousins. It will help us all in the long run.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Well said Cactus Jack.

Cruze, you are a short-sighted idiot.

[Pete Conrad]

Have to say, well said cactus jack. The rot set in years ago though.

[Kanga767]

It'd be nice to see those engineering spots advertised, especially if they go NG..

[onya]

Yeah good post Cruze you short sighted knob. It's the likes of you that are screwing this industry for everyone. Go away :mad:
Onya

[RoamingGPS]

Well young Vas
it is true. I also was in Qcc the other day seeing a friend
who told me that despite the weak asurances of our union Skimpy will employ Tech outside.

And yes, first up it will be type rated 737. He said although they are expecting backlash from us at mainline they figure now is the time to start the breakup of tech mainline in the wage structure.
Plus it is designed to have a two prong effect....ie the sceond being the taking of many DJ guys will slow things up for them significantly.

No word on the renumeration yet but he said whispers are 170 -180 for left seat, 120 - 130 for right seat. Enough to bring our left seat wages down but enough above DJ to bring them over.

Yes it easy to just say " no it will never happin to us" but do we really believe that.

I hope not. As you say a lot of our S/o and junior FOs will find upgrading come to a snails pace and that would be a shame for those guys.

Came close to the pulse as another here said and I do think it will happin.

[bitter balance]

Its interesting to go back and do a search around the time Australian Airlines was announced. Quite enlightening. We had the same 'certain' rumours about the crewing (AWOPs were the shoe ins at that stage). Everyone was bagging AIPA, Kaptin M et al were advocating industrial action by mainline pilots.

An exercise (in futility probably): Draw up a page with PPrune on the left and Reality on the right. Write down all dead set certain rumours on the left and what actually happened on the left. Work out a percentage of PPrune to Reality - this is otherwise known as the bull**** factor ;)

[vasdeferens]

I'm with you metro boy!

With numbers like those mentioned by GPS there will be nothing but the eerie sound of tumbleweed left behind in the DJ crew room.

:ok:

[Three Bars]

My two cents worth.

If the wages offered were enough to entice 737 drivers away from VB, then it would certainly be enough for mainline F/Os and S/Os to bid for upgrades in the new LCC. Plus, for the company, crewing with mainline pilots would offer them the advantage of being able to respray the planes and ask the boys to come to work in their mainline uniforms if the LCC didn't work out.

[R2000]

So what will be the average effect on industry standard remuneration?

Are the numbers suggested above a bad thing, because they will lower average domestic airline salary by reducing from QF rates, or

Are the numbers a good thing because it will raise the average domestic airline salary by being above the DJ rates?

I guess it depends on who wins, who hires the most pilots, and how big the delta is either way.

Either way I would love to be faced with this dilemna, but will have to get a job with an airline first...

That is enough brain space occupied for this Friday afternoon.

Regards,

...If one synchronised swimmer drowns, do the rest drown too?...

[ur2]

NOTE:
Type not yet advised.
Don't start counting your chickens yet.

[Australia2]

Well said Cactus,

Go away Cruz. You do not seem to be appreciated here, you pratt.

[MoFo]

Your source is very close to the pulse.
Who? Dikkos missus?
Give me a break.

[VB_Capt]

vasdeferens, it wouldn't take much to lure a lot of us away from VB. Not a happy place. Sold down the drain by the CP for his own greedy reasons, disorganized etc. The only thing going for it is the hosties who aren't a bad lot, and probly a lot better than the QF ones. Offer a bit more money and this place would implode.
If that happens, tricky dicky will probably find he can oiffer a lot more to keep flying. Bit like the ARL, they paid players sfa until superleague offered close to a million a year to some players, and then the ARL dug deep to pay the top players. What a bunch of cheating pricks.

[Wizofoz]

With numbers like those mentioned by GPS there will be nothing but the eerie sound of tumbleweed left behind in the DJ crew room.

Perhaps, but for every DJ pilot who jumps to Skimpy, there would be a Jet Connect pilot waiting in the wings to jump on board!

Perhaps market forces are starting to swing back the right way...

[ur2]

One can only hope Wiz, boy am I tired of working in the US.

[tobzalp]

I hear that skimpy is going to be a joint venture with flight centre eventually.

[halas]

WOT?

With Elvis as their spokesman? :E

l'd like to see that!

Come on home Hackers! You gotta job ;)

halas

[Airspeed Ambassador]

Plenty of “rumours” about possible wage levels for the QF LCC, but I can’t understand why any of you would think for a moment, that wages above those of the competition (read Virgin Blue) will be on offer. This is Qantas’s big chance to redefine its cost base for its domestic operation, for ever!

Our pilot market is so small, that Virgin and Qantas don’t have to submit to market forces when it comes to wage levels – they can just create the market! Virgin did it when they arrived, Qantas did it when they set up Jet Connect in NZ and now they are going to do the same in Oz!

Vasdeferens , sorry to hear you don’t like things at DJ. Your initial post seems full of wishful thinking with little regard for the reality of the market. Now that you have your 500hrs on the 737 I am sure “Skimpy” will welcome you with open arms (if they get 737’s). Unfortunately I fear that as far as the Oz/NZ pilot market is concerned, from here on in, the grass will be brown on both sides of the fence when we compare employers.
:(

[loungelizard]

Why dont we all go home and offer QF say 190K for 80 hrs/month instead of 55hr/month. That would be around 40 - 50K less than the current boys and girls. Then all the current mainline 73 drivers will be forced out of their box, have to go overseas to where the real big picture is and then be capable to offer their "version" of where the industry is headin. To bring back the respect and the pay that the industry deserves will require everybody and I mean everybody from C-172 charter, Turbo Prop and Jet operation to say enough is enough and it either stops or the whole country comes to a grinding holt Monday morning. Unfortunately though, I am only dreaming as not one QF member will have the guts or forsight to support the rest that are in the industry with them. They did not support their fellow brothers in 89,(and no lets not start that subject) nor during the 92 rape and pillage of the "real" Australian Airlines and nor will they now during yet another crises affecting each and every one of you.

WOOOFF, I can hear em sing and bite already.

[Gnadenburg]

The disenchanted Virgin Blue folk have to be kidding?

After undercutting former incumbants, life and pay not so glamourous so again the easy path? A small pay hike by jumping ship! That is of course if there is a pay hike at Skimpy.

Get off your proverbials, draw a line in the sand, start with company paid (where are those Boeing training credits going)professional endorsement training and then work on conditions.

The Dixon Flanking Manoeuvre?

Which line will the Bankstown Aces' run to? QF Cadetship or the LCC line. Where they can sign their first three years of savings away on paid endorsements?

AIPA must push experience of some sort. Protect themselves against paid endorsement training and the hoardes of hopefuls that will begin the end for mainline conditions.

If they can't crew it themselves, prerequisite jet experience levels and the market may preserve conditions to a degree-maybe!

Still can't believe the disenchanted VB folk!



:yuk:

[Dehavillanddriver]

Gnad,

VB paid for NG differences training.

In both the case of QF and VB, the PILOT pays for the endorsement.

In QF, the pilot pays nothing upfront, but instead takes reduced wages for at least 2 years and carries a bond.

In VB the pilot stumps the cash up front and wears the risk, BUT is paid full rate pay from day 1 with the company and carries NO bond.

There will be arguements about the differential between the eventual salaries of QF and VB pilots, but that differential will remain regardless of how the endorsement is paid for.

At the end of the day, if someone wants to take an unemotional look at the costs for pilots, you will find that the amount in the pocket at the end of the day is about the same. The difference is that the risk is borne by the company in the QF case and by the pilot in the VB case.

The upside (if there is one) is that there are very many well motivated pilots joining Virgin, whee people have a ****load of their own cash on the line they tend to put in a little bit extra effort.

Yes people will leap up and down, but do the sums and prove me wrong...

[Hostie Humper]

Three Bars,

I was under the impression mainline pilots are all for NOT accepting any pilot positions for less money than they are on now. The whole bit about lowering pilots pay and conditions in Australia etc. and telling wannabees not to accept/take jobs at DJ etc

And now your saying, yep - mainline drivers will do it for that to get a promotion!

Now hang on here, what exactly is the position of mainline pilots when it comes to Skimpy offering lower pay and conditions?

Surely after all the bagging that has been dished out on DJ, Impulse, Nat Jet etc over the years by the high and mighty, surely mainline pilots would not even consider a drop in pay and conditions? Even if it meant a promotion?

[bitter balance]

Dehavillanddriver, that is some heavy duty rationalisation there. There is an enormous difference between shelling out $20K plus and being on a training wage.

[Three Bars]

HH,

The point is that a defacto payrise comes about for the more junior mainline F/Os and S/Os who might bid into the Skimpy Captain and F/O jobs. This is the process used in Australian Airlines where more junior pilots are taking lower paid positions (relative to mainline rates), but are earning more than they otherwise would have in their more junior positions.

Do mainline pilots like this approach? No - but if it means that recruitment stays within mainline, then most (I think) are prepared to accept it. It is the idea of pilot's coming in off the street after having paid for their own endorsment and then working for peanuts to fly rebadged mainline aircraft that would offend most (if not all) mainline pilots.

[Willie Nelson]

I have not gone through an interview for DJ at this stage and I have always been of the view that QF is the ducks nuts, but I am still waiting in the wings for that interview also.

From the point of view of a G/A pilot, I cannot put money out of the picture (I do not have A$25k) but I am not in a position to turn down any of DJ/QF mainline or QF LCC.

If DJ pilots all jump the fence to a pay increase at QF LCC then maybe I don't have to go begging three guys who probably don't remember me anyway for a job (If I could find three, or even 1) Good luck to those that get in that way, but it's not going to happen that way for a lot of us blokes out here which leaves me with one egg in one very big basket (QF mainline)

The long and the short of it is (presumably) that this recommendation system at DJ would be dropped, or at least no longer be the sole source of entry and suddenly I have an egg in another big (but perhaps/perhaps not) dwindling basket.

BTW, I am also surprised (from an outsiders POV) that their are many unhappy campers at the DJ camp, would I be right in guessing that those guys are previous jet drivers because from my POV it looks like its all beer and skittles up there, albeit not the best payer. I would be dissapointed to hear that there are operational problems as it appears to be a tightly run ship JMO.

Willie

[Gnadenburg]

Willie

Put a new set of tyres on that GA Bomb (pilot car) if you get into Virgin Blue. May need to hang onto it for 3 to 4 years to pay off the endorsement.

Devil

Lay the figures out. Transparent accounting and not dubious pilot financial nous-or lack there of.

25K? Hard cash! No tax deduction, so you have to make 40k to pay for it or half your first years wage. Realistically, three years savings as a VB F/O.

Aren't QF S/O's on six figures very quickly? Or my sideways sitting, map folding mates exaggerating?

[balance]

DeDriver. Must agree with Gnad there mate, I think your accounting might be just a little creative. You could get a job in an Airline Accounts department with that sort of thinking. Always more bean counters needed!

Back to the thread though, gotta wonder why VB pilots are so willing to jump ship. Whats the go over there? Whats really going on? Why such an unhappy place?

And spare me the lunatic fringe please. VB Capt, your posts are rational. Whats happenning with you guys?

[Dehavillanddriver]

ok guys...particularly Gnad and Balance...paying for your endorsement 101..

vbpilot pays $21500 for endorsement......we will use gnads gross figure of $40000 - however it is probable somewhat less than that...given that the gross tax rate is around 38%

qf pilot pays nothing UP FRONT

SO - lets look at the figures.

vb pilot (level 2 fo) gets paid $82527 per annum - this is 60% of the Captains salary PLUS 60% of the $15000 annual retention payment.

Qf PUIT gets paid $35024 per annum, 1st year S/O gets $58936 and second year gets $67540 (which incorporates the 2 rates for 1st 6 months and 2nd six months) - salaries calculated as best I can from wagenet figures - so stand to be corrected...

so lets look at what the gross pay for the VB pilot is after 2 years.
in order to make it fair the VB pilot has 1 months salary deducted from this calculation to cover the month that he/she did the endorsement

so 23 months = $ 82527 / 12 x 23 = $158176.8

from this deduct $40000 for the endorsement - remember these are all gross figures and I have used Gnads 40 grand. = $118176

the QF pilot gets paid PUIT salary for say 4 months

= 35024/12 x 4 = $11675

Year 1 salary for 12 months = $58936 +
Year 2 (1st 6 months salary) - $31529 +
Year 2 (2nd 6 months for 2 months) = 36011/6x2 = $12003

so after 2 years from joining the QF pilot has grossed...

$11675 +
$58936 +
$31529 +
$12003

Which comes to...

$114143 by my sums....versus the $118176 paid to the VB pilot.

Which after 2 years puts the pilot who paid nothing for his/her endorsement behind the VB pilot by about 4 grand (gross).

PLUS the QF pilot has a bond and the VB pilot is free to wander the world looking for a better paying job.....

Now WHO is paying for their endorsement?????

by the way NO allowances were used in any of these calculations, except for the retention bonus which is a component of annual salary anyway - just a deferred payment....

I make this point because so many people leap up and down and shout about paying for endorsements without looking a little more closely at the facts. If VB had PUIT and reduced salaries for a couple of years - the leaping would be justified, but the reality is that the outcome is pretty much the same.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Maybe some of the rumours are a pointer. Like management heavies attempting to coerce pilots to break the law in order to get aeroplanes away on time?

One I heard..and yes, it is a rumour, concerns an aircraft preparing to leave ADL for PER. The FA's find a number of lifejackets missing and the Capt decides that the aeroplane is not going until the correct amount of lifejackets is on board.

Management arrive and after telling the Captain that what the pax don't know won't hurt them, then threatens the Captain with the sack if he doesn't go.

Captain stands his ground and is summarily sacked, right up until the management guy is informed that getting another Captain to the plane will take as long as getting the required number of lifejackets.

Management guy backpedals, blah blah blah and the flight departs late, but lawfully.

As I said, it is a rumour going round QF, but one that is setting off alarm bells. That, plus the Pacific Blue debacle, broken promises on wages and international flying and the hypocrisy of VB management, well, I for one aren't too surprised that many VB staff are starting to look for greener pastures.

[Dehavillanddriver]

Borg,

I have not heard that one, but I suspect that it is an amalgam of a number of different rumours.

All the bad bits of a couple of different rumours, joined together to make a "super rumour"

I liked the rumours, spread as fact, during the dying days of Ansett, which had Vb aircraft grounded at different ports due to ...

repossesion by lessors
no fuel
leins by AsA
etc

I had a number of people ring me quite concerned because they were told that these things were fact, when they were actually wishful thinking by An management

the reality was (and is) somewhat different

[Johhny Utah]

Dehavillanddriver

Sorry mate, but your numbers are way off the mark. I must admit that they do support your argument quite well, but you what they say about lies & statistics...:rolleyes:

Qantas puits start on a training wage from the very first day they turn up for staff orientation. The puit figure that you included was in fact correct. However, that rate of pay only lasts while the puit does their groundschool training & sim sessions, and stops from the moment that they get back to QCC with the piece of paper showing that they have just completed their first trip. (total time on Puit wage ~ 10 weeks, not 4 months)

During the first 12 months since being checked to line, most guys will do an 8 week roster of flying, then an 8 week 'blank line' roster of being on standby (minimal flying to keep current), then an 8 week roster of flying & so on. At the end of the first years flying (of which approximately 16 weeks were spent on 'blank lines') the net income would be app $75k. Allowances are about another $11k per year - whether or not you include them as income is up to you.

After 12 months of checking out, pay rises by ~5%. This is followed by another pay rise at the 18 month since checkout date, at which pay rises by a further 25%. Throw in annual pay increases as per the EBA, and the guy is earning more than 30% more per hour than they were at the same time the previous year. Couple this with the fact that by this stage they are almost certainly pattern line holders, and no longer do 'blank lines' and factor in the extra trips, plus overtime, plus extra allowances (or not, as the case may be) and they are most likely earning greater than $100k.

As for the DJ guys - as I understand it, there are minimal pay increases over time. (I've used about 6% below) So if they were on $82k from day one, then the numbers look more like this:

QF Puit:
Year 1 $74k
Year 2 $100k
Year 3 $110k (NB: fairly conservative est. for Yrs 2 &3)
Total $284k

DJ Pilot:
Year 1 $82k
Year 2 $87k
Year 3 $92k (NB: Please correct figures if wrong...)
Total $261k

However, this is before we have factored in any loans or expenditures for training. As you can see, the QF puit is ahead, not substantially at this point, but by a significant amount once any loan repayments for the intial endorsement are factored in to the DJ pilots pay.

Hopefully this has gone some way towards clearing up the muddied waters...:ok:

[Karunch]

DeHavilland Driver, so you've counted to the third year, continue the maths for another 25 years and see where you stand. The former Qf pilot is on the golf course daily, while the 62 year old Dj pilot is still battling management over the number of life jackets required. Other than operating in the same airspace, there really is no comparison between the two positions.

The difference- Dj is a job or stepping stone to a job, while Qf is a career (and no, I do not work for them). Cheers,

[Cactus Jack]

Dehavilland, 'nuf haggling over money. I'm pretty sure thats not why you are at VB and only partially the reason why I'm at QF. What I'd like to know, is the answer to the question that balance asked earlier.

That is: "What is going on at VB to make you guys so unhappy?"

If it's not moolah as you suggest, then something must be happenning. What is it?

[Metro Boy]

Cactus Jack, it's everything! Let me work for someone I can respect.

[Ultra]

MB,

I hope you're not looking at a QF LCC in search of respect or a respectable employer. Salary isn't the only casualty of the new LCC era. Think hard about the move....would it eventually lead to a mainline position downstream? - I seriously doubt it.

You'd have more chances at QF mainline directly from VB. (Just ask the QF regional drivers... ):p

[Sheep Guts]

Anybody heard when theyll be advertising. Is there a Careers section on their webpage?



Sheep

[VB_Capt]

metro, on the button. Most here jumped at the chance to work for Branson citing his high profile, charisma etc.. But...charisma doesn't pay the bills and when thesde same poiople realised that they're gettinjg screwed, the gloss wears off the shiny new NG pretty fast.
And then When they then realise that theyare getting screwed even harder by one who was at the top of the AFAP back in 89, they really are pi$$ed off. He traded pilot salaries for shares and now is super wealthy by any standards That sort of money didn't come from his reputed $400K+ salary but shares he sold us down the drain to get.
Never be surprised by human nature, specially where money is involved.

[Poto]

At the risk of getting back to the original topic, salary accountants aside does anyone actually know who's gunna crew this venture?:confused:
I guess its as up in the air as the type decision,
Just have to chill I guess:{

[neville_nobody]

I guess it would be fair to say that Virgin is just GA in a 737????

Wouldn't mind hearing DJ_737's thoughts on all this.

[OBNO]

If they do recruit externally, would they/should they use the current Qantas recruiting process to determine suitability to fly one of their shiny new jets?

[Leftseat 1]

Pilots successful to the TESNA recruitment drive will soon be contacted to assess availibility for the new Qantas A320 LCC.
The source is impeccable.

[Capt Fathom]

The source is impeccable
Aren't they always...!

[Chilli Muscle]

Straight from Solomon Lew ?:}

[Mud Skipper]

So if mainline pilots are not going to crew the LCC where do they want us to park the current 737's?

We have been very flexable with Link Impulse and JetConnect taking part of our flying but we must be approaching the line in the sand.

It will be an interesting AIPA AGM this comming Monday.

[Arctaurus]

LS 1

Where do you dream this stuff up from.

Whatever your'e taking, I want some !:)

[OBNO]

MS

I think if the LCC recruits externally, the "line in the sand' will have been crossed given that their projected aircraft fleet in two years will represent close to half the current QF 737 domestic fleet

[EPIRB]

And I think you'll find that there will be no Tesna pilots available any more. Leftseat One, are you trying to wind people up? Just that you don't seem to have made too many posts.

[CallButton]

Just to add to the wages debate...

Has the QF calculater taken into account that by the 3rd year the VB FO has been a captain for 18 months? That ought to throw a spanner in the works...:=

I, also, would like to know specifically what the gripes at VB are. It can't be the money. Most of the pilots with commands there were FOs from that 'other' airline or have come from GA. After 8 years at AN I wasn't earning what the VB captains are, let alone after 1-2 years...

The figures (and we all play with them!) quoted for a captain at the QF LCC are laughable. :{ The AO captains are only on $170k and that includes performance bonuses. So a 737 driver will be offered 170-180K??:confused:

BTW my money is also on A320/321s...:suspect:

[Gnadenburg]

CallButton

Spanner right back atcha!

How does a VB Capt salary compare to a QF 747 Captain? It doesn't.

So to keep the comparison on level terms, let's compare VB F/O wage to QF 737 F/O wage only. And VB 737 Capt wage to QF 737 Capt.

Making oranges, oranges and apples, apples.

Your one year VB command and aberration as I would suggest loyal VB employees about to be rewarded with the following- Pacific Blue doing a majority of the expansion and any hopes of real International flying dashed by Virgin Atlantic ambitions.

VB gripes can't be the money???? Most Captains from that other airline??? Please elaborate!

[loungelizard]

Mud Skipper

Well unfortunately ol'mate, that's what they are going to ask you soon on where you want to park your career. The "line in the sand" was actually drawn in front of you back in 92 during the rape and pillage of the "real" Australian Airlines.

Dont expect anything to come out of any AIPA meeting because they dont give a rats about you or any other domestic driver. Through and through a 400 club. They did not support their brothers during 89, in fact they actually scabbed due to surprisingly increasing the amount of domestic sectors at the beginning and end of international flights and in fact Mud, and no doubt you still remember, they totally disregarded and destroyed the careers of their now domestic drivers during the rape of 92. In the eyes of your beloved "union", all the domestic brothers are nothing but illegitimate children that they were "forced" to adopt way back in 92. So Mud, dont think for a minute that these parasites are going to support you in times of LCC's firing up and helping with maintaining your career prospects particularly a "union" and I use the term extremely loosely. that gets a hand out each year from the company.!!!!! Have you ever Mud, heard of a "union" that normally should have the best interests of their members at heart, takes a ****e load of money from ya (but that's so you can get such cheap Income Protection Insurance) and then also slips some into the ol hip pocket from the management. True Mud, very very true.
One must remember, He who holds the gold makes the rules.
I feel so sorry for you domestic drivers who achieve the highest profits and now are about to be shet on from a great height because of faggot bean counters that have slimed their way into what was once a majestic industry.

Yes, the line truely is drawn in the sand Mud.

Lizard

[MoFo]

From what I am told both AIPA and the Impulse group have put "submissions" to Alan Joyce and the Qantas suits as to why they should be the chosen ones to operate it.

Apart from that if anyone tells you they have "inside " information take it with a grain of salt.

[EPIRB]

Loungie, where did you hear about AIPA getting a handout from the company? News to me.

[cunninglinguist]

Don't worry Mud, Link( NJS ) have been very flexible with you " taking " their flying also, or did you use to fly PH-KA, PH-KG, PH-BRM ??

[SHRAGS]

Lounge lizard,
What a load of crap. Where do you get your info from, certainly not from anyone with any remote connection with AIPA. From 400 Captains down the pilot group is united on this one. Mainline will crew the LCC....!! The line has been drawn, and if it needs to happen, it will be crossed led by AIPA and followed by 2200 very PISSED OFF pilots.

What is your agenda?? You have the ramblings of someone so bitter and twisted you must have trouble walking straight.

By the way, what 'rape' of 92? The one where AA kept the jobs they had, the flying hours they had, excellent pay, F/O's now all have commands 3-4 years faster than the average longhauler and, if they wish, a line into longhaul. Rape............ Yeh right!!!

Get a life
:mad:

[Thunderbox]

So many wannabes (scabs)...so few jets.

[loungelizard]

SHRAGS,

Jeeez, those last comments are a little unchristian of ya.

Yes it was a rape, you were probably still in nappies at the time.
Their careers were totally destroyed by AIPA's neglect and they only have their commands due to the Ansett collapse otherwise they would still be in the R/H seat 10 - 11 years down the track. And to have a chance to go to long haul, **** what an exciting prospect. That would be like waiting for an enormous bowel movement.!!!!! Well SHRAGS, certainly a hard and bitter one to swallow eh, but I'm sure your ol' jaw bones are certainly use to that. And as for mainline operating LCC's, HHHAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAA. Thanks for a bloody good laugh. And what are all 2200 going to do when no mainline operate the LCC, all go on STRIKE for your DOMESTIC children. Yeah right. Due to your deep QF indoctrination and conditioning, the blinkers, garage door, curtains and scales will probably never be ripped off the ol' eyes. And the final one of 2200 little red soldiers being branded together. Well, SHRAGS, AIPA had to do something for the boys and girls some time ago because they got a strong wiff that the 73/76 and classic drivers were so pissed off with the 400 club, they were all about to resign and get more appropriate representation. Strongly suggest you do some homework SHRAGS, there are some very ugly skeletons dingle dangling around in the ol' AIPA closet.

EPIRB,

Yes mate, this payment in the ol' hip pocket has been going on for many years now. The clowns obviously will strenuously deny such involvement, but I can assure you it is going on. And I mean bigtime. Dont expect any answers though when you start asking questions, you will only notice a lot of eye rolling, nervous fidgeting and then a fowl smell of bowel.

Your fellow brother for the cause,

Lizard

[Big Jan]

Thunderbox, what exactly do you mean?
I didn't realise anybody was on strike !!!
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

The Rape of '92?

Emotive language there LL.

Of course there is the counterview that the events of '92 are the longterm reason that QF shorthaul pilots didn't follow (or preceed!) their AN counterparts down the fiscal gurgler! But lets not let facts get in the way of a good whinge.

Your other point, reiterated by others on this forum, that AIPA did not support the AFAP during '89 begs a few questions.

With it not being AIPA's dispute, and a ban on secondary boycott's being in place, just what support did they expect? I have posed that question a few times on this forum and never recieved a reply.

Did you expect QF pilots to resign en-masse in support of a dispute that they were not involved in? I don't recall any request to do so at the time, with AFAP being so confident of its tactics.

I was flying 767's around at the time and know the level of domestic passengers we were carrying.... F..ALL!

So tell me, what support was realistically expected and not delivered?

As far as the topic is concerned, the issue of the LCC is one that is deeply troubling to the rank and file of AIPA. They are making their concerns known to the COM.

If this issue is not enough to force action from AIPA, nothing will.

Putatively, it does not affect people such as myself. However the thin end of the wedge is truly recognised. If the career path of every AIPA member below the rank of 767 Captain is to be maintained, anything less than flying the LCC aircraft at current 737 rates would be a disaster for AIPA.

The precedent would be set and the way shown for transferring aircraft such as the A330 to the LCC ... and who knows what else?

The line in the sand has been drawn.

..and another thing...

Can you explain how a pilot who was knocked back from Qantas in '87 achieved a 737 command in Qantas two years before longhaul pilots who joined in that year?

This pilot is now an A330 Captain, gaining access to that aircraft before any LH pilots did.

So who is being raped here?

[E.P.]

Cutie, get with the program.

There is a Guy who will be a QF 330 Capt. shortly (737-8 Capt now) who was a 'storeman and packer' in 1990!! He is not alone by far however, he is a good guy.

I am SICK of hearing this one sided B.S. that AN pilots were the 'only ones' and I am not one.........but then who cares.

"Kill Bill" kicks ass. :cool:

[VB_Capt]

CoB,
I don't know what/if any support was offered by QF mainline back n 89, but the presedent of the AFAP told all athe rallies thaqt QF WOULD NOT FLY OVER DOMESTIC ROUTES. Wel;, let me tell you that they did, along with CX, SQ, ANZ and any other carrier who cared to have a go. But the president o f the AFAP swore blind that they weren't and wouldn't. Well what BS that was. More BS that was. No wonder that prick has stayed out of Austr alia for so long. He'd have been castrated some years ago if he'd had the balls to show up after his lies.
He's good company for the CP at VB who sold pilots out for shares the greedy bastard, but then he probably sold us all out back in 89 anyway.
BigJan they trot that one out when they like. Noone was on strike, therefore no scabs but it's the nastiest thing they can say in their silly name calling so they have to justify it. I wouldl willingly have scabbed back then if I knew that my future would involve this 5hithole.
And one more thing CoB, it's too late for AIPA action; the horse has bolted and you guys aqre going to get screwed. I hoped it would never haqppen because our only hope here was for you guys to retain good conditions, but it's all over now.

[amos2]

You really do need help mate!!!

[loungelizard]

VB Capt

Your words a just pure poetry. These QF boys sound like their getting a nervous twitch eh!!!

[Chris Higgins]

VB Cap and all....

It's not all over yet! There's no reason to suggest that mainline pilots will not work for an LCC. Southwest Airlines is one of the most competitively paying jobs in North America. The pay structure is slightly different than most, and is based on productivity and efficiencies, but the bottom line is the crew do have a life and they enjoy their jobs.

I have known a bunch of QF guys over the years who are looking for a break from long haul. I don't see any reason why the two groups, union and management can't figure it out.

As for me VB Captn. I'm typed on the 737 and still working as a captain on a biz jet for Netjets. I was supposed to go back to the airlines years ago, but I love this job way too much. The pay isn't that great but the treatment is fantastic. Barbados and Antigua are really cool, anytime of the year. I sure hope you find happiness Dude. I hate to see people that unhappy.

[ur2]

Just heard,
LCC will be offering SHORT term contracts to A320 endorsed crew.
Yet to be confirmed.

[elektra]

I think this is about the time that AIPA need to get very realistic if its not already too late. QF management, under the guiseof a "new" operation have effectively just set in motion the transfer of all domestic ops up to 200 seats to contract pilots. Medium haul ops (Australian Airlines) are already ripe for such a move and actually half way there.

And it would be extremely surprising if the A380 weren't to go to contract pilots, chosen from the ranks of rated 320 and 330 drivers. By the time the 380 comes there'll be hundreds of Airbus qualified pilots working in Qantas owned aircraft but not all "mainline" by a long way. What then will be the stopping power of AIPA if thecompany announces that a new long haul division will crew the 380 based on contracts? Remember that a fair number of the Airbus pilots at that time will have had no long term links (if any) to AIPA and many have already shown a willingness to either cross picket lines (the ex '89 mob) or offer themselves for service at below mainline rates. AIPA had a chance to insist on single line seniority and recruitment with Impulse Qantas Link etc but refused for a lot of reasons, smugness perhaps not the least. There was never, ever a reason why all pilots flying aircraft with the rat on the tail shouldn't have been equal in terms of opportunity that is. But that time has passed.

And now the storm clouds are practically overhead. Well its time to prepare the last ditch defences. Maybe AIPA COM could start distributing copies of "Zulu"...I recall that as an instructive piece of how to act when all seems lost. But it rested on good leadership and 100% solidarity.

Good luck.

[bitter balance]

Elektra, I'm no expert in AIPA but I thought that integration was shot down at the regional level, not by AIPA.

[Chris Higgins]

Well....controversial I know, but external recruitment to highly experienced Airbus pilots may not be such a bad idea, if their backgrounds are alright. I would question a bunch of junior officers taking quick upgrades, or a fleet of aircraft being crewed by pilots with zero time on type.

I know everyone likes to pick on the Impulse guys, but in terms of cockpit technologies it's probably the closest to the Airbus.

What really needs to be done is an enormous solidarity drive with the Qantas Link and Impulse pilots to bring everyone on-board with a common goal.

We really have to get over ourselves. Have a few beers and iron things out now, this is Australia's only hope from escaping the pilot's own hall of doom that started with the botched mass-resignation in 1989. Sir Peter Abeles and Bob Hawke screwed things up, but we only have ourselves to blame for this present predicament.

It's time for all pilots to unite everywhere and agree on common treatment and work at achieving it everyday for the rest of our careers.

I have a farm near Port Macquarie, I've got to go back there in April, and one day I wouldn't mind returning to live in Australia full-time. A lot of people criticize the Yanks, but they do really get behind an idea and run with it, yes that includes some bad ones...but it's better than falling into the apathy that has swung through Australian labour.

As a former union air safety representative for an airline I worked for based in JFK International, I can tell you that unions are bloody hard work, for very little thanks and lots of criticism.

They are a very necessary evil!

I urge you one and all, join the "Dark Side"!

[vigi-one]

Bitter Balance, someone sold you a furfy on link intergration. Pulse pilots said no due to their relative lack of overall seniorority.

Also is it true that Pulse FO's flying ICUS to get command time up to company minimum.

[Zed]

How to you think QF CADETS get upgrades??

[mppgf]

Vigi-one
Bitter Balance is correct.The Eastern australia pilots came up with some hare brained scheme to integrate their seniority with Impulse pilots allowing them some sort of progression onto a jet.
The Impulse guy's didn't want to have anything to do with it as it would disadvantage them in the future and only Eastern guy's would gain.It had nothing to do with AIPA.
I would have tried the same thing if I had been in the Eastern's guy's shoes.
As far as crewing the LCC goes, those of you still bleating about mainline crewing it, WAKE UP !!
It will either be crewed by Impulse or a greenfields company which I am sure will recruit their own crew.
Hopefully if it is a greenfields company they will not discriminate against current Qantas group pilots ie Easterns,Impulse and Sunstate pilots but I doubt it.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Just to help the picture along a little with the UK experience of LCC's

Ryanair skipper's pull in 200,000 plus Oz dollars - I've worked for them and preferred to have a life.

I worked for go and my last full tax year showed an income of 174,000 dollars and I flew 750 hours. When the company was sold the bonus was more than 140,000 dollars cash. Cost of living differences between the UK and OZ are not the point of my post - believe me, as with Southwest, we weren't and aren't suffering compared to colleagues in the 'traditional' companies.

Perhaps the real point is that it doesn't matter if a start up is low cost or premium - there are so many pilots in, or wanting to return to, Australia that managers can just wait and allow you to cut each other off at the legs.

The profitable low cost carriers in Western Europe have not got cheap labour on the flightdeck - many of them are from your neck of the woods. They may well chip in to tell you how hard they work but I don't think they'll claim to get less than other aviators.

Regards
rob

[ESSI02]

... and finally truth becomes the casualty of the LCC crewing debate.

mppgf, bitter balance, d mcd, thumpa, james4th and any other ill-informed member of the IPG or its collaborators, please read on if you don't object to a little enlightenment...

How many of you actually sighted the proposal/discussion paper provided to the IP Council last year from the joint turbo-prop integration committee? - I don't expect a considered response, it's a rhetorical question.

Clauses like: ......" protection in all matters of seniority (inc. rostering, leave allocation, etc) for all currently-employed and temporarily redundant Impulse pilots, ahead of the turbo-prop pilot group, in perpetuity "...., come to mind.

In a nutshell, the IPG were never under any threat of predatory action by the remaining turbo-prop pilot group - it was my "hare(sic)-brained" and obvious attempt to restore some hope and unity to the ever-sickening state of our pilot community.
Sure, there was little on offer by way of promotional opportunity, but at the same time, nothing was being taken away from you. Instead, it would have provided the start of closer co-operation in our common goals.
Funnily enough, had the integration gone ahead, perhaps the current 'backs against the wall" scenario could have been avoided. I refer to the earlier IPG claims of "there's nothing else we could do" and "no-one would support us".
Make no mistake, the isolation that the IPG may now be feeling is of their own making.

mppgf,

As one of the architects of the Integration document, perhaps I'm entitled to feel just a little put out by your unfounded claims.

Regardless, the great paradox for me personally is that 12 years ago, after returning from an overseas job in the aftermath of that eventful year, I seriously considered a name change to insulate my 6y.o. from the sins of his father during his future pursuit of an aviation career. Now at the conclusion of his school life and after unfathomable changes in the industry, I counsel him to consider his other options.

For certain, the new generation of promising Australian aviators faces a bleak future of growing disparity and indignity within the workforce..

In offering services at the rumoured discount rate, I can only assume that the IPG has succombed to insurmountable fear and trepidation, collective insecurity and perhaps pressure from the younger members to expose the hand so early in your negotiations on this issue.
For certain though, this action provides no guarantee of a favourable outcome for you or you peers .... (no need to repeat the long list of other sentiments).

I hope that good sense will return to the heads of the incumbents soon and we can strive towards the only thing that will turnaround the current state - that is the insistence on greater unity within the aviation fellowship - it's the only path to recovery and defence to an eroding professional landscape.

Sure - I'm painfully aware of the perceptions of naivete I left behind in the ashes of integration last year, but equally, I'm comfortable with the fact that while I failed in my attempts at bringing unity to the QF regional group, I maintained integrity in my beliefs and hopefully led, in a very small way, by an example for others to follow.

To the topic of closer links with AIPA - it's an essential step, but a difficult marriage all the same. Perhaps, had there been greater visionaries among the QF pilot group on the whole (self, included in the criticism), we would now not be facing the greatest challenge ever to face us.

[proplever]

What goes 'round, comes 'round. Remember it, IPG.

[Pete Conrad]

At last the truth comes out about a mob that are there but by the grace of god. But we already knew it anyway. This industry has no place for a bunch of prostitutes that are willing to sell their soul to the detriment of the rest. It's time QF woke up and looked at the talent that was Airbus qualified and willing to work and know their own self worth.

[cunninglinguist]

Assuming that Impulse does crew the LCC, who's going to crew the 717s ? and how are the mainline 73s going to be kept busy with 20 odd A320s taking their passengers ?

Surely they don't believe that they are going to take that many pax off VB or generate that much more business , so as not to effect current mainline routes.

[flyingins]

Rumour seems to have it that "This industry" is about to find yet another place for the aforementioned "bunch of prostitutes". So bang goes that theory.

Airlines are businesses. Their purpose is to make money and to do so in the 21st century costs have to be reeled in. Whether we like it or not, conditions for pilots (and flight attendants, and engineers and lawyers and every other profession on the planet) will continue to go downhill.

You can't stop it, I can't stop it, mainline pilots can't stop it and believe you me, Impulse pilots can't stop it. I think the mistake being made on this thread and others like it is that Impulse is the thin end of the wedge. Wrong. The wedge was driven in years ago (Airlink/ AO/ JetConnect etc) and it still has a long way to go.

Slam Impulse pilots to your heart's content (do you need an invitation? :hmm: ) but at the end of the day the rank and file are just doing their jobs and trying to make a living. Would you turn down the offer to fly an A320 just so some bloke you never met can get his 737 command in 5 years instead of 10? I doubt it.

Welcome to the real world, people. Not always fair, is it?

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

I ask: What are the 'incumbent' pilots (ie those with jobs in mainline etc) going to do to assist the pilots looking for a career progression (and are, or may be, willing to work at a payscale better than they currently 'enjoy', but worse than what should be paid) to help find better options than working for a lower payscale , rather than preaching 'just say no'?

[propaganda]

UR2:

Interesting about short term contracts on the table: What's the time frame to start of OPS::D

[LightItUp]

Essio2...

You seem to have forgotten the real reason why none of the Impulse pilots were interested in the proposal that you guys put forward. Let me jog your memory.
Firstly you are correct that the proposal protected the impulse seniorty, but only to a certain point. The clause that you guys cleverly tried to slip in was based around whether Impulse got a new type of Aircraft e.g B717-300 if they ever made it. In that event the Eastern seniority would apply first to who would crew the new type.
So if the IPC did accept your proposal it would be Eastern crews that would have first pick at the new Aircraft for the LCC.
I for one am thankful to the IPC for not going a head with that proposal. Must admit though that it was cleverly hidden in the document and give full credit to who ever came up with it.

Pete...

Have no idea why you seem to harbour so much hate towards the Impulse crew or their operation but hopefully one day you could let go of it and get on with your life. All the best.

[Keg]

Col, any time the IPG want to chat to AIPA, I'm sure they would be all ears. That offer has been on the table previously from what my sources suggest. In fact, back as far as just after the announcement that QF had bought Impulse by the now QF CP.

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

Keg, i am not necessarily referring to the IPG. Those guys already have a job flying airliners.

I am just asking the question.

There are plenty of pilots who aren't currently 'prostituting' themselves (not my quote-not necessarily my opinion) at Impulse, are outside and looking in, who would jump at the chance to progress onto an A320/B737 at their own expense/increased debt level.

There is a hungry horde out there that none of us are considering or helping, because, for example, 'that's GA", and the reality is they are waiting in the wings (excuse the pun) to sign up as soon as the opportunity exists, and there won't be a damn thing anyone will do about protecting themselves.

It'll be every man for himself - cause the collective doesn't really care, and doesn't really exist.:{

Hence, we are having these discussions.

I don't condone working for less than squillions of dollars. But one mans pittance is another mans fortune.

At the end of the day, and it may seem defeatist, you will never be able to control the pilot market whilst there is a surplus of pilots, however qualified/unqualified, talented/untalented.

Unless of course we resorted to Painter and Docker type tactics, but that's not going to happen, is it.

[Gnadenburg]

AIPA is up against the wall.

The first stand it must take is to insist a training programme for Impulse/LCC pilots similar to the A330 induction. Full Airbus conversion etc.

No short cuts and no cheap and nasty Virgin Blue start up training deficiencies- 20 day US of A 737 courses etc.

If candidates have to pay for proper Airbus training out of Toulose, perhaps the expensive endorsement and poor pay will "relax" the pilot market. Or pressure the recrutiment of experienced pilots-another previously ignored market force!

A Virgin Blue style and start up training neglect should be avoided at all costs by AIPA.

CASA was irresponsible to allow inexperienced jet pilots "buy" poor training packages in the case of the VB startup. But LCC Airbus will have QF tails and a push for a proper endorsement programme will put a $$ value back on the profession. Alleviating some market pressure.

And if a Neil Armstrong from VB sings the praise of a 20 day A320 conversion I will back my argument up with four hull losses.

Easy plane to fly and manage,but the initial full standard Airbus training essential.

[ESSI02]

Light it Up,

For the record, negotiations between turbo-prop committee and the IPC to the level of detail and exclusions to which you refer, never advanced that far. In the many months and meetings that transposed, representations by the IPC were only made on 2 occasions and the air of negotiation displayed at the table was merely at 'messenger' level - a half-hearted attempt to test the water.
As a result, the only formal documentation came from the t/prop committee without challenge or correction from the IPC. "Nothing in it for us" was the ultimate response and where negotiations faltered.

No formal response, acknowledgement or written material was ever forthcoming from the IPC (in my view, quite a deliberate "legally indefensible" spin on proceedings.)

While there was room for further discussion, the attitude of the IPG remained typically separatist, defiant, almost elitist and this is the main point of my reply - the IPG has considered themselves "above the rest" when perhaps they should be a little more reflective on where they are and how they got there.
Not forgetting that the institution of AirConnex, categorically made others in QF employment redundant.

At the time of negotiation, it would have been advantageous for the many and the opportunity for the IPG to acknowledge this fact partially - an olive branch if you will, but instead this attitude further cemented the separation and spoke volumes about where the IPG sees themselves. Perhaps it's actions like these that causes the IPG to be so derided by many in these pages.
Collectively, you have shown no intention to be a part of a larger group or to pursue common goals.

You may win this current battle through devaluation, rather than through legitimate means, fly an Airbus and consider yourselves "the anointed ones" in the eyes of QF management - but be clear on where your peers place you and why they do.


Colonel,

I agree that the "unity" view is idealistic, but IT IS achievable and must start with the current encumbents, that is ALL pilots in QF- employment, to safeguard against the "hordes". While we remain factionalised internally, with no intention of redress, we will always be a target. Be certain that in the "management against flight crew" debate, we are moreso the protaginists than the victims.

There has been a lot of talk about the realisation of commercial reality, conditions everywhere on the downslide, governed by supply and demand. Even with this in mind, it does not remove the option for negotiation between management and their own workforce, before external applicants are even considered and a commercially realistic solution found. However, separate entities within the one organisation, removes the need to even open discussions in the first instance and the battle is won without challenge! The IPG's willingness to "capitulate without debate" is testimony.

Again, I hope that AIPA seizes this opportunity to come off the sidelines and aggressively seek to unite the QFPG.
I have no doubts that this is the only way forward.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

ESS102, I think you would find that one of the real reasons no one wanted intergration with EAA was due to the problems that occured after QF bought Impulse. The carry on from most quarters in the QF regional group has been well documented previously on this forum. Needless to say, what was probably a small but very vocal minority screwed the rest of you. Having talked to mates that fly in EAA, I know for a fact that they were very annoyed by the public conduct of their "professional collegues".

Unfortunately they painted a pretty ordinary picture of the groups. By this I mean EAA, Sunstate and Southern. Remember the CASA complaint by Southern. Brilliant result that must of left egg on so many faces within the Southern group.

Also one of the sticking points was the fact that out of 30 or so redundant pilots on the bottom of the list I think 1 was taken into EAA. So Impulse were required by you to intergrate but it was all a one way street. How does that work?

Contrary to you protesting that there was action from the IPG regarding this issue, I can tell you that it was debated at length for months. The rank and file having the final say. The proposal, that was put forward seemed to be pitched at 5 yr olds. I found the differing seniority systems, how many were there 3 or 4?, to be too messy. Who ever dreamed them up needed to have it explained that no matter how deep within the document you hide this stuff, people who can actuall read will find it!



In short , as has happened before a very vocal minority made it nearly impossible for any other group to want to take you on.

Your previous post only highlited that the correct decision was made.

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

ES,

I didn't necessaritly mean just the QF pilots either, and is not a QF crew slag off.

In reality, QF crews have had a pretty good wicket for years, and I don't care how it compares to United pilots or anyone else, in this country, it is pretty bloody good, despite the odd justified/unjustified gripe.

When you have others wanting a 'part of the action', even if it means for 'less' but still 'more' than what they are accustomed too, QF crews jobs or any other airline job, is a fair target.

In a previous post, someone ran the idea of a 'Pilot's Guild' - which is probably the best idea so far with regard to establishing wilfully or forcefully a pilot collective.

The problem is though, and this is the root of it, that pilots, being generally a bunch of self loving b@stards, are very much about 'my sacrifice, my struggle, my command, my mortgage' especially when they are on a good wicket, and adopt a Marie Antoinette attitude of 'let them eat cake' for the rest of the 'have nots'.

So it is natural that the other pilots, take the same attitude, for less money. (I don't think Pacific Blue or DJ are experiencing a shortage of applicants).

If the 'haves' do nothing about helping or creating a better environment for the 'have nots' well, you had better guard the ramparts.

But it's a bit late for that now, really.